Is He Being a Good Friend or Attempting to Seduce Me?

[ThatwasThen]

Why is he "R"?

Sorry, I thought you referred to him as "R."

 

I agree…if he feels more, then he needs to talk to me just like I talked to Doc1.

Just one difference. He was your friend prior to him stepping up his requests for your company. With Doc1, it was a pursuit that was not platonic. It will take Doc2 longer to voice anything because he will be afraid of losing the friendship, making it awkward between the two of you.

 

In any event. There is a lot of speculation that he is pursuing you with intent other then platonic. "Speculation" being the key word.

[boltnrun]

I think the request for you to accompany him to Europe was him making his move. If you said yes, that means you are interested in him romantically.

 

That's way different than saying "Hey, how about we plan a trip to Europe?" You know, phrased like two buddies having an adventure together. Nope, he phrased it as him taking you to Europe. Romantic intentions.

 

I just fear you will "try" to find him attractive, get into a regular dating situation with him, then you'll meet someone along the lines of Doc 1 or your ex who will set your pants on fire and you'll think "THIS is what I've been missing!"...and you'll end up leaving the relationship, breaking Doc 2's heart. I know for me, I cannot be in a relationship with someone I don't enjoy sex with.

 

I used to date a guy who again was right on paper, but holy cow the sex was horrible! This was a very, very attractive man who was constantly getting hit on,but he left me cold. It really sucked (not in a good way either lol). The next guy I dated DID set my pants on fire and it was so much better than Dud Sex Guy.

 

So, tread carefully is all I have to say.

 

PS: The person who pointed out this could be a Doc 1 situation all over again, where you're afraid or reluctant to speak up is dead on.

[IAmFCA]

A.

1. He knows he is not physically attractive in the traditional sense.

2. To win you, or most anyone, he will have to give her an opportunity to warm up to him and see how attractive his personality is.

 

In that sense, he is trying to woo you, if not seduce you exactly.

 

B.

1. Do you know yourself?

2. Do you know what you need to be relationship with someone else?

3. Are you ready to be seen so clearly that your bf reflects back to you faults about yourself you'd rather not think about?

4. Are you able to accept your friends, family, etc for who they are without trying to change them?

5. Do you respect this fellow?

6. Do you and he share similar values about spirituality, lifestyle, money, ambition?

7. Are you looking for a man to deliver a fantasy of hot man, romantic courtship, blissful future?

8. Can you and your friend express conflict without challenging your connection?

 

Love is more than sex and is largely respect and friendship.

 

If you love him and respect yourself, then you will behave in a manner that earns his respect, not just his adoration. You are not a gem, and he is not a white knight. You are friends. Be one.

[ThatwasThen]

I think the request for you to accompany him to Europe was him making his move. If you said yes, that means you are interested in him romantically.

Beg to differ. I have a girlfriend who went to Europe with her male platonic friend because they both wanted to see Europe and none of their other friends were interested. He did not ask her to go romantically and if he wanted her to go with him romantically he should have made sure that his intent was romantic and voiced.

 

If he were on here now wanting her to be more then his friend we all would be telling him to ask her to be his date, to let her know that he wanted her more then just a friend.

 

That's way different than saying "Hey, how about we plan a trip to Europe?" You know, phrased like two buddies having an adventure together. Nope, he phrased it as him taking you to Europe. Romantic intentions.

You must have long arms because that's quite a stretch you've got there.

 

I just fear you will "try" to find him attractive, get into a regular dating situation with him, then you'll meet someone along the lines of Doc 1 or your ex who will set your pants on fire and you'll think "THIS is what I've been missing!"...and you'll end up leaving the relationship, breaking Doc 2's heart. I know for me, I cannot be in a relationship with someone I don't enjoy sex with.

That is all speculation. I think Naomi has more sense then to try and make herself attracted to him. I think if anything, she COULD find herself becoming more attractive to him or, she could discover that there is no way in hell she'd ever become more then his friend.

 

I used to date a guy who again was right on paper, but holy cow the sex was horrible! This was a very, very attractive man who was constantly getting hit on,but he left me cold. It really sucked (not in a good way either lol). The next guy I dated DID set my pants on fire and it was so much better than Dud Sex Guy.

That was YOUR experience.

 

So, tread carefully is all I have to say.

