I did something very bold. Very unlike me.

[poetryandlyrics]

As long as you keep stressing out on the possibility, it would seem you're focusing on that rather than what you really did.

 

I, too, do not care about prosititutes as long everybody consents to it and wish it was regulated like Europe though I do like the way the book I've read before (sci-fi in the sense that its the future so some laws are different) approaches the system of prosititutes.

 

That said, I also noticed you mentioned you went to a massage parlor in a strip mall? How would that location be fitting for those kind of massage parlors?

[HeatherB]

Other people have already expressed my immediate reaction to your post. So I won't pile on about it. Seems like you get the point.

 

Let's see what can be learned here. You felt bold when you made your request to the masseuse, taking a risk. That was a meaningful act to you. And asking for what you want sexually, in most circumstances, is very positive. Maybe this is a sign that you can be bolder in other areas of your life. Keep moving forward with this. Learn and move on.

[pl3asehelp]

I think paying for sex in any way is at least creepy. I don't think it was bold though - what's bold is going out and getting yourself a girlfriend who you don't have to pay to touch you.

[HeatherB]

I think paying for sex in any way is at least creepy. I don't think it was bold though - what's bold is going out and getting yourself a girlfriend who you don't have to pay to touch you.

 

Asking for what you want in the face of potential disapproval is bold. The circumstances here are inappropriate, but that topic's already been ridden to death. If you encourage his boldness, maybe he really will try approaching a potential real girlfriend. Adding to his shame just makes us feel better at his expense. I think he gets it.

[jul-els]

Asking for what you want in the face of potential disapproval is bold. The circumstances here are inappropriate, but that topic's already been ridden to death. If you encourage his boldness, maybe he really will try approaching a potential real girlfriend. Adding to his shame just makes us feel better at his expense. I think he gets it.

 

I've got no problem going out and finding a girlfriend and asking for what I want and such. My personal problem is the type of women I choose. I choose very poorly. I am not completely sure why I do this and as long as that is the case I'm sure I will probably continue doing it. That's why I'm thinking paying for a little quick professional mutually consensual physical affection with no attachments may be a better option for me. It may not be. I won't know unless I try it.

[pl3asehelp]

Asking for what you want in the face of potential disapproval is bold. The circumstances here are inappropriate, but that topic's already been ridden to death. If you encourage his boldness, maybe he really will try approaching a potential real girlfriend. Adding to his shame just makes us feel better at his expense. I think he gets it.

 

I'm not going to encourage any more of what you think is boldness from this guy as he's already participating in criminal sexual activity and I don't want that to escalate. I don't feel any better regardless of whether he feels shame or not. I'm concerned about his victims, not him. There's nothing he can do to make this any better for this poor girl. The damage has been done. I don't think he or you gets it at all.

[HeatherB]

I've got no problem going out and finding a girlfriend and asking for what I want and such. My personal problem is the type of women I choose. I choose very poorly. I am not completely sure why I do this and as long as that is the case I'm sure I will probably continue doing it. That's why I'm thinking paying for a little quick professional mutually consensual physical affection with no attachments may be a better option for me. It may not be. I won't know unless I try it.

 

It is not a better option. It's a cop out. And it could get you a criminal record. You've already tried it. And it has nothing to do with the benefits of being in a relationship.

 

Take the money you could spend on "massage" and put it towards a good counselor. You can work on why you choose bad women and come up with some new strategies for finding a good one. That's the bold option.

 

Hiding away from risk and using substitutes to try to protect yourself is the opposite of bold. Branch out and stop allowing yourself excuses. Deep down you know the truth.

[HeatherB]

I'm not going to encourage any more of what you think is boldness from this guy as he's already participating in criminal sexual activity and I don't want that to escalate. I don't feel any better regardless of whether he feels shame or not. I'm concerned about his victims, not him. There's nothing he can do to make this any better for this poor girl. The damage has been done. I don't think he or you gets it at all.

 

I keep forgetting to avoid nuance when responding to you. I think it's great that you are anti human traffiking. It is a serious problem. And johns perpetuate the problem by creating demand for a soul-killing product that damages women all over the world. But I thought everyone knew that.

