Is Morality Dead ?

[Hermes]

There's a lot of it around, Michael. I've seen it too. Breakups can and do occur, but bringing cruelty and destructiveness into the mix is horrendous.

 

They do say "what goes around, comes around". It does happen.

 

Case in point (I'll be brief). People I knew.

He had a good, loving and supportive wife (but quite an independent woman in her own way and definitely not the clingy type) , they had - at that stage - two adult children, good lifestyle, friends, ....

He hits on a peroxide floozie (I mean literally), and WWIII breaks out. He also happened to know PF's husband!

Divorce takes place, so painful to wife, her health suffered, home divided up, this was one really bad trip.

 

But, but, some years later we hear that peroxide floozie is not too stable, has some kind of compulsive behaviour, he hasn't a minute's peace with her, as she does things like vacuuming the apartment at all hours, lots of noise, 3 a.m. 5 a.m. whatever, and during the day too. What passed for "love" has of course gone out the window, he was miserable.

 

 

(I just had to smile when I heard it - yeh, I know I know......)

[Helpexpressme]

Michael - imagine if you were "stuck" with someone who you didn't want. FOREVER.

 

We were given free will for a reason.

[Hermes]

Michael, Michael. I know. But, you might as well be talking to the wall.

[faraday]

I think it is immoral to break up with someone to whom you have made a commitment unless they also want the break up or they have done something so appalling as to deserve the break up.

That's what the word commitment means to me - a promise you will fulfil.

 

I would absolutely hate if a partner stayed with me out of obligation. I don't want to ever be an obligation to someone...ever.

 

I choose my bf everyday. He chooses me every day. I find that.. comforting. Knowing that he's with me because he adores me. Because he wants to be with me. ...because he is picking me over every one else.

 

If he would keep rather be with someone else, I don't want to be the reason he's holding back. I don't want to be his second choice.. I want to be first.

[j.man]

Michael, I'm gonna start ripping some rancid farts around the apartment and watch anime whenever I'm not working. But my girlfriend will know I love and support her. She's gonna say, "I'm not happy." But then I'm gonna say, "Hey, hold your tongue you dweeb. Michael777 showed me the way. Unless I start beating your ass or cheating on you, you gotta suck it up because I love you."

[Hermes]

HelpExpress.

 

Whether we have free will or not is a discussion for another day.

 

Does anyone read anything on here LOL.

 

No one is SAYING a person should be stuck in a relationship. Breakups occur, of course they do. It is the manner of the treatment of the other which is the topic here, IMO. There is never, ever, ANY excuse for cruelty, demeaning or discarding the other person (by other person here we mean the innocent spouse or partner) just because one feels like it.

[j.man]

HelpExpress.

 

Whether we have free will or not is a discussion for another day.

 

Does anyone read anything on here LOL.

 

No one is SAYING a person should be stuck in a relationship. Breakups occur, of course they do. It is the manner of the treatment of the other which is the topic here, IMO. There is never, ever, ANY excuse for cruelty, demeaning or discarding the other person (by other person here we mean the innocent spouse or partner) just because one feels like it.

No, that's what you're saying. OP wants what he perceives as a valid excuse for a breakup. People simply not compatible or interested in the relationship need not apply.

[Hermes]

Talk about missing the point of the thread/discussion.

 

This makes me want to scream LOL.

 

No one is talking about staying through obligation.

 

It is about just bailing out on the "other" (who you still think is lovely, loving and supportive) just because you feel like it and to hell with it if you destroy him or her in the process.

[Blue Spiral]

OP, it sounds like you're looking for the older version of marriage--the one that was built around companionship, collaboration, and child-raising, as opposed to romance. I don't know why people are giving you grief for it*...it doesn't sound appealing to me, but it used to be the norm.

 

(* Well, I actually know why people are giving you grief for it; they don't like those of us that want to try something different.)

[Helpexpressme]

Talk about missing the point of the thread/discussion.

 

This makes me want to scream LOL.

 

No one is talking about staying through obligation.

 

It is about just bailing out on the "other" (who you still think is lovely, loving and supportive) just because you feel like it and to hell with it if you destroy him or her in the process.

 

Again Hermes, that's called life. And Michael can't expect every woman to want to remain in relationships with him, if they want to leave.

[j.man]

Talk about missing the point of the thread/discussion.

 

This makes me want to scream LOL.

 

No one is talking about staying through obligation.

 

It is about just bailing out on the "other" (who you still think is lovely, loving and supportive) just because you feel like it and to hell with it if you destroy him or her in the process.

