Is He Being a Good Friend or Attempting to Seduce Me?

[cola lee]

your friend is a very good man,you say your relationship with him have already about 4 years,but the degree about you just is kissing,the man must full of responsible

[Naomi99]

I'm working on a deadline right now but can't resist posting!

 

I love ALL of the advice that you have, every one has something different to say, yet there's some facet that each one of you contribute that applies to me in some way.

 

I'm dying to respond to each and every one of you, which I will when this deadline expires, but for now I want to say something about paying/going dutch, because it seems to weigh heavily in some of the posts here.

 

I spent some time with him yesterday observing him with not my eyes, but through the eyes of the ENA women I respect. I've realized he is a generous person. Whether or not he is interested in a girl, he will always fight for the tab. Even if there is another male around, he will fight for it. Observing this last night tells me that picking up the tab is not a barometer to be used in his romantic interest for whoever he's with.

 

Another I learned last night (because I met a ton of his friends). A great percentage of the seats he gets at the opera house/symphony are through patients. They comp him +1, and I have no idea who his +1 was before me. The same goes true for bars/restaurants he's taken me to. One time I got there earlier than he, and the server goes "Are you with Dr. XXX tonight?" and I said yes, and now I realize he has his own tab because the owner of the place has been a long-time patient. I think he is a firm believer in you get what you give, thus his charity and volunteer work and the rock star treatment at these establishments.

 

So is he really paying out-of-pocket for me? Technically, no, but yes in a sense because he's sharing his treats with me that are "gifted" from his patients. I'm very very lucky and thankful to be able to enjoy what he's worked so hard for, and that he's generous to share. I'm very fortunate and spoiled.

 

This will not stop me from stating "Please let me pay for myself," each and every time, but I won't say it more than once or twice. It's terrible to be fighting a man in a restaurant and almost emasculates him, esp. if the patrons know who he is.

[Naomi99]

I'd like to think that someone who senses they are on the upper hand of an imbalance not exploit that dynamic.

 

There are people in this world who are "blameless" because they just haven't done the wrong thing. Then there are people who go so far as to actually do the right thing. I'd rather shoot for being/being around the latter folk.

 

This is why I like you so much. Classy. It's very rare for people to have this viewpoint. I understand why I should lessen the frequency with Doc2 even if he is offering…but also remember all of this has just taken place within the last couple of weeks. Last week when he made the Europe statement was what made me come running here.

 

There was something you said in my other thread about the doctor (the selfish one). Because the person loves you more than you love them doesn't make you less responsible for their heart, but even more so?? Was that it? Kind of along the same belief.

 

Striving to do the right thing even if it may seem inconvenient at the time.

 

xoxo

[Naomi99]

It just occurred to me. Maybe he was fighting with the other guy over the tab to impress me and really isn't as generous as I thought?

 

Christ, I really need to develop my intuition. I'm so skeptical.

 

Okay, back to work.

[reinventmyself]

I just know for me, if I sense a man is being generous with his time, money and attention with the possible expectation of something romantic and I for one am not on the same page, I am not comfortable allowing him to do so.

If you have the sense that this may be the case, then you by default are encouraging the dynamic in some way. . like it or not.

 

To say the onus is totally on him I don't think is fair.

 

Does he have the personal responsibility to protect his own emotions? Absolutely!

 

But he may be reading into your actions as something more than what it is, so yes, it makes you responsible too.

[LoveSoDeep]

Just because he's not paying doesn't mean it's not valuable to him. He could take anyone to those places and he has chosen you (as of late) this is generous but it also shows that he wants to spend time with you.

 

I also agree fighting with a man over the bill in front of others can be emasculating. So instead make this gesture privately before you arrive or while setting up the activity via phone or text. Even if it's a freebie you can say "You are always so generous and I appreciate that so much! I'll go but only if you let me get XX next time." And XX could be a round of drinks or dessert or the tip whatever makes it seem fair to you. Then when the time comes for you to pay do it discreetly. I think that shows him you are not ready for this to move into romantic relationship territory without hurting anyone's feelings.

[ThatwasThen]

But he may be reading into your actions as something more than what it is, so yes, it makes you responsible too.

