I did something very bold. Very unlike me.

[Capricorn3]

Yeah, she did say "no trouble" at first and playfully giggled..

That sounds like very typical behaviour in her culture when they feel very embarrassed - they also feel they have to "obey" and don't want to cause any trouble. Her giggling was her extreme discomfort of the situation. Man, I can't help but feel really bad for this girl. Not nice.

[jul-els]

I was indirectly addressing a point that Blue Spiral had made in your defense, which was that if she had been "into" you, it would be called sexy, but since she isn't "into" you, it's being called creepy. Which was a criticism of the responses you're getting here. So I was rejecting that line of argument.

 

So you don't agree with anyone here that it was creepy. You believe she was not put off in any way.

 

Is this correct?

 

So when you posted this thread, did you feel any conflict when you asked if it was creepy?

 

No, I honestly thought it was kinda sexy. But as I said I've never done anything like this before, it's very unlike me so I wasn't really sure what to think. But I as I said she said "no trouble" but she giggled when she said it and she seemed very playful about it. She was calling me honey and being a little bit flirty during the massage also. Maybe it was a misinterpretation on my part. Maybe it wasn't. Since I was one of the only two parties who were actually there, I'm going to say based on my impression it wasn't.

[Moontiger]

There is a huge difference between "playfully" giggling and "nervously" giggling. You simple choose to believe that she was being playful so what you planned on doing would not be sexual harassment in your mind. This is typical thinking from people who do not respect boundaries.

 

EDIT: You also have not accounted for the HUGE cultural differences. You are looking at her behavior with a western eye. So sad for this girl.

[jul-els]

That sounds like very typical behaviour in her culture when they feel very embarrassed - they also feel they have to "obey" and don't want to cause any trouble. Her giggling was her extreme discomfort of the situation. Man, I can't help but feel really bad for this girl. Not nice.

 

She escorted me out with her arm around me. Asked me to come back and to dream about her tonight. I suspect you may be unintentionally villainizing me just a wee tad.

[Ms Darcy]

That sounds like very typical behaviour in her culture when they feel very embarrassed - they also feel they have to "obey" and don't want to cause any trouble. Her giggling was her extreme discomfort of the situation. Man, I can't help but feel really bad for this girl. Not nice.

 

Amen to this. Cultural sensitivity is important and in some cultures giggling can mean discomfort, embarrassment, or shame.

 

I don't mean to split this into genders, but anyone notice how the women are for the most part clearly indicating this was wrong? I don't know why that is but I would imagine more women than men have experience with being inappropriately sexually propositioned?

[Moontiger]

She escorted me out with her arm around me. Asked me to come back and to dream about her tonight. I suspect you may be unintentionally villainizing me just a wee tad.

 

Cultural differences, not wanting to upset a repeat customer at a new job, not knowing what was expect of her, or (at worst) she is a new sex worker just brought over and being forced to work. All these things explain her behavior.

[Ms Darcy]

It's just interesting because for the OP this was sexy. For the girl? I can't imagine this was really sexy.

[Moontiger]

Amen to this. Cultural sensitivity is important and in some cultures giggling can mean discomfort, embarrassment, or shame.

 

I don't mean to split this into genders, but anyone notice how the women are for the most part clearly indicating this was wrong? I don't know why that is but I would imagine more women than men have experience with being inappropriately sexually propositioned?

 

This is a good point. As women are more likely to be victims of sexual abuse you could say "we know it when we see it."

[jul-els]

There is a huge difference between "playfully" giggling and "nervously" giggling. You simple choose to believe that she was being playful so what you planned on doing would not be sexual harassment in your mind. This is typical thinking from people who do not respect boundaries.

 

EDIT: You also have not accounted for the HUGE cultural differences. You are looking at her behavior with a western eye. So sad for this girl.

 

But how do you know if her giggling was "playful" or "nervous"? You weren't actually there. You're drawing conclusions based on my telling of the tale, which I have done to the best of my ability, but you won't accept the possibility my impressions may have been correct. I'm willing to concede that maybe they weren't, but maybe they were. There is that possibility.

[Moontiger]

It's just interesting because for the OP this was sexy. For the girl? I can't imagine this was really sexy.

 

I don't he he thinks she enjoyed it. He claims to not think she is really "into him", rather he seems to think that she was 100% willing in this sexual transaction. Even though she doesn't speak english well, said no, was a new employee probably worried about upsetting one of her first customers, etc.

