Do I seem like I'm playing games?

[Sportster2005]

He says he's not looking for sex, but his ACTIONS certainly indicate otherwise, don't you think?

 

Second, what would you expect him to say? Admit that all he's looking for is sex? And plans on ghosting afterwards? No man would ever admit that.

 

I'm not sure what your point is. Men want sex. And our roll is most often initiator. He's supposed to seduce her. It would get pretty freakin boring if we just sat on the couch and said "are you ready now?". Every woman I've dated I've wanted to have sex with. Why is it even a question?

 

This suspicion that every man just wants sex, because we want sex is tiring. It's the same tired saw of women are golddiggers. Enough already.

 

So if a man swears he doesn't want sex, but tries to be with his gf, that's somehow incongruent. I think we can all properly infer he means he doesn't want just sex. He doesn't have to explicitly say it. So that raises suspicion?? And if he doesn't say he doesn't want sex, what does that mean? He wants just sex because he hasn't said he doesn't want sex. Pretty hard for a man to win, isn't it?

[CrystalBNY]

Continue to take your time and don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable. It's always wise to wait. Haste often makes waste. You are not playing games, I think you are making mature and wise choices

[katrina1980]

I'm not sure what your point is. Men want sex. And our roll is most often initiator. He's supposed to seduce her. It would get pretty freakin boring if we just sat on the couch and said "are you ready now?". Every woman I've dated I've wanted to have sex with. Why is it even a question?

 

This suspicion that every man just wants sex, because we want sex is tiring. It's the same tired saw of women are golddiggers. Enough already.

So if a man swears he doesn't want sex, but tries to be with his gf, that's somehow incongruent. I think we can all properly infer he means he doesn't want just sex. He doesn't have to explicitly say it. So that raises suspicion?? And if he doesn't say he doesn't want sex, what does that mean? He wants just sex because he hasn't said he doesn't want sex. Pretty hard for a man to win, isn't it?

 

Well I certainly don't feel like all men want is sex, like I said many if not most want relationships also, in addition to, but to say they don't want sex is a bit disingenuous.

 

I have never met a man who did not want sex, which is fabulous, considering I want it too!

 

So I don't hold that against him at all; I have had sex early on (VERY early on), felt good about it, and it's always worked out well for me! Led to LTRs in fact.

 

However, IF I ever wanted to wait because I was not comfortable yet or whatevs, I would NOT appreciate being told I am "overthinking" or have "intimacy issues" or having to explain my reasons for wanting to wait ad nauseum like this guy is doing.

 

That is BS and if you cannot recognize the difference, and believe it's the same ole **** in every situation and that it's "tiring," then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Every man is different, every situation is different.

 

Ideally his motives and intentions would always be good, but unfortunately that is not always the case. There are scammers, liars, men who will ghost or flake or just lose interest after sex.

 

Perhaps if you could be a woman for like TWO MINUTES, you would understand this better.

[mustlovedogs]

Katrina, I fall somewhere in the spectrum between you and Sportster.

 

How do we know he's pressuring her and not just trying to make her more comfortable and seduce her? Where's the balance? He has to put some moves on (gender normative roles say this will be the case at least the majority of the time). And how will he know when it's ok to try again?

 

It's possible he's pressuring her, it's possible he's seducing her, and it's possible he's attempting to seduce her while awkwardly putting too much pressure on her without ill intent.

[katrina1980]

Katrina, I fall somewhere in the spectrum between you and Sportster.

 

How do we know he's pressuring her and not just trying to make her more comfortable and seduce her? Where's the balance? He has to put some moves on (gender normative roles say this will be the case at least the majority of the time). And how will he know when it's ok to try again?

 

It's possible he's pressuring her, it's possible he's seducing her, and it's possible he's attempting to seduce her while awkwardly putting too much pressure on her without ill intent.

 

I understand (better than most) that a man needs to escalate physically, as well he should! Meaning continue to "court" her, take her out, amp up the kissing, the physical all in an attempt to seduce her.