[EchoEcho]

She honestly did not seem hesitant. It also seems interesting to me conversely that all of the things she did that I interpreted as agreeable, because at least on the surface that's what they are, you are rejecting out of hand and saying there's no way she meant them.

Hasn't any girl reading this thread ever been hanging out with a guy when he made a move and you were kinda into it but kinda not. Then he kissed you more or said something or did whatever that made you decide you wanted to go for it?

 

This situation so closely parallels something that has happened in my life, I feel compelled to reply.

 

My boyfriend had a fantasy that he wanted to play out with me. He respectfully and slowly lend me in that direction, but instead of going along with it, I tried to hesitate and I resist discretely. I didn't want to upset the mood, so I playfully pushed him away several times and giggled at his antics.

 

I wasn't at all into the idea. I absolutely did not want to do it. At the same time, seeing as he was my boyfriend, I did want to make him happy and a large part of me felt obligated to fulfil his desire. I started to try and compromise, so maybe something else would be enough and he wouldn't need the rest. In the end, I had budged enough that he stopped persuading for more, but I had gone too far for myself. He was elated, I was destroyed.

 

To answer your above question, no. I have never been in a situation where I was kind of into something and kind of not, then changed my mind once I was properly won over. There were many times I was simply too passive and surrendered to the pressure. I hate myself for those times.

 

Jul-es, I'm sure no one here thinks you're a rapist or a monster, just like my boyfriend isn't. I think you just misread the signals because your fantasy overtook the reality of the situation.

[jul-els]

It is not a better option. It's a cop out. And it could get you a criminal record. You've already tried it. And it has nothing to do with the benefits of being in a relationship.

 

Take the money you could spend on "massage" and put it towards a good counselor. You can work on why you choose bad women and come up with some new strategies for finding a good one. That's the bold option.

 

Hiding away from risk and using substitutes to try to protect yourself is the opposite of bold. Branch out and stop allowing yourself excuses. Deep down you know the truth.

 

I honestly don't feel what I'm searching for is a cop out at this point. I have honestly and sincerely tried to contribute to a healthy loving relationship a number of times. I'm not sure it's for me at this point. I'm wondering if something else is. Maybe it isn't, but I'm interested to give it a try. As far as therapy goes, I honestly don't think there's anything there for me there other than money down the drain. I can psycho babble to myself all day and get the same result with nothing out of pocket, in my honest opinion.

[jul-els]

Very well put. Thank you for your perspective.

[stalumfi]

I think the OP might want to ask himself - if, indeed there is the possibility that he is seriously in ignorance as to his own motives - why he waited until for the new, foreign employee to try out his "fantasy". He might also want to question the way in which he, fully aware of her wish not to do what he was pushing her to do and of the vulnerability of her position - he makes that much clear in his description - kept on chipping away at her resistance, using her vulnerability against her. This is utterly despicable and makes me queasy. What makes it even more disturbing is his later additions to the tale to rationalise it to himself and others, such as that she was "giggling". Oh, and we get the pathetic nice guy act - "too nice for my own good", seriously? - to garner sympathy

 

OP, I don't know if you're a potential rapist, but by God, you certainly have the right mentality. You scare me, and if you have any self-awareness or decency, you should be scared at this aspect of yourself too.

[pl3asehelp]

I keep forgetting to avoid nuance when responding to you. I think it's great that you are anti human traffiking. It is a serious problem. And johns perpetuate the problem by creating demand for a soul-killing product that damages women all over the world. But I thought everyone knew that.

 

I'm not sure why you think that how many people know the facts you stated above is relevant. Whether everyone, nobody, or a few people know it's still happening everyday and I'm not going to put a feather in any criminals cap by calling them bold for perpetrating these crimes. It' better for the victims that these criminals realize they have a problem and address it rather than think of themselves as bold and have others support them in that incorrect assessment of themselves. I don't see any room for nuance here at all or how that could help this poor girl who is a victim and should be the priority.

