Found out my "awesome" wife is an awesome liar

[OptomisticGirl]

I tend to agree with Vic on this one - ones partner does not have to SAY anything for you to know something is up. There are times L knows something is wrong with me and I don't even know something is wrong with me! But that still doesn't justify how she reacted to the situation or how she's acting for whatever reason - most def. does not justify it. She needs to see this unacceptable behavior and not how you handle whatever issues she has.

[DN]

Exactly my point. The vast majority of the replies on this thread are picking up on his remark to this wife and heavily criticising him for it. Time and time again, people revert to that as if it is the most important thing and he isn't even asking for advice about it. Lip service is paid to infidelity being worse but the reality is that, in terms of responses, his remark is what most concerns people.

[lavenderdove]

First off, let's look at the OP's opinion: 'Honesty and openness is everything to me.' The problem with that is that people are not even honest with themselves all the time, because 'honesty' is complicated by lack of self awareness and motivations. People genuinely don't always know why they do things, and act out in all kinds of ways until they figure out what is going on with themselves and other people.

 

People can hide behind the idea that as long as you're 'honest' all is good, when that is not necessarily the case. Diplomacy, tact, sensitivity, awareness, recognizing the difference between an opinion and 'truth' etc. are all equally important to maintaining a good relationship.

 

So I think since his wife openly announced that her laptop was up and asked him to look, i think she may indeed have wanted him to find out about this... it may even have been subconscious, in that she was (a) angry that he made her feel like she should be ashamed of herself and her body until she had a 'flat tummy' again and (b) took it as a crushing blow and immediately went looking for validation that she was still 'OK" by striking up a few flirtations. Then © she realized she was getting over her head with all this, and wanted him to find out to both strike a blow back (and in, see, i've still got it, these guys don't mind my less than flat tummy) and to also let him know that he wasn't the only fish in the sea if he was intending to leave her because he no longer found her attractive and didn't like her 'tummy'. So it may have been a preemptive strike on her part.

 

So humans are complicated emotionally, and sometimes aware of their own motivations and sometimes not. For example, his desire to have his wife avoid being seen in a tummy revealing top wasn't about 'protecting' her because she didn't care and felt OK enough about her tummy if she does wear that, so he was expressing an OPINION that she looked bad, while others might find a rounded tummy very sexy. It was no universal 'honesty' that she looks bad in the top, because plenty of men go crazy for rounded tummies and think they are womanly and sexy. So his 'honesty' was about his being unhappy with her tummy and perhaps embarassed that he had a wife with a tummy that he thought was unattractive that led him to that comment, not a devotion to the high standard of 'honesty' though he may think it was that.

 

So 'honesty' when the motivations are not necessarily pure and when that honesty will strike a blow that hurts someone else will not fix all situations and may complicate them. So give up on the idea that honesty is all and the only thing that is important in a relationship, because total honesty is not possible because it is relative and tainted by so many other motivations.

 

And of course she was wrong to seek validation from flirting with others, but if she had a deep blow to her ego, she was not only trying to get her self esteem back, she was also angry and acting out by doing something she knew might hurt him as much or more than he hurt her.

 

So what to do? Cut thru all this and confront the fact by telling her that it makes you very uncomfortable she is contacting other men, and that if she is doing it because you made her feel unattractive he is very sorry. And that he'll love her even if she does have a little tummy (and believe me, he'll get a tummy too so that honesty was probably a stupid move since it was both undiplomatic and insensitive/overreacting to expect a new mother to have a flat tummy or to tell her she should hide her 'repulsive' tummy from others like it is a terrible thing when others might be turned on by it). The OP made a really bad judgment call by assuming that his honesty on this tummy matter was virtuous somehow when it was really very hurtful, and she made a bad call by acting out to prove to him that he was using the idea of honesty as a weapon to wound her into doing something about her tummy to please him and to control her, even if he didn't recognize his own motivation there. Why else say something so hurtful to a new mother unless he was irritated by it or expected her to 'fix' it to please him?

 

So try to mend the original rift, and also state that her contacting exes or flirting with guys really isn't appropriate in a marriage. Then see what she does. And in future recognize that diplomacy plays an equal part in keeping a marriage vital, and striking blows to someone's self esteem in the name of honesty isn't virtuous. So what if she has a little belly.. she'll get a lot worse than that as she ages, and calling attention to personally perceived flaws in the name of honesty really isn't wise... are you going to tell her you don't like her wrinkles, and she tell you she hates balding men with jowls? What does that accomplish anyway and when does that 'honesty' end, when it serves no purpose other than to create rifts and pain in the partner? No good can come of that, nothing but hurt feelings and feeling bad about oneself and one's partner.