 

I totally get that and would welcome it! Assuming I was very attracted to him, which I would be otherwise I wouldn't be dating him.

 

Where I would draw the line is a man suggesting to me I am "overthinking," or have "intimacy issues." Or placing me in the position of having to constantly defend my reasons for wanting to wait.

 

What is that? And how is this seducing?

 

That is not seducing, not to me, that is pressuring. Borderline manipulating.

 

Maybe it's me, but that would turn me right off.

 

On the other hand, amping up the physical in an attempt to seduce me? Yes!

 

But when it's combined with the other things I mentioned, to me that a big red flag.

[mustlovedogs]

I understand (better than most) that a man needs to escalate physically, as well he should! Meaning continue to "court" her, take her out, amp up the kissing, the physical all in an attempt to seduce her.

 

I totally get that and would welcome it! Assuming I was very attracted to the guy, which I would be otherwise I wouldn't be dating him.

 

Where I would draw the line is a man suggesting to me I am "overthinking," or have "intimacy issues." Or placing me in the position of having to constantly defend my reasons for wanting to wait.

 

How is this seducing?

 

That is not seducing, not to me, that is pressuring. Borderline manipulating.

 

Maybe it's me, but that would turn me right off.

 

On the other hand, amping up the physical in an attempt to seduce me? Yes!

 

But when it's combined with the other things I mentioned, to me that a big red flag.

 

I agree, but perhaps he thinks she is overthinking it. It's even been suggested on this very thread. It could very well be his ungrateful attempt at trying to break down her walls to figure out what needs to be done to help her hurdle these fears.

 

I think manipulative would be saying he will leave if she doesn't put out. I think he's approaching sketchy, but it could just be poor emotional intelligence or judgement.

[katrina1980]

I agree, but perhaps he thinks she is overthinking it. It's even been suggested on this very thread. It could very well be his ungrateful attempt at trying to break down her walls to figure out what needs to be done to help her hurdle these fears.

 

I think manipulative would be saying he will leave if she doesn't put out. I think he's approaching sketchy, but it could just be poor emotional intelligence or judgement.

 

I don't think any man would ever say this to a woman. Not if he has half a brain anyway. lol

 

What he might do is PULL BACK, not call for awhile, if she didn't "put out." All in an attempt to scare her into thinking she's lost him. So she has sex with him.

 

That would be a manipulation.

 

But I also think accusing her of overthinking (even if she is - which she probably IS) and that she has "intimacy issues," and putting her on the defensive, is not serving him well here.

 

It's not the way to effectively seduce a woman, not imho anyway. It certainly wouldn't do anything for me except think he's an arrogant bully and turn me off.

 

But hey that's just me. Every woman will react differently.

 

If being accused of those things and feeling like you constantly have to defend your reasons for waiting, wouldn't bother another woman, or if it wouldn't bother the OP, then who am I to argue with that.

 

For me, I see those types of statements/accusations as red flags and again it would turn me off.

[LadyBug1988]

Do you guys think it would be beneficial if the next time he asks me why I won't sleep with him to tell him I'm done explaining myself as I have a million times already. If it's an issue, there's no ball and chain he's free to go pursue someone else.

[mustlovedogs]

Yes - I think you need to communicate clearly. But also you need to decide how you'll know you're ready and how you'll communicate it. You cannot tell him he can't make a move and then expect him to make the first move.

 

Katrina - I never said it's serving him well or is even a good strategy. I just don't like accusing guys of being terrible without solid evidence of it.

[katrina1980]

Yes - I think you need to communicate clearly. But also you need to decide how you'll know you're ready and how you'll communicate it. You cannot tell him he can't make a move and then expect him to make the first move.

 

Katrina - I never said it's serving him well or is even a good strategy. I just don't like accusing guys of being terrible without solid evidence of it.

 

I didn't say he was "terrible," I only said that personally I would feel like he was an arrogant bully if he said those things, and that it would be a big red flag.