After the last adventure in dating, I have complete faith in her doing just that.

 

PS: The person who pointed out this could be a Doc 1 situation all over again, where you're afraid or reluctant to speak up is dead on.

Its not her job to speak up. If she wants more then his friendship then it's her job.

 

 

Just My opinion.

[boltnrun]

I think Naomi has more sense then to try and make herself attractive to him. I think if anything, she COULD find herself becoming more attractive to him or, she could discover that there is no way in hell she'd ever become more then his friend.

 

Nowhere in the passage you quoted did I say SHE should try to make herself attractive to HIM. I was speaking of her trying to eventually become attracted to him. Note I said "try to find him attractive".

 

Ah, I see you went back and reread, then edited.

[IAmFCA]

The real question Naomi is asking is What are my intentions?

 

Yes, she might love him one day, or not. Nobody knows. Right now, she'd like to date him, I think.

[boltnrun]

I agree somewhat, but I think she WANTS to want to date him.

[mhowe]

I think she wants his attention and has little desire to "date" him...be intimate with him.

[IAmFCA]

I think she wants his attention and has little desire to "date" him...be intimate with him.

 

If this is true, she is using him and is no friend at all.

 

If she is ready and just needs to set her mind right, she needs to use this time to do that. Act like a date with him, reply with an offer to host for every third date or so. Take responsibility for what she wants, if she wants to date him properly.

 

Else, she needs to become less available, and focus on seeing her girlfriends.

[Naomi99]

How were you taking a break from men if you were letting him wine and dine you? I am confused, I guess I can't picture it.

 

He's a good friend. He knew of the breakup with the doctor. It's no big secret amongst our group of friends cuz they all hated him anyways. He took me out to a movie to get my mind off the breakup. Then outings kept increasing from there, but it is normal for us to do things together as friends so I didn't think much of it. We were also hanging out with our mutual friends so it didn't really dawn on me he might be romantically interested until his whisper about the european getaway.

 

So, no, I didn't view him as wining and dining me until maybe the last two weeks, and then I posted here.

[itsallgrand]

I only read the first original post.

 

Based on that, he is obviously moving in to dating you, and you are letting him.

 

Seems like a bad idea to me. Especially since you can't even fathom talking about it to this man.

 

I think you need to be clear. You are just out of a murky relationship where you didn't establish what you wanted and your boundaries early. Looks like you are doing it again.

[Naomi99]

There is a lot of speculation that he is pursuing you with intent other then platonic. "Speculation" being the key word.

 

Yes…agree. Like always, I panic too much over nothing, really.

[IAmFCA]

Back to that passive discussion:

 

Naomi is getting chosen instead of doing the choosing. That's a sign she doesn't value her own voice, even though she scoffed at being described as lacking in self esteem.

 

 

Naomi, Who cares what your guy friend is doing? Do you want him? Go get him. If not, stop being codependent, giving him the illusion of attracting you and you the illusion of being attractive.

 

When you are ready to be responsible for yourself, you will be too busy going for what you want so hat you won't be so available to.your friend who likes you. And I get it, once you stop giving him your company, maybe he won't be friends anymore. What does that tell you?

 

Do you have good girlfriends? Is it harder to make girlfriends? If so, that's because women don't give a hoot if you're hot and available. They don't work for you and they expect you to reciprocate

 

It is time to grow a set of boobs and take control of your life. Choose the women you want to attract as friends and cultivate them, earn their respect. Choose the sort of man you want and don't date anyone until you attract that sort of man. Drive the bus. It's time to rely on yourself, accept your flaws, let friends see you as you are and deal with it,and stop using fatso as a crutch.

 

Apologies for the slur but you think he is beneath you. Yet you are like besties. Remember,we attract who we are, so you've attracted someone with a marketing problem similar to your own, even if yours is less visible. It's time to deal with it.

[Naomi99]

I think the request for you to accompany him to Europe was him making his move. If you said yes, that means you are interested in him romantically.

 

Could be because he was blasted too. I wasn't drinking but he was. I won't bring it up ever unless he says it first.

 

So, tread carefully is all I have to say.

 

PS: The person who pointed out this could be a Doc 1 situation all over again, where you're afraid or reluctant to speak up is dead on.

 

I know this. The scary thing is this guy knows the whole story about the doctor and how I never initiated anything and was guarded, etc. That's why I am a little skeptical of all this sweetness. He knows.

