True or False Men should be providers/breadwinners?

[Seraphim]

I agree, I did not have to go back right away either, because of the benefits of where I live. That way I got to be at home and be with my son. I enjoyed that time a lot and I think it was beneficial to him and to me. People who DO get to stay home for a bit however should not be made to feel bad because they do get to.

[lostnscared]

I agree, I did not have to go back right away either, because of the benefits of where I live. That way I got to be at home and be with my son. I enjoyed that time a lot and I think it was beneficial to him and to me. People who DO get to stay home for a bit however should not be made to feel bad because they do get to.

 

Exactly. Just as women who go back to work should not be made to feel bad they had to go back to work(or wanted) to go back to work. I feel very grateful and happy that I am getting the opportunity to be home with my girls. The benefits are endless for (me), and for my boyfriend and them. It isn't a permanent arrangement, and I'm enjoying it while I can. But it was always important to me that I be at home with any child I had for the first few years of their lives. No matter what the reason is that one is staying at home(even if the reasons seem stupid, shallow or "wrong") that is their choice and it really doesn't need to be justified to anyone. If I wanted to stay at home, just to sit on my butt all day, if it was something me and my guy agreed on, no matter how lazy it may seem to others it was still OUR choice. That's what matters here. Just like my original post. Everyone is different. Judging by the responses here, not every person sees providing the same, or even wants that role(that arrangement). The cool thing is that we all have options and choices about the lives that we want. If we don't want a life where one person is working and the other is home, we don't have to have it.

[DN]

The issue of breast-feeding is a red herring. Even if you 'have' to breast-feed there are ways around it that mean you don't 'have' to give up your job. And even if you choose to do so it is a time limited issue and it isn't long before it becomes no impediment to going out to work.

 

But the way the argument has been deployed does lend credence to my assertion that partners will pressure their spouses to agree to something they may not really want to because they are essentially sent on a guilt trip if they don't.

[Seraphim]

Well you would just have to ask my husband if he felt he was given a guilt trip or not, right? He was danged happy breast feeding was FREE.

[DN]

Victoria, you need to stop taking this debate so personally. What you and your husband decide is between you and probably doesn't apply to anyone else. Your situation is not a solution for everyone.

[lostnscared]

The issue of breast-feeding is a red herring. Even if you 'have' to breast-feed there are ways around it that mean you don't 'have' to give up your job. And even if you choose to do so it is a time limited issue and it isn't long before it becomes no impediment to going out to work.

 

But the way the argument has been deployed does lend credence to my assertion that partners will pressure their spouses to agree to something they may not really want to because they are essentially sent on a guilt trip if they don't.

 

Yes but as I said before, breastfeeding could be the only reason for one staying at home, or it could be one of many reasons that one stays at home. Whether or not it is or not really does not matter, if one is staying at home, and both partners agree to it, then that is all that matters. It is very obvious that there are alternatives to breastfeeding. And that one can work and do it, and find a way to make it work, esp. if it's a big priority. However when me and my bf were going over reasons as to why I would stay at home breastfeeding was one of them. That is why I mentioned it in the first place. And if a person is guilted, or pressured into something they don't want to, then that really is their problem. They need to speak up or let it be known that they aren't okay with it. It is no one's fault but their own if they find themselves in an arrangement that they are pressured into. I don't know many woman that will use breastfeeding as way to guilt their man to let them stay at home, but I'm sure it happens, and when it does, that man has a right to say "no" and that couple should compromise. But when we're talking about adults, it makes no sense for an ADULT to find themselves in a situation that they feel pressured about, they have the choice to speak up, if they don't--then you can't feel sorry for them.

[Seraphim]

I know it is not. It works for some people though like Lost and myself. Certainly I am allowed to agree with people I have something in common with like others who feel they have something in common with. I never said my solution applies to anyone or everyone else not ever once.

[DN]

Easy to say - not so easy to put into practice.

 

Look at your original post for example.

[lostnscared]

Easy to say - not so easy to put into practice.

 

Look at your original post for example.