First some tried to make Naomi the victim, now they are trying to paint Doc2 as a Victim. He is not a victim. He is indeed responsible for his own well being and until he actually makes the effort to change their dynamic then I say Naomi is not responsible for his actions. Naomi volunteered to be Doc1's casual sexual partner wherein he compartmentalized her as such. She did the strong thing and asked where he stood, he was honest and she made a decision.

 

Doc2 is free and generous with his comps and his own money not only with Naomi but also with his other friends as per Naomi's post above so that portion of his interaction with her is not an indication that he wants more then friendship of the platonic kind with her.

 

If anything all she owes him at this time is to do one of two things IMO:

 

 

So: What is the right thing to do when there is no indication that anything between the two of them has changed except that he's suggested they do Europe? She can only offer to pay and then it's on him after that.

 

Adding: The suggestion above to offer to treat next time and do so discreetly is a good way to get around his insistence while at the same time reciprocating. I don't think it indicates whether or not you are interested in more then just a companion though.

[Naomi99]

Victim mentality. He is not a victim. He is indeed responsible for his own well being and until he actually makes the effort to change their dynamic then I say Naomi is not responsible for his actions.

 

I agree with this, but I have a soft spot in my heart for him. He (possibly being in love with me) has a more vulnerable heart than I do, and I do not want to rape and pillage his kindness until I am sure of my own intentions.

 

He just texted me confirming BB game tomorrow night. I am going to politely decline.

[ThatwasThen]

I agree with this, but I have a soft spot in my heart for him. He (possibly being in love with me) has a more vulnerable heart than I do, and I do not want to rape and pillage his kindness until I am sure of my own intentions.

 

He just texted me confirming BB game tomorrow night. I am going to politely decline.

But you already agreed to go. No? Why would you decline THAT invite? I suggest you decline some things yet to be invitationed to instead of leaving him in a lurch and disappointing him. That's one thing that friends don't do to their friends unless it's an emergency.

[Naomi99]

. Naomi volunteered to be Doc1's casual sexual partner wherein he compartmentalized her as such. She did the strong thing and asked where he stood, he was honest and she made a decision.

 

I don't want to be Doc2's Doc1. (Does that sentence even make sense)?

 

First, I think I might be stronger than Doc2 because of what happened to me with Doc1. Doc2 has told me his divorce was extremely painful and she wanted alimony, which he fought against for years. I don't want to place him in a situation where he might feel used by me in the slightest sense because I actually care about him. Esp. if he's just done healing with his traumatizing divorce, I don't want to be the one woman to place him back at square one when I'm not sure if I like him romantically or not.

[Naomi99]

But you already agreed to go. No? Why would you decline THAT invite? I suggest you decline some things yet to be invitationed to instead of leaving him in a lurch and disappointing him. That's one thing that friends don't do to their friends unless it's an emergency.

 

I just saw him last night. Tomorrow is too damned soon.

 

Plus I told myself I can attend BB game tomorrow or show on Friday. One or the other, not both. So I chose Friday.

 

Trying to look at the bigger picture here. It's more important to spare his feelings and let the ticket go than to use the ticket and pump him full of Naomi essence.

[ThatwasThen]

I don't want to be Doc2's Doc1. (Does that sentence even make sense)?

Yes it does but you don't even frigging know if he likes you more then a friend. You're going on assumptions and speculation from many here that think just because he stepped up his invites that he's priming you. If you want to know for sure then question his motives for stepping them up.

 

First, I think I might be stronger than Doc2 because of what happened to me with Doc1. Doc2 has told me his divorce was extremely painful and she wanted alimony, which he fought against for years. I don't want to place him in a situation where he might feel used by me in the slightest sense because I actually care about him.

So are you going to caretake him through life? Surely the man is smart enough to have learned a lesson. If he hasn't then as a friend maybe you ought to tell him that being an over achieving nice guy isn't in his best interests because there are women out there that will take advantage of such things and Gold Dig is *** right out of the ball park.

 

Esp. if he's just done healing with his traumatizing divorce, I don't want to be the one woman to place him back at square one when I'm not sure if I like him romantically or not.