[IAmFCA]

Yes…agree. Like always, I panic too much over nothing, really.

 

You are panicky because you are not in control.

 

You are not in control because you choose to follow.

 

You choose to follow because you like the thrill of not knowing where you are going, and the impunity should it go wrong.

 

Get in the drivers seat to go get what you want and this whole thought pattern evaporates. The thrills are more satisfying too.

[Naomi99]

Grow a set of boobs! I love it.

 

But NO WAY! I do not think he is below me at all!!! I've already chosen him as a friend…for four years. Do I want him romantically? TOO SOON TO TELL!!! That Europe comment threw me off big time.

 

And I have waaaaay more girlfriends than I do guy friends. I am much more comfortable around women and will always have my girls' backs no matter what. The problem is they're all married or hooked up. Me and this guy are pretty much the only single ones in the circle.

[IAmFCA]

Grow a set of boobs! I love it.

 

But NO WAY! I do not think he is below me at all!!! I've already chosen him as a friend…for four years. Do I want him romantically? TOO SOON TO TELL!!! That Europe comment threw me off big time.

 

And I have waaaaay more girlfriends than I do guy friends. I am much more comfortable around women and will always have my girls' backs no matter what. The problem is they're all married or hooked up. Me and this guy are pretty much the only single ones in the circle.

 

Ok, then back off a bit. You know who he is. You don't need to date him to learn whether you're interested. You need to learn more about yourself and your values, and whether you can compromise on your taste in looks.

 

I did, had one of the most transformational relationships of my life. But I could never have stayed with him forever, for a number of reasons. He was neither healthy nor attractive. We were codependent in a way, and he never would have shared a home with anyone, but he loved me dearly and he was who I needed for some 5+ years. I hoped I could stay with him, I couldn't. He spared me by leaving me through death, and he never knew I wavered. It was very unhealthy, really, and I'll never do it again, despite its deep gifts.

 

The questions are about you, not about him. You need a break from him so you can hear your own voice.

R

[Naomi99]

I agree somewhat, but I think she WANTS to want to date him.

 

Put it this way. I am curious.

[itsallgrand]

Put it this way. I am curious.

 

Curious is cool.

 

But then why not wait til you have all your s/t settled and KNOW you want to date him proper. And can say it. Unabashed. God, I really like you...want to date you...want to see if we can make something of this wonderful friendship we have.

 

But if he's real, he can wait for you to be on your two feet and know what you want 100&. He'd actually WANT that.

 

just my two cents.

[boltnrun]

Maybe back off for a bit. Don't see him for about a month. Tell him your next month is booked solid and you have some things you need to take care of (no need to be specific).

 

Then, see if you miss him. Not his companionship, not the places he would take you, not the conversation...HIM. See if you find yourself fantasizing about him. See if you imagine yourself waking up next to him and smiling. See if you have any desire to have physical contact with him. Think of 3 months down the road and if you could see yourself with this man, in a romantic relationship.

 

If you find yourself wanting any of those things...then I'd say go ahead and plan a romantic date. If not...let him know after the month is up that you'd like to get together and do a "friend" night (or day). Make it clear you want to get together as friends because you miss your buddy.

[Naomi99]

I should probably add the dynamics with this one can't be further from the doctor. I feel comfortable with him. Like I can burp and fart and not give a crap if he's offended.

 

I would be MORTIFIED if I let one slip in front of the doctor.

[tiredofvampires]

Once again, I'm late to an epic thread of yours, Naomi, and have only been able to skim through it. But I get the basics, enough to get a fairly good impression, I think.

 

First of all: even if you know he really wanted a relationship with you and wasn't "just trying to bang you" (which makes it easy to condemn him and therefore reject him), would you jump his bones? Would knowing that warm you to moving forward with romance with him? My guess is not. So the question presents a kind of false premise. It's slightly dishonest, because establishing him as "being a good friend" wouldn't help him win your heart, and would not solve your dilemma.

 

The rest of this is just commentary surrounding that one ultimate truth which I think is inescapable. I could leave it there, but I'll prattle on a bit. So, buckle up.