[Moontiger]

But how do you know if her giggling was "playful" or "nervous"? You weren't actually there. You're drawing conclusions based on my telling of the tale, which I have done to the best of my ability, but you won't accept the possibility my impressions may have been correct. I'm willing to concede that maybe they weren't, but maybe they were. There is that possibility.

 

Based on all the information provided, there is no possibility she was 100% willing in this.

[jul-els]

Cultural differences, not wanting to upset a repeat customer at a new job, not knowing what was expect of her, or (at worst) she is a new sex worker just brought over and being forced to work. All these things explain her behavior.

 

All these things could also be wrong. I'm not saying if they are or not, but they could be. As I said I've been going to this place for awhile for just regular massages. If I have been getting legal massages from sex workers all this time that means I would have been supporting trafficking all along. Who's to know?

[Ms Darcy]

This is a good point. As women are more likely to be victims of sexual abuse you could say "we know it when we see it."

 

Right. Which is not to suggest that men wouldn't have empathy or 'get it.' I told my bf and his first response was "Gross." From his perspective, he understands wanting to act from sexual desires but is aware that you have to make sure the other person is in a comparable position as you are to make it a morally OK encounter. He's very big on not sleeping with a girl who has been drinking or anyone much younger.

[Moontiger]

All these things could also be wrong. I'm not saying if they are or not, but they could be. As I said I've been going to this place for awhile for just regular massages. If I have been getting legal massages from sex workers all this time that means I would have been supporting trafficking all along. Who's to know?

 

I was explaining her behavior to you. Not saying that you are supporting sex trafficking.

[Moontiger]

Right. Which is not to suggest that men wouldn't have empathy or 'get it.' I told my bf and his first response was "Gross." From his perspective, he understands wanting to act from sexual desires but is aware that you have to make sure the other person is in a comparable position as you are to make it a morally OK encounter. He's very big on not sleeping with a girl who has been drinking or anyone much younger.

 

You have a good man there.

[Moontiger]

I have to say this whole thread is reminding me of the "they was asking for it" arguments made by people who don't respect sexual boundaries. Just because a persons doesn't say "no, get the f out of here" doesn't mean they are saying "yes"

[tiredofvampires]

No, I honestly thought it was kinda sexy. But as I said I've never done anything like this before, it's very unlike me so I wasn't really sure what to think. But I as I said she said "no trouble" but she giggled when she said it and she seemed very playful about it. She was calling me honey and being a little bit flirty during the massage also. Maybe it was a misinterpretation on my part. Maybe it wasn't. Since I was one of the only two parties who were actually there, I'm going to say based on my impression it wasn't.

 

I think what's astonishing me here is that I don't think of you as a naive man. I see you as someone who has lived a bit, knows the world some, and has some savvy. But you are speaking as though you either were just drop-shipped from Pluto or else you're in a a self-defensive mode and in denial. The extent to which you're justifying your behavior is what's disturbing, even more than the events themselves.

 

The most glaring thing that should have gotten your attention is that she had to be coaxed. She tried to do something short of touching your privates, but you eventually got her to do it a bit. How do you not read reluctance in that? You can say you had a fantasy that was possibly running you at the moment and put out the moves, but at the moment she showed she was hesitant -- a word YOU used -- and tried to get out of it, you should have thought, and said, "Nevermind." I mean, c'mon man -- are you really this unaware of the interpersonal cues you're getting?

 

I could go with your saying you tried something and now realize it could have -- COULD have, and that is ALL THAT MATTERS HERE -- made someone uncomfortable enough that it shouldn't be repeated. But you're continuing to point to her giggling, her playful demeanor, her flirtyness, her telling you to dream of her that night, as signs that she was fine with it. What you're not getting here is that someone can totally feel you're creepy and call you "honey", giggle, put their arm around you, and any number of other things they think a client expects. Prostitutes call their clients "honey" and "baby" all the time. Do you think that's an accurate reflection of how they feel towards their clients? So what's troubling here is that you are an experienced man talking as though her outward acquiescence = her not feeling icky, and your being two equally consenting adults.

 

If she expressed being scared about getting in trouble and was trying to get out of touching your privates, I'm not sure how that would not register with you as being bad signs. I am all for fantasies, but not ones where one party is showing signs that show confusion, embarrassment, hestitancy, being scared of repercussions. It doesn't matter what was really going on in her mind -- what matters is that there were enough signs for you to say this COULD be very unwelcome.

 

I think it's unlike you, and it should continue to be unlike you.

[jul-els]

I think this is all you need to do. While I think (and the law agrees in most places) that prostitution is wrong, at the very least both parties know what they are getting into and negotiate terms.

