My best friend is turning into a hoarder

[lichen]

I've posted about K and her boyfriend before (the charming fellow that sexually assaulted me and cheated on her). They're still together. She refuses to leave him and he's basically a hoarder and she's become one too. They both have mental health issues but before they were together her apartment was always so nice. Now there are dirty dishes all over the floor, boxes, trash, and who knows what. I don't even want to wash my hands there because the sink is covered in slime. I want to take her by the shoulders and shake her, and tell her to get out. This girl is family, and she's my rock, and it kills me that she is so unhappy but afraid to leave. She's gained so much weight and makes jokes about depression but doesn't want to see a mental health specialist. I know everyone's first instinct is to say "cut her loose!" but I care about her too much. Does anyone have any ideas on how to tactfully approach the whole mess? I want her to see reason. She says she is happy with her boyfriend but by every visible standard it sure doesn't seem true.

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, lichen said:

 I don't even want to wash my hands there because the sink is covered in slime. 

You need to distance yourself. Who she lives with/dates and how they live is abhorrent to you. It's none of your business how they live. Just don't go there.

You also claim this "best friend's" BF assaulted you? How is someone you detest and lives like a pig and whose BF assaulted you "your rock"?

 What advice do you want to hear?  Fix and change them to your taste? Undo the assault? Tell her/her BF how to live? 

Speak to some trusted friends maybe a therapist about all this.

 

[lichen]

Wow, what is wrong with you? I never said I detested her. And she didn't used to "live like a pig." Why the acrimony? 

This person is my best friend. She got me mental health care when I was too sick to fend for myself. I explicitly asked for advice on how to talk to her about this because she is, as you put it, my trusted friend. 

Edit: it's also scary that when presented with a clearly abusive, unhappy situation, your advice is to leave the victim to fend for themselves. 

[Rose Mosse]

I think you need to put yourself above this and deal with the effects and trauma of that sexual assault. Getting closer to the abuser by going through this best friend isn't the way to deal with that. She's refused to leave him but you have a choice for yourself. The assault is blinding you from finding healing and moving past that abhorrent and criminal act.

You had trouble with setting boundaries with this person in 2019.. what has changed? Find healing for yourself. You're trying to save other people but you need to take better care of yourself going forward as you won't be of any help to anyone if you're drowning too. 

If you care about her let her know you're there for her but don't sink with the lot. 

[SooSad33]

Yup, I agree with above....

And you cannot make someone 'better' who does not want to deal with their issue's, so not a lot YOU can do here.

Is up to HER to face her issue's, as is it to remain with this guy.

Unless or until SHE see's the light & wants to deal, she will remain.

So, is up to YOU to just accept as is.

If you really want to reach out in a different manner, you can offer your assistance with 'offering' to help her clean up a bit around there.. - BUT, if they are true hoarders, she may not agree. Either being protective or in 'denial'... Sadly, not much other's can do unless they reach out for help.

 

 

[lichen]

Would it be worth it to even tell her how I feel?

[DancingFool]

15 minutes ago, lichen said:

Would it be worth it to even tell her how I feel?

No, the more you talk against her relationship, the more you'll push her away from you and into his arms.

I am speaking from life experience here. It's incredibly hard to see your bestie get involved in a toxic relationship. However, the more you push to make her see sense, the further you'll fracture your friendship and make it impossible for her to reach out to you even if she wants to or absolutely needs to eventually.

The best that you can do is stand by. Be her friend and let her know that no matter what, you are there for her without judgment. 

I bit my tongue until it blead and the only thing I ever said to my friend was that if she ever needs help, she can call me any time and I will come get her, no comments, no questions asked. Otherwise I would just avoid talking about her relationship and pretty much would turn the topic to anything else.  I didn't want to be her crutch and a place to vent so she can keep going back to the abuser and also because I really couldn't handle hearing about it.

Eventually I did get that call and by then I was the only person left she could call. I'm glad I stuck it out and was there when she needed it and helped her get out. 

The problem with these kinds of toxic relationships is that she needs to see for herself that it's not working out and choose to leave. You can't make her and the more you talk, the more you'll just push her away. After she left her abuser, our friendship pretty much ended. Not by her, but rather by me. It took way too much out of me to stand by her like that. Again, I'm glad that I did, but I'd never want to do it again. It's draining to say the least. At some point you realize that your friend is also toxic in her own way and chose what she did for her own reasons and once you see that, you can't go back. I prefer healthy people around me.

[SooSad33]

If she is a really great friend, then it'd be worth a try.. to let her know your feelings about the ordeal and just that you're concerned for her.