[Moontiger]

I'm not sure why you think that how many people know the facts you stated above is relevant. Whether everyone, nobody, or a few people know it's still happening everyday and I'm not going to put a feather in any criminals cap by calling them bold for perpetrating these crimes. It' better for the victims that these criminals realize they have a problem and address it rather than think of themselves as bold or have others support them in that incorrect assessment of themselves.

 

 

Yup.

 

So, the OP got carried away with a fantasy, that does not make what his did any better, just because he feels sad or alone, doesn't give him the right to pressure another person into a sexual act.

 

What he did was wrong and criminal in our society.

[jul-els]

What I did may or may not have been right, depending on how it was percieved by the parties involved. After this thread, I realize what I did was not the best thing to do and I won't do it again. The reason why I've been "defending" myself, as you all say, is because it is not easy to put in words on a screen what I did for all to see and have it be 100% accurate. It's not easy to be called a criminal and a harrasser by the general public, but I asked for it because I wanted to hear the opinions. Doesn't make myself or anyone who has labeled me right or wrong, it's all opinions based on a post. I feel that many of you have made very valid points, at least points that have resonated with me. It certainly doesn't make me a serial offender going out with the intention of doing so, as seems to be being intimated at this point. I'm just getting some perspective on what transpired.

 

As I said, I have been to this same place many times for a legal massage and there have been times when the (asian) girl brushed my genitals repeatedly and then giggled nervously and said sorry each time. I wasn't sure what to think of that actually. There have also been times they have gently placed thier breasts on my face and subtly rubbed their crotch on my buttocks. If they are legitimate they know what parts to avoid. I figured she might have been trying to make some extra money, but wasn't sure if I was a cop. Or maybe just those actions in and of themselves she figured might make her some extra money. I always tip these girls well. I figured I'd see what would happen if I went the extra step. I guess I should have waited to do that with one of the regulars who knew me, though. Either way, I definitely made a mistake, I realize it, so could we stop with the aspersions now and just have an open dialogue?

[tiredofvampires]

I agree with Heather about seeing a counselor.

 

Have you actually been to one, or are you just assuming it'll be a waste? I've had many therapists over the course of a lifetime, and some are like talking to myself...while others create a real dialogue where you're asking hard questions of yourself.

 

Something has come out in this thread about the way you operate that goes beyond the issue of the incident itself. And even though it's a secondary issue in this thread, as far as your life goes, I see that it could be a primary one. And that is, you are so obstinate in defending yourself when something has come up for your self-scrutiny, you will continue to defend the indefensible to protect yourself and deflect the issue in every and any way possible, even at the cost of losing all consistency and logical integrity, retracting important statements, misrepresenting your own words, reinterpreting events, and using hyperbole (such as saying people are calling you a "monster"). The mental images I've had of you on this thread have alternated between that of a man clutching at straws to preserve a POV that you could not possibly honestly maintain, and an ostrich burying its head in the sand.

 

Even though you "got the point" that what you did was not appropriate, even until the bitter end you would not give up such tactics as calling out the audience here as being ignorant of the situation, appealing to the strange logic that since there is no proof this girl felt badly, it is unreasonable to assume she could feel bad, and flip-flopping about the nature of the event. First it was a fantasy, then it wasn't a fantasy. First you realized it was just "all sales", then you almost insisted that she seemed to be charmed by you sincerely, comparing it to being on the fence about someone you're into. First she was nervous and hesitant, then she wasn't at all. First, you found it thrilling, then you said you didn't because it was a bit scary for you. You asked us for opinions about you in a conflicted opening query, then said even though you were asking for opinions, you simply didn't agree with anyone's assessment because we are just strangers judging. You put this out on an anonymous forum to gauge what a community of strangers (who you've been a part of for years) would think, and then basically said this format is not conducive to a real understanding of what happened and that because we're strangers, our judgments are flawed. That's what we do here on ENA -- we evaluate and judge situations presented with limited information. And somehow, this whole situation -- as an exception to all other situations presented on ENA -- could not be given justice, you claimed, because of this format. You've blamed every other factor here, even the forum itself when all else failed, to disavow the censure.