 

I actually have no idea if he's terrible or not, I go by how I feel.

[notalady]

The opinions seem wide and varied, but I'll base my post only on the initial post you made. When reading the post, I felt like he's going at 100 miles an hour, progressing way too fast (for me anyway and seems like for you too). The fact that he's booking expensive tickets for 6 months ahead, and talks of a vacation together, and invitation to a family event, after only a few weeks of dating would be too much too soon for me. He seems keen to throw lots of money at you (luxury spa day, expensive VIP tickets, fancy dinners), all of these would make me feel uncomfortable. This, together with the push for sex, makes me think he's not focused on getting to know you, but more so he wants to lock you down fast. Especially the fact that he asks you what you want to know -- he wants to convince you of who he is with words rather than show you who he is in reality, that's a red flag for me. Usually when someone behaves this way, to me it suggests this person doesn't want me to take time to get to know him before becoming emotionally invested, because he thinks once I get to know him, I might decide otherwise. I would slow things WAAAAAYYYY down if you decide to continue dating him.

 

Also I say push for sex because he repeatedly asked/tried to make a move, and in his words "testing your boundaries because they might change", as well as questioning if you have intimacy issues (that would've done it for me to be honest, if someone interprets my healthy enforcement of my boundaries as me having issues, I'd be done). One need not have to force himself on you to have it considered as pushing.

 

Another thing I noticed was that your boundaries are not coming from a place of strength, but fear driven. Your stated boundary is great, yes you should take time to get to know him and only have sex when you feel comfortable, yes there's nothing he can convince you in words, only his actions can show you who he is. But despite saying these things, you're going along with his very fast pace of progressing the relationship, you are second guessing yourself and worrying about if this "perfect guy" is going to leave you if you stick to your boundaries, you're afraid of what happens if you sleep with him, whether he will "turn bad", as if you're counting on delaying sex as a mechanism to deter someone from treating you badly later. It doesn't work like that. You should be certain about your boundaries and not be swayed, but at the same time relaxed and focused on what you said you wanted to do -- get to know him as a person. You shouldn't need to explain or justify your boundaries other than stating it once, initially. You should trust your own judgement that if after getting to know him and feeling comfortable in your knowledge of him, then you should feel relatively confident that he won't change after sex, sex doesn't change who he is. Conversely, if his behaviour does change after sex, you should feel confident that you have the strength to make good decisions and to walk away swiftly.

 

Waiting for sex, to me, is only so that you can remain relatively objective (as you're not as emotionally invested without bonding through sex), and being able to observe his actions and assess logically if this person has compatible values, goals and is of good character etc. Again, it needs to come from a place of strength, not fear.

[katrina1980]

Do you guys think it would be beneficial if the next time he asks me why I won't sleep with him to tell him I'm done explaining myself as I have a million times already. If it's an issue, there's no ball and chain he's free to go pursue someone else.

 

LB, if this is how you truly feel, then yes by all means communicate that.

 

At this point, I think you'd be justified.

 

I mean enough already. Like you said, if he has an issue with waiting, then there's the door.

[katrina1980]

The opinions seem wide and varied, but I'll base my post only on the initial post you made. When reading the post, I felt like he's going at 100 miles an hour, progressing way too fast (for me anyway and seems like for you too). The fact that he's booking expensive tickets for 6 months ahead, and talks of a vacation together, and invitation to a family event, after only a few weeks of dating would be too much too soon for me. He seems keen to throw lots of money at you (luxury spa day, expensive VIP tickets, fancy dinners), all of these would make me feel uncomfortable. This, together with the push for sex, makes me think he's not focused on getting to know you, but more so he wants to lock you down fast. Especially the fact that he asks you what you want to know -- he wants to convince you of who he is with words rather than show you who he is in reality, that's a red flag for me. Usually when someone behaves this way, to me it suggests this person doesn't want me to take time to get to know him before becoming emotionally invested, because he thinks once I get to know him, I might decide otherwise. I would slow things WAAAAAYYYY down if you decide to continue dating him.

