True or False Men should be providers/breadwinners?

[DN]

Too many people find ways to solve breast-feeding issues for it to become a valid excuse for mothers to become permanent stay-at-home parents. There may be a tiny percentage where it is a necessity but for most it simply isn't valid.

 

For many people it isn't even an option no matter what the circumstances, they simply have to work outside the home.

[Batya33]

I think the important piece here is that both the OP and her boyfriend want the breastfeeding and this arrangement - a separate matter is that the OP also believes that the tradition that dictates that the man be the provider and the woman be the full time parent is the right way to think about that situation. That will only become an issue if her boyfriend changes his mind about the current arrangement and doesn't agree with the tradition as a presumption. I think the cousin's about face about what she wants out of a future marriage is a huge red flag and if I were her fiancee I'd have to wonder if she'll be like that about other major decisions too. I'd proceed with caution, if at all, if I were him.

[DN]

There is also an issue about whether people really want what they agree to, sometimes people feel pressured by their partner, by family, by other people or by perceived societal expectations to agree to things that they would probably not agree to given a really free choice.

[Seraphim]

That is the thing a pump is nowhere as effective as a baby. Also too you have TWO babies. I remember my son ate every 2 hours 24/7 for months on end. I could not even FATHOM what it would take to sterilize the equipment that often. It would be MENTAL. Also would you have ALL that time at work to pump???? I can not imagine anyone's employer giving them 15 mins to a half hour off every 2 hours to pump. Not going to happen. Or maybe spend your entire lunch time in the bathroom doing that so others are not "offended". There is a delight.

 

Lost good for you that you and your bf are doing it the way You BOTH want and have the opportunity to. I am SO glad I had the opportunity to some things I wanted that I felt were important as well. I feel my son is far better off for it. If you are both happy with your arrangement that is all that matters because no one else in society is paying for your arrangement.

[OptomisticGirl]

Most working mothers pump milk before they go to work.

[Seraphim]

OG it depends on how often your baby eats as to the supply. Milk works ENTIRELY on supply and demand. Baby does not nurse, milk dries up that is the way it works. You HAVE to pump to keep up the supply. It also matters how old your baby is as to how often they nurse. If they nurse once or twice a day because they eat food you only need to pump once or twice. If you baby eats every 2 hours this pumping once before work is not going to cut it.

[Batya33]

Most working mothers pump milk before they go to work.

Most of the working mothers I know had to pump at work.

[OptomisticGirl]

It DOES work - if you have no other option and you want to continue to give your child breast feed milk, it can. I had a friend who pumped every morning before work and her child ate 2-3 hours apart when she had to go back to work for a 6 hour shift. It can be done. Is it inconvienant? Sure - but not everyone can stay at home with the kids until they are past breast feeding or utnil they are in pre school.

[OptomisticGirl]

Most of the working mothers I know had to pump at work.

 

We have a few working moms who pump at our job (but we are a breastfeeding friendly place and have a little area for moms to do so). I know a lot of moms who have to do it before work because (unfortunately) their jobs isn't so nice about it.

[Batya33]

There is also an issue about whether people really want what they agree to, sometimes people feel pressured by their partner, by family, by other people or by perceived societal expectations to agree to things that they would probably not agree to given a really free choice.

 

That's where you and I differ -they are both adults and need to speak up if they feel pressured or take the consequences (i.e. feeling resentful or unhappy) of not speaking up. Often I agree a totally "free" choice is not an option or realistic especially in the OP's situation where the pregnancy was unplanned. It depends I would think on how free a choice it was, how mature the decision maker was, how honest their communication is.

[tinkerbellkj]

I don't breastfeed, but my coworker/friend had her daughter 10 days after my son was born and she did breast feed for 7 months. Granted we work from home a lot, so it's a non issue most of them time, but in the times that we did have to go to the office she would have to go pump. My work was awesome about it (they are pretty flexible about everything in general, though) and no one would blink an eye when she would disappear to her car for a while to pump. But, I will say that I haven't heard the same for many other people in other jobs.

[Seraphim]

It DOES work - if you have no other option and you want to continue to give your child breast feed milk, it can. I had a friend who pumped every morning before work and her child ate 2-3 hours apart when she had to go back to work for a 6 hour shift. It can be done. Is it inconvienant? Sure - but not everyone can stay at home with the kids until they are past breast feeding or utnil they are in pre school.

 

Not every shift is 6 hours though. Also too if they are skipping pumping and feeding then their supply drops. That is just the way the body works. My bet is they also formula supplement as well because their supply dropped.

[OptomisticGirl]

Not every shift is 6 hours though. Also too if they are skipping pumping and feeding then their supply drops. That is just the way the body works.

 

No but I know someone who did it for a 8 hour shift as well. Yes, it is how the body works but again, not everyone can stay at home for however long they want until they get done breast feeding the kids - sometimes that's the only option.

