Appropriate Boundaries in a LTR - Jealousy

[rainbowsandroses]

Hey guys, 

This is about defining boundaries in an exclusive relationship particularly as it applies to jealousy. 

 

For me, I always thought that if my boyfriend or husband became jealous, that it was his issue not mine.  

 

For example, if he saw me privately talking with another man at a party (no flirting or anything inappropriate) or if I had lunch with a male co-worker or began developing a friendship with another man.

 

My belief had always been that he had no right to tell me to stop going to lunch with my co-worker or to not become friends with that other man, etc.   But I'm beginning to re-think this now.

 

I am in therapy at the moment working through the ending of my marriage. 

 

My therapist told me that when in an exclusive committed relationship or marriage, compromise is important and "giving up a little bit of yourself for the other person" (and vice versa of course) is the key to a long lasting happy union.

 

That at times it's okay to acquiesce to your partners needs even when those needs seem unreasonable to you such as jealousy, and to respect and honor their needs.  Same for them.  

 

That we do this out of love and respect for our partner.

 

She had me watch a video of a couple in a long term relationship where the girlfriend started developing a friendship (it was truly just a friendship) with a male co-worker.

 

Her boyfriend found out and he became very jealous of their friendship.  He was honest and forthright and told her he felt threatened by it.

 

He also admitted it was insecurity on his part, but those were his feelings to which he felt were within his rights to have.

 

He asked (didn't demand) her to end the friendship and keep their interactions strictly professional.

 

She understood and complied.  They got married and were happily married for many years after that!

 

What are your thoughts about this?   

 

Are such boundaries okay and appropriate?  Or would they be considered controlling? 

 

Thanks in advance. 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

[Batya33]

I've given the examples before of checking in with my husband/accommodating him.  He didn't want me to meet my platonic male friend one on one for an hour before my husband and I were supposed to hang out with him.  He wasn't comfortable.  I thought it was fine.  But my future husband came first and I respected him sharing this with me and understood how he might feel this way. So I told my friend -and he understood too -and made it his business to get to know my bf and befriend him.

I also showed my husband an email I received from someone I'd met years ago on jury duty and was married at the time. We'd stayed in loose contact through Linkedin.  He emailed me to tell me he was getting divorced and asked if I knew any good family law attorneys. Some of the email was a bit flirtatious.  I showed my husband to check in -my idea was -email back, give the referral (yes I did know someone for him) and play it straight/polite.  But if my husband had said to end contact I likely would have.  My husband knew we were Linkedin.  He was ok with that too.  So I did so and all was well.

I think it's about finding someone with similar values about boundaries/loyalty etc.  For example one of my women friends would never go on vacation without her husband and same for him.  But I would.  My husband likely would.  I dated someone who peered into my purse, saw business cards in there and asked suspiciously why I had those cards when he said I'd told him I don't get a lot of cards at events.  He assumed they were men's cards (they likely were!).  HIs level of distrust/snooping was not ok with me even though he felt insecure.  It was indicative of other insecurities he showed. 

Other women might have loved to feel so "protected."  I couldn't be with someone who expected me to constantly check in or wanted to go through my phone or email etc.  So a lot of this stuff can be prevented beforehand by clear communication about boundaries IMO.

[TacticalLinguine]

I feel like transparency is also very important.. “Finding out” about an opposite sex friendship can cause discomfort, I can see that. It’s why I’m very grateful for my current partner; we were both cheated on horribly in the past, and yeah it sucked, but instead of holding onto it we both managed to learn from it instead. We’re very open about our lives, the people in it, etc. Makes things a lot easier. 
 

We still have our privacy of course, he has shown me things on his phone and vice versa, I also know I’d get direct access to it if I asked, but neither of us feel the need to go through them. 
 

Relationships are complicated. You’re still your own person, never “lose yourself” for another. That’s why, like Batya said, it’s important to find someone with similar values and a will to compromise if necessary (same goes for us!) 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

I've given the examples before of checking in with my husband/accommodating him.  He didn't want me to meet my platonic male friend one on one for an hour before my husband and I were supposed to hang out with him.  He wasn't comfortable.  I thought it was fine.  But my future husband came first and I respected him sharing this with me and understood how he might feel this way. So I told my friend -and he understood too -and made it his business to get to know my bf and befriend him.

I also showed my husband an email I received from someone I'd met years ago on jury duty and was married at the time. We'd stayed in loose contact through Linkedin.  He emailed me to tell me he was getting divorced and asked if I knew any good family law attorneys. Some of the email was a bit flirtatious.  I showed my husband to check in -my idea was -email back, give the referral (yes I did know someone for him) and play it straight/polite.  But if my husband had said to end contact I likely would have.  My husband knew we were Linkedin.  He was ok with that too.  So I did so and all was well.