 

What I'm getting at here is that this COULD BE AN IMPORTANT REALIZATION FOR YOU. It wasn't just WHAT you were presenting here, but HOW that made it increasingly hard for posters here to sympathize with you or relate to you. Someone used the word defiant. That is a good word. When someone defiantly seeks to rationalize behavior that is unequivocally bad judgment, continuing groundless diversionary strategies of the kind I mention, it becomes a matter no longer just about bad judgment, but of the unwillingness to recognize bad judgment, and remain in your own status quo of self-evaluation and self-validation.

 

To put it simply, in this thread you have come accross as impenetrable; at the cost of everything, clinging to your sinking ship just to maintain an idea about yourself.

 

And I would say that this could be a root cause of your continuing in your bad judgment around choosing women. Maybe the reason you keep doing it is because whatever you are doing wrong, you somehow remain so attached to who you want to be, who you think you are, what you want to be, why you are as you are, how you see yourself, that you cannot let any new information in. You seem to prefer being right to being able to change and learn, to be receptive to what other people are showing you about yourself.

 

So, as long as you stay in this box where you're protecting yourself from yourself and others, it will be very hard to identify what must change in you to develop better relationships and develop an active awareness about your interactions (which was certainly not happening in this massage parlor).

 

Maybe this thread illustrates the crux of a problem where after the fact, in retrospect, you might be able to concede, "I did this wrong, I'm bad at the decision(s) I make" -- but throughout the process you were not aware of yourself or the other person, were so busy/blinded going with your own feelings rather that input you're getting, both during making the bad judgment calls and later examining them, you are compelled to rationalize it all the way to yourself. And so, you’re liable to repeat history.

 

This would make you a very difficult therapy candidate, but if you could decide this process of rationalizing your choices that turn out badly is not serving you, you could open to what happens in your mind along the way that results in poor outcomes. Maybe you could find patterns and reasons behind your poor judgments and choices if you stopped the primary defense mechanism that turned this thread from an open, self-searching question into a display of obstinate pride and self-defense about your situation.

 

No relationship can be healthy in the face of such a dynamic, and no healthy choice for a relationship can be made with this being a leading component of your psyche.

 

I’m not spelling out a specific pattern in your relationships that goes wrong, because I don’t know what that would be. But I’m pointing toward a broader problem that may be driving and perpetuating those problems, whatever they may be in their specifics.

 

So I do think that exploring these walls in therapy would be beneficial. But yeah, first you'd have to break down the wall you have against therapy, and therefore, self-criticism. I see that as just another face of all this.

 

There is no point of self-reflection if once you do it "out loud," it just becomes a fight to maintain your status quo – because relationships don't play out in our own heads, the way we’d like to see them; they only play out with other people, out loud, as they really are.

 

This thread is about what you wanted a situation to be, in your own head, and how you’ve tried unsuccessfully to match that to the reality of what it actually was, all conflicting information and input be damned. This is a very serious and now graphic shortfall, evident in this thread, and I think this could lead you to some insights of how you’re working against yourself in your life.

 

But you’re likely to defend yourself in that, too. Which is precisely the conundrum, and the task ahead.

 

I don't think that getting a sexual release (not "affection", that's a euphemism) from a prostitute is going to advance you on this very challenging mission to get to the root of your issues, so that you don't need to pay for their "affection" anymore.

[itsallgrand]

I think it was a power trip and that grosses me out, honestly, I think it is wrong and sketchy as hell, and I don't turn my back on people like that.

 

Also, it's a horrible cliche. Man picking up - either for extras or sex or whatever - a woman 'straight off the boat' (though who comes in a boat, nowadays?!). That in itself gives me the ewwwws. Men with really crap self esteem and who can't get women normally - that's what I think.

 

Totally aware this is super judgmental but oh well. It's all very sordid and sketchy. Are you that guy??

 

And if you are going to argue that you are so delusional that you were honestly flattered and turned on by this, that's basically admitting to the above ^ . Someone sketch who isn't in reality at all, and the kind of guy prostitutes/female users just dream of finding.