 

 

 

I'm struck by how uncertain you are of this man's intentions, and that you're questioning whether he "really cares about you" or "just wants to bang you." That's something you typically wonder about after recently becoming acquainted with someone -- not someone you call a "friend", who has been there for you for four years. After 4 years, you should have some sense that this persona actually cares about you, unless you've giving him the benefit of an almost heroic virtue of patience, to have been waiting through all your trials and tribulations all these years to find just the right opportunity to take advantage of you. And to imagine it possible that all this time, he's just wanted to get into your pants, with any other gestures for 4 years of real care being all phony and done with ulterior motives. I find that odd. I don't have any male friends who I am familiar with over the years who I'd not be able to intuitively read as biding their time to get into my pants in the predatorial way you're suggesting, vs. being genuinely caring but fostering a hope I might feel more for them, vs. having no interest in me except as a pure friend.

 

I actually find men not that difficult to read that way, especially after 4 years of patterns, conversations, gestures, nuances, body language, looks in their eyes, etc. And the fact that you do have difficulty suggests to me that you play in in some way that also gives THEM mixed signals, as you try to retain their attention. I think you're tuning information out in order to maintain some kind of status quo, and then wondering what's going on.

 

Back to your title, is it necessarily an "or" question? Maybe he really cares about you AND he wants to bang you. Is that possible? People are complex, moreso than the cookie-cutting that's been done on your threads.

 

Bottom line, if you don't know if your friend is a predator or is someone you can trust and feel safe with, I don't count it as much of a "friendship", let alone more. In which case, he may have been carrying a torch for you all this time and only now thinks you might be receptive (which is both opportunistic and understandable, given all the footing you're allowing him.) My point is, if you have to question his motives at this point, I give it a thumbs down as a friendship goes, and then all bets are off.

 

You say you're not very good at evaluating men's motives with you -- I'm going to add, you don't seem very adept at evaluating people's character, period. Neither with the last guy nor this one do you seem to really know how to see through to a person's character, or to have developed enough of a true and genuine bond with them, one of trust and vulnerability and AUTHENTICITY for you to know where their hearts really are at.

 

It seems the fuel you burn on is wishful thinking, in its various manifestations. A very dirty-burning fuel.

 

So I'm left with wondering if most of your relationships are at a shallow level. I'm struck by a certain impression of you that people more or less function for you as pacifiers in one way or another for the doubts and insecurities you have about yourself. I sense you've had intense relationships with men in particular -- but not necessarily deep ones, where you are doing more than just using your partner as a mirror to look at yourself in. Basically, it seems as though the relationships you get into are not so much about the quality of the relationship itself, but something it represents to you that you crave at the time, in a reactive fashion. These men have just been the appointed (or appearing) players to fill in those roles.

 

There was nothing special about doctor1 except that he was one of many potential sexual lightening rods for you, whom you might have encountered, and you took full advantage of that.

 

And there is nothing special about doctor2 except that he represents the antithesis of doctor1's flaws and incapacities. So now you are taking full advantage of that.

 

Neither man is really the right one for you -- and you are confusing qualities with the men themselves. It's good that you're looking for emotionally available men, but that's a quality. It's not a whole person, and you're looking for a whole person.

 

There are men who you won't have to work on feeling attracted to who also don't treat you like a hole with a heartbeat. I'm sure in all these other posts, that's been said somewhere. But really, you are presenting yourself with false choices -- either the guy who treats you like an afterthought who you're wildly attracted to, or the guy you feel treats you well who you have to "get past" visually and aesthetically.

 

The problem with waiting to see how well he grows on you physically (and that's happened with me, so I do have the experience that men have BECOME attractive to me over time), is that you've been hanging around this guy for 4 years and you still can't see being sexual with him. Four years is a long time to never have that thought even cross your mind, as he is being a kind gentleman to you and all the other things about his personality you find "attractive." My sense is that if you were to have been able to fall in love with him, glimmers of that feeling would have shown up along the way spontaneously and surprisingly, even if briefly. It's usually not an overnight transformation, just because now there's an opportunity waving itself in your face. As you wait for this wished-for lust to set in...you're giving him false hope, unless you have a frank talk with him, which is the only fair thing to him. Right now, he's being lead down a primrose path, and it's interesting to me that you've almost switched roles in this case with your previous relationship.

 

I wonder if he's had relationships all these 4 years? Do you think other women find him unattractive too? Maybe you feel a bit like a trophy to him. And he's good for your ego, in turn. So you are bonded by a feeling of personal weakness (ego needs), rather than strengths.