I think it's about finding someone with similar values about boundaries/loyalty etc.  For example one of my women friends would never go on vacation without her husband and same for him.  But I would.  My husband likely would.  I dated someone who peered into my purse, saw business cards in there and asked suspiciously why I had those cards when he said I'd told him I don't get a lot of cards at events.  He assumed they were men's cards (they likely were!).  HIs level of distrust/snooping was not ok with me even though he felt insecure.  It was indicative of other insecurities he showed. 

Other women might have loved to feel so "protected."  I couldn't be with someone who expected me to constantly check in or wanted to go through my phone or email etc.  So a lot of this stuff can be prevented beforehand by clear communication about boundaries IMO.

Thanks Bat, the examples you shared about your husband were extremely helpful, the bolded especially.

[Andrina]

One element of relationship happiness is to only date someone who shares your thoughts on relationship boundaries. Some couples are totally okay with each other having opposite sex friendships. Some couples are okay if the opposite sex friendship has been a long one, since childhood, etc., but not okay if their partner forms new friendships of the opposite sex. Some people are okay with casual friendships with co-workers of the opposite sex, unless it gets into the "work-husband"/"work wife" territory. Some don't want their partner having any opposite sex friendships.

Know what you're comfortable with and choose someone who has the same views. But know that some choices, too liberal with no bounds for some people, might involve a smaller dating pool.

[lostandhurt]

Opposite sex friendships are tricky because it involves 3 people.  The person in the relationship that is becoming friendly with another person, that new friend and of course your partner.

To you it all seems very above board and you have zero interest in this other person romantically at all.  But there are two other people left.  What is the intention of this new friend? How does your partner feel about you spending time alone with another man? What if the new friend becomes flirty? There are so many variables that don't need to be discussed but boundaries HAVE to be discussed between you and your partner so each of you know where you stand on friendships.

 If you put yourself in your partners shoes how would you feel if he was spending time alone with another woman?  Trust is extremely important in a relationship and your partner may trust you completely but he is a man and he knows what no woman on this planet knows and that is how men think.  He needs to trust this new friend and since he is a total stranger he simply cannot do that.

  I always question opposite sex friendships on this basis.  Does it add or help your relationship or harm it?

  Being apathetic to your partners feelings is never good for a relationship. Of course it could be controlling if demands are made but if feelings are expressed and you then choose to continue the friendship in spite of how it makes your partner feel then they can always end the relationship and find someone that will take how they feel into account.

It all comes down to communication and choices.

 Lost

[rainbowsandroses]

59 minutes ago, TacticalLinguine said:

That’s why, like Batya said, it’s important to find someone with similar values and a will to compromise if necessary (same goes for us!) 

I am a little confused by this tbh.

One hand you're suggesting to only date people who share similar thoughts and values with respect to opposite sex friendships, meeting one-on-one etc.

But on the other hand you're saying it's okay to acquiesce to your partner's discomfort/needs even if/when those needs don't 100% align with your own values.

That's how I read it anyway, apologies if I read that wrong.  

Like in Batya's example, she was planning to meet her male friend but chose not to out of respect for her husband because he was uncomfortable with it.

Which is what my therapist advised also.

 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, Andrina said:

One element of relationship happiness is to only date someone who shares your thoughts on relationship boundaries.

1 hour ago, Andrina said:

Know what you're comfortable with and choose someone who has the same views.

Thanks @Andrina.  I used to believe this too. 

However, I think I'm liking how Batya handled it and what my therapist advised. 

That it's okay to sometimes go against your own values out of love and respect for your partner if they're uncomfortable with whatever you're doing (i.e having lunch one-on-one with a male friend).

 

 

 

[Andrina]

11 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

That it's okay to sometimes go against your own values out of love and respect for your partner.

 

Yes, that's totally fine if you feel it's a reasonable request and it doesn't build resentment. It's when you're both on opposite sides of the spectrum when problems can arise.

[smackie9]

Yes within reason. BUT if they tell you, you can't talk to any male that's controlling. There are times you need to see it their way and put yourself in their shoes. How would you like it if your husband was off in a corner with a woman you didn't know in a deep conversation at the party? How would you feel if you accidentally found out your husband was having one on one time with a female coworker? texting, having lunch together. That wouldn't feel right now would it? He set a boundary and I agree with it. You can still engage with the coworker in a professional setting just like most people do...workplace bonding is normal or going out for lunch in a mixed group with other coworkers should be ok IMO. 