 

What about my original post? If a man is not interested in being a breadwinner in the capacity that I described then he obviously would not be with a woman who wanted him to play that role. Typically these sort of things are discussed before marriage and children to ensure that both people are on the same page. So if a man found a woman who expected him to be the sole breadwinner or to provide in the way I described then he needs to run in the other direction and find the type of woman that is more to his liking. If he stays with her anyway, and then finds himself having to be that provider even though he didn't want it, then isn't it his own fault?

A person can not be forced to do anything they don't want, unless they have a gun to their head. It doesn't matter how guilted or pressured they are--either they stand up for themselves, or they don't. And when they don't, they have no one to blame but themselves.

In 2011, men don't have to be in that "role" anymore, and as you can see from this thread, most are not interested in being with a woman who wants them to take on that role, and MOST women from this thread are not interested in having a man that has that role either. So if a man found himself in that role(pressured or not) he is sort of at fault.

[lostnscared]

Also to add--what is hard about standing up for yourself?

 

It should be easy to stand up for yourself when you find yourself pressured into something you don't want to do. If a man has a backbone he will stand up for himself and not be pressured into this role(same applies to women).

[DN]

You don't believe that is putting pressure on your partner?

 

Then there is no point continuing the discussion.

[Saffron_]

So many women make the breastfeeding issue work that it seems those who don't are in the tiny minority

 

Hmmm, not sure how this has got onto breastfeeding but I will say that that's not true DN. Lots of women have to stop breastfeeding when they go to work (or it just becomes so much of a hassle that it's not worth it) whether they want to or not. From my experience, the women who DO manage to make it work are in the tiny minority. But in saying that, most women stop nursing from somewhere between 6-18 months so yes I agree it is a time limited issue.

 

The issue of breast-feeding is a red herring. Even if you 'have' to breast-feed there are ways around it that mean you don't 'have' to give up your job.

 

In theory, yes in practice no, not always. Some woman certainly feel pushed out of their jobs once they've had a baby. And ok so no woman out there 'has' to breastfeed but they should have every right to do so if they choose, so the old 'just give them formula' argument doesn't hold water. But anyways I digress.......

 

What ended up happening is my son didn't want to breastfeed, he chose the bottle. Somehow, no matter how much I pumped, I couldn't get enough milk to satisfy him. It might have been something to do with hormones released while the child actually nurses.. I'm not sure. I was warned this could happen by a nurse actually, so it isn't something I just came up with. I eventually had no choice but to switch to formula. I felt like a total failure as nursing was something I felt strongly about. It made things easier because I had more freedom to leave him at home with my mother while I went out with my husband and later when I made the choice to go to college, but I was so depressed about it. Even just talking about the situation now makes me feel upset.

 

Sorry this happened to you Mindi but don't feel like a failure. It happens to a lot of women.

[OptomisticGirl]

So many women make the breastfeeding issue work that it seems those who don't are in the tiny minority - and please don't play the "if you don't breast-feed, you don't know"card because no sensible person will be impressed by that.

 

Yes, I agree. I always find it amusing when people throw the 'if you haven't done x, you don't know' card in the mix.

 

No, I have not obviously breast fed yet. this does not make me dumb or ignorant to how things work, can work, and do work. Perhaps I am one of the few women who don't see myself as the only parent that can naturally provide for our future children, that I am in fact NOT their only parent, they do have a father. I'm very centered around L bonding with the babies in the future as much as myself which seems a foreign concept according to most forums I have been a member of. Pregnancy, birth, and child rearing is so damn centered on the mother it actually kind of makes me sick. do people forget it took TWO people to create that baby? Like I said - perhaps I'm a miniority here in that I don't believe it's all about me, me, me, as a future mother - it's about my husband bonding on the same level as me with our kids, not me more than him.

[Saffron_]

Yes, I agree. I always find it amusing when people throw the 'if you haven't done x, you don't know' card in the mix.

 

No, I have not obviously breast fed yet. this does not make me dumb or ignorant to how things work, can work, and do work.

 

Nobody's saying it makes you dumb or ignorant OG, it's just different when you have first hand experience of something. I don't have kids so have never breastfed but having spent years in childcare I can tell you from speaking to hundreds of women that sometimes in practice, things just don't work. Truthfully, if you haven't breastfed, you're not an expert on the subject or you don't have some kind of experience in the area, how can you know? If I hadn't spent so many years around mothers of young babies I wouldn't have realised the problems they encounter either. I'm just going by what so many mothers have said to me.