Often, ppl like this are sensitive & aware of their issue's.. but it may be good, at least from your end, for her to know you are concerned BUT thinking of her best interest - and willing to be there & help her out. ( In regards to everything - I mean in the sense of 'helping' her around the place, IF she'll accept it), 

I have a friend also a hoarder.. they had inspection due.. so she DID accept myself & another friend to come help bag stuff, organize etc one afternoon.. She knows how she is...

[Seraphim]

Let me tell you, my mom for the vast part of 30 years tried to cajole and talk and “ love” my dad out of his mental illness. Never ,ever happened. This is something people need to do for themselves. Some people also will NEVER do it , like my father. You can talk until you are blue in the face . Unless SHE wants to change her life it won’t happen. That impetus comes from inside the person themselves. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, lichen said:

She got me mental health care when I was too sick to fend for myself.

Ok, talk to your therapist about the wisdom of staying best friends with someone whose BF assaulted you. Or trying to talk to her about her living conditions or this BF.

[Pleasedonot5]

Hey, OP. Sorry you are going through this. 

As a side-bar, I question how much of a "friend" this person is. Sure, she's been there for you in the past, but she is dating someone who she knows sexually assaulted you. That is not a friendly move. No real friend would knowingly date your assailant. 

Assuming that you still want to be friends with her, let's get to your question. I did not see in your original post that you have actually expressed your concerns to her. Simply call her up and talk to her, OP. My experiences dealing with friends going through problems tell me that candid and direct is best.

Example: "Hey, [friend]. I hope you'll allow me to be candid for your benefit. As your friend, I just wanted to let you know that I'm worried about you. I've noticed that lately it seems like you have not been taking care of yourself and you seem to be slipping into a depression. Here is why I think so: [XYZ]. Is everything okay? Can I help you with your situation in any way?"

The above might seem uncomfortable but you aren't going to solve the matter by beating around the bush. If she reacts negatively - well, remember that she selected this guy (who is ostensibly dragging her down) in the first place, knowing that he had assaulted you. She has to make the choice to help herself. If you are candid with her, at least you tried.

Hope this helps.

[lichen]

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate your replies. I guess I have been in denial about a lot of things. Yes, she is incredibly damaged and she has been an incredibly supportive friend in other ways. But choosing to stay with a man who hurt me can be a deal breaker. I don't want it to be but I clearly have issues valuing my own feelings. And I can't save everyone. Which I already knew but still have a hard time accepting. 

[Seraphim]

1 minute ago, lichen said:

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate your replies. I guess I have been in denial about a lot of things. Yes, she is incredibly damaged and she has been an incredibly supportive friend in other ways. But choosing to stay with a man who hurt me can be a deal breaker. I don't want it to be but I clearly have issues valuing my own feelings. And I can't save everyone. Which I already knew but still have a hard time accepting. 

I can totally understand that . We didn’t want to give up on my dad but at some time self preservation and self esteem have to kick in. I know you want to “ save “ her but really you can’t . 

[lichen]

My brother killed himself last year and she stayed with me for several weeks when I was in mourning. I was hoping she would at least consider mental health services after what she saw me go through with him (he stopped seeing his doctor).

[Seraphim]

2 minutes ago, lichen said:

My brother killed himself last year and she stayed with me for several weeks when I was in mourning. I was hoping she would at least consider mental health services after what she saw me go through with him (he stopped seeing his doctor).

I am so very sorry for your loss. 
 

Helping a friend and helping one’s self are so different. I endlessly helped others but I was doing it to avoid my own pain. I helped myself 9 years ago when I had a nervous breakdown and it became imperative. 

[Batya33]

So given the state of things I wouldn’t offer to help clean up.  I would offer to help her find the appropriate person or service who specializes in this sort of clean up - not a typical house cleaner. I’d tell her you’re available to help her find mental health resources.  And … that’s it.  

Let her know this and the rest is up to her.  I have a friend whose mental health has taken a very concerning turn.  What I did- we’re long distance friends - ascertained who knows about her condition, and once I knew her husband and sibling are in the know about what’s going on - and likely her daughter- I decided that telling  her my concerns wouldn’t help.  
She firmly believes what she believes and if I doubt her I’ll be yet another one of the growing group of people who have and she’ll cut me off completely.  This way I am there - although she’s been reaching out less - and I know she’s not isolated.
 Those are my personal boundaries.  I’m very tempted to talk to her sibling but know it will get back to her and that wouldn’t be good.