[rainbowsandroses]

40 minutes ago, Andrina said:

Yes, that's totally fine if you feel it's a reasonable request and it doesn't build resentment. It's when you're both on opposite sides of the spectrum when problems can arise.

Agree. 

Thinking more on this, this is where being empathetic to your partner's feelings (putting yourself in their shoes as @lostandhurtposted) and having the flexibility to think outside your own value system for the good of the relationship and respect for your partner's feelings and needs come into play.

Hopefully your partner is doing the same! 

Anyway, watching the video at my therapist's office awakened something in me - a new way of thinking.

Thank you for your responses, much appreciated! 

 

 

[catfeeder]

I believe that no one size fits all. The best primer I’ve heard on jealousy is a self assessment based on, for simplicity, two kinds of jealousy. One is external, such as when a partner behaves in secretive ways that prompt it. The other is internal, where a lack of trust toward all people of a given sex or all people in general tend to drive jealous behavior.

When you would self describe a reasonable security in your own judgment and your selection of a spouse, then jealousy is not generalized— it would need to be prompted by behavior you feel is a potential threat. And you are in a position to negotiate as a couple to adopt boundaries that apply to both of you. And you can communicate openly enough to navigate specific situations as they occur.

However, internally driven jealousy isn’t negotiable. It’s not based in the present, it was carried into the relationship and will be projected onto a current partner no matter what they say or do. If a partner complies with one restriction, that’s not enough, and more restrictions follow. And those are never enough to assuage, either.

So it’s important to suss out what kind of jealousy you’re dealing with, and early. If you find yourself dating the most fabulous person in the world only to learn that they have unfinished business with internal jealousy, it may be wise to delay the path of the relationship unless and until the potential partner works through that with someone who is trained to help them manage it.

[Kwothe28]

I wanted to open a thread about boundaries based on Jonah Hill case. Found it interesting enough for a serious discussion about it.

Jonah Hill years ago dated some surfer instructor I think. In meantime they broke up and he found another woman with whom I believe he got a child recently. Anyway, his ex recently leaked private DMs on her Instagram account. Where she accuses him of being controlling. His boundaries were even more specific then in you case:

- To not model

- No bikini Instagram pics

- No friendships with unstable women

- No innapropriate friendships with men

- No surfing with men

Its a bit problematic since her job is surfing. So bikini is kinda her work equipment and I would imagine her business rellies on men who would want her to teach them surfing. So if I were him I would know that his kind of boundaries wouldnt mash well with her and that its an uphill battle. But on the other hand, he just stated his boundaries. Which she did comply. She even took out(deleted) some Instagram pics he didnt like. If she didnt comply, she could easily leave. There was no forcing to stay there. For example lots of jealous people(especially men) would resort in threaten you, even with force. Jonah just said "If you need all above I am not the right partner for you. If those things bring you hapiness I support it and there will be no hard feelings. Those are my boundaries for romantic partnership". 

So you can see how those boundaries can be way more complicated. Is it appropriate? Depends on a person. Boundaries are between people in a relationship. People do various stuff for a relationship. Even quit their job or change the cities or even countries. Some would consider all of that too much, but for those two people, its an appropriate thing to do to be together.

Also, in your case, its a bit more reasonable then all of this. Because, as you can read on the Forum practically every day, there are instances where those boundaries are crossed. There is a man who is afraid to break up with his girlfriend even though she texts her "gym buddy". There is another one(at least I dont think its the same one) who allows his girlfriend to go to coworkers houses even though those coworkers are very open in wanting to have sex with her. On the other side there are multiple women who saw their partners messaging and even agreeing to see other women. Imagine having those kind of partners. And you will see why people put those boundaries in place. Now you are maybe not their ex partner and you wouldnt do anything. But you can see how some things can be very problematic for them. And why they put the line in the sand somewhere.

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I am a little confused by this tbh.

One hand you're suggesting to only date people who share similar thoughts and values with respect to opposite sex friendships, meeting one-on-one etc.

But on the other hand you're saying it's okay to acquiesce to your partner's discomfort/needs even if/when those needs don't 100% align with your own values.

That's how I read it anyway, apologies if I read that wrong.  

Like in Batya's example, she was planning to meet her male friend but chose not to out of respect for her husband because he was uncomfortable with it.

Which is what my therapist advised also.

 

But our basic values align.  Including prioritizing each other.  So of course there will be situations that pop up where we don’t see exactly eye to eye. But totally bizarre demands - no -for example to me if he asked to go through my phone - I’d be in shock. And say no. No way.  I’d never ask him or feel the need to. 
 

