True or False Men should be providers/breadwinners?

[Stay_home]

Highly false.

[90_hour_sleep]

As Fudgie said, it's the sense of ENTILETMENT that simply because someone has popped a child out they don't have to ever work. Yes, caring for kids is a full time job in itself but you then don't EXPECT your spouse to carry the ENTIRE financial burden, including your extras. And women wonder why men don't want to get married...

 

I don't think it's strictly a sense of entitlement. There's a command structure where beliefs are concerned. We're programmed. And while we have free will after a certain point...that freedom is so heavily influenced by the initial programming that one could hardly consider it free will at all. We're domesticated from a young age. We believe what we believe because of repeated reinforcement. After awhile...we don't even need that reinforcement anymore. We become skilled at the art of autodomestication. No one needs to tell us how to act or behave anymore because we do it all for ourselves. That's how well-trained we are.

 

I don't think there are many people here that can claim that they don't have expectations for their partners. And while this particular expectation may feel a bit like a dated relic, it's no different than any other expectation. So, to ask someone to shut that off, and just 'see reason' seems unreasonable at best. A belief is not true or false, or right or wrong. It's a pattern of positive or negative reinforcement, depending on the circumstances.

 

Don't get me wrong. This way of thinking drives me a bit nutty too, OG. I just don't see much of a difference between this and just about every other expectation people have of each other. Entitlement is all about expectation. Whether it's reasonable or not depends entirely on the people involved. I live in a place where this mentality is very much thriving. And it works for people. Men want it as much as the women do. It's how they were raised. It's how their friends were raised. It's how they'll raise their own children. Beliefs are powerful...especially when they're there right from the beginning.

[OptomisticGirl]

I agree with you to an extent Sleep. We are all entitled to our beliefs and to find someone with that same belief - but the course of human nature has always been to evolve. Wasn''t very long ago women weren't allowed to vote or seen as an equal to man - that's obviously changed over time. A few generations back yes, it was engrained in them but with change always comes being engrained with a different set of values and beliefs - or in my case being raised in a set of values and going to the opposite set of values.

 

I don't expect anything of my husband I wouldn't expect of myself - to be faithful, loyal, loving, etc. - and as I said earlier in the thread, there is nothing wrong if a couple agrees to this arrangement. That doesn't mean however that a person shouldn't question why they feel a man should be this and that simply because he was born with a penis. Beliefs can change - or shall I say, you can be born with one set of beliefs or within a belief but grow to not follow that belief.

[90_hour_sleep]

Evolution. Now we're talking.

 

Something significant must have happened for you to trade in your old value system for something new.

 

For some people...that never happens.

 

So if the arrangement works well...is there really any reason to question it? If the partnership thrives...if two people grow and learn and love together...and within that bond find a state of being that makes the world a better place...does it really matter how they do it? Is a woman who never earns a penny in her life somehow less capable of sharing those things with a man?

[OptomisticGirl]

Evolution. Now we're talking.

 

Something significant must have happened for you to trade in your old value system for something new.

 

For some people...that never happens.

 

Not really. I'm a child of divorce - by all statistics I should loath marriage, forever shun it off, and not believe in love. But I don't loath marriage, I got married, and I am a realistic romantic. Even with all the negative that happened as a child I still looked at the fact not all marriages are like that. Same with me being the only none smoker in my entire family. I never had a defining moment per say where I was like 'God I'm not going to smoke!' I just never had the urge to pick one up, even though I was constantly around it as a child.

 

I agree, for most it's a never ending cycle of beliefs. But for some it is 'free will'. You can grow up with a set of beliefs but for whatever reason - be it something deep in you that disagrees with it or what you learned from looking at the rest of the world - not follow that set of belief.

[Batya33]

 

And yes obviously if a woman has more earning power, then it wouldn't make sense for her to be the stay at home parent. In my case, my bf has always made a little more than me anyway, and in addition to that it was important for us that our babies be breastfed. He can't breastfeed.

.

 

I'd be careful about using the nursing excuse -many women who breastfeed work outside the home - they pump while at work from what I understand.

