Should you verbalize last chances.

[Unreasonable]

So if you've been following my story, you know that I've been emotionally cheated on multiple times in my marriage. The last time was a couple years ago. I really, really want to get over this, and put this behind me, but I'm having a hard time. I fully understand that by not divorcing her by now, that is de facto permission to cheat again, as she will surely believe that I will never leave her over this. This time, however, is different. Unlike before, I am seeing a pattern to the whole thing. I can even predict how long it is likely to take before she does it again. Probably 3 years from now or less. I can't say how I will feel in 3 years, but at this very moment I am very certain that if she does it again I will divorce her. I'm not getting any younger, and neither is she, and I'm too old for this s___. (I'm in my mid-fourties).

 

Do you think I should just file this factoid away in the back of my mind, hope I'm wrong, and move on? Or should I point blank tell her one more time, ever, and we're done?

[Seraphim]

My brother when he found out he was cheated on a second time he got out. He was done. He said he could forgive once, but twice , no.

 

If you've done this a few times she's not going to change next time just be done with it .

[Unreasonable]

My brother when he found out he was cheated on a second time he got out. He was done. He said he could forgive once, but twice , no.

 

If you've done this a few times she's not going to change next time just be done with it .

 

Well, I don't know I like saying I plan on it, because I hope it doesn't happen. My question though is if telling her explictly that it's over if it happens again productive, or counter-productive? I am wondering if it is less likely to scare her straight, and more likely to make her feel hopeless and demoralized.

[Jvi]

Wow this sounds unhealthy man. Why didn't you start the process the last time it happened? You could have been doing your own thing by now and dating women that value you more.

 

What's stopping you?

[Seraphim]

Well, I don't know I like saying I plan on it, because I hope it doesn't happen. My question though is if telling her explictly that it's over if it happens again productive, or counter-productive? I am wondering if it is less likely to scare her straight, and more likely to make her feel hopeless and demoralized.

Well, since you let it slide I would wait and see if it happens then deal with it.

[Unreasonable]

Wow this sounds unhealthy man. Why didn't you start the process the last time it happened? You could have been doing your own thing by now and dating women that value you more.

 

What's stopping you?

 

Well, a LOT of logistical and practical reasons of course, loyalty (see has suffered her way though WAY tougher issues than this imo and I feel I owe her), and love.

[Seraphim]

Absolutely would be difficult to throw away a multi-decade marriage and the havoc and upheaval it would cause kids but I wouldn't let this slide forever .

[rosephase]

Well, a LOT of logistical and practical reasons of course, loyalty (see has suffered her way though WAY tougher issues than this imo and I feel I owe her), and love.

 

But you know you can't trust her. You are counting down the time until she hurts you again.

 

You can't be in a relationship that is structured that way. It will hurt you both. Are you in therapy? What is she doing to help heal the hurt between you? What steps are you taking together so it won't happen again? How is she earning back trust? How is she working on herself to prevent this from happening again?

[Unreasonable]

But you know you can't trust her. You are counting down the time until she hurts you again.

 

You can't be in a relationship that is structured that way. It will hurt you both. Are you in therapy? What is she doing to help heal the hurt between you? What steps are you taking together so it won't happen again? How is she earning back trust? How is she working on herself to prevent this from happening again?

 

We did couple's counselling. She had completely checked out by then and having an existential crisis but didn't give me the memo. It was only by being on this forum that I was able to tell something was wrong, otherwise we'd be done for sure. I cannot say her reasons for checking out we're completely invalid. We went to a few sessions but hit a point of diminishing returns. At the time I was scrambling to keep the marriage from falling apart. Trusting her wasn't even close to my top priority at the time. I was in full firefighter mode. It was only after the fires were out, and after she cut out the guy and agreed to give us a go that the issue of trust started coming to the forefront for me. It's pretty hard to push the trust issue immediately when the other person has one foot out the door.

 

What has she done? Well, she promised me she'd come to me next time these feelings come about so we could work on it. I'd like to think she'd do that but I don't know. We also agreed not to private message people of the opposite sex for anything other than logistical purposes. She said that's harder for her because she's "very social" (she requires a lot of attention - one could describe her as "high maintenance"). She has expanded her circle of friends so that I am not the center of her universe (she was a stay at home mom with no life for a long time before she rejoined the workforce recently). She has also, I believe, apologized sincerely. I have, in turn, have done everything in my power not to neglect her and make her feel valued and validated. She has acknowledged that I've changed.

 

I don't know. The previous times this happened I didn't see the pattern, and I "got over it" quite quickly. Here though we've been reconciling over a year now and it still eats at me. I'm quite certain nothing is going on now, and my "dissatisfaction radar" (finely honed by this forum and several books) is set to maximum and I don't sense any discontent on her part. I just feel like I'm stagnating now, not really being able to move forward for fear of being hurt again.

[Honeycomb8]

How many times has this happened? How many guys.

 

The ones u knew about.

 

We teach people how to treat us.

 

Once can be forgiven. Twice I simply can't. Any more and you're just kidding yourself.

