Modern Dating: The Evolution of Courtship for Men and Women

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, rainbowsandroses said:

"bad boy

My definition was a person with questionable values and character, arrogant and his purpose in dating was more of a conquest- about power and strutting around  than having any real interest in the person.  Charming, daredevil.  One of my exes was like that and then committed to me. However it turned out his bad boy "act" was because he was in painful denial about being gay.  I never suspected and any signs came to me many years later when he told me -10 years after I declined his marriage proposal and we broke up and even those signs were- not really signs.  So he acted like a bad boy but not for the reasons I thought.  I was 23 when I met him and he was 22. He's happily married for many years now.

[rainbowsandroses]

15 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

My definition was a person with questionable values and character, arrogant and his purpose in dating was more of a conquest- about power and strutting around  than having any real interest in the person. 

But yet you admit at one point in your life, you were attracted to such men?  Did I read that correctly?  This is what I don't understand. 

Men (even women) say women are attracted to bad boys which using your definition is such an insult to women imo.  What they're basically saying is that such women have no or very little standards, who tolerate arrogance, disinterest, disrespect, men who seek power and conquest... and men who have questionable or poor values.

I am NOT perfect by any stretch and certainly have my share of issues, but I have NEVER been drawn to that.  Men who challenge me, keep me on my toes, cause a bit of uncertainty at times - yes!

But not what you have described, no thank you.  Again I have NEVER been attracted to that.

 

[yogacat]

Guys that say I love after two weeks. Hmmm, sure, I'll entertain it for a bit. One man I dated, after speaking to him 1, maybe 2 times, proceeded to give me his login credentials for his personal social account to prove that he was not a 'bad boy.' Or, whatever you want to call it.

The fact that he was paranoid someone would think he was a bad boy likely means that he played being a bad boy previously. So calm down there pal... what a mess on so many levels.😄

[yogacat]

7 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

But yet you admit at one point in your life, you were attracted to such men?  Did I read that correctly?  This is what I don't understand. 

I am NOT perfect by any stretch and certainly have my share of issues, but I have NEVER been drawn to that.  Men who challenge me, keep me on my toes, cause a bit of uncertainty at times - yes!

But not what you have described, no thank you.  Again I have NEVER been attracted to that.

Bad boys also take the form of addicts/abusers. Which I recall, you mentioned you dated. I think the term "bad boy" encompasses both, or should I say, a wide spectrum.

[Batya33]

9 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

But yet you admit at one point in your life, you were attracted to such men?  Did I read that correctly?  This is what I don't understand. 

Men (even women) say women are attracted to bad boys which using your definition is such an insult to women imo.  What they're basically saying is that such women have no or very little standards, who tolerate arrogance, disinterest, disrespect, men who seek power and conquest... and men who have questionable or poor values.

I am NOT perfect by any stretch and certainly have my share of issues, but I have NEVER been drawn to that.  Men who challenge me, keep me on my toes, cause a bit of uncertainty at times - yes!

But not what you have described, no thank you.  Again I have NEVER been attracted to that.

 

I'm not going to respond as it's likely to be off topic for the focus of this thread.  I did respond to your question about my personal definition of bad boy and I'll leave it as my "personal" definition, nothing more.  I'm comfortable with you not understanding.  I understand and what I listed was a broad spectrum and range.  And I wrote that I started dating in my teens -actually I may have still been 12 for my first date.  Thanks for sharing!

[rainbowsandroses]

24 minutes ago, yogacat said:

Bad boys also take the form of addicts/abusers. Which I recall, you mentioned you dated. I think the term "bad boy" encompasses both, or should I say, a wide spectrum.

In my defense yoga, once I discovered he was a drug addict, I ended the relationship.

Well I did encourage him and gave him the opportunity to get clean by going to rehab.  He agreed at first, then reneged.

It was after that I immediately left.  

Anyway, IMO that is different from "bad boy," but you are right, bad boy encompasses a wide spectrum and everyone will have their own definition, as you, I and Batya did.

I was simply describing mine, tis all.

 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

6 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I'm not going to respond as it's likely to be off topic.  Thanks for sharing!

I wasn't asking for a response, my question was rhetorical.  I was simply giving my opinion.

Thank you for sharing as well!!! 

[Sindy_0311]

1 hour ago, rainbowsandroses said:

And I think he generally has a pretty good understanding of both female nature and male nature which makes him unique and why I look forward to watching more of his videos!

I think I watched them all in the past two years. Indeed he has also been coaching men for a few years which adds a great value to his content.  I’m not really a believer but what he says always speaks to me a lot. It’s not only about love and romantic relationships, but also about healing from the past, become a better person, improving communication skills, trying to understand and accept people…etc… Sometime I just put my earrings and listen to his podcast while cleaning or doing something just to hear his voice that I like so much. It’s so comforting. Definitely my YouTube crush 😍

 

[Batya33]

I think maybe- this is speculation -there is more acceptance now than when I was in my 20s in the late 80s-90s of what it is to be a "man" so that the "bad boy" image/look which was stereotypically "manly" maybe doesn't appeal as much to women who have been around a wide range of boys/guys/men including all facets of sexual orientation, or nonbinary etc.  Interestingly we used to dance a lot to punk rock and alternative rock-Devo, B-52s, Flock of Seagulls -and some of the teenage boys would wear makeup -eyeliner etc because it resembled those bands.  But no one saw that as not manly - it was really cool! But apart from being a fan of those bands -if they had done that out of context not when we were at parties, dancing -I don't know!  

