Appropriate Boundaries in a LTR - Jealousy

[Tinydance]

On 8/2/2023 at 4:14 AM, Andrina said:

One element of relationship happiness is to only date someone who shares your thoughts on relationship boundaries. Some couples are totally okay with each other having opposite sex friendships. Some couples are okay if the opposite sex friendship has been a long one, since childhood, etc., but not okay if their partner forms new friendships of the opposite sex. Some people are okay with casual friendships with co-workers of the opposite sex, unless it gets into the "work-husband"/"work wife" territory. Some don't want their partner having any opposite sex friendships.

Know what you're comfortable with and choose someone who has the same views. But know that some choices, too liberal with no bounds for some people, might involve a smaller dating pool.

I totally agree with this. I know this post wasn't about polyamory, but I actually somehow ended up making a lot of polyamorous friends. In the big city where I live polyamory seems more common. The reason why I'm mentioning it is because I realised from my polyamorous friends that what's important is to date people who share your views and beliefs on what dating and relationships should be like. For example, polyamorous people are fine with their partner dating other people because they're also dating others, and they both agree with this.

I think it's the same thing with having friends of the opposite gender. My personal belief is that it's fine to have friends of the opposite gender, as long as nothing romantic or sexual is actually going on. And as long as you're honest to your partner about those friends and you don't act like you're dating them. E.g. You're not doing things which cross into dating territory. For example, staying at their house, going out often for dinner, movies, trips away. Or if you are doing those things, then you do it as a group and also invite your partner.

I have a couple of close male friends. One of them I've known for 12 years and one for about 8 - 9 years. They're very good friends of mine and one of them is actually part of my whole friendship group. So to be honest, I wouldn't get rid of them if my partner asked me to. Also getting rid of one of them would mean I wouldn't really be able to hang out with my whole group of friends, as we often all spend time all together. I also have a few male friends who are not as close and quite a few male acquaintances.

All my partners also had female friends and it didn't really bother me. I guess even if I did feel jealous, I didn't act on it and didn't really say anything. I wasn't jealous of most of the female friends and maybe only rarely if they were attractive or something lol

In my opinion it's fine to go for lunch with your male colleague at work if it's really just platonic. I'm pretty sure I've done that in the past and I've seen other colleagues do it. I think the important thing is just to act appropriate and not overstep boundaries. Like, not starting to text that colleague all the time, go out every weekend, stay out late together etc. If you just get lunch or coffee on your lunch break at work and speak occasionally outside of work, I don't see the problem.

Having said all that, I think that not everyone is fine with this and people can have different views on it. I've seen people range from actually asking their partner to delete every single opposite gender person from their social media, to being very chilled about it. I think that if you're dating someone who doesn't share your views on this, it's most likely not going to work out. In my case, if someone I was dating asked me to get rid of my make friends, I'd need to get rid of them instead lol But another woman who doesn't have many male friends or doesn't really care might comply with what their partner wants. Also there are women who don't want their partner to have opposite gender friends so they probably don't want any either.

 

[Tinydance]

On 8/2/2023 at 4:31 AM, rainbowsandroses said:

I am a little confused by this tbh.

One hand you're suggesting to only date people who share similar thoughts and values with respect to opposite sex friendships, meeting one-on-one etc.

But on the other hand you're saying it's okay to acquiesce to your partner's discomfort/needs even if/when those needs don't 100% align with your own values.

That's how I read it anyway, apologies if I read that wrong.  

Like in Batya's example, she was planning to meet her male friend but chose not to out of respect for her husband because he was uncomfortable with it.

Which is what my therapist advised also.

 

Well I think it just comes down to what every individual wants to do. For example, if my partner said "Don't hang out with or talk to your male friends", I personally wouldn't do it. I need a partner who will accept that I have some male friends. I mean, most of my friends are actually female or gay guys anyway.

There are some people though who will do what their partner asked them to do. I guess it also depends on how much someone values their friendships and how long they've known the friends. I guess if I met a guy at a friend's party or something and he added me to social media and started messaging a lot. If my partner didn't like it, I'd probably be happy to stop messaging or even delete the guy from my social media. That's because he'd be basically a stranger I just met. But I wouldn't stop talking to my male friends that I've known for years.

Personally I don't think you need to just do what your partner wants it's one of those things where it's subjective. I think for example having opposite gender friends or watching porn is personal opinion which may differ from individual to individual. There are people who don't want their partner to watch porn and will tell them to stop. Or will tell their partner not to have opposite gender friends. I don't think you have to stop doing it if you don't want to but you just need to find a partner who is OK with it.

Again, I'm not saying your partner has to accept it if you cross boundaries. E.g. Stay the night at a male friend's house or constantly message a male friend. 

