True or False Men should be providers/breadwinners?

[lady00]

I recently visited a different website relating to dating and relationships and there was a question for men to answer anonymously about division of labor in marriage. The overwhelming response was that the woman should stay home and be the primary caregiver to the children, the men should earn the money, the woman should do the "womanly" chores and the men should do the "manly" chores (such as fixing things). The responders did not simply click a button, rather they wrote out short responses. Only one response alluded to any sort of equal 50/50 split. That particular site is targeted at an audience from a particular cultural background. I will not say which because I think it's beside the point and I don't think it's productive to generalize about any group or culture.

 

Seeing these poll results scared me. I don't see how such an arrangement would be a "free ride" or in any way good for me. Instead, what I see is that if I lived my life this way and if, goodness forbid, the relationship did not work out, even though I have a professional degree, I would not be anywhere near as competitive as my peers because of the time taken out of the work force. I think this is so common it's almost a cliche. It's not a good deal for men either because even though courts are increasingly moving away from things like lifetime alimony, even the fighting over it is a huge headache in and of itself. My point is, people are saying this point of view is coming exclusively from women (it isn't -- some of the people pushing it are women, some are men) and that it's a great deal for women. In my mind, it's very likely to be a disaster for both people in the relationship, especially (but not necessarily only) if the relationship doesn't work out. I have nothing against stay at home parents. That isn't the point of this post. But I think the "traditional" arrangement doesn't work in today's world and people who any do version of it successfully have done so because they have adapted and changed with the times.

[OptomisticGirl]

Very well said Lady. I agree there is nothing wrong with being a SAHM - I plan on being one for the first six months of our chldren's lives! - but if partners want the mother to at home forever that's their choice. I personally wouldn't do it but as we have said, if it works for the couple it works for them. The only things I see it becomng a negative is when

 

a) a woman expects a man to be the sole bread winner ONLY because of his gender. Not based on his income vs. her income or which would be better to stay at home but simply because he has penis.

 

b) the woman only wants the man to work but refuses to downsize their lifestyle and live within that one income.

[Lonewing]

You forgot C)...

 

c) the woman wants the man to pay all the bills and then use whatever is left over for her entertainment - while she and she alone makes all of the domestic decisions, asside form the 'hard' decisions, at which point she wants him to take iniative and do it for her...

 

Thankfully there is an array of women and types!!

[Unknown1607307972]

I see nothing wrong with being a real SAH parent if that is what the couple are happy with. I don't have kids but even I have experienced how difficult it can be to look after children, doing it all day every day would be incredibly hard! If the parent at home is doing his/her part by taking care of the kids, cleaning, cooking, etc then that is totally fair. If both people in this relationship are happy with the way things run then that is totally fine.

 

Personally I don't see anything wrong with childcare as long as the parents make sure they also spend quality time with the child themselves, so if I had kids they probably would have some sort of childcare. I understand though that for many other couples it is important that the child has a parent at home with them so they would need to survive off one income for a while. The couple needs to be realistic about what they can and can't really afford on one income and if they can stick to that budget then great, no problems there. It's only a problem if 1) A woman thinks her husband/boyfriend should provide for her while she stays at home just because he is male, even if he isn't ok with that arrangement or 2) The woman wants to stay at home, the man agrees, but one of them can't stick to the more limited budget they have from cutting down to living off one income.

[Batya33]

To sort of follow up on this last post (I was going to add this before I read it) I would think there's a huge red flag if the conversation on this topic is so focused on one partner stating "I expect you to do X" in that entitlement way, especially (and I know some might disagree) if the entitlement has to do with "you will make all the money, including for all my extras and I will be a full time parent/homemaker and never seek outside work". Totally different if it's what the couple wants for themselves - whatever makes them happy despite the downsides mentioned here - i.e. the "breadwinner" then has a level of control that might interfere with an equal dynamic in the relationship -but to each his own.