 

Edit: My bf read this and said: "Why doesn't he just get a girlfriend who gives him sexy massages with a happy ending? All guys have fantasies. Probably don't want to go around acting them out."

 

My track record with choosing women is really poor. At the end of the day, I want someone to love who loves me just like anyone else, but my past is one of doing so with women who are really bad for me. Kinda makes me feel like not bothering sometimes. I'm not 100% why I've been that way, it's pretty complex. That's why sometimes it sounds nice just to have a simple transaction with someone and leave it at that. But if that's what I want, I suppose I'm going about it the wrong way.

[Ms Darcy]

I have to say this whole thread is reminding me of the "they was asking for it" arguments made by people who don't respect sexual boundaries. Just because a persons doesn't say "no, get the f out of here" doesn't mean they are saying "yes"

 

I am not in any way suggesting the OP is like this, but there was a story about a guy who was charged with rape a few years ago. He was about 20 and the girl was about 15 or 16. He was a neighbor who came over to their house. They had no prior dating relationship. Anyway, he came over when her parents were gone/she was alone. They were on the couch and he suddenly made a move. She kept saying "I don't know." and "My parents will be home any minute." Anyway, according to both, she just laid back/didn't move and he "did it" and left.

 

He was found not guilty of rape (but there was a statutory rape conviction I believe) because the jurors didn't understand why she didn't say no clearly and fight back. A psychologist was later talking about how the girl didn't fully understand what was happening, was in shock, was almost stunned. It's like she didn't fully process what was going on until 2 or 3 days later. She didn't know how to say no. Not to speak of there was no prior relationship between the two ... not even a date. It was just a guy who saw her parents were gone and came over.

 

My point is, sexual activity can happen very fast and both people have to understand what is going on. Consent is a slippery slope but generally I would not feel I had consent from someone who didn't speak my language while in my country.

[Moontiger]

Ms. Darcy, I wish I could rep you!

[jul-els]

I've just been lonely lately. As far as your question about prostitutes caring about how they feel about their clients, that's a moot point. They just conduct consentual business. It's an act and how anyone feels about it is irrelevant. That's the point of prostitution. She honestly did not seem hesitant. It also seems interesting to me conversely that all of the things she did that I interpreted as agreeable, because at least on the surface that's what they are, you are rejecting out of hand and saying there's no way she meant them. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're not. She did seem very agreeable. Hasn't any girl reading this thread ever been hanging out with a guy when he made a move and you were kinda into it but kinda not. Then he kissed you more or said something or did whatever that made you decide you wanted to go for it? I am surprised how every one just automatically wants to sign me off as being delusional on this. Maybe in this instance I was. Maybe I wasn't. I don't think I was, but it really doesn't matter. Bottom line is I get the point of what you're trying to say. If this is what I want, I should go about it another way.

[Ms Darcy]

My track record with choosing women is really poor. At the end of the day, I want someone to love who loves me just like anyone else, but my past is one of doing so with women who are really bad for me. Kinda makes me feel like not bothering sometimes. I'm not 100% why I've been that way, it's pretty complex. That's why sometimes it sounds nice just to have a simple transaction with someone and leave it at that. But if that's what I want, I suppose I'm going about it the wrong way.

 

I understand that desire. I think seeking a simple transaction from a professional (ideally where it is legal) is your best bet for simple transactions.

 

I think long-term, you just gotta find a partner (and be faithful of course).

[Moontiger]

Hasn't any girl reading this thread ever been hanging out with a guy when he made a move and you were kinda into it but kinda not. Then he kissed you more or said something or did whatever that made you decide you wanted to go for it?

 

No, and I have never hear of that happening with any of my girlfriends.

 

If a guy tried to kiss me (or anything else) when I did not want it 100% he is out the door fast. I have been lucky that I have never (like so many women) been in a situation where I have to be very forceful with a guy.

[jul-els]

She spoke my language. Not fluently, but she spoke english. We perfectly understood everything each other said. Except for where you are insisting I didn't. Which I don't necessarily agree with, but I get your point.

[Fudgie]

I agree. Next time, just go to a massage parlor that specializes in happy endings. That way you know it's consensual and wanted. If you're not sure where to go, do a search online, looking for some km your area.

 

I think prostitutes are gross and I wouldn't date a guy who bought them but I don't actually have a moral objection to adult prostitutes. You wanna sell your body for sex and you're 18+, eh, go for it. Don't care. People who want these sorts of transactions are going to do it anyway.

 

OP, next time, go to one of these places. Don't guess. If the girl seems hesitant, don't go. Go to someone who will be happy to massage you there.