[Tinydance]

On 8/2/2023 at 5:02 AM, rainbowsandroses said:

Thanks @Andrina.  I used to believe this too. 

However, I think I'm liking how Batya handled it and what my therapist advised. 

That it's okay to sometimes go against your own values out of love and respect for your partner if they're uncomfortable with whatever you're doing (i.e having lunch one-on-one with a male friend).

 

 

 

I think you need to remember though that your therapist at the end of the day is just a person and they have their own opinions. To me it actually seems that your therapist isn't just listening and being impartial, but they're actually telling you what to do. I don't think therapists should do that. I mean, if this is what YOU wanted to do that's fine. But I think they were pushing their own personal opinion. To me that doesn't seem that professional.

[Tinydance]

On 8/2/2023 at 6:54 AM, rainbowsandroses said:

It's funny you mention that Bat, I just read a post (this forum or another) where that actually happened and the guy was like sure no problem, I have nothing to hide.

I recall thinking at the time, she was insecure and if allowing her to look at his phone made her feel more secure, why not.

At least she didn't snoop behind his back as that imo is completely wrong. 

So I guess it really is an individual thing or a couple thing, whatever works for them? 

Sorry but I think we need to make a differentiation when someone is feeling insecure in themselves, and when they're feeling insecure for a good reason. For example if I see my partner flirting with other women. Or commenting on other women's social media photos: "You're gorgeous, you're sexy, etc." then yes it makes sense why I'd feel insecure. But if my partner said he got a coffee on his lunch break with a female colleague and I asked to look through his phone, I don't think that's OK. I mean, just because he grabbed a coffee with someone at work doesn't just automatically mean he's into her or something is going on. I think it depends on the situation.

Personally I'm not a fan of going through your partner's phone in general. I think if you're noticing signs your partner might be  cheating or flirting with others, then best to break up with them. I don't think going through their phone would change the fact they're doing it. And if you don't notice anything then why do you need to go through your partner's phone? If someone is just feeling insecure for no reason then it's actually their issue. 

[Tinydance]

On 8/2/2023 at 7:19 AM, boltnrun said:

I have a big issue with the word "allow". No adult human has the right to give "permission" to another adult human. Or to be in a position where they feel they have the right to "allow" or "disallow" something.

Now, if my partner said "It makes me uncomfortable for you to watch a movie at your single male friend's home. I would feel more comfortable if you two met for lunch at a restaurant instead." I could understand and would respect his wishes and not go to the male friend's home. But if he said "I will not ALLOW you to go", we'd have a problem.

Same with phones. If he asks (or demands) to go through my phone there's going to be a very unpleasant conversation.

This 100%

[Tinydance]

On 8/2/2023 at 8:08 AM, Jaunty said:

I'm in the camp of "values must align" in order to be in a successful relationship, for me.   At least values pertaining to opposite sex friendships.  

It's not a problem because since I reached a certain stage of life (about 30 years ago) I crossed a threshold where I would not be interested in a person who would have a problem with me having a friendship with a person of the opposite sex.   Prior to that, I had relationships with insecure people and I myself was also insecure in that way.  So, our values did align.  But it was those relationships, which were very constrained and limited due to the insecurities either, or both of us, that taught me that I didn't want that kind of thing in my relationships going forward.  

I'm in a very solid, and monogamous LTR.  My ex is a part of our lives.  She is the mother of my adult daughter.  She is remarried.  They've stayed with us for holidays and family events, because we are "family."  My partner has male friends, and I have female friends.

Interestingly, in this context, we have very strong boundaries and are super respectful of each others' privacy.  Neither of us has put them in place, it's natural.    We would not think of looking at each other's phones or requesting to do that.  Don't look into her purse, I bring it over if I want something out of it (and, yes, I'm afraid of being engulfed).  The freedom each of us have to conduct our friendships as we choose is actually part of the same approach to healthy boundaries.  Neither of us would ever dream of standing in the way of a friendship - and both of us are very trustworthy and would not entertain a friendship with someone who might have designs on us or perhaps we found uncomfortably attractive.  

That's the only kind of relationship that interests me and fortunately I'm with someone that feels the same.

 

 

I feel like I could have written this post lol This is exactly how I feel.

[Tinydance]

4 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I have one male friend, I will call him G, who used to be my boss; after I left that job we stayed in touch and he's been a good friend throughout the years. 

My STBX husband didn't like it.  He knew about my friendship with G from the very early days and claimed he had NO issue with it.

He presented himself to be a secure open-minded man, a man who had no issues with opposite sex friendships.

Nevertheless, once married he felt it was "inappropriate" even though I had offered to introduce them, all three of us get together, perhaps THEY could become friends in their own right. 

He still didn't like it and asked me to end our friendship.  I just couldn't do it, not because I have a "thing" for G but because I felt his request was unreasonable and like @Jauntysaid controlling, which is not what I'm about at all!  