[Seraphim]

I find it odd that people expect it because someone is male. I don't "expect" anything. I worked full time from the time I was 16 to 43 even while in high school and university and having a young child. I had to change my working hours to way earlier in the day so my son could profit even though it was hugely detrimental to me physically and emotionally.Then my husband asked me to move with him in our military life because for 5 years I had stayed in our home town to make things more stable for our son, while my husband moved on to where he had to go. So 16 months ago we all moved together. This town is very small with very limited employment. My husband said it is easier for him to do his job knowing that his son has everything he needs and his mother to go to if he needs support. This year I found out I had chronic mandibular osteomyelitis and other health problems making it hard for me to work and so I have not done so since I moved. I don't think I am "entitled" to anything but I feel as a family you fight and win together. You can not throw injured members to the wayside. So just as I supported him through endless mental illness he is supporting me now. It is best for OUR family. In the past 16 months we have been here my husband has been gone for 6 months of it so far and has another 2 to go. True my son may be a teenager, but he is also a disabled person in terms of learning and sociability. He needs a little more support than most. I do not feel bad at all for taking this down time to improve my health and keep my family moving forward.

[OptomisticGirl]

And that was the whole crux of this whole thread (before we got derailed on other topics) was that fine, if a family wants the wife to stay at home more power to them. I have an opinion on why I wouldn't but that doesn't make me right or them wrong - where I see the problme is when it's expected simply because the husband drew the card of being a male.

[Honey Pumpkin]

I was thinking about this earlier. I don't know if this is relevant, but one third of marriages will end in divorce. I think it is potentially high risk for one partner to remain at home full time and rely on the other for their livelihood after the children are grown. If the marriage ends, and the children are teenagers or older, there won't be maintenance awarded, and that person (whether male or female) has been effectively deskilled and is expected to make a competitive living when they haven't worked for years. Maybe this arrangement needs a strong pre-nuptual in place? I'm from the UK, so maybe the law is different where you guys are. But I have seen many middle-aged women who raised children who have now left home, and their partner divorces them. They are not entitled to huge amounts of money because there is no child care involved, but equally they are relatively young, and have no hope of making money either. The reverse is true, this is not a sexist argument.

 

I dunno, I am used to earning my living. I would feel incredibly vulnerable without that, but it's of course up to individual couples. I just personally think that once the children go to school it makes sense for both partners to work, not for one to do all the employed work.

[lady00]

And that was the whole crux of this whole thread (before we got derailed on other topics) was that fine, if a family wants the wife to stay at home more power to them. I have an opinion on why I wouldn't but that doesn't make me right or them wrong - where I see the problme is when it's expected simply because the husband drew the card of being a male.

 

What about when men expect a woman to do certain things because she drew the card of being the female? This problem works both ways and in either case it's a problem, IMO. There are plenty of men out there who expect the woman to stay at home and be the primary child-care giver and would quite frankly rather not be too involved in caring for the children. That's as much of a problem as women feeling a sense of entitlement.

[Seraphim]

What about when men expect a woman to do certain things because she drew the card of being the female? This problem works both ways and in either case it's a problem, IMO.

 

Yes, it is a problem either way. There are many many men that expect women to do 90% of the household work and child care despite working full time just because they are female.

[OptomisticGirl]

What about when men expect a woman to do certain things because she drew the card of being the female? This problem works both ways and in either case it's a problem, IMO.

 

Well exactly. Expecting of either gender simply because they are that gender is wrong.

[Fudgie]

Yes, it is a problem either way. There are many many men that expect women to do 90% of the household work and child care despite working full time just because they are female.

 

Yes, this was my dad/mom, and they both worked. Not a wonder that I was raised by a nanny. No way she could do it all.

 

I love my dad and bless him, but there were only a few times that he had to make dinner for us (my mom was at work, nanny was sick or something) and he GRIPED so much about it like it was some horrific thing. And then dinner wasn't that good.

[Seraphim]

Yeah, my mother did 98% of everything at home when we were small despite working full time as well. Then when she worked away from home her work fell to me. Raising my brother and doing the house work and going to school full time and working full time myself. My dad sat on his rump in front of the TV after work or he was in bed sleeping.