 

Also I say push for sex because he repeatedly asked/tried to make a move, and in his words "testing your boundaries because they might change", as well as questioning if you have intimacy issues (that would've done it for me to be honest, if someone interprets my healthy enforcement of my boundaries as me having issues, I'd be done). One need not have to force himself on you to have it considered as pushing.

 

Another thing I noticed was that your boundaries are not coming from a place of strength, but fear driven. Your stated boundary is great, yes you should take time to get to know him and only have sex when you feel comfortable, yes there's nothing he can convince you in words, only his actions can show you who he is. But despite saying these things, you're going along with his very fast pace of progressing the relationship, you are second guessing yourself and worrying about if this "perfect guy" is going to leave you if you stick to your boundaries, you're afraid of what happens if you sleep with him, whether he will "turn bad", as if you're counting on delaying sex as a mechanism to deter someone from treating you badly later. It doesn't work like that. You should be certain about your boundaries and not be swayed, but at the same time relaxed and focused on what you said you wanted to do -- get to know him as a person. You shouldn't need to explain or justify your boundaries other than stating it once, initially. You should trust your own judgement that if after getting to know him and feeling comfortable in your knowledge of him, then you should feel relatively confident that he won't change after sex, sex doesn't change who he is. Conversely, if his behaviour does change after sex, you should feel confident that you have the strength to make good decisions and to walk away swiftly.

 

Waiting for sex, to me, is only so that you can remain relatively objective (as you're not as emotionally invested without bonding through sex), and being able to observe his actions and assess logically if this person has compatible values, goals and is of good character etc. Again, it needs to come from a place of strength, not fear.

 

Very VERY well said! Better than anything I have written, with all my "emoting" that's for sure.

 

LB, if you read (listen to) no other post, listen to this one! Spot on.

[Batya33]

Agree with Notalady and agree that waiting has the benefit of not having the complications that sex can bring early on to a relationship including emotional attachment, concerns about pregnancy risk that early on and even issues with compatibility which might come up later on but then you have a foundation of closeness/connection/history so that the couple is willing not to throw in the towel if it's not amazing the first time. Also depending on how you feel about the whole "men respect women more who wait" that might be a factor. I don't think it should be at this point, meaning that usually comes up if the woman has sex right away, especially after protesting, and especially with no monogamy/exclusivity - and I agree it's silly but it might not bother you, it might just be "how it is". However I agree that if you keep up the passivity and overexplaining it might become just a game for him -a challenge of seduction etc. I'm glad you plan to talk with him again and re-clarify.

[Sportster2005]

The opinions seem wide and varied, but I'll base my post only on the initial post you made. When reading the post, I felt like he's going at 100 miles an hour, progressing way too fast (for me anyway and seems like for you too). The fact that he's booking expensive tickets for 6 months ahead, and talks of a vacation together, and invitation to a family event, after only a few weeks of dating would be too much too soon for me. He seems keen to throw lots of money at you (luxury spa day, expensive VIP tickets, fancy dinners), all of these would make me feel uncomfortable. This, together with the push for sex, makes me think he's not focused on getting to know you, but more so he wants to lock you down fast.

 

I agree with this. This doesn't appear to be a case of "just wants sex.' On the contrary. It's a guy that wants it all, and he wants it now. I suspect he wants to get her off the market ASAP and it trying to buy/manipulate his way to a relationship. All the standard reasons apply. Needy, clingy, etc.

 

The red flags notalady listed, I think, are the bigger issue. The OP is worried about sex. She should be worried about the bigger picture with this guy.

[katrina1980]

I agree with this. This doesn't appear to be a case of "just wants sex.' On the contrary. It's a guy that wants it all, and he wants it now. I suspect he wants to get her off the market ASAP and it trying to buy/manipulate his way to a relationship. All the standard reasons apply. Needy, clingy, etc.

 

The red flags notalady listed, I think, are the bigger issue. The OP is worried about sex. She should be worried about the bigger picture with this guy.