And if I had acquiesced and ended the friendship, where would it stop?  

Anyway, VERY long story short I came to the conclusion he didn't trust me and that was that. 

He moved out.

After that, I sought therapy hence this thread and why I began questioning things. 

Like what I posted in my initial post about "giving up a little bit of yourself for your partner" out of love and respect blah blah.. 

Things my therapist had advised me.

I thought it made sense but then realized after Jaunty's and bluecastle's posts particularly that I need to stay true to myself too. 

What hurt me the most though is that I was/am a REALLY loyal girlfriend and wife, I am not an 'attention seeker' or require endless amounts of validation, I don’t even have SM anymore. 

I never hid anything from him, was always honest when questioned and took my vows and committment very seriously.

it wasn't enough he still didnt trust me, and now it's done. 

Sometimes I think perhaps HE was the one cheating and projecting on to me but who knows. 

Lesson learned, my husband and I married much MUCH too quickly without truly knowing each other.  

I will never make that mistake again.

Thanks again guys, and glad I created this thread, I've learned a lot from all of of you. 

 

 

Well bottom line is that for some reason your husband just didn't trust you from the get go. That is unfortunate.

[Tinydance]

2 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

No, he simply felt it was inappropriate for a married woman to a have a semi-close male friend she shared things with other than her husband.

I do think on some level he felt threatened by it or maybe just uncomfortable.

Jealous?  

It became a real thorn in our marriage. 

Others advised to end the friendship, that it wasn't worth losing my husband BUT in truth I began losing respect for him because of his attitude.

I mean why not just meet him as I suggested and become friends with him himself?

IDK perhaps he used it as an excuse to leave, I've thought about that.

 

I think the fact he basically ended the marriage over this is quite over the top. If there was nothing going on with you and that friend and no signs of anything then this is very overboard. He basically said "me or him" and that's not fair. I think men and women can be friends if they're not attracted to each other. I know maybe it's rare but not every single man is into every single woman. 

Also I'm not sure if I'm just saying this as someone who didn't succeed at having long romantic relationships lol But all my relationships only lasted about 1.5 - 2 years and some of my friendships with my male friends or acquaintances lasted like 10 - 20 years. What if I got rid of the friends and after two years it was over with my partner? Then I wouldn't have any of them in my life. 

[Jaunty]

Even though I have a lot of opposite sex friends, I don't have even one of those (who's heterosexual anyway) that I call up and chat for hours with, or ask to go to a movie, or any number of "date -like" things.  Not one.  Not because it would make my partner feel jealous or insecure, but because those are in the "relationship" department of my compartmentalized thinking, and that's where they belong. For ME. 

I do have one friend who I WOULD ask to go to movies or come over to watch some with me.  She and I used to be a part of a film group and we share a passion for it that my partner does not.   My partner and I love to watch movies or some shows, but I don't think she would be that interested in a marathon of Fellini.  She'd do it for me, but honestly she'd be grateful for that friend to come along and relieve her of the spousal duty.

Same friend - obsessed with Scrabble like me, and we can stay up til all hours playing it.

These shared interests are not threatening to my relationship, I am 100% clear on that and so's my partner.

The friend lives in Berlin (with husband and 2 kids) and we are in the USA so these things happen very rarely, but when they have, everybody is happy with it.

[rainbowsandroses]

3 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I think the fact he basically ended the marriage over this is quite over the top. If there was nothing going on with you and that friend and no signs of anything then this is very overboard. He basically said "me or him" and that's not fair. I think men and women can be friends if they're not attracted to each other. I know maybe it's rare but not every single man is into every single woman. 

Also I'm not sure if I'm just saying this as someone who didn't succeed at having long romantic relationships lol But all my relationships only lasted about 1.5 - 2 years and some of my friendships with my male friends or acquaintances lasted like 10 - 20 years. What if I got rid of the friends and after two yearas over with my partner? Then I wouldn't have any of them in my life. 

I don't have much time right now @Tinydancebut thank you for all your responses; I will have a chance to read them all more thoroughly tomorrow.

Quickly for now though, my husband didn't end the marriage; it was a mutual decision and there were many factors involved not just the issue with my male friend.

I had two miscarriages, I lost my brother to cancer and took the loss quite hard and because we married so quickly, we had not built enough of a foundation to get us through those tragic events.

That's the short version.

My husband also worked A LOT, he was a new entrepreneur and we simply drifted apart emotionally.

It didn't end solely because of my friendship with my former boss; he never said or suggested "it's him or me," it was nothing like that, and apologies if the way I posted it made it sound like it was. 

I'm still trying to make sense of it all and made the comment because it's something I've wondered about, if it played a bigger role than I originally thought.