[OptomisticGirl]

Nobody's saying it makes you dumb or ignorant OG, it's just different when you have first hand experience of something. I don't have kids so have never breastfed but having spent years in childcare I can tell you from speaking to hundreds of women that sometimes in practice, things just don't work.

 

I understand that Saffron, I do. I have been arounds kids (mostly babies) since I was 13 - I'm well aware that sometimes things just don't work - but the flip side of the coin is a lot of times people assume they wont simply because, well, like daddy doesn't have boobs to feed babies. How on Earth could he POSSIBLY feed the kids, right? This is what I'm talking about it. Like I said, perhaps I have a different outlook on child rearing and mother/baby, father/baby bonding. *shrugs*

[Saffron_]

So OG do you think mothers should express milk so fathers can feed their babies too? Did you know that when women breastfeed they release oxytocin which helps the mother relax and feel more nurturing towards her baby. That doesn't happen when they pump milk. I agree that it's not all about the mother but breastfeeding's about so much more than just nourishment.

[OptomisticGirl]

So OG do you think mothers should express milk so fathers can feed their babies too?

 

I think if you can, yes. I know my best friend had issues with pumping (she found it uncomfortable) but her ex barely picked up their daughter so it didn't matter either way. Like I said, I apparnetly have a completely different view of parenting. I don't think I as the mother who has the boobies neccesarily am the only one who can do it. If I can't pump for whatever reason fine, there are other ways to help with daddy bonding during feedings but giving L to chance to have that bonding time with the little ones JUST as much as I have the chance is important to me if it can be done. And yes, I know breast feeding helps mothres relax. But again, it's not all about the mothers - IMO at least.

[Saffron_]

Well I guess you'll just have to come back when you have had kids to see if you still feel this way. Hey, maybe you will but I'd be interested to find out! I guess the same goes for me if I ever decide to have kids.

[OptomisticGirl]

Well I guess you'll just have to come back when you have had kids to see if you still feel this way. Hey, maybe you will but I'd be interested to find out! I guess the same goes for me if I ever decide to have kids.

 

I'd like to think I would. I've never agreed with the heavily centered woman outlook on pregnancy, child birth, and afterward but anything can happen. But like I said, I'd like to think I'd still feel the need to make my husband feel just as important in the process.

[Seraphim]

Why do you think breast feeding mothers have no interest in the fathers bonding with the kids? That is not true at all. Feeding is not the only way to bond. You bond with your child every time you touch them, look at them play with them, bath them, change them, sing to them, read them a book, put them to bed, cuddle and hug them. ALL of which men CAN do.

 

I really resent you think that breast feeding mothers want men out of the picture or that most mothers do in general. That is wrong and untrue.

[lostnscared]

Because it's true. How could you possibly know unless you've tried something? Until then, all you can offer is your opinion, and your limited knowledge about it. Even if you've had all the experience with kids in the world, you have never breastfed. Once you do, then you may have the same opinion or you may not. But until you do, all you can say is what you THINK you would do, and the way you THINK it would be. Once you know, then it'll be a different matter.