[Lonewing]

To sort of follow up on this last post (I was going to add this before I read it) I would think there's a huge red flag if the conversation on this topic is so focused on one partner stating "I expect you to do X" in that entitlement way, especially (and I know some might disagree) if the entitlement has to do with "you will make all the money, including for all my extras and I will be a full time parent/homemaker and never seek outside work". Totally different if it's what the couple wants for themselves - whatever makes them happy despite the downsides mentioned here - i.e. the "breadwinner" then has a level of control that might interfere with an equal dynamic in the relationship -but to each his own.

 

Absolutely!

[mindi]

Hey guys,

 

I haven't read all of the posts! (there are over 100!!) but this topic actually something I have been thinking about a lot lately, as a first time mother and first time wife.

 

I have come to realize that most children today are being raised by daycares, babysitters and nannies. Their parents who take over after work are tired, stressed out, etc. They do the bare necessities for their children because they are worn out! The strain is obvious to the children who want nothing more than to be with mommy and daddy. Most daycares are horrible, the children do not get enough attention, the caretakers are mean and bitter. They tell little boys not to cry or act like girls. They deny smaller toddlers their bottle (if they are still on it) because they are "too old". These are just some examples, not everywhere, but most places (you would be so surprised how many). I know this because my mother has worked at daycares with special needs children.

 

So how does this tie into the topic? I think it is obvious. The mother is working, the parents are divorced, or whatever the reason. I am not saying that dads can't stay home with the kids, not at all! A mother however, is made for the position. We are naturally nurturing, kind, soft, etc. This is obviously not true for everyone, some women are not cut out for it, maybe the dad has more experience from helping with siblings, etc. My point is that I feel ONE parent should at least be staying home to take care of children.

 

I know that is almost impossible today. In a lot of cases, one income is NOT enough to take care of the family. Both parents are forced to work to feed their children. Some are lucky and have trusted relatives helping out, but a lot aren't.

 

Maybe it would be nice to live in a world where it is as simple as the husband works and the wife stays home to raise children. (or the oposite)

[OptomisticGirl]

As much as I love children - and have been around them since I was a child myself - I could not be a full time SAHM for the rest of my life. The thought of that just makes me stomach churn for some reason....

[tinkerbellkj]

I don't think it is fair to generalize that "most" daycares are horrible and full of mean and bitter people. Of course there are mean and bitter people everywhere, but I would argue that most are not. Many daycares also provide cameras and the parents can stream the entire day on their computer.

 

My son sees a sitter/in home daycare once or twice a week and I trust her immensely. My child appears to enjoy going to her and always has a smile when I drop him off and pick him up. I'm very glad that I use her for my child and also for myself.

[Batya33]

I don't think it is fair to generalize that "most" daycares are horrible and full of mean and bitter people. Of course there are mean and bitter people everywhere, but I would argue that most are not. Many daycares also provide cameras and the parents can stream the entire day on their computer.

 

My son sees a sitter/in home daycare once or twice a week and I trust her immensely. My child appears to enjoy going to her and always has a smile when I drop him off and pick him up. I'm very glad that I use her for my child and also for myself.

 

Totally agree -was just thinking about a little boy who I took care of in daycare- I was around 20 and his mother invited me to his bday party because we got so attached. I thought most of the staff there were loving and nurturing. And I feel the same about the babysitter we found who we've used occasionally for date nights -what a find -took awhile to find the right person but yes there are very lovely,caring people out there to help with raising children.

[Lonewing]

To suggest that one parent is more made for the position or more nurturing, kinder and soft based upon their sex is the one thing I cannot agree with you upon. This is far from true...

 

I certainly agree with you, though, in that one parent in the home will reap greater rewards than both parents pursuing professional pursuits over everything else first. Once the kids get to kindergarten, then its prime time for both parents to be back in the work force, but even then one parent would do well to be in a lower capacity job so that in the event that the kids get sick, or anything comes up - like after school activities, there's a parent there to cater to the kids needs.

 

But this role does not need to be filled with a woman.It jsut needs to be filled with a parent. If there's a grandparent at home, well, perhaps this is even better...