Your not sure if he likes you romantically or not as well. Either ask him (putting it on you again) or dial it back and be silent. That's all there is to do.

[ThatwasThen]

Naomi Essence. lolzzzz. Yes, indeed.

[tiredofvampires]

There was something you said in my other thread about the doctor (the selfish one). Because the person loves you more than you love them doesn't make you less responsible for their heart, but even more so?? Was that it? Kind of along the same belief.

 

I don't remember my exact reference there, but the way I feel about it is that we are all ultimately responsible for our own emotional life. We are responsible for protecting ourselves from people who might prey on us, and standing up for ourselves. We are responsible for finding a way to experience happiness. We have to cultivate a spirit of self-reliance in the final analysis, even if there are people we also take chances on to trust and depend on. We are responsible for how we handle adversity and the blows life throws our way. We are responsible for taking risks that are worth taking for love and other forms of fulfillment, for our choices both good and bad, and then handling whatever consequences come with those risks. So there has to be that underlining sense of self-accountability -- otherwise, we'd be living a life that puts all our power in the hands of everyone else.

 

But having said that, that does not imply we take no accountability for how we treat others. It may sound like a contradiction, and maybe paternalistic, but I think it's neither. I'm not exactly saying we are here to save people from themselves, but I'm also saying that we ought to have checks and balances on our own-self interest that we are vigilant about. Very simply, we should strive to treat others as we'd like to be treated. So what that means is that if we would not like to be taken advantage of when we are at our most vulnerable, and we would not want someone who knows full-well that we are vulnerable to capitalize on that -- we should avoid that kind of behavior ourselves.

 

So that's a long way around the answer, but yes, we are responsible for how we handle another person's heart. And if we are aware that we can cause undue hurt, yes, there is some onus on us to line up with how best to avoid that. The other person is still responsible for themselves, but we have the ability to cause more hurt/damage or less hurt/damage, and that's not a faculty we ought to be abdicating from.

 

It's easy to talk about but very hard to implement in real situations, because there are SO many grey lines and fuzzy boundaries around all this. Being upfront with someone about your intentions and where you stand so they are not mislead and they can make informed decisions, is obviously imperative. How much you then are responsible for is a murkier area as it plays out in any given situation and what is agreed upon by each party explicitly, but I would say that if you use honesty as a way to totally abdicate how your actions impact someone else, you've given yourself a lot more license than I am in favor of. We all know that explicit agreements are only the tip of the iceberg in relationships. The implicit agreements/expectations or lack thereof is where all the trouble and heartache comes in. Those can't just be waved off as irrelevant.

 

I don't think treating other people's hearts carelessly is ever defensible. Again, it would be almost impossible to define some hard-and-fast rule of what that would look like in any given situation, but I think there's some universal "line" that anyone who holds these values will know, if and when they've crossed it. You just know when you're doing something that is so self-serving, it has eclipsed your ethical standards and how you'd like to be treated if the shoe were on the other foot, even if no one has been lied to.

 

What is comes down to is empathy. Like, you know what unrequited love feels like. You know the feeling of unreciprocity, of false hope, of wishful thinking, of anticipation. And so you can feel that in someone else when it's creeping in, and you know you're on the other side of that fence; so then you do and say the things that would make YOU feel the most respected in that case.

[boltnrun]

I agree that it is a choice we need to make, whether or not to take what someone offers us even if we suspect their motivations are to woo us or otherwise try to convince us to like them more.

 

I tell my son, just because a girl is willing to allow you to take advantage of her by using her for casual sex, it's up to you to be the better person and say no, thanks.

 

I realize that is not the same situation at all. But in my case (I have a male friend who has made it clear he'd like to date me), I stopped spending one on one time with him because even though I made it very clear I have friendly feelings toward him rather than romantic, I care enough about him to realize spending time with him gave him false hope. I'll see him in a group setting but never again just he and I going somewhere together or hanging at his house.

 

Again, not the same since Doc 2 has not declared romantic intentions. But still...cutting down on date-like behavior might not be a bad idea. In fact, I suggested before stopping altogether so you, Naomi, can evaluate your feelings for him.