This is such a waste of ur time.

You could be happy and feeling so much more secure in 2 years, or be in the middle of yet another betrayal.

You choose.

[Unreasonable]

How many times has this happened? How many guys.

 

The ones u knew about.

 

We teach people how to treat us.

 

Once can be forgiven. Twice I simply can't. Any more and you're just kidding yourself.

This is such a waste of ur time.

You could be happy and feeling so much more secure in 2 years, or be in the middle of yet another betrayal.

You choose.

 

It doesn't matter how many times really, what is "enough" is variable from person to person. For me, it will be the last time, plus one more should that ever happen. I will say we have been married for 23 years, have 4 kids, and I stand to lose a LOT in a divorce so I'm not going to make this decision lightly. Also she's been through hell and back for me, and done more, I think, than a vast majority of people would be able to endure for me. She was there like a freakin champ when it counted the most and I was at my most vulnerable. What that was doesn't matter either (I will say it had nothing to do with infidelity).

 

In fact, had I known I would be facing this uncertainty a year later, the kind thing to do, what I owed her, would have been to let her go free. But I didn't. I did the complete opposite, and now she's attached to me again and leaving her now would be really cruel. I need to find a way to break through because really there is no other option as far as I am concerned right now (yes, I'm sure I will be reminded there are "always options", but not any that are acceptable to me).

[journeynow]

The last time was a couple years ago. I really, really want to get over this, and put this behind me, but I'm having a hard time. I fully understand that by not divorcing her by now, that is de facto permission to cheat again, as she will surely believe that I will never leave her over this. This time, however, is different. Unlike before, I am seeing a pattern to the whole thing. I can even predict how long it is likely to take before she does it again. Probably 3 years from now or less.

 

You have important information to work with in the here and now, and that is that You do not trust her, period.

 

So, instead of revisiting the past or predicting the future, what do you want to do with this information in the here and now? What is your NEXT best step toward being who you want to be? I don't think it is a matter of warning her, but knowing yourself well enough now to decide if you want to be with someone you don't trust. If you want to rebuild trust, how do you want to go about it, and how long will you give it before deciding to call it a day? You get to decide these things for yourself in a case like this. IMHO.

[JaggerJim]

I don't think an ultimatum will work, you've gone too far down the forgiveness track. You should just leave if she does it again, because the last 2 times she got caught, should have taught her some life lessons.

[Pleasedonot5]

What do you mean by emotional cheating?

[Lester]

Where/when did you post about your marriage? (3000 posts makes it hard to find)

[Unreasonable]

What do you mean by emotional cheating?

 

Where/when did you post about your marriage?

 

So it's happened twice since I joined this forum, once in 2010:

 

 

 

The other I can't find, I don't know if I shared the "whole" story, but I found out about it near the end of 2015.

 

Long story short on that one, she met a married co-worker of mine at an office party, facebook friended him, and it escalated from there. I know they talked about innapropriate stuff, and she sent him nudes. She claims they never had sex, and I have no proof. I found out about it (she was scarcely hiding it) and found out she had one foot out the door (not to be with this guy, just out). That's when the firefighting/counselling happened. VERY awkward for me, as I had to work with this guy for a half a year after that.

 

Shortly after starting the reconciliation process, I found out she had purchased a couple books on polyamory at the recommendation of a male polyamorist acquaintance of ours from a previous place we both worked. I don't know what happened between them other than them chatting a lot, about philosophical stuff and about our marriage. I think he was grooming her to be honest, trying to get her to open our marriage. She was "just curious". I was like hell to the NO. You want that and I'll grant you a divorce RIGHT NOW. She agreed that wouldn't work out for us and we didn't discuss it much further. I think she was concerned that from one man wasn't going to be enough for her and how to deal with that ethically and honestly. Needless to say, she doesn't talk to that guy anymore either.

 

So, it's been nearly 2 years since the last incident. I still haven't gotten over it, and, while I trust that nothing is going now, it is more of a trust snapshot of right now. Not that I don't think it will never happen again. It seems to me it happens in 5 year intervals. I believe that is partly my issue as I have been inattentive at times. I've worked on that a lot and I don't think that will be a problem on my end again.

 

So, instead of revisiting the past or predicting the future, what do you want to do with this information in the here and now? What is your NEXT best step toward being who you want to be? I don't think it is a matter of warning her, but knowing yourself well enough now to decide if you want to be with someone you don't trust. If you want to rebuild trust, how do you want to go about it, and how long will you give it before deciding to call it a day? You get to decide these things for yourself in a case like this. IMHO.

 

Good question. I really don't know what else I can do. Even if I got her to swear an oath that it will never happen again, I think that would be telling me what I wanted to hear. I am quite certain I am out if it happens again. But that needs to be tucked back in the back of my mind and dormant if I'm going to get through this. I can't be in a "waiting for it" mode.

[Liraele]

It has ever been my experience that people don't deal well with ultimatums...and saying "One more time, I'm out" feels like an ultimatum. I think you're right in keeping that thought/feeling to yourself, for a few reasons.