[Seraphim]

No but I know someone who did it for a 8 hour shift as well. Yes, it is how the body works but again, not everyone can stay at home for however long they want until they get done breast feeding the kids - sometimes that's the only option.

 

I know that it not the way it works for everyone. HOWEVER, it does not change how the body works. It is supply and demand. Yes, the kid is getting SOME breast milk but not all they would have because that is just how it works. They HAVE to be supplementing because otherwise it makes no sense. Either that or they are pumping all evening and in the morning. Yes, I realize a lot of people HAVE to work. I also realize some people who HAVE to work WANT to breast feed, BUT if you go back to work when your baby is 6 weeks old for 8 or 10 hour shifts and you are not pumping DURING that time period your milk supply will fast run dry and that is just how it goes. There will just be not enough and then they are forced to supplement. Are they breast feeding? Sure. Is it working at optimum? No. That is what I am saying.

[OptomisticGirl]

It may not be working at optimum but it's what they have to do because they want to continue breast feeding. As I said, not everyone has the oppurtunity or the maternity leave to stay out for the length of time they would like to finish up 'proper' breast feeding. You do what ya gotta do.

[DN]

That's where you and I differ -they are both adults and need to speak up if they feel pressured or take the consequences (i.e. feeling resentful or unhappy) of not speaking up. Often I agree a totally "free" choice is not an option or realistic especially in the OP's situation where the pregnancy was unplanned. It depends I would think on how free a choice it was, how mature the decision maker was, how honest their communication is.

That's all very well but that isn't how it works for many people. For instance:

 

- if a man wants his wife to stay at home and look after the kids but she wants to go out to work, he is accused of being a neanderthal who expects his wife to be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

- if a man want to stay home and look after the kids he is accused of being a lazy bum, a bad provider, a poor excuse for a man, and not only that, he can't breastfeed.

- if a man wants his wife to go out to work but she wants to stay home, he is accused of being selfish and greedy and not caring about his children's quality of life and upbringing.

 

- if a woman wants to stay home and look after the kids she is accused of being lazy.

- if she wants to go out to work when having kids she is often accused of being a bad mother (unless there are economic reasons)

- if a woman doesn't want to breastfeed she is accused of being a bad mother.

 

Very often these accusations will come from partners, parents, siblings, existing children, friends, peers, co-workers, media, and other sources and for some people they are hard to ignore.

[lostnscared]

OG,

 

Obviously YES pumping and breastfeeding CAN be done in a work environment, if a woman has no choice. However, as victoria has said, breast milk production is about supply and demand. I nurse on demand. I could not nurse on demand if I was at work, nor is a pump as efficient as breastfeeding. Yes many women DO breastfeed at their offices/jobs. I never said otherwise. However, most doctors will also tell you that pumping is not as efficient as breastfeeding, that you aren't able to nurse on demand, and that every baby is different. I nurse every 1.5 to 2 hours, everyday, except at night. Whereas I was told that by almost 4 months my babies should be eating every 4 hours. What does that tell you? That every child is different. The same goes for breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is not the same for every mother. Nor is the frequency. Yes you CAN pump before going to work, and if you're an a "breastfeeding" friendly job you can pump during work. Millions of women do it, and if I HAD to go to work I would have no choice but to do that as well. However, I'm not going to work. I don't have to. And I HAVE the option to stay home and nurse, without having to use a pump. And breastfeeding is not the SOLE reason I stay at home. As I said on the other page, breastfeeding is simply ONE thing my boyfriend cannot do. He also makes more than I do. Does not know how to cook. Hates not moving and working, etc. It made little sense for him to be a stay at home dad. He loves kids, YES. He is good at cleaning YES. But other than, there was no other valid reasons for him to be a stay at home parent. It just so happens, that by me staying at home, I can breastfeed on demand, I can cook, clean, take care of the home, manage the finances, and take care of our babies. This is what me and him both wanted. Breastfeeding is a SMALL part of the overall equation. If it was solely based on breastfeeding then I would be working--the fact is, that it isn't.

Not every woman has the option to stay at home. That much I understand. That is why pumping is great option for THOSE women, but in my post I wasn't talking about those women, I was simply pointing out one reason as to why a man may not be a stay at home parent. There are many others, depending on the man, the relationship, and the child/children.

[lostnscared]

Thank you Victoria.

 

Unfortunately anyone who has never breastfeed or had a child before would not understand this. I too was clueless about how breastfeeding work, until I had babies. It isn't as simple as it seems--i.e. I just got back from the mall with my mom and the babies, while I was at the mall, one of the babies was hungry, I had to feed right there in Nordstroms just to get her not to scream at the top of her lungs. She ate at 12:00(right before we got out the car to go inside) and was hungry an hour later. Why? Who know's. But since I nurse on demand I was able to feed her right away. And yes pumping is not effective as breastfeeding. The breasts know the babies, the way they suckle, when they are near the chest, their cries, the frequency of when they eat, etc--it all leads to milk production and factors into milk supply. A lot of people don't realize that breastfeeding is a lot more complex than it seems. But yes if a woman has no choice, then obviously pumping or formula is the way to go.