[ThatwasThen]

So what is it, Naomi. Do you feel all that "creeping in" in him? Or are you and he just doing what friends do and he happens to be overly-generous (perhaps foolishly so given his marriage history)?

[tiredofvampires]

I have been in situations where I wished a friendship could be more than platonic, and the reverse has also happened. And yet, it continued, because in those cases, we were able to get past the feelings of "wanting" well enough to enjoy the other benefits of the friendship. I think a lot of relationships may look like this (whether hetero opposite sex or gay) -- there is some imbalance of feeling, but it's still workable because both parties either recognize it and work around it (and the person who feels the "romantic" feelings is able to compartmentalize well), or those feelings are quietly tempered by the person who feels the romantic feelings so it doesn't overwhelm the overall friendship.

 

So I think it's possible for these imbalances to exist and not utterly doom a relationship, but it's rather more the exception than the rule, and both people have to be pretty mature, basically emotionally stable within themselves, and self-aware. It has to be a sustainable arrangement, where one party isn't trying to escalate, or hoping to, or otherwise closing off their other romantic options.

 

 

But Naomi -- is this doctor right now still freshly recovering from a divorce?

[LC8328]

Very well said. This should be an article here on ENA.

[Naomi99]

doubly post

[Naomi99]

I think it is going on six years with the process lasting two or so years.

 

Wow. I said I couldn't make it to game tomorrow. He texts back a few hours later asking me to go hiking then dinner with his brother at this new restaurant I really really really been wanting to go to. I have not responded. Sitting in meeting all afternoon.

 

Typing on cell. Sorry can't write more.

[boltnrun]

Wanting you to spend time with family. Asking you out again after you said you couldn't make an outing.

 

Hmmm...

[abitbroken]

I am 100 pages behind, but here goes..

 

What I value now after that Doc1 experience is SOMEONE WHO TREATS ME WELL, above everything else, makes me a priority and cherishes me. That is extremely attractive to me in a person. My experience with Doc1 is the exact opposite of Doc2. They couldn't be more different. Doc1 was not mean or horrible to me in any way, but he was indifferent about me unless he stood to benefit.

 

Doc2 has my best interest at hand. Is it because we've been friends for so long or is it because that's the way he is? Is he trying to get into my pants? I don't know and I do not want to ask.

 

If he had your best interests in mind, he would stay away from you for awhile and let you get over Doc1 because he doesn't want to catch you on the rebound. He would maybe take you to lunch to catch up, but he wouldn't be wining and dining you at this point - he would wait for signs of life - signs that you were feeling better and knew more of what you wanted so he didn't waste his time. he knows you are game for a non-committed arrangement based on hearing what is going on with doc1 so he may be saying "goodie, naomi might sleep with me on an ongoing basis if I provide her with nice times out and my company and she won't care to be involved otherwise".

This guy became your friend just before you started your arrangement with Doc1. He is not a five or ten year friendship where you had both always wondered if there was more there.

 

I say, don't date. Join meetup groups. Give yourself a good 6 months of no dating, no flirting by text, no getting guys' numbers and emailing and establishing a flirty relationship with them. Just concentrate on what Naomi really wants and fully get over the doctor. What is it with doctor's anyhow?

[Naomi99]

I've known him for four years and have met cousins etc over that time period and we have many mutual friends.

 

I don't know what it is about doctors but they are in different fields although doc1 attends meetings at doc2s building and it make me weirded out. doc2 knows all about doc1 but doc1 hasn't s clue about dic2 and most likely doesn't give a rats ass.

 

Next time maybe I will date s a psychiatrist.

[Rosti87]

I've known him for four years and have met cousins etc over that time period and we have many mutual friends.

 

I don't know what it is about doctors but they are in different fields although doc1 attends meetings at doc2s building and it make me weirded out. doc2 knows all about doc1 but doc1 hasn't s clue about dic2 and most likely doesn't give a rats ass.

 

Next time maybe I will date s a psychiatrist.

Er.. A psychiatrist is another doctor. Do you have thing for doctors?

[reinventmyself]

Er.. A psychiatrist is another doctor. Do you have thing for doctors?

 

Hello?! You just caught that? . .lol