 

My advice from the last thread stands: 1. I do not think you should be dating men now. Period. This situation is really more rebound mode, not get-on-with-your-life-mode. And I think you're a bit desperate, to be honest. Desperate to replace doctor1, and with an upgrade. This starts you off on a really bad foot. Can you live your life right now without a man for a while? Could you just decide to take a break from dating? I think it would be really healthy, as right now, your search is impaired by your emotional triggers and neediness. 2. THERAPY. You did say last thread you needed more of it, but I hear no mention of it here and I sense it's not a priority. This is unfortunate. I do think you need counseling to help you sort out why your man-picker is broken, and why you feel that the ocean is so limited that you have to make a choice between unattractive option A and unattractive option B, otherwise, your world will be empty. There are other choices, but you have to be willing to step back from the process. The mentality you have now is of complete distrust of yourself, distrust of men, and distrust of the world and men to present to you an option that is right for you, at the right time. Your choices are all based on craving and fear right now, so please take to heart my suggestion that you work through this with a therapist and reclaim your life as a single woman who is making her life valuable WITHOUT A SEXUALLY/ROMANTICALLY-SMITTEN MAN TO FILL IN THE GAPS OF YOUR NEED FOR SELF-AFFIRMATION. And if you are weak in assessing what men's motives are, why are you picking men who are this opaque? And why are you "bad" at such assessments? You need to explore these interpersonal obstacles you have, what's driving them. It seems that you have a pattern of ferreting men out who you then feel are taking advantage of you in one way or another, even as you reap some juicy benefits, and you need to deal with that repeating theme. And then the issues of self-assertiveness and I think you probably need a good deal of development in the art of communication skills in general. There is almost ALWAYS a tactful yet honest way to convey your doubts or questions with someone, to not dance on eggshells and practice guesswork all the time. And then there is working on finding your own locus of knowing -- your intuition. You are cut off from intuition, which is of critical significance. So you have your work cut out for you, and I don't think you can do it properly while dating (yet), or just thinking about it over a cup of tea and pumpkin seeds or ENA (as good of an adjunct this is).

 

Dating for you now is like opening the oven while a cake is baking. And speaking of which, I do think this is the time to focus on your culinary interests and others; change the focus and you might be surprised what then evolves.

 

I'd wager being without anyone deliberately, getting off the merry-go-round right now would scare the living crap out of you. And that would be therapeutically informative and productive, I think.

 

And while you're at it, get some friends who you'd never ask your thread title question of, because you'd know them well enough that the answer is unequivocal.

[Hermes]

Yes, ToV.

"My advice from the last thread stands: 1. I do not think you should be dating men now. Period. This situation is really more rebound mode, not get-on-with-your-life-mode. And I think you're a bit desperate, to be honest. Desperate to replace doctor1, and with an upgrade. This starts you off on a really bad foot. Can you live your life right now without a man for a while? Could you just decide to take a break from dating? I think it would be really healthy, as right now, your search is impaired by your emotional triggers and neediness. 2. THERAPY. You did say last thread you needed more of it, but I hear no mention of it here and I sense it's not a priority. This is unfortunate. I do think you need counseling to help you sort out why your man-picker is broken, and why you feel that the ocean is so limited that you have to make a choice between unattractive option A and unattractive option B, otherwise, your world will be empty"

[Naomi99]

He's already got three things booked for us to do this week!! Dinner tonight, then baseball game mid week, then show on Friday.

 

Isn't that a bit much?

 

He gets a lot of "perks" from patients. I cannot turn down Friday or the BB game because I think my name is on a list, and that would be F-d up.

 

But agree…need to slow this down and take a break. It is becoming insane. I think your advice is great, because it will give me a chance to look at him without all these other factors he's clouding my mind with.

 

I will admit it IS helping me move on from the doctor though.

 

(this was posted before I read ToV's EXCELLENT post)

[boltnrun]

I will admit it IS helping me move on from the doctor though.

 

But that's not why we date someone. We date someone because we find them attractive in a romantic sense.

 

You can turn down Friday and the game. Your name on a list doesn't mean you have to show up or else. You can say you can't make it after all and leave it at that.

 

Three "dates" in one week is a romantic interest, BTW. You have to realize that.