No. I've followed every single word the OP has written. What you're suggesting comes nowhere close to his intention and he has repeatedly refuted such reasoning. He genuinely requires that something "appalling" occur in order to merit a breakup. He's not talking about the process of a breakup. You're like five miles ahead of him. He's still talking about the relationship.

 

OP's views would be much more in line with a society that encourages arranged marriage and "love" through sheer effort and tenacity, not compatibility.

[TMifune]

Michael, I'm gonna start ripping some rancid farts around the apartment and watch anime whenever I'm not working. But my girlfriend will know I love and support her. She's gonna say, "I'm not happy." But then I'm gonna say, "Hey, hold your tongue you dweeb. Michael777 showed me the way. Unless I start beating your ass or cheating on you, you gotta suck it up because I love you."

 

How strong of a relationship do you have if a few farts and cartoon porn are gonna make her walk?

 

No, that's what you're saying. OP wants what he perceives as a valid excuse for a breakup. People simply not compatible or interested in the relationship need not apply.

 

No, I believe OP simply doesn't like people giving up on relationships that are otherwise working simply because they've met someone else that they can feel attraction for. He's wondering what happened to the people who wanted to build something special with someone special instead of just expecting someone to step in and "meet all of their needs".

[Hermes]

Come on J.Man.

You are smarter than that, and I know it from your other postings.

 

As for romance (or rather the silly perception thereof), what a load of rubbish. Delusional.

 

Love, yes, (lots of it) companionship, yes, respect, yes (and not a lot of that around for sure), and there was certainly nothing wrong with my parents marriage, (their first and only) and dare I say it and knowing them, plenty of fun and partying too heh heh.

 

Problem is that nowadays a lot of people don't even know who they are themselves, never mind knowing how or what another person is!

[Seraphim]

Well, obviously I DO believe in commitment, I have been with the same man for 26 years and he was my first bf.

[TMifune]

Well, obviously I DO believe in commitment, I have been with the same man for 26 years and he was my first bf.

 

Gold Star

 

image removed

[j.man]

Come on J.Man.

You are smarter than that, and I know it from your other postings.

 

As for romance (or rather the silly perception thereof), what a load of rubbish. Delusional.

 

Love, yes, (lots of it) companionship, yes, respect, yes (and not a lot of that around for sure), and there was certainly nothing wrong with my parents marriage, (their first and only) and dare I say it and knowing them, plenty of fun and partying too heh heh.

 

Problem is that nowadays a lot of people don't even know who they are themselves, never mind knowing how or what another person is!

I'll concede that I've got a mild level of intelligence, and it's why I can see someone who's upset he's been burned in relationships where he has been dumped over incompatibility or other issues while he likely has showered them with love and support. Someone who wants to believe effort alone should qualify a relationship, which it can't.

 

It doesn't help this guy to put a healthy spin on an unhealthy attitude.

 

What you guys say is true, there are a lot of long-term couples out there who don't put the effort they should in. But this guy has been abundantly clear throughout each page.

[j.man]

How strong of a relationship do you have if a few farts and cartoon porn are gonna make her walk?

I mean... I work 8, 9 hours a day, sleep 6 or 7. Eight hours of anime and browning my pants up would drive most healthy people away and rightfully so.

No, I believe OP simply doesn't like people giving up on relationships that are otherwise working simply because they've met someone else that they can feel attraction for. He's wondering what happened to the people who wanted to build something special with someone special instead of just expecting someone to step in and "meet all of their needs".

Again, no. I don't know what 5 pages you guys have been reading, but if I gotta put together an highlight reel, I will.

[Helpexpressme]

Actually I got the gist of the thread that Michael thinks that when one committs, it should be for life.

 

That committment is forever. What a crock.

[browneyedgirl36]

No. I've followed every single word the OP has written. What you're suggesting comes nowhere close to his intention and he has repeatedly refuted such reasoning. He genuinely requires that something "appalling" occur in order to merit a breakup. He's not talking about the process of a breakup. You're like five miles ahead of him. He's still talking about the relationship.

 

OP's views would be much more in line with a society that encourages arranged marriage and "love" through sheer effort and tenacity, not compatibility.

 

This is what I got out of the original post, too. He's saying NO ONE should break up with ANYONE (in a committed relationship) unless 1) both people agree the breakup should happen; 2) someone has been treating someone "appallingly."