I don't know -just musing that that might be a change now-a change that might also impact "courting" or traditional dating.

[yogacat]

9 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think maybe- this is speculation -there is more acceptance now than when I was in my 20s in the late 80s-90s of what it is to be a "man" so that the "bad boy" image/look which was stereotypically "manly" maybe doesn't appeal as much to women who have been around a wide range of boys/guys/men including all facets of sexual orientation, or nonbinary etc.  Interestingly we used to dance a lot to punk rock and alternative rock-Devo, B-52s, Flock of Seagulls -and some of the teenage boys would wear makeup -eyeliner etc because it resembled those bands.  But no one saw that as not manly - it was really cool! But apart from being a fan of those bands -if they had done that out of context not when we were at parties, dancing -I don't know!  

I don't know -just musing that that might be a change now-a change that might also impact "courting" or traditional dating.

I love that you brought that up...

I used to have such a thing for Adam Ant. Yum.

 

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, yogacat said:

I love that you brought that up...

I used to have such a thing for Adam Ant. Yum.

 

Oh! I should have listed Adam Ant!! I saw Men at Work in concert in the early 80s -so so cool. Maybe that was where the eyeliner came from for the boys? We were in high school.  I thought Devo.

[yogacat]

I liked the video @Sindy_0311posted --- I like this guy a bit better:

 

[boltnrun]

Speaking of "bad boys"...

 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

32 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Speaking of "bad boys"...

 

 

Sounds like MY kind of man... lol

"I take my whiskey neat
My coffee black and my bed at three"

Lives life on his terms, dances to his own drummer....  💛

Great lyrics!

 

[LootieTootie]

17 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Thank you for watching. I'm being curious, why wouldn't you recommend it?

I definitely would because it helps understanding the new dynamic everyone seems to complain of and that it has nothing to do with one's value on the "dating market". I'm dating, with intention sometimes (depends on the guy), and I found this video very helpful to better understand why men (or women) became more lazy. 

Now for the future of long term relationships its not very encouraging, I agree, but at least we understand that it's just a general tendency and that it (again) has nothing to do with our own value as a person. 

That video might leave someone who is having a hard time with dating even more discouraged. But then I see Catfeeder mentioned this, and I'm definitely in agreement with everything she said. So maybe I'll check his other videos 🙂

 

8 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Loved the video 

Loved the video and have listened to a few more while milling about, which confirmed what I believe is this man's underlying theme: you can flip cultural observations or rules on their heads, because there's nothing consistent about generalized behaviors that applies when two people are the RIGHT match.

He flat out says that even the most casual, generally unengaged guy who has shut down on courting for any reason, will step up if he meets the RIGHT woman. In another video, he raises the reasons people claim a woman shouldn't call a guy first, and he points out why those don't apply when she's dealing with the RIGHT man.

He challenges the idea that certain behaviors will lead to successes or misses, when the bottom line is whether or not you're dealing with someone who mutually matches your level of interest in one another. The right match dissolves all of that other stuff, while lousy matches perpetuate more of it.

This is why there's no point is being discouraged by the behaviors of the masses when you're not looking for a mass of people as your partner. If your dating pool gets reduced down to ONE, you've done a great job.

 

[LootieTootie]

I think I'm with Batya because we seemed to have the same experience with "bad boys."

I was an angst teenager (I started the emo look before it was a thing) and I dated the bad boys who ditched class regularly and smoke weed under the bleachers. One of them created his own gang and I remembered thinking "cool" and it turned to be just him and his friend in the gang LOL. But I was into the guys who weren't afraid of getting into fights and didnt care about anything except being stupid and philosophical all at the same time SMH... I did end up realizing that these bad boys were just... boys. 

Then after that, I was into manly man 😁  That wasn't such a smooth journey too but luckily I found one who isnt afraid of wearing his heart on his sleeves.

[boltnrun]

I guess I would have been the bad girl. I drank, smoked weed (and dabbled in other drugs), ditched class, drove too fast, lied to my mom about where I was going...the only thing I didn't do was have actual sex in high school. I met my husband when I was still a teenager and he was "bad" too, albeit a lot more low key. He did the bad things too but he didn't make a big show of it. We got married young and settled into suburban life. Kind of funny. 

[mylolita]

8 hours ago, yogacat said:

I love that you brought that up...

I used to have such a thing for Adam Ant. Yum.

 

He’s a good looking guy 💃 

 

In England this scene was sometimes called the ‘New Romantics’ in the 80s, although I understand Adam is under the slight punk banner! 
 

x

[Batya33]

7 hours ago, LootieTootie said:

I think I'm with Batya because we seemed to have the same experience with "bad boys."