 

I don't think she is a big victim in it either, because she did have a choice to say NO. I don't buy that cultural differences give a woman a free pass as far as their behavior and their complicity in shady dealings...I just don't...nor do I when it comes being in a difficult position...yes, it probably was an awkward and difficult position for her....but she could have said NO and kicked you out...if it means consequences for her, well, that's life. So she isn't excused in my book either for going along with this - she was unprofessional, foolish, and weak. She was using you too and using your power trip to try and make more money.

 

Both sketch. There I said it.

[tiredofvampires]

What I did may or may not have been right, depending on how it was percieved by the parties involved

 

And this is precisely what I am talking about, my friend.

 

After all this -- you cannot even say that what you did was not right, without disclaimers and caveats and non-committal maybe/maybe nots.

 

Apply this same MO to your relationships. You keep getting bad results. And saying that you make bad judgment calls. And that doesn't change.

 

Maybe because, "you may or may not be right", in those cases, even though the results are speaking for themselves.

 

Reality and the people you come into contact with are trying to show something to you and your response each time is "I may or may not be the one who is right" even though the end result stinks.

 

You'll have to change your accounting to yourself or nothing much will improve.

 

Edit: okay, wait, that was the beginning of your post. You started by saying there is no right or wrong, it's all a matter of opinion, you may or may not have been wrong -- and at the END you say you made a MISTAKE. Good that you can recognize it, bad that it was like raising the Titanic, and even in the same breath you're saying "the jury's out." So you see how this way of responding to life, this inconsistency and obfuscation, could be working against you? Not just in a debate with others, mind you -- but because you're not really being honest with YOURSELF about an interpersonal situation?

[CaliforniaGirl2222]

I just read this whole thread. You say you now understand and you get the point. I don't think you do. You are still trying to defend yourself.

 

You say "Nobody was there" "She liked me" "She told me to have sweet dreams" How does that justify what you did? She told you "NO" and you proceeded to TOUCH her waist, and guide her hand? You shouldn't have touched her at all!! I feel so sorry for this girl. It doesn't matter how nice she was towards you. I can bet my last dollar she did not want to touch your penis. What you did was not only wrong, it's illegal.

 

The fact is, you were a stranger to her. She didn't know you! Like others said, she was probably confused and didn't know what to do. If she said no, she will touch around it, why would you proceed to "guide" her hand towards your penis? No means no. It shouldn't matter if she was giggling while she said it. It doesn't change the meaning of the word no.

[jul-els]

TOV & it's all grand: Stuff for me to think about, for sure. The one thing that you seem to gloss over, TOV is that you are making assessments about my character based on an online thread, which is very far from being a comprehensive source of information. The reason for my defensiveness, perceived or otherwise, is due to my self-created uncomfortableness created by opening myself up freely to public aspersions. It's not easy to have a group of random unknown people label you a creep, perv, criminal, rapist or what have you. It is normal to not take something like that easily, especially when the medium of communication being used is very superficial. As far the issue of power that you and it's all grand seem to point upon, I think you may have something there. Maybe deep down it is a power thing, I'm not sure of that honestly. You may be on to something, maybe not. Perhaps it is something worth being investigated and delved into on a deeper level to see if there's anything there. I'll have to think about that.

[HeatherB]

I don't think the OP particularly cares about the experience or wellbeing of the sex worker he used here. To johns, I doubt a prostitute is much different than a florist. Just a professional who voluntarily provides a service for profit. No one worries overmuch about the experience of a waitress or server. So why worry about requesting what he perceives as a part of her job. Everything is taken at face value. (Don't chopquote me out of context: I'm not claiming this is correct, I'm saying I think it's close to what he is incorrectly assuming.)

 

If the OP had to face the likely reality of the prostitute's position in the exchange, it would ruin any erotic charge. If he had to actually see her grubby room and hear her true history and true opinions, the fantasy would be taken away from him. There's no perceived benefit to him to change his point of view. He doesn't care like most people. And no one can make him.

 

To him there's either crappy attempts at relationship or paid sex. It's an isolating and self-perpetuating lifestyle. Within that context, he will continue to defend his position and his fantasy because he does not believe viable alternatives exist.