 I share this because it’s complicated and takes blunt self honesty plus sort of detective work to figure out what the cirremt resources are and whether there’s a role for you to productively contribute.  Good luck. I’m sorry. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, lichen said:

My brother killed himself last year and she stayed with me for several weeks when I was in mourning. 

Sorry to hear this. Hopefully you have some grief counselling. My advice is to take care of yourself first. Try not to redirect grief and loss to anything else.

This loss is extremely difficult and another loss could be why you are trying to  hang on and fix this.

 Do nothing. Say nothing. Go about your life and surround yourself with positive people and supportive people.

[Capricorn3]

4 hours ago, Rose Mosse said:

I think you need to put yourself above this and deal with the effects and trauma of that sexual assault. Getting closer to the abuser by going through this best friend isn't the way to deal with that. She's refused to leave him but you have a choice for yourself. The assault is blinding you from finding healing and moving past that abhorrent and criminal act.

You had trouble with setting boundaries with this person in 2019.. what has changed? Find healing for yourself. You're trying to save other people but you need to take better care of yourself going forward as you won't be of any help to anyone if you're drowning too. 

If you care about her let her know you're there for her but don't sink with the lot. 

^ I second this entire post.  OP, you should be looking into healing yourself first.  You can't help others when you yourself are still in a mentally bad place.  All that time and energy you are putting into worrying about her and her situation would be far more beneficial to YOU in seeking therapy and healing for yourself.  Time to look after yourself first.

[Cherylyn]

I'm very sorry for your sexual assault and your friend's boyfriend cheating on her. 😰

With all due respect, even though you care for your friend, it's best for you not to get involved with her life, her lifestyle with her boyfriend and how she conducts her personal health.  I know you mean well.  However, let your friend and her boyfriend live their own lives because it's their choice.  Stay out of it.

If your friend's health continues to decline due to weight gain and poor health and if their household is in squalor, that's their problem and their responsibility, not yours.

Bite your tongue and look the other way.

When you visit, use your own hand sanitizer or meet elsewhere such as a public place, park, restaurant or a neutral location.

"To argue with a person who has renounced reason is like administering medicine to the dead." ~ Thomas Paine.   In other words, it's an effort in futility so don't even bother otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time and your energy.

I don't agree with several people in my life.  I don't like their decisions and how they live their lives.  I don't agree with their warped philosophies and senseless outcomes.  However, I keep my mouth shut because it's none of my business.  I simply practice good diplomacy, enforce healthy, strong boundaries, I'm well-mannered and polite towards them yet maintain a very respectful, deliberate, safe distance.  I suggest you do the same because it keeps the peace for all.  

Don't meddle.  Stay in your lane.

[Cherylyn]

3 hours ago, lichen said:

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate your replies. I guess I have been in denial about a lot of things. Yes, she is incredibly damaged and she has been an incredibly supportive friend in other ways. But choosing to stay with a man who hurt me can be a deal breaker. I don't want it to be but I clearly have issues valuing my own feelings. And I can't save everyone. Which I already knew but still have a hard time accepting. 

I hear you.  I too have a hard time accepting how other people live.  In the past, I've tried to "fix" other people's lives and their predicament.  (Sloppy houses, alcoholics, bad marriages, the heartbroken, poor choices in partners, wounded children, etc.)  I've always thought it was my moral duty to be in "hero mode."  All it did was get myself into trouble, caused my undue stress and my initial "caring" sorely backfired. 

Keep in mind, eventually people don't appreciate meddlesome behavior even though you meant well.  Many times, fights ensue and you'll end up defending and clearing your name despite your sincere intentions.  Then you'll feel bitter and resentful just as I was.  I no longer try to save people anymore.  They're full grown adults and responsible for their own lives.  If their outcomes are disastrous, that's their fault and their responsibility.  They need to figure out how to survive.  I've got nothing to do with it. 

Learn to enforce boundaries for yourself.  You can still be kind without getting involved with their personal lives.  Whatever they do is their own doing.  You don't have to like it but you have to grudgingly accept that this is how life is.  It's a sobering reality check. 

Once upon a time, I was you.  Nowadays, I concentrate and focus on my own life, health, taking care of my immediate family and household.  Set your priorities straight. 

[Tinydance]

I agree with the others that I don't think you can really do anything about your friend's way of life or who she chooses to be in a relationship with. The fact that she's dating someone who assaulted you though is completely unacceptable. That doesn't sound like a true friend to me. I think more so based on the assault you would be better off to end the friendship. Maybe the hoarding doesn't really warrant cutting her off but the assault actually does.