[rainbowsandroses]

Just now, Batya33 said:

no -for example to me if he asked to go through my phone - I’d be in shock. And say no. No way.  I’d never ask him or feel the need t

It's funny you mention that Bat, I just read a post (this forum or another) where that actually happened and the guy was like sure no problem, I have nothing to hide.

I recall thinking at the time, she was insecure and if allowing her to look at his phone made her feel more secure, why not.

At least she didn't snoop behind his back as that imo is completely wrong. 

So I guess it really is an individual thing or a couple thing, whatever works for them? 

[Batya33]

Just now, rainbowsandroses said:

It's funny you mention that Bat, I just read a post (this forum or another) where that actually happened and the guy was like sure no problem, I have nothing to hide.

I recall thinking at the time, she was insecure and if allowing her to look at his phone made her feel more secure, why not.

At least she didn't snoop behind his back as that imo is completely wrong. 

So I guess it really is an individual thing or a couple thing, whatever works for them? 

I guess. I couldn’t be with someone that insecure that I’d have to give access to my phone for reassurance. Or any such personal items. But what others do. Not my business. It’s not abusive or “wrong”. 

[rainbowsandroses]

32 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

I wanted to open a thread about boundaries based on Jonah Hill case. Found it interesting enough for a serious discussion about it.

Jonah Hill years ago dated some surfer instructor I think. In meantime they broke up and he found another woman with whom I believe he got a child recently. Anyway, his ex recently leaked private DMs on her Instagram account. Where she accuses him of being controlling. His boundaries were even more specific then in you case:

- To not model

- No bikini Instagram pics

- No friendships with unstable women

- No innapropriate friendships with men

- No surfing with men

Its a bit problematic since her job is surfing. So bikini is kinda her work equipment and I would imagine her business rellies on men who would want her to teach them surfing. So if I were him I would know that his kind of boundaries wouldnt mash well with her and that its an uphill battle. But on the other hand, he just stated his boundaries. Which she did comply. She even took some Instagram pics he didnt like. If she didnt comply, she could easily leave. There was no forcing to stay there. For example lots of jealous people(especially men) would resort in threaten you, even with force. Jonah just said "If you need all above I am not the right partner for you. If those things bring you hapiness I support it and there will be no hard feelings. Those are my boundaries for romantic partnership". 

So you can see how those boundaries can be way more complicated. Is it appropriate? Depends on a person. Boundaries are between people in a relationship. People do various stuff for a relationship. Even quit thier job or change the cities or even countries. Some would consider all of that too much, but for those two people, its an appropriate thing to do to be together.

Also, in your case, its a bit more reasonable then all of this. Because, as you can read on the Forum practically every day, there are instances where those boundaries are crossed. There is a man who is afraid to break up with his girlfriend even though she texts her "gym buddy". There is another one(at least I dont think its the same one) who allows his girlfriend to go to coworkers houses even though those coworkers are very open in wanting to have sex with her. On the other side there are multiple women who saw their partners messaging and even agreeing to see other women. Imagine having those kind of partners. And you will see why people put those boundaries in place. Now you are maybe not their ex partner and you wouldnt do anything. But you can see how some things can be very problematic for them. And why they put the line in the sand somewhere.

Thanks @Kwothe28.

I read about Jonah Hill too, I'm not sure what to think about it.

Controlling?  Insecure?

He gave her the option of accepting his boundaries or not and specified she was free to do as she wished but if she did, she wasn't a good match for him.

At the time of reading, I kind of admired him for remaining true to his boundaries no matter how unreasonable or outrageous they were to others. 

I'm still on the fence about it though because they do seem quite extreme!

 

 

 

[boltnrun]

I have a big issue with the word "allow". No adult human has the right to give "permission" to another adult human. Or to be in a position where they feel they have the right to "allow" or "disallow" something.

Now, if my partner said "It makes me uncomfortable for you to watch a movie at your single male friend's home. I would feel more comfortable if you two met for lunch at a restaurant instead." I could understand and would respect his wishes and not go to the male friend's home. But if he said "I will not ALLOW you to go", we'd have a problem.

Same with phones. If he asks (or demands) to go through my phone there's going to be a very unpleasant conversation.

[rainbowsandroses]

9 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

But if he said "I will not ALLOW you to go", we'd have a problem.

Yes of course but that is a completely different thing. 

That IS controlling and I would never respond positively to that.

Can't imagine why anyone would but I suppose some people would due to fear of losing the relationship or perhaps they enjoy being dominated like that.

Not my thing.