[tiredofvampires]

The one thing that you seem to gloss over, TOV is that you are making assessments about my character based on an online thread, which is very far from being a comprehensive source of information. The reason for my defensiveness, perceived or otherwise, is due to my self-created uncomfortableness created by opening myself up freely to public aspersions. It's not easy to have a group of random unknown people label you a creep, perv, criminal, rapist or what have you. It is normal to not take something like that easily, especially when the medium of communication being used is very superficial.

 

First of all, if you are just talking about me, as a poster, I started with my first post saying I don't think you are "a creep" based on the things you've posted about before. But, I said what you did was creepy, and for a stranger like this masseuse, and if I were in her position not knowing you from Adam, I wouldn't be able to distinguish between "a creep" and "creepy."

 

I don't believe in any of my posts I've condemned your character, and I don't actually see anyone else as having done that. Everyone is responding to what you did, knowing that this is an isolated incident we're taking in. However, an isolated incident can be indicative of more troubling underlying problems. So I think people have taken this in the context you provided it in, and judged accordingly. They have been judging the action itself and the action itself is creepy, and to what extent this indicates some more pervasive tendency in you, I don't think has really entered into this conversation. People have brought up sexual harassment and rape, trafficking and so forth to show you what a slippery slope this is, but it has still revolved around this incident itself and what it was.

 

I know it's really hard to hear all this intense criticism of such a damning nature, but you actually precipitated a lot of it. As I said, above, it was your self-defensiveness that CAUSED you to become less and less of a sympathetic character. If you had said at the outset "WOW, what was I thinking! I feel terrible! You're right, I really shouldn't have touched her or pushed her. I feel like apologizing to her," the reaction from this crowd would have been 180 degrees different. You remained unmoved by the criticism, only pulling out more artillery, and that's what made people doubtful about your character. That you kept (and in some ways still seem to be keeping) resolutely to your account of things, trying to pass off the idea that she was merrily and cheerfully servicing you because she liked it or wanted it. That sends up HUGE red flags to people, so the indictments got stronger and stronger against you. And to be honest, the strength of your self-justifications started to make me even feel creepier about it/you.

 

You shot your foot, basically, if it was pardon and reassurance about your character you would have wanted.

[jul-els]

I believe you view of a prostitute is also biased in the other direction. Yes some are victims who are forced into the trade, but some do it entirely of their own volition and enjoy what they do. It can go either way. If I personally do go to a prostitute you are right in assuming it's because I want have relations without emotional attachment. That really is the point of prostitution whether or not it is right or wrong is another question and I believe the answer is not absolutely definitive, but rather a grey area. The bolded part is partially completely off the mark and partially spot on. The part that's off is that I don't believe there are other alternatives. I know there are, I just don't know if I can find them. And yes that is my problem, and something I need to fix if I want it to change.

[HeatherB]

I question the OP's character. Willfully ignoring the consequences of your actions is of low character in my opinion. But that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be treated with respect or to be given as many attempts at understanding as possible. It doesn't mean I can't try to imagine myself in his loafers for one sec and try to figure out why he would do such things. I still think he deserves the best, most useful advice people can come up with.

[jul-els]

No, I don't want pardon and reassurance. I am hoping for unbiased honesty, which I think has been provided. The things that were suggested by way of pointing out this slippery slope do make me feel bad and if they apply to my situation, I do feel sorry about that. Like I said, it's just not easy to be branded negatively by the random public without bristling at it. There is the possibility that this parlor does provide extra favors, though. That possibility does exist, judgements and laws aside. I'm just pointing that out. As I said in an earlier post, I have had suggestive things done to me at this parlor by asian women which I did not acknowledge when they happened, because I did feel unsure about it. That point has been brushed over though, in favor of pointing out once again my defensive nature and refusal to admit that what I did was in anyway unsavory, wrong or a mistake. Although I have done that many times in this thread, reapeatedly. But folks don't seem to see past their own indignation enough to see that and I'm not blaming anyone for that. What people feel is what they feel and they are entitled to that. I am just explaining my position, not rationalizing or defending it, even if it may be being perceived otherwise.