 

So learn to be more diplomatic, and also learn to keep hurtful things to yourself rather than spilling your guts about every little thing that irritates you or crosses your mind. And establish your bottom line with her, that if she feels hurt, please talk to you about it rather than acting out with other men, and in future you will try to be more diplomatic rather than crticizing her in the name of honesty. Perhaps more than anything else she was trying to break thru your false assumption that 'honesty is all' when honesty is hurtful and leads to rifts between you. Focus more on being kind and building a bond than on carrying the flag for 'honesty' when that 'openness' is liable to hurt someone or create a rift.

[DN]

On re- reading the original post, I don't think it is wise for VIII to raise the question of what he said because everyone is assuming that is why she is contacting this other guy - whereas there is no evidence that is the reason at all other than conjecture by people who read a previous thread.

 

If what he said actually had nothing to do with it and she just got caught by carelessness, it will give her an immediate excuse for her behaviour. Why not wait to see if she brings it up without prompting?

 

There is no reason to give someone an alibi or excuse for their actions when in fact the two things may well be unrelated. No one here knows that is why she is in contact with this guy, they are just guessing.

[journeynow]

I never would have checked her messages behind her back, I never question who she is texting or chatting with because i have respect for her and I trust her but how the heck am i supposed to look at this? How to I ask her whats going on and why should I expect her to tell me the truth after she told me she wasn't speaking to one guy and said she had no friends in class?

 

Ask her just that: What's going on? What's the motivation behind this [meaning both the messages with ex and her leaving it for you to see]? Is she planning on cheating or is it that she wants you to be jealous? Where does she see your marriage going? Can she be truthful with you?

[VIII]

I had no idea that this thread had continued for so long after I got offline yesterday lol.

 

Anyway, I had a long discussion wi my wife and here's what we ended with:

 

Me- so what is it about this guy that's had you disregard my telling you that I'm uncomfortable with you speaking to him FOUR times?

 

Her- I don't know

 

I asked her everything; if she felt like she needed attention from other men because I hurt her with my comments or because I'm not giving her something. I asked her if she still had feelings for him. I asked her if she just didn't take me seriously... She said no to it all. Her explanation for wanting him in her life so bad is because she just does. I told her that I'm extremely bothered that four times I've told her that her talking to him makes me uncomfortable and she seems to want to be around him so bad that she is willing to disregard my feelings on the situation "just because". She couldn't give me a single reason why she couldn't leave him alone. I don't have a problem with her having male friends... And of all the ppl in the world she could go to, she picks him and she can't explain why. Now I'm torn between just saying forget it and leaving and staying with her and trying to work it out. My issue now is that we have had to discuss her talking to this guy on four different occasions so why would I let it slide again for it to happen a fifth time? Or for it to go past conversation next time (she swears up and down that she hasn't done anything with anyone behind my back)

[DN]

So basically she is refusing to give a reason and is just blowing off your concerns?

[VIII]

I'm not even sure to tell you the truth. When I ask her why she can't leave him alone she says she doesn't know. I've asked her if it had anying to do with my comments and she explained that she thought we were past that and hadn't given it any thought. She says he is just entertaining. I asked her if she wanted him in her life so bad that she was willing to jeopardize us and she just went silent. I rephrased my question to "so after all this and my feelings on it, you still want him in your life" she said simply "yes". I asked why again and she said she didn't know.

[OptomisticGirl]

I hate the words 'I don't know' or 'Just becuase'. They are unacceptable answers to your questions - she needs to get her act together.

[DN]

That response would not keep me in the marriage.

[Seraphim]

Her response is unacceptable.

[VIII]

She also said that she is sometimes afraid to be honest with me because she is scared she will lose me. I explained that dishonesty will push me away even faster and that if she hasn't done anything with anyone then she shouldn't fear being honest about simply talking to someone. Again, she just sat in silence. I'm really at a point now where I don't want this relationship anymore because of this reoccurring situation but outside of this situation, she's a wonderful person. I just really wish I could get a straight answer out of her.

