I did something very bold. Very unlike me.

[jul-els]

No, and I have never hear of that happening with any of my girlfriends.

 

If a guy tried to kiss me (or anything else) when I did not want it 100% he is out the door fast. I have been lucky that I have never (like so many women) been in a situation where I have to be very forceful with a guy.

 

I don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm not asking you if ever had someone force themsleves onto you. I'm asking if you were ever making out with a guy and he wanted to have sex but you were on the fence but enjoying it and then decided you wanted to.

[chitown9]

Yuck! ...chi

[Moontiger]

I don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm not asking you if ever had someone force themsleves onto you. I'm asking if you were ever making out with a guy and he wanted to have sex but you were on the fence but enjoying it and then decided you wanted to.

 

...I already answered this. No, has never happened and if the guy tried he would be throw out. I was simple pointing that many women have been in situation where that is not an option.

[Ms Darcy]

I don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm not asking you if ever had someone force themsleves onto you. I'm asking if you were ever making out with a guy and he wanted to have sex but you were on the fence but enjoying it and then decided you wanted to.

 

Even if anyone has experienced this, I am not sure this relates to your situation. One, we talked about the "she's probably not enjoying it" piece. Two, I doubt any of the women on this thread would have been making out with a guy giving them a massage (who they were not dating).

[jenny_mcs]

Oh, wow, so so creepy. That poor girl. New and probably terrified of losing her job. It honestly makes me sick to my stomach.

[jul-els]

I understand that desire. I think seeking a simple transaction from a professional (ideally where it is legal) is your best bet for simple transactions.

 

I think long-term, you just gotta find a partner (and be faithful of course).

 

Of course. I've never cheated on anyone in my life. That's my curse, I'm just a bit too nice sometimes. That's not going to change though.

[Moontiger]

I think its important to point out, very clearly, that just because a woman acts "flirty" (if in fact she was) that does not mean she wants to sexual touch a guy. Think of strip clubs. Girls act like they like a guy and then go back stage and pop pills and drink themselves into oblivion because they feel so dead inside (I knew a girl who was a stripper for four years, this is what she told me).

[Capricorn3]

She escorted me out with her arm around me. Asked me to come back and to dream about her tonight. I suspect you may be unintentionally villainizing me just a wee tad.

No, I'm not villainizing you, just trying to explain to you WHY she giggled and her culture etc. I have a very long term friendship with two Asian women (and their families) for over 18 years and over those many years you get to learn a LOT about their culture and how things work. What this girl was doing was very very typical behaviour when feeling extreme embarrassment and acting the "obedient servant". It's "saving face". I was merely trying to explain how things work in their culture, which you seem to have a hard time understanding, or wanting to accept. For them, what you did was definitely overstepping the line.

[jenny_mcs]

That's my curse, I'm just a bit too nice sometimes.

 

You honestly don't see the irony of posting this in a thread where you describe how you tried to repeatedly coerce the new, non-English speaking masseuse into engaging in illegal and degrading sexual activity?

[Moontiger]

You honestly don't see the irony of posting this in a thread where you describe how you tried to repeatedly coerce the new, non-English speaking masseuse into engaging in illegal and degrading sexual activity?

 

100 rep points for you.

[sara-pezzini]

She walked next to me and put her arm around me and in her broken english was telling me I should have sweet dreams and I think she was trying to find the proper english to say I should dream about her. Sales, you know. QUOTE]

 

this is what you said in your original post, so she did not say to dream of her, you thought she might have meant that, and then later when everyone commented negatively you made it like she actually said it.

you are trying to find excuses for your behavior, but there are none, sorry, you were a creep and this girl was clearly not okay with it.

the reason she went along might also be to get you out the door as quickly as possible and without any trouble, did you think of that?

you made a picture in your head of how you think she saw the whole thing, and of course that picture clears your conscience, but you don't know what she thought or felt or how she feels now, you crossed a line and could very well have been a traumatic experience for her.

and to say she spoke english and therefore knew what you meant and vice versa is bull, my BF is not orignially from my country but lives and works here for 18 years now, speaks the language well, yet there are still misunderstandings when he doesn't fully understand a word or sentence....

you are trying to okay your behavior but bottom line is, it was not okay, not at all.....

and i also feel bad for the girl, must be a horrible experience, you cannot get out of the situation cause she doesn't know if people would believe her, or you, since you are a native, so she goes along with it, and tries to just get it over with, that is how i see it from your original post....

[jul-els]

Okay, I get the point ladies. Thanks for your feedback. I guess you all think I'm a creep, pervert, rapist or what have you now, but whatever, I asked for your opinion. Duly noted.