 

[rainbowsandroses]

44 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Same with phones. If he asks (or demands) to go through my phone there's going to be a very unpleasant conversation.

I've never had this happen but can't imagine I'd respond favorably to it.

Making demands on your partner, not "allowing" them to do something that makes you uncomfortable or causes insecurity are NEVER good imo so I'm 100% with ya on that.

 

[Kwothe28]

17 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I read about Jonah Hill too, I'm not sure what to think about it.

Controlling?  Insecure?

That is why I found it an interesting case for a discussion about boundaries. You can make a case that his boundaries were appropriate. For example in a lot of cases your friendships reflect who you are. If your friend is unstable and innapropriate, and you spend a lot of time with that person, chances are, you are too. Lots of times all you need to look is persons friends to see who that person is. So him having reserves even about her woman friends, is not really that unusual. But on the other hand you can make a case about controlling and insecure part also. As he did asked her to delete some Instagram bikini pics he was uncomfortable about. I find policing social network accounts silly in general. Dunno about other countries but here some married couples have joint Facebook accounts. They say because they dont need a separate one since they are married, but we all know that the real reason is mostly because they dont trust each other with separate one and want to both have access to one account. Its silly and cringy at the same time.

[spinstermanquee]

24 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

But if he said "I will not ALLOW you to go", we'd have a problem

Same with phones. If he asks (or demands) to go through my phone there's going to be a very unpleasant conversation.

Funny how this goes.  I would never imagine looking through my husband's phone or computer, or his personal effects and glove box / dopp kit / vault / files etc.  I think if there is snooping, there is drama, controlling, shenanigans (oftentimes from the party doing the snooping) or sadly, insecurity that will eventually ruin the relationship.  In any case, nothing positive comes from the behaviors.  I have never once gone in my husband's wallet unless he specifically instructed me (a boundary we established in the beginning of our relationship).  Same with my handbag - he would never stick his hands in it unless I asked him to (he's too scared of falling in and getting swallowed up but that's an internet meme, lol).

[boltnrun]

If my husband needed something out of my purse he would pick it up and bring it to me and ask me for whatever it was. Same went for his wallet. If I needed the debit card I would ask him, not go pawing through his wallet.

[Jaunty]

I'm in the camp of "values must align" in order to be in a successful relationship, for me.   At least values pertaining to opposite sex friendships.  

It's not a problem because since I reached a certain stage of life (about 30 years ago) I crossed a threshold where I would not be interested in a person who would have a problem with me having a friendship with a person of the opposite sex.   Prior to that, I had relationships with insecure people and I myself was also insecure in that way.  So, our values did align.  But it was those relationships, which were very constrained and limited due to the insecurities either, or both of us, that taught me that I didn't want that kind of thing in my relationships going forward.  

I'm in a very solid, and monogamous LTR.  My ex is a part of our lives.  She is the mother of my adult daughter.  She is remarried.  They've stayed with us for holidays and family events, because we are "family."  My partner has male friends, and I have female friends.

Interestingly, in this context, we have very strong boundaries and are super respectful of each others' privacy.  Neither of us has put them in place, it's natural.    We would not think of looking at each other's phones or requesting to do that.  Don't look into her purse, I bring it over if I want something out of it (and, yes, I'm afraid of being engulfed).  The freedom each of us have to conduct our friendships as we choose is actually part of the same approach to healthy boundaries.  Neither of us would ever dream of standing in the way of a friendship - and both of us are very trustworthy and would not entertain a friendship with someone who might have designs on us or perhaps we found uncomfortably attractive.  

That's the only kind of relationship that interests me and fortunately I'm with someone that feels the same.

 

 

[bluecastle]

4 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I think it's about finding someone with similar values about boundaries/loyalty etc. 

Big picture, echoing others, I think this is most important.

Otherwise, the word "boundaries" ends up becoming a more palatable synonym for "incompatibility"—a pretty common mix-up, I think, and a pocket theory of mine is that part of the reason "boundaries" is such a modern buzzword is because a lot of people are trying to find language to justify jagged partnerships.

(Or, if you want to get into the Jonah Hill stuff, that's an example of someone using the word "boundaries" as a synonym for "my feral insecurities" and/or "emotional abuse," which is also a thing.)

Anyhow, I'm all for some compromising in the sense of understanding where what's normal to me might throw my partner, and adjust course. But per the examples you gave, rainbow? Nah, that's no fly territory for me. But that's because my values are such that men and women not only can, but should, interact with each other outside of romance. I respect that many people don't share that value. 

In short, "boundaries" are a lot easier to maintain with those who share your world view.