 

1.) It could happen, and you could change your mind and stay (again.) Thus reiterating to her (again) that it's OK and undermining your word.

2.) It could make her more careful, if she's determined to hang on to you but also determined to stray. Being more careful is not the same thing as not cheating; it just means she may try harder to keep it a secret.

3.) It may cause her to feel she can't be herself, and if she can't be herself...neither of you will be happy.

 

I'm sorry you've dealt with this, and commend you for being willing to work through it more than once. It hurts a whole lot to be cheated on (physically or emotionally) and feeling like it's going to happen again or it's inevitable that it'll happen again is no picnic either.

 

I will say that if, after you've given yourself some time to mull over this and still feel a major disconnect, you should definitely reevaluate what you think is best for you...and that may be leaving, even without an inciting event.

[LaHermes]

Isn't this really at the heart of the matter, UnR?

 

" I will say we have been married for 23 years, have 4 kids, and I stand to lose a LOT in a divorce so I'm not going to make this decision lightly. "

 

You remarked elsewhere on the logistical and practical fallout.......

[DancingFool]

Maybe instead of contemplating ultimatums you should be asking how you can both improve your marriage and your relationship, your connection, how you can keep it fresh and interesting so that the desire to end things isn't there.

 

What caught my eye is you saying that you worked hard at making sure that she is attached to you again....how? Financially? Emotionally? How? What does that mean? If you are talking about finances, then frankly there is your source of her resentment and infidelity. When you try to tie someone down to you through controlling and manipulative means, it will ALWAYS end up backfiring on you. Granted, I'm not saying that this is your particular situation as there is not enough information here. I'm simply saying that this could be one of the sources of your problems and something to think about IF it applies in any way.

 

Other than that, if the only thing that binds the two of you is 4 children and assets and finances, then perhaps opening the marriage up is not such a bad idea for the both of you. Meaning your marriage is already dead and all that's really left are life practicalities so you might as well quit torturing each other demanding fidelity in a dead marriage.

[Unreasonable]

Isn't this really at the heart of the matter, UnR?

 

" I will say we have been married for 23 years, have 4 kids, and I stand to lose a LOT in a divorce so I'm not going to make this decision lightly. "

 

You remarked elsewhere on the logistical and practical fallout.......

 

I wouldn't say it was the heart of it. She said she'd leave and not take a thing or the kids, and I didn't take her up on it. To be honest, co-dependency is probably the heart of it. For realz tho, I really don't think I could take it again.

 

But yeah, I've come to the conclusion that I shouldn't beat her over the head with a last chance speech at this point. I guess that's what I was looking for.

[LaHermes]

OP:

 

She said she'd leave and not take a thing or the kids,

 

so, just intrigued, why then say you stand to lose "a LOT" in the divorce....

[Honeycomb8]

Wow...Read your post up there and the previous old post.

She's too far gone.

 

She's never going to change because this is really who she is. I don't know if I would stay. This is way too much uneasiness, paranoia, disrespect for you. I'm surprised this hasn't manifested in a serious illness for you. Not being patronising, people tend to get illnesses under extreme stress.

[Lester]

"Do you think I should just file this factoid away in the back of my mind, hope I'm wrong, and move on?"

- You may be right or you may be wrong. But it really doesn't matter anyway.

 

"Or should I point blank tell her one more time, ever, and we're done?"

- No, never! The less you tell her the better.

 

Secretly purchase James Dobson's "Love must be Tough"

This is your first step. You must understand the cheating mind.

 

Next, Secretly purchase Gary Smalley's "If only he knew"

He will teach you about women, and what might have been the reason this all started in the first place. (Two broad groups of cheaters, predisposed and accidental.)

 

-----

You will never get it out of your mind. That's normal.

You can never change her, or for that matter, anyone.

You can change yourself.

Doing so, the world will change around you.

She may or may not fit into that world.

 

First Aid:

Read and learn!

[ShatteredMan]

^Lester has good advice. I'm so glad he suggested the Gary Smalley book to me some time ago. Please read it!

[Unreasonable]

so, just intrigued, why then say you stand to lose "a LOT" in the divorce....

Because when attorneys get in the picture, all bets are off.

Wow...Read your post up there and the previous old post.

She's too far gone.

You may be right, but I hope you're wrong. I will say our circumstances have changed considerably since the 2010 post. Time will tell I suppose.

Secretly purchase James Dobson's "Love must be Tough"

This is your first step. You must understand the cheating mind.

 

Next, Secretly purchase Gary Smalley's "If only he knew"

He will teach you about women, and what might have been the reason this all started in the first place. (Two broad groups of cheaters, predisposed and accidental.)

Already read the Dobson book a while ago. There's some good stuff in there, and also some stuff I consider a bit manipulative. Also I'm not religious, which is a running theme in there so some of that isn't going to work. I will give it some credit for my firefighting skills.

 

I'll check the Smalley one out, and I've read other books on the psychology of cheaters. It's how I was able to ascertain the problem in the first place.