[Batya33]

I also think it's a stereotype that women are necessarily more nurturing or that children need that kind of "soft" nurturing as a steady diet - balance works best (well it's best if each parent doesn't have a one note style of parenting but is flexible to the situation but as long as there's balance between the two parents that works too). What doesn't work IMO is where the non-full-time parent isn't even a part-time parent - that can be harmful/confusing to the child especially if the full time parent is ill or away and the child isn't used to the other parent's parenting style.

[lostnscared]

I agree with you--one parent staying home is better than none, however which gender it will be, truly depends on the marriage. I would not be okay with my bf being a stay at home dad, for my own personal reasons. And I know a lot of women that feel that way--they'd rather be the ones that stay at home. I know that in my family it's seen as negative and bummy for a man to not work. I have an uncle that never worked, and took care of his children, and everyone thought he was not a "real man" and a "bum", and that my aunt was weak for staying with him and not forcing him to get a job. Unfortunately this mindset(though not as common) still exists.

[lostnscared]

I agree with you.My personal beliefs are that one parent needs to be at home when the children are very young, for a variety of reasons(most which are personal for me). I personally do not want to put any of my children in daycare--also for a lot of reasons, but I am okay with a nanny or babysitter if I had to make a decision about childcare while I worked.

 

I remember reading a study last month that suggested that women are less happy then men, one of the reasons was because many women are doing it all these days--work, clean, cook, and take care of the family. It can be difficult balancing work/life and it's often stressful and draining. I don't want to be a supermom right now--though if I were forced to, and I wasn't able to stay at home, I would. I think it's nice to have one parent at home, keeping things together, and taking care of the little ones, while the other makes the money and provides financially. Obviously when the children get older, I do personally believe both parents should work(if not full time, one can work part time while the kids are in school).

[lostnscared]

Because it depends how he defines "extra money" -maybe he wants to put all his extra money in savings. That's his perogative if you believe you're entitled to have him provide for the family financially. Once you have the entitlement perspective then my guess is he's going to be less inclined to want to pay for the extras.

 

Congratulations on your upcoming marriage!

 

Usually he won't mind too much using whatever money he has left over, for me to get things, because he likes for me to look nice, but if I were asking every month I know it would be an issue. I don't. A majority of the time, if I don't ask him, my mom will usually give me a little extra money to get some things, so that I don't have to bother my bf for money.

 

Thank you.

[lostnscared]

You do have a good point. Which is why to me it's always been important that before I ever had children, I had a college degree, some sort of skill-set that would pay well, and a career prior to having children. That way, even if I wasn't as competitive as my peers, I at least had something to fall back on. But one of the ways I plan to "compensate" for the years I won't be working, is simply going back to school in a year, or within two years, while my kids are in preschool, and taking some courses/getting certified in some uncommon skill, to put myself ahead. Also volunteering and doing side jobs here and there(for my field it is possible to do this).

[lostnscared]

You present another side to it--but I don't think I ever said that staying at home was free lunch. It isn't. It's hard work(for me at least). There are times when it isn't, for instance when they are sleep(like they are now) and when I have help, etc. But cooking, cleaning, taking care of two small babies, and the other variety of things I'll do throughtout the week, is not a "free lunch". Just as I realize that my bf has to work hard to bring home money, I have to work hard (but in a different way) to keep the home together and the babies taken care of.

 

And yes obviously if a woman has more earning power, then it wouldn't make sense for her to be the stay at home parent. In my case, my bf has always made a little more than me anyway, and in addition to that it was important for us that our babies be breastfed. He can't breastfeed.

 

And every man is different. I know some very traditional men, that still would prefer their wifes stay at home. My dad was one of them. In my boyfriend's extended family this is true as well--a lot of the men have their wives stay at home. Every man is different. I do know some men who expect their wives to work too, or who strive for the equal partnership the way you do. What it comes down to, is finding a mate that wants similar things in life as you. I wouldn't have gotten with a man that expected me to work during the first years of my babies life(not unless I had to for emergency reasons such as him losing his job, getting a paycut or being ill). I made sure that I discussed with my bf before I ever even got pregnant, that I wanted to stay at home, and he expressed the same opinion. WE both also agreed that when the kids are old enough I would either go back to school or work. But I know a woman who 4 weeks after having her baby, had to go back to work--her husband sort of expected her to.