No one said you or dumb or ignorant. Simply that you knowledge about breastfed is limited on heresay and what others have told you about it and nothing else. I just got done breastfeeding actually lol. Anyway I'm not sure what you are implying when you say that you are one of few women that once her husbands to contribute to rearing as well, because I know many women who feel just the same as you do. But it just so happens that unless you give your baby formula or expressed milk, that NATURALLY a woman breastfeeds and a man cannot. Now if a woman wants to pump a bottle, so that her man can feed the baby to, then so be it. That is her choice. But not every woman feels the same sense of urgency to include their partner in every aspect of parenting. Nor is it always even important to that partner to be included in every part of it. My boyfriend is GLAD I breastfeed and does not feel as though he's missing out or as if he needs me to pump a bottle just to feel included. Matter of fact he thinks it silly for me to pump a bottle if I don't have to or want to. And even though he may not participate in feeding, he does participate in other things. For instance he had today off from work, and besides when I went to the mall with my mom and the babies, he has pretty much had them all day(beyond when I feed) giving me my much needed break. During the times he's had them, he's changed diapers, played with them, put them to sleep, etc. And on average, when he does come from work, if their up he'll do the same things--change diapers, burp, put them to sleep, play with them. And pregnancy and birth are centered around the mother more than the father because her body PHYSICALLY is going through it in a way a man is not and will never. But a man can still be just as much a part of all of it as a woman if he wants to be and if that woman wants him to be. You make it seem as if women who are talking about breastfeeding are excluding the man or making his role seem less important and that is not the case. I know that it's important to you that L has an equal amount of bonding with your future child. But not everyone is constantly striving for 50/50. I for one am not going to break my butt trying to make sure that my bf is always 50/50 in everything unless he speaks up, and he is the same way. He has not complained about his role in parenting, nor has he complained about mine. And as far as I know, many couples who have similar arrangements of mine are perfectly content with it. You have to do what works for you. If always having everything 50/50 is very important then obviously breastfeeding may not be the right thing for you and you may want to express milk or formula feed.

[OptomisticGirl]

Why do you think breast feeding mothers have no interest in the fathers bonding with the kids? That is not true at all. Feeding is not the only way to bond. You bond with your child every time you touch them, look at them play with them, bath them, change them, sing to them, read them a book, put them to bed, cuddle and hug them. ALL of which men CAN do.

 

I really resent you think that breast feeding mothers want men out of the picture or that most mothers do in general. That is wrong and untrue.

 

I never said breast freeding mothers don't want their child to bond with their father - never said that. This goes back to saying 'men can't feed babies because they don't have boobs'. As I said, I understand completley my view point on this is radical and goes completely against how most people think nowadays. And yes, you can bond with babies in other ways - but men CAN feed and bond with their children and I think to say men can't simply because they don't have boobies is untrue. As I said, many women won't agree with me and that's fine - everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[OptomisticGirl]

Because it's true. How could you possibly know unless you've tried something? Until then, all you can offer is your opinion, and your limited knowledge about it. Even if you've had all the experience with kids in the world, you have never breastfed. Once you do, then you may have the same opinion or you may not. But until you do, all you can say is what you THINK you would do, and the way you THINK it would be. Once you know, then it'll be a different matter.

 

Then I will graciously leave the discussion as i am not a mother and will not be for a number of years to come. Good luck with everything Lost.

[lostnscared]

I'd like to think I would. I've never agreed with the heavily centered woman outlook on pregnancy, child birth, and afterward but anything can happen. But like I said, I'd like to think I'd still feel the need to make my husband feel just as important in the process.

 

All I know is that before getting pregnant, giving birth, and being a mom, I had a lot of things that I THOUGHT would happen, a lot of ideas that I had that I thought I'd STILL have, and a lot of beliefs about what I would do, how things would be, etc. It was easy to say it all too. Because I wasn't actually in it. When I actually got pregnant, gave birth, and became a mom--most of the things I thought I KNEW went right out the window. Some ideas stayed(such as me being a SAHM) but with practice and experience my thoughts about parenting as a whole, have changed immensely. It's one of those things that experience is your teacher. I know that being a parent is extremely important to you, and that you have a lot of ideas and beliefs about what you and L would do OG--however once you become parents you both or one of you could easily change your mind about certain things. You just never know.

 

If you remember me and you, used to have similar thoughts about a lot of things before I got pregnant. Once I got pregnant, a lot of things changed. And since then, things have continued changing. All I'm saying is that you don't know what's going to happen until it happens, until then you can speculate, try to plan and prepare and so on.

[lostnscared]

Then I will graciously leave the discussion as i am not a mother and will not be for a number of years to come. Good luck with everything Lost.

 

You don't have to leave the discussion unless you want to. The topic, in itself is not even about breastfeeding, but it has transformed into that. The only reason it was brought up, was to illustrate one of the reasons that I CHOSE to stay at home. Now breastfeeding alone is not the only reason. And of course not every woman breastfeeds. Or some do have to work anyway. But I just disagreed with you implying that by breastfeeding exclusively or by saying that men can't breastfeed, that they aren't capable of bonding.