[Seraphim]

I fed on demand as well. When you do that pumping is almost useless. Plus unless someone has breast fed they do not realize that hey your body is going to respond at the most awkward times whether you are at work or where ever. I remember being soaked right down my whole front standing in the grocery line because ANOTHER baby cried, not even mine. The brain and body responds to when the baby wants to be fed, hears your own baby or another baby cry and let down happens. Also too if you go past feeding time your breasts end up hard as rocks literally and on fire, it is not exactly a comfy state to be in. Yes, it is far more complex than people realize until they actually do it for themselves.

[lostnscared]

There is also an issue about whether people really want what they agree to, sometimes people feel pressured by their partner, by family, by other people or by perceived societal expectations to agree to things that they would probably not agree to given a really free choice.

 

This is true. And this is why it's important that it is discussed beforehand so that both people can discuss what they would prefer. This is why it's also important to find a mate that wants the same things as you. In my case I had been in a relationship several years before getting pregnant. And we had always talked about me being a stay at home parent if I was to get pregnant. It was a mutual decision. However, when a person gets pregnant by someone that does not have the same things in mind, or it is not discussed thoroughly then yes I can see it being an issue of pressure. But as Bataya said, in those cases, the person who does not want that sort of arrangement needs to speak up.

[DN]

So many women make the breastfeeding issue work that it seems those who don't are in the tiny minority - and please don't play the "if you don't breast-feed, you don't know"card because no sensible person will be impressed by that.

[lostnscared]

I fed on demand as well. When you do that pumping is almost useless. Plus unless someone has breast fed they do not realize that hey your body is going to respond at the most awkward times whether you are at work or where ever. I remember being soaked right down my whole front standing in the grocery line because ANOTHER baby cried, not even mine. The brain and body responds to when the baby wants to be fed, hears your own baby or another baby cry and let down happens. Also too if you go past feeding time your breasts end up hard as rocks literally and on fire, it is not exactly a comfy state to be in. Yes, it is far more complex than people realize until they actually do it for themselves.

 

Yep. People often get upset at mothers nursing in public, but with babies when their hungry, their hungry. They don't care where you are. And I've had that happen to me as well(hearing another baby cry and it causing me to leak). I've woken up with engorged breasts, when I did not feed when I needed to. My breasts actually hurt, when my milk comes in, which signals to me that it's time to feed. If I were at work I'd have to pump quite frequently to keep up, and again that means constantly cleaning the breastfeeding pieces.

[Seraphim]

Yep. People often get upset at mothers nursing in public, but with babies when their hungry, their hungry. They don't care where you are. And I've had that happen to me as well(hearing another baby cry and it causing me to leak). I've woken up with engorged breasts, when I did not feed when I needed to. My breasts actually hurt, when my milk comes in, which signals to me that it's time to feed. If I were at work I'd have to pump quite frequently to keep up, and again that means constantly cleaning the breastfeeding pieces.

 

I would just be happy you are both happy that you are able to do this the way you want.

[Seraphim]

So many women make the breastfeeding issue work that it seems those who don't are in the tiny minority - and please don't play the "if you don't breast-feed, you don't know"card because no sensible person will be impressed by that.

 

DN, it is not a question of some not being able to make it work. Some of us are happy we got to do it the way WE thought was necessary and the way OUR spouses agreed to do it. If that bothers others , oh well.

[lostnscared]

So many women make the breastfeeding issue work that it seems those who don't are in the tiny minority - and please don't play the "if you don't breast-feed, you don't know"card because no sensible person will be impressed by that.

 

Yes, because they don't have a choice. I've talked to many women that HAD to switch to formula once they went back to work, because they couldn't make breastfeeding/pumping work. Some can, some can't. But when you don't have to "make it work" and have the opportunity to stay at home or breastfeed exclusively(without having to pump) then you aren't in the same situation. Again in my case I don't have to work, so I don't have to worry about pumping. And again if breastfeeding was the SOLE reason why a woman may stay at home as opposed to man, then yes I'd say that it may not be enough to warrant the mom staying at home, however usually there are several reasons as to why a mom may stay at home as opposed to a man. Breastfeeding may be one of several reasons, but yes it is something a woman can do that a man can't. He can however get the infant a bottle of pumped breast-milk, it just isn't the same as breastfeeding. And yes there are other benefits to breastfeeding beyond just the "milk"--it creates a bond between the mom and the baby, it offers comfort, etc. Sometimes I find myself comfort nursing, or when one is upset offering my breast to soothe them. But really breastfeeding is not the only reason why on average a woman may stay at home moreso than a man does. Again that depends on the couple.