[Moontiger]

Okay, I get the point ladies. Thanks for your feedback. I guess you all think I'm a creep, pervert, rapist or what have you now, but whatever, I asked for your opinion. Duly noted.

 

Not a rapist but you did sexual harasses this poor girl.

[jenny_mcs]

You're not a rapist. You're a guy who pressured a woman who is in a very vulnerable position into touching your penis. In your head it played as a sexy fantasy. The people on his thread are pointing out that to her it wasn't a sexy fantasy, it was being pressured to touch a stranger's penis.

[Moontiger]

We are giving you an object evaluation of what happened. To you (with a western frame of mind) it was a sexy prono fantasy, to the girl (with an eastern frame of mind) she was stressed, worried, unsure, pressured, and wanting to get you out fast. To outside observers (us here on ena) it was sexual harassment.

[jul-els]

You honestly don't see the irony of posting this in a thread where you describe how you tried to repeatedly coerce the new, non-English speaking masseuse into engaging in illegal and degrading sexual activity?

 

Well, I won't stoop to defending my character, I just wanted opinions. The opinion seems to be I'm some kind of monster. An opinion to which you are entitled. The truth is you don't know anything about me though, so perhaps it would be best to not be so quick to judge.

[Moontiger]

Well, I won't stoop to defending my character, I just wanted opinions. The opinion seems to be I'm some kind of monster. An opinion to which you are entitled. The truth is you don't know anything about me though, so perhaps it would be best to not be so quick to judge.

 

Sorry, but if you sexual harass someone you will be judged.

[jul-els]

We are giving you an object evaluation of what happened. To you (with a western frame of mind) it was a sexy prono fantasy, to the girl (with an eastern frame of mind) she was stressed, worried, unsure, pressured, and wanting to get you out fast. To outside observers (us here on ena) it was sexual harassment.

 

Well, it's not truly objective because you only have what I'm saying to go by, which I am trying my best to be accurate, but that doesn't mean I can describe exactly the way it happened as if you saw it for yourself. But I guess it does make me in your opinion if not a rapist then at least a creep or a pervert. Which if you knew me you would know wasn't true, but you don't know me, you only know this thread. I do thank you for your honest opinion though, I appreciate it.

[Moontiger]

That the think about people who sexual harass others, they never see themselves that way, think the other person was asking for it, and often come accross quite normal to others.

 

Even with you trying to spin what happened in your favor it is pretty clear what happened.

[jul-els]

That the think about people who sexual harass others, they never see themselves that way, think the other person was asking for it, and often come accross quite normal to others.

 

Even with you trying to spin what happened in your favor it is pretty clear what happened.

 

Okay, so if that's true it was just a one time mistake. Like I said I've never tried anything like this before, it was just a fantasy and I wanted to try it. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but she really didn't seem like she was disinterested. You are all making rationalizations as to how I misinterpreted her, but there is a possibility you are also incorrect. Which you will never concede to, I know. I will concede however that you may be right and that what maybe what I did was harassment. There is also a possibility that it wasn't. The point is I was going about getting what I wanted the wrong way and you all have made that clear to me. I really have no desire to be a person who offends or degrades others, so if you are correct in your assumptions, you have certainly made your point.

[tiredofvampires]

She honestly did not seem hesitant

 

Jul-els, what I find most disturbing here, even moreso than the incident itself, is the way you're re-interpreting everything in your favor. It's disturbing because it's important for someone to recognize when they have crossed someone's boundaries, and been out of line in their behavior, and you're refusing to acknowledge this. This is actually more worrisome to me than an experimental fantasy that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. (and is this a general trait with you? to not be able to acknowledge things you've done wrongly? because that can be very difficult in relationships.)

 

You have just said that she was not hesitant. So review the following excerpts from your OP, which you wrote before you got all this criticism:

 

"Can you touch it?". She just kind of giggled nervously and said, "no trouble". She is asian and spoke very broken english. "No, no trouble", I replied. She then said, "You can touch it, how about I just touch around it?"

 

As she did this, I gently and respectfully touched her hand to try and guide it along. She kind of cooperated, but was hesitant.

 

So you said she "kind of cooperated" BUT was "hesitant." You said she laughed nervously. You related how you asked her to touch your privates and she tried to get out of it by only touching the areas around them, and asking you to touch your own stuff. So she didn't want to touch you.

 

How can you backpeddle from this?

 

I think you were being more honest with yourself and us when you asked at the end of your OP:

 

Should I feel bad? I don't. Was I being a creep?

 

You were obviously feeling conflicted about it. Which is a sign that you're aware that it wasn't all that savory. And it's good to be aware.