[OptomisticGirl]

I'd be careful about using the nursing excuse -many women who breastfeed work outside the home - they pump while at work from what I understand.

 

I agree. My boss just had a baby and came back after 6 weeks - she pumps before work and on breaks and the baby sitter comes and picks the breast milk up.

[Seraphim]

Pumping does not work for all women though. It did not work that great for me.

[OptomisticGirl]

Pumping does not work for all women though. It did not work that great for me.

 

True, not all women can. But to say the woman can only be the one responsibile for the feeding is wrong. There are other alternatives that can take that burden off a mother if she chooses or has to go back to work.

[Seraphim]

If she chooses to. However some women want to be responsible for the feeding. Also some babies WILL NOT switch back and forth between breast and bottle nipple they simply won't. A bottle nipple is FAR easier to drink from than the breast and if they get used to doing something the easy way that is what they will do and they will never again nurse. If you do that at a very young age say 6 weeks, in most cases you won't get a baby to nurse again after they have been bottle fed. It depends on what the parents want. I know for my son he bawlked at the bottle at first and then once he had a successful feeding with it he NEVER returned to the breast ever. If he could be rewarded with one suck why would he make 5 sucks for the same reward? So it all depends if you want to share feeding responsibilities. But babies don't switch between bottle and breast back and forth depending on what is convenient for the parents, usually it is one or the other. Sometimes you will find the odd baby who will do both.

[OptomisticGirl]

This is the big thing - it's if the mother wants to share responsibility. It's wrong to say 'I'm the only one who can ever feed the baby while I'm breast feeding so therefore x, y, and z' if you aren't willing to share responisbility. There's a difference in parents not wanting to switch their babies between bottle and breast (most babies do have an issue with nipple confusion but there are some (like my niece) who do well with it on the transition from breast to bottle) and a mother simply saying 'it's only me, sorry'. IMO at least.

[Seraphim]

There are women though who want to breast feed entirely with no bottle at all, and in that case well yeah, then she is the only provider. If that is what the woman and her mate decide then "oh well" to everyone else. If Lost and her bf decided together she wants to breast feed only, no one else's opinion matters in the least.

[OptomisticGirl]

Of course it doesn't matter - but there are still options for a man to feed. To say there isn't options at least is wrong. Whether a couple takes those options is up to them - but there are options.

[Seraphim]

There are options, sure, but if Lost and her bf do not want to explore those options and she feels they are not options for HER, it is ok for her to say that.

[OptomisticGirl]

Of course. We don't know this though, as posters you can only comment on the information yor given.

[Seraphim]

Of course. We don't know this though, as posters you can only comment on the information yor given.

 

Here is what she said;

 

"And yes obviously if a woman has more earning power, then it wouldn't make sense for her to be the stay at home parent. In my case, my bf has always made a little more than me anyway, and in addition to that it was important for us that our babies be breastfed. He can't breastfeed.

.

 

So breast feeding is their priority.

[DN]

The important thing is that no one says "I get to make the decision and you have to go along with it because (insert reason/excuse of choice)".

 

None of the reasons given so far for any particular choice are insuperable and preclude any other choice. No one has a trump card to get what they want.

[lostnscared]

I'd be careful about using the nursing excuse -many women who breastfeed work outside the home - they pump while at work from what I understand.

 

For some reason I do not get enough milk from the pump for both babies. In addition I would have to pump every 1.5 to 2s due to the frequency in which my babies eat, and that doesn't include having to clean the equipments over and over again--I don't have time for that. It's too time consuming, doesn't get as much milk emptied, and the only pump I've known that is efficient enough to do this is a hospital grade pump(which I only had when I first had my babies to increase my supply). So it isn't an excuse, it's a valid reason. Breastfeeding was important to me and the bf, and pumping is not as efficient and actually takes more time to do then breastfeeding. I do pump if I know I'll be going somewhere but it isn't a very good alternative, to be doing throughout the day. If I had one baby pumping would be great; I don't.

[lostnscared]

Of course. We don't know this though, as posters you can only comment on the information yor given.

 

Victoria's correct. Pumping is good option if I'm going to be going somewhere and need someone to watch them. But to do throughout the day, everyday, would be far more difficult. I also don't like pumping very much.