I was an angst teenager (I started the emo look before it was a thing) and I dated the bad boys who ditched class regularly and smoke weed under the bleachers. One of them created his own gang and I remembered thinking "cool" and it turned to be just him and his friend in the gang LOL. But I was into the guys who weren't afraid of getting into fights and didnt care about anything except being stupid and philosophical all at the same time SMH... I did end up realizing that these bad boys were just... boys. 

Then after that, I was into manly man 😁  That wasn't such a smooth journey too but luckily I found one who isnt afraid of wearing his heart on his sleeves.

When I was turning 15 -early 80s -I dated a 21 year old man (I know I know) who was bad news and a bad boy- for about 5 weeks but I was away at camp for one of them.  Ironically -or maybe - makes sense-it was the summer I started on a huge growth academically/career wise because of an internship I did and I remember my internship supervisor -same age as my bf-couldn't be more different though -wanting I'm sure to take me aside and tell me to get away from him but it wasn't his place.  Luckily I didn't get myself into trouble and ended it before it was more than one of those "adventures" some teens have.  I still can't believe I wanted to date him in the first place.  (We met through mutual acquaintances out one night).

I always chalked it up to dumb stuff teenagers do.

Loved the Gang of Two story LOLL.  Same aura here.

[rainbowsandroses]

I think this thread is an appropriate place for this link (below).  It pretty much describes where I'm at now and where I prefer to be! 

In fact all 9 reasons describe me and my state of mind to a T!  And in retrospect have always been me.

I'm not depressed, that's not it.  In fact my mental state is quite positive!  I was thinking there may be something "wrong" with me (by society's standards) and perhaps some still might believe there is.  

But I'm in a good place, on my own, by myself. And happy! 

There's a men's movement "MGTOW" (men going their own way) for various reasons, in turn why not have a WGTOW for women?

I'm seeing this A LOT among modern women.

https://geediting.com/people-who-isolate-themselves-from-others-usually-display-these-behaviors-without-realizing-it/

The last paragraph states this, which imo is SO important and so true imo.

"When it comes to human behavior, the key lies in understanding rather than judging."

 

 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

There's a men's movement "MGTOW" (men going their own way) for various reasons, 

It's probably better to avoid all the manosphere "influencers", especially those who position themselves as relationship or dating coaches. MGTOW is just part of the manosphere hate groups.

[Coily]

On 5/1/2024 at 10:22 AM, rainbowsandroses said:

I think this thread is an appropriate place for this link (below).  It pretty much describes where I'm at now and where I prefer to be! 

In fact all 9 reasons describe me and my state of mind to a T!  And in retrospect have always been me.

I'm not depressed, that's not it.  In fact my mental state is quite positive!  I was thinking there may be something "wrong" with me (by society's standards) and perhaps some still might believe there is.  

But I'm in a good place, on my own, by myself. And happy! 

There's a men's movement "MGTOW" (men going their own way) for various reasons, in turn why not have a WGTOW for women?

I'm seeing this A LOT among modern women.

https://geediting.com/people-who-isolate-themselves-from-others-usually-display-these-behaviors-without-realizing-it/

The last paragraph states this, which imo is SO important and so true imo.

"When it comes to human behavior, the key lies in understanding rather than judging."

 

 

There is a strange social pressure for everyone to be kind of cookie cutter, quirky and independent seem to get labeled as depressed or in need of therapy. If you aren't out on the town doing stereotypical X or Y for your age group you must be broken. I find all of it very strange to be honest.

As to WGTOW, it's existed for quite a while, the "strong and independent woman who doesn't need a man" parts of radical feminism. Which I think MGTOW is a reaction to, basically they are both reflections of the worst elements of each other. Then again I would not label feminism a hate group nor 'da manosphere", hateful elements in both but not the ideas as a whole.

 

[Coily]

I would be really curious, if there were a comparison of dating attitudes from the 1920s to the 2020s. See where things really went off the rails with dating attitudes, and where things improved. Sadly that will be impossible, sure there are those little articles that pop up on dating advice from back in the day that ranges from quaint, to sexist, to still remarkably valid.

 

[Batya33]

One thing I thought of the other day - I wonder if modern dating -specifically less priority on courting/manners/reliability -ironically even though technology makes it easier to get in touch/follow up/make or confirm a plan is part of a broader lack of or decrease in decorum in making plans generally.  Social media means more photos of made up reasons to celebrate (and ask for gifts) but the traditional etiquette of let's say -limiting who can see the guest list or save the date posts to those who actually will be invited - and the basic manners of making a plan seems to have gone by the wayside. 

A friend of mine "invited" me through a text to a party -in a really weird and impolite way - and my husband and close friend -we are all 57 -were basically shocked and found it so weird and rude but she is around 15 years younger and very "hip" and into social media /letting it all hang out on social media-made me wonder - if I shared what she did with people her age or younger whether they'd think we were being too rigid/stuffy to find her way of inviting me rude.  Maybe the "rules" and "etiquette" of dating is part of a larger shift in making social plans generally.

[catfeeder]

29 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

A friend of mine "invited" me through a text to a party -in a really weird and impolite way

This is interesting. What did the text say that was rude?