 

Fair enough, but I think it would behoove the OP, and all women (and men for that matter as Sporster you lamented the same thing yesterday), to *consider* the fact that in some cases (not all), the stronger and faster a man (or woman if roles are flipped) comes on, the faster he may leave (after sex in most cases).

 

Sure he very well may want to "lock her down" for a LTR, but it is also quite possible he is a "hit it and quit it" type of man too, as these men DO exist. And many if not most of them come on like gangbusters too, like this man.

 

At this point, no one knows, including the OP, but based on his accusations (she is over-thinking, has 'intimacy issues'?), and his constant badgering her about when will she be ready for sex), personally I would not rule it out.

 

In my experience, a man who cares and whose goal is to "lock me down" does not behave this way.

[Sportster2005]

Fair enough, but I think it would behoove the OP, and all women (and men for that matter as Sporster you lamented the same thing yesterday), to *consider* the fact that in some cases (not all), the stronger and faster a man (or woman if roles are flipped) comes on, the faster he may leave (after sex in most cases).

 

Sure he very well may want to "lock her down" for a LTR, but it is also quite possible he is a "hit it and quit it" type of man too, as these men DO exist. And many if not most of them come on like gangbusters too, like this man.

 

At this point, no one knows, including the OP, but based on his accusations (she is over-thinking, has 'intimacy issues'?), and his constant badgering her about when will she be ready for sex), personally I would not rule it out.

 

In my experience, a man who cares and whose goal is to "lock me down" does not behave this way.

 

I don't think a guy is going to plan far in the future, and spend that kind of money, if he just wanted sex. It makes no sense.

 

Yes, my experience is people that come on strong and fast, leave just as fast. I suspect his pressuring for sex is insecurity, not desire to just have sex.

 

Although we simply don't know what is motives are, to me they look more like someone coming on strong like any other person coming on strong.

 

Ultimately if the OP is uncomfortable with the badgering, she has a decision to make. Personally I think she should dump him. Men can and should try to seduce their woman by showing control and respecting boundaries. I still make a lot of mistakes dating. But I'm reasonably sure the best way to sex is to show desire for a woman while simultaneously taking the lead from her. Initiate, respect and follow after initiation. If a woman says no, then stop and ask what else she would like to do. Usually a couple of hours later she's taking you by the hand and heading toward the bedroom.

[katrina1980]

I don't think a guy is going to plan far in the future, and spend that kind of money, if he just wanted sex. It makes no sense.

 

Yes, my experience is people that come on strong and fast, leave just as fast. I suspect his pressuring for sex is insecurity, not desire to just have sex.

 

Although we simply don't know what is motives are, to me they look more like someone coming on strong like any other person coming on strong.

 

Ultimately if the OP is uncomfortable with the badgering, she has a decision to make. Personally I think she should dump him. Men can and should try to seduce their woman by showing control and respecting boundaries. I still make a lot of mistakes dating. But I'm reasonably sure the best way to sex is to show desire for a woman while simultaneously taking the lead from her. Initiate, respect and follow after initiation. If a woman says no, then stop and ask what else she would like to do. Usually a couple of hours later she's taking you by the hand and heading toward the bedroom.

 

I agree with you! Wholeheartedly.

 

That said, it *is* possible however he may *believe* he wants a relationship, his goal is a relationship, when the reality is that could all change once he achieves his goal (sex).

 

How many threads have we read from women (and men) lamenting this?

 

Yes men will spend lots of money, plan for future, etc .... at the moment the *chase* is on, he is enjoying the challenge and/or is living in a sort of fantasy.

 

Once REALITY hits (after his goal is achieved --sex), he is off and running to his next conquest.

 

This DOES happen, more often than I would like to believe.

 

I am not saying this is what is happening here, only that it's *possible* and that OP should continue to maintain her boundaries, keep her eyes open, her wits about her and pay attention to his actions.