[lostnscared]

I agree. My boss just had a baby and came back after 6 weeks - she pumps before work and on breaks and the baby sitter comes and picks the breast milk up.

 

Also not every job is breastfeeding friendly, or gives you the office with the privacy to do such. You have to find a company that gives you privacy and is okay with that.

[lostnscared]

True, not all women can. But to say the woman can only be the one responsibile for the feeding is wrong. There are other alternatives that can take that burden off a mother if she chooses or has to go back to work.

 

This is correct, however I neer said that women are the only ones responsible for feeding. All I said, was that I'm the only one responsible for it at this point in time, because breastfeeding is a priority for us. For others, who know's, but my boyfriend doesn't produce milk, and as I said beofore pumping isn't a great alternative for us. Yes I could switch to formula, to make things easier for him, if he wanted to stay at home, but again for health reasons and tradition, we both believed and agreed that it would be better if I breastfed.

[lostnscared]

Also, if you remember, when I first had the babies, I complained about breastfeeding because it was painful. My bf still wanted me to do it--it was very important to him. So it's not as if I'm holding the trump card here, he WANTED me to. Just as he WANTS me at home. It's an arrangement we both agreed on. And again there are other reasons beyond breastfeeding that I am the one at home and he is the one at work.

[mindi]

I don't think it is fair to generalize that "most" daycares are horrible and full of mean and bitter people. Of course there are mean and bitter people everywhere, but I would argue that most are not. Many daycares also provide cameras and the parents can stream the entire day on their computer.

 

My son sees a sitter/in home daycare once or twice a week and I trust her immensely. My child appears to enjoy going to her and always has a smile when I drop him off and pick him up. I'm very glad that I use her for my child and also for myself.

 

It might just be where I live that the daycares are really bad. We are behind the times, no cameras in daycares here. You are lucky that your son has someone who he is happy with and you trust. My husband and I are home with our two year old son as much as possible, on the two days that we aren't home, my mother drives an hour each way to pick him up to spend a couple of nights with her, just to keep him out of daycares. We are both very concerned about leaving him with someone else until he is much older.

 

 

As Lonewing said, "To suggest that one parent is more made for the position or more nurturing, kinder and soft based upon their sex is the one thing I cannot agree with you upon. This is far from true..." I said this is not always the case, but I certainly feel that more women than men hold the position of primary caregiver for a child. Times have greatly changed and men are participating more in childcare than ever before. Not all women have these qualities of course, but I feel that a lot of them do. I have also been told that I am too soft when it comes to parenting, so I agree, there needs to be more balance.

[Fudgie]

lost,

 

If it's an agreement that you BOTH genuinely want (rather than one being roped into it by the other or whatever) and neither side feels like they are ENTITLED to whatever treatment, then it's not an issue. It's what works for you.

[mindi]

I saw as well.. there is the subject of breastfeeding. Yes women can pump, and babies can be bottle fed, but sometimes it becomes and issue. The baby can become fussy about which she/he prefers. If your baby decides he won't take a bottle, what do you do? He might not drink as much during the day when the mother is at work. Or it can become the opposite! It happened to me since I was extremely stressed about breastfeeding. My son had jaundice when he was a couple of days old and the doctor at the hospital completely freaked me out about it. I saw another doctor who said "oh he will be fine!" but I became worried and obsessed with the idea that he wasn't drinking enough. I decided to pump and bottle feed so I could measure what he was getting. I would then nurse the rest of the time. What ended up happening is my son didn't want to breastfeed, he chose the bottle. Somehow, no matter how much I pumped, I couldn't get enough milk to satisfy him. It might have been something to do with hormones released while the child actually nurses.. I'm not sure. I was warned this could happen by a nurse actually, so it isn't something I just came up with.

 

 

I eventually had no choice but to switch to formula. I felt like a total failure as nursing was something I felt strongly about. It made things easier because I had more freedom to leave him at home with my mother while I went out with my husband and later when I made the choice to go to college, but I was so depressed about it. Even just talking about the situation now makes me feel upset.