 

What has followed is a continuous stream of self-justification and equivocation, implying that because we don't know the situation, weren't there, and can't know what she was really feeling, nothing here can be determined about the dynamic of this transaction and nothing in your behavior can be called inappropriate.

 

I'm not trying to shame you...but I don't see you taking any responsibility for what you know yourself, as of your original story and final questions, to have been sketchy.

 

If your OP did not accurately reflect the story, then we can't know that. But according to that, she was hesitant and nervous, at very least, by your own words. So now you have revised it based on the reactions you're getting, it seems. I don't know why else you would retract your uncertainty and read of the vibe you were getting from her.

 

As for a scenario where a guy is trying to kiss or make out with me, and I'm on the fence because I'm sorta wanting it and sorta not, yeah, that's happened a lot in my life. And the difference is that, as you say, I was kind of INTO IT, it wasn't a business transaction. Which brings us back a few posts to when you said you had no delusions that this girl was "into" you, it was merely a business transaction. Now you're comparing this situation to one where you're hanging out with a guy you kind of like, or you feel "into" someone. Seems like you just made the argument to me a few pages ago that these are two separate kinds of scenarios, and her being "into" it or you was nowhere in this equation. Now, you're making that very comparison/argument. You are now suggesting that this girl did this because she kind of was into you, kind of liked it, kind of wanted to do it, but was torn. Even though all you were was a client.

 

You are right now comparing yourself to a guy who pushes and pressures someone even though she's not being enthusiastic, just to see if he can finally get his way. And this is your idea of respectful? Or the guy you'd like to emulate?

 

It's a little confusing.

 

And btw, in 100% of those cases where I was on the fence and the guy persisted, I felt that the guy was being a bit of a douche for pushing me even when he could very well tell I was hesitant. The guy who wins my heart is the one who reads my cues, respects them by backing off when he's getting that vibe, and doesn't take advantage as an opportunist of any weakness or confusion I may be feeling.

 

I can understand being lonely, but be honest with yourself here. It really doesn't matter how anyone else judges it -- how do you judge it, given all that you said originally and your uncertainties there, as well as every single woman on this thread having a viscerally bad reaction to the sort of thing that happened there?

 

I don't think you committed a crime, and live and learn, but also be ready to see the less flattering sides of yourself, or you're not going to learn.

[sara-pezzini]

i do think on some part you knew it was not entirely okay, hence adding the am i a creep to the end of your post, now you got all these responses and they make you defensive, cause now you see everyone thinks it was not okay at all, so you argue, try to make it sound okay again, cause otherwise you have to face up to the fact that this was not okay at all and that is hard to live with probably, so you fight, argue, keep explaining it all, and i get that, i get why you do that, but at the end of the day some part of you knows this was not okay behavior at all.....i do not think you are a rapist or whatever, you know you crossed the line, on some level you know and i also think you will not do something like this again, but you cannot make this sound right...so better own up to it, you made a mistake...period

[jul-els]

Well, there is the possibility I'm not describing it completely accurately, but as you say it's my impression of it that counts and what I am describing is my impression of it. I had no intention of crossing any boundaries. As to whether I am always aware of whether I've done things wrongly, yeah, I think I pretty much am. I guess my final impression of the whole thing was a questionable one. On one hand I saw it as a business transaction, I mean there are places who perform those kinds of services and as to whether or not this was one of them, I honestly wasn't sure, so I tried it to see if it was.

 

I figured if it wasn't she would tell me so. Which she did say no trouble, but then she kind of laughed about it, and didn't tell me to cover back up. Her body language was not uncomfortable and I was thinking maybe she does provide these services but needs to be sure I'm not a cop or someone who would cause her to lose her job, which I'm not. I'm not sure how these sort of things work, I figured she just needed to be sure she could trust me first. Which may be the case, which is something no one here seems to be interested in considering. Just that I'm a pervert. Which is fine it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks, as you said, it only matters what I think and I know I'm not a creep.

 

I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about this. The thought of going to an actual prostitute does not appeal to me only for health reasons but a prostitute can provide favors that don't reguire an exchange of body fluids. Just not sure where to find one. Perhaps I should forget the idea as you ladies are pointing out to me I don't know what I'm doing.

[Fudgie]

I told you, find a local parlor that caters to things like this and those ladies will be happy to give you a squeeze.

 

Don't go to reputable places and expect sex, that's all.

[SapphireNoir10]

This thread made me extremely uncomfortable.

 

It isn't the place that does 'happy endings' she clearly said 'no' 'no trouble' she was uncomfortable and felt pressured. She doesn't speak english well and due to cultural differences didn't want to disappoint you so you got her fired or something.

 

Honestly. I'd be taking a long hard look at myself. Think of her. How do you know she doesn't have a husband or a boyfriend somewhere?