[Doofus]

It sounds to me (correct me if I'm wrong, and, if so, I apologize) that you're a grown woman and have been in sexual relationships before. Given that, the situation is simple. If you want to have sex with him, have sex with him. If you don't, then don't. But, if after a few weeks and many many dates, you don't want to have sex with him, then I assume, as probably does he, that you are not - as the book says - that into him, and that you're using him as a place holder until someone you really are physically into comes along.

[bgirl]

It sounds to me (correct me if I'm wrong, and, if so, I apologize) that you're a grown woman and have been in sexual relationships before. Given that, the situation is simple. If you want to have sex with him, have sex with him. If you don't, then don't. But, if after a few weeks and many many dates, you don't want to have sex with him, then I assume, as probably does he, that you are not - as the book says - that into him, and that you're using him as a place holder until someone you really are physically into comes along.

 

thank you!

[JaggerJim]

It sounds to me (correct me if I'm wrong, and, if so, I apologize) that you're a grown woman and have been in sexual relationships before. Given that, the situation is simple. If you want to have sex with him, have sex with him. If you don't, then don't. But, if after a few weeks and many many dates, you don't want to have sex with him, then I assume, as probably does he, that you are not - as the book says - that into him, and that you're using him as a place holder until someone you really are physically into comes along.

 

Now that's Playing Games :suspicion:

[Batya33]

It sounds to me (correct me if I'm wrong, and, if so, I apologize) that you're a grown woman and have been in sexual relationships before. Given that, the situation is simple. If you want to have sex with him, have sex with him. If you don't, then don't. But, if after a few weeks and many many dates, you don't want to have sex with him, then I assume, as probably does he, that you are not - as the book says - that into him, and that you're using him as a place holder until someone you really are physically into comes along.

 

Or, which was my case, the person's values mean that she/he waits for a time when they are seriously committed and in love. Even if she's had sexual relationships in the past -peoples' values can change (in my case my values and behavior were consistent throughout and had nothing to do with level of desire -many people delay acting on all sorts of desires because of values or long term goals, etc, not just sexual desire).

[JaggerJim]

Or, which was my case, the person's values mean that she/he waits for a time when they are seriously committed and in love. Even if she's had sexual relationships in the past -peoples' values can change (in my case my values and behavior were consistent throughout and had nothing to do with level of desire -many people delay acting on all sorts of desires because of values or long term goals, etc, not just sexual desire).

 

No offence Batya, but this is not the modern way to date. It may have been the way 30 years ago, but it isn't what people do today.

[Batya33]

No offence Batya, but this is not the modern way to date. It may have been the way 30 years ago, but it isn't what people do today.

 

LOL it sure is -you're just not in touch and/or focusing on stereotypes/social media. I dated 12 years ago and have many friends and acquaintances who date exactly this way. It's one approach and to me personally a much better one -intercourse is reserved for very serious/committed relationships, less risk if an accidental pregnancy occurs, more emotionally healthy and far less risk of STDs as far as the practical perspective. My approach was one reason I was rarely cynical about "men" and if I was it was short lived - one day or much less.

[notalady]

No offence Batya, but this is not the modern way to date. It may have been the way 30 years ago, but it isn't what people do today.

 

I don't even know what this "modern way" to date means. There isn't just one way of dating, you do what you're comfortable with and what works for you, if the other person has a very different idea of what works for them, then you're just not compatible or not looking for the same things.

 

I generally waited 1-2 months before sex, and after we've decided we're both now in a serious relationship. At that point I generally feel comfortable that I know this person reasonably well and feel good about where things are going, therefore comfortable with progressing to sex. I'm only 31. Most of my friends I know that are my age didn't sleep with their partners at least a month or two in, one of them waited 6 months, but that's a bit unusual.

 

I've been on so many dates that ended after 3-4 or even 5 dates because either person decided we're not compatible or it's just not right, I'd have slept with 100 people that mean nothing to me at the time and now if I had played by the whole 3 date rule, which is frankly ridiculous.