[OptomisticGirl]

This behavior is def unacceptable. She puts me in mind of my ex who used all those same lines and acted the same way after he had cheated on me before but just hadn't gotten the courage up to end us out of fear of hurting me.. he even used that line about being honest with me. You need to make a decision about this VIII.

[DN]

Well, it is more than just this situation because she won't be honest with you and that means you can't trust anything she says about anything else either.

 

Perhaps if she realises she is going to lose you she will start being honest and tell you what you need to know.

[VIII]

She hasn't told me definitively that she's cheated, though all the signs are there. She hasn't given me a reason for her behavior or why this guy keeps coming into the picure. I really need some sort of solid answer before I make a decision to dismantle our family or stay in a relationship with someone who responds to situations like this with "I don't know"

[VIII]

Well, it is more than just this situation because she won't be honest with you and that means you can't trust anything she says about anything else either.

 

Perhaps if she realises she is going to lose you she will start being honest and tell you what you need to know.

 

I told her I don't trust her at this point and I don't believe her. But I still want some kind of answer. I'm not satisfied with the bs she gave me. I need to know what the he'll is going on but she just clams up and cries.

[DN]

Problem is that if she knows you are going to stay if she clams up she will just clam up.

[VIII]

I feel like I'm just wasting breath if I keep asking her tho

[OptomisticGirl]

I told her I don't trust her at this point and I don't believe her. But I still want some kind of answer. I'm not satisfied with the bs she gave me. I need to know what the he'll is going on but she just clams up and cries.

 

I hate to say this, but I have been on this road. She won't ever give you an answer other than 'just because' and "I don't know'. You can ask but the answer will never change.

[DN]

I hate to say this, but I have been on this road. She won't ever give you an answer other than 'just because' and "I don't know'. You can ask but the answer will never change.

Unfortunately, I think OG is right. You can't discuss problems with someone who won't engage.

 

She is also not being truthful - she does know why she is doing this, she just doesn't want to tell you.

[OptomisticGirl]

Unfortunately, I think OG is right. You can't discuss problems with someone who won't engage.

 

She is also not being truthful - she does know why she is doing this, she just doesn't want to tell you.

 

DN nailed it on the head. Her answers to your questions are unacceptable and she knows why, she just doesn't want to say - which is never a good sign I have learned.

[VIII]

Well at this point I'm not entirely sure what to say to her. She woke up this morning and is trying to talk to me like it's just another day. "so what are we doing today?" "what'd you eat this morning?" I've kinda just locked myself in the basement as I really don't want to be bothered with her. I really have nothing at all to say to her. She cant be straight with me. Divorce is expensive though and I still dont want to break up my family based on her answers (or lack thereof).

 

It's really getting to me how yesterday I was overreacting, last night she didn't know, and this morning the situation never happened.

[lavenderdove]

I think it is time to call a marriage counselor since there is a child involved.

 

Sometimes in marriages where one person insists on total and complete openness and honesty, the other person feels invaded and like they have no sense of privacy/self and will start to do things to try to preserve their sense of self, even if it involves these kind of 'i don't know' answers. Either she's cheated and is afraid of the consequences if she tells the truth, or else she feels like you are trying to invade and control every part of her and her life, and she needs a 'private' self including other people who make her feel supported rather than constantly controlled. It could be that neither of you is wrong, but that you are experiencing some dynamics problems, where she is struggling to maintain a separate identity and is not adjusting to the difference in communication styles between you. And if she's cheating, then that needs to come out as well, and a marriage counselor is the best bet to help you get to the bottom of this.

[DN]

I would be tempted to reply to her questions with "I don't know" but that would be immature and unhelpful. However, you could say that until she decides to tell you the truth you don't really want to talk about anything else and that your only option at the moment seems to be divorce.

 

I would not recommend counseling at this time because if she won't tell you the truth now about anything there seems to be little point. She will just as likely lie to the counselor to make you look bad.

[lavenderdove]

Actually, asking her to see a marriage counselor will let her know how serious you are about this issue, that it is a dealbreaker. A counselor is also experienced at getting to the bottom of these 'i don't know' type answers, asking questions in a way that can get the person to analyze and admit their feelings, and to serve as a neutral party to help break these kind of communication logjams.

 

Continuing to demand the truth won't solve anything when there are deeper problems of her chatting with other men and him being insensitive to her feelings and recently giving birth by him telling her she is too unattractive/fat to wear certain clothes.