 

First of all, "appalling" behavior is subjective. I think most of us can agree that cheating and physical abuse are dealbreakers, but...what about if the other person is depressed and refuses help? What if they become a workaholic and are hardly ever home? What if they become really boring -- not wanting to do anything, not making conversation, not having any interests other than laying around watching TV? What if they start drinking too much and refuse to stop? What if they stop having sex with their partner for no discernible reason? What if they just stop communicating? Or start becoming really critical? Would any or all of these be considered "appalling"? Most of these things are not intentionally treating the other person badly, but....they all could contribute to someone wanting to leave a relationship.

 

Secondly, being devoted and loving is also subjective, in the sense that a person can PERCEIVE him or herself as devoted and loving when the other person doesn't perceive it that way at all. I mean, how many of us would actually say "I'm a terrible relationship partner!" Most people THINK they're doing a good job in their relationships, or at least putting in a reasonable effort. My ex thought he was a GREAT relationship partner, and quite frankly, he was a trainwreck who ALWAYS blamed the other person for his relationship issues -- me, his ex wife, his other ex-girlfriends -- even his parents and kids were at fault when his relationships with them were rocky. If you asked him, though, he's say he was devoted and loving and trying to make the relationships work. So....that's all a matter of perspective.

 

Sometimes, too, people just make mistakes and marry the wrong person, marry too young, etc. -- and they realize they are completely incompatible regardless of how much they care about one another. Should someone live 50 or 60 years in total incompatibility with a partner because it would be "immoral" to leave?

 

My point is this: This whole thing is WAY more complicated than just 'It's immoral to leave someone if they are a loving and devoted partner to you and haven't behaved appallingly.' There are SO many factors that go into someone deciding to leave a relationship. My current boyfriend has been divorced for the past four years. He admits he married the wrong person -- she was a lot older than he, she rushed the relationship, they moved in together right away, etc. -- and after a few years it became clear that they weren't compatible. He actually TRIED To make it work -- even sticking it out for TWO YEARS sleeping on the couch and them barely communicating, because he believed marriage was 'forever.' He tried to get her to talk to him, tried to get her to go to counseling, but she refused, so he went to counseling alone. Finally, he left her, feeling he had no other choice. She didn't want to get divorced, per se, she just wasn't sure she wanted to be married, and she wanted him to wait around indefinitely till she figured out what she wanted to do. He wasn't having that. She wasn't all that broken up about it, though -- she moved on right away, while he did not. Sometimes, things just don't work, and it's not because someone is beating someone or cheating on them. Sometimes, people just can't stay together, and usually, someone's going to get hurt. I've been there -- been dumped a few times -- but I never thought the other person was "immoral" for dumping me, no matter how hurt I was.

[Clinton]

I've read through this and basically it sounds like a bunch of whiney people who got dumped trying to demonize the ex that did it.

 

Happily ever after isn't a right. Commitment doesn't always last forever. People change, their wants and needs change, and sadly, often through no fault of their own, their feelings change.

 

Thats life. It doesn't come with garuntees. And trying to make the ex into the bad guy because they fell out of love with you is high school crap.

[TMifune]

I've read through this and basically it sounds like a bunch of whiney people who got dumped trying to demonize the ex that did it.

 

Happily ever after isn't a right. Commitment doesn't always last forever. People change, their wants and needs change, and sadly, often through no fault of their own, their feelings change.

 

Thats life. It doesn't come with garuntees. And trying to make the ex into the bad guy because they fell out of love with you is high school crap.

 

Falling out of love isn't something that "just happens". People say it just happens because they don't want to look at themselves and understand that they stopped giving. Feelings aren't some weird external things the just come out of nowhere. They're part of us and they come every bit as much from what we do and the energy we give to another person as they do from what that person gives to us.

 

Saying you just "fell out of love" or your "feelings changed" is a deflection of responsibility for what you didn't give to the relationship at hand. Every individual is 100% responsible for how they feel. Pretending otherwise is a cop-out.

[shessofly]

I'll concede that I've got a mild level of intelligence, and it's why I can see someone who's upset he's been burned in relationships where he has been dumped over incompatibility or other issues while he likely has showered them with love and support. Someone who wants to believe effort alone should qualify a relationship, which it can't.

 

It doesn't help this guy to put a healthy spin on an unhealthy attitude.

 

What you guys say is true, there are a lot of long-term couples out there who don't put the effort they should in. But this guy has been abundantly clear throughout each page.

 

this is how i interpreted it as well - that you should not ever break up unless you've been beaten or cheated on/lied to or some other horrible event.

[JustWishing]

No, Morality is not dead.....it's just that....not everyone has it.

[Clinton]

Falling out of love isn't something that "just happens". People say it just happens because they don't want to look at themselves and understand that they stopped giving. Feelings aren't some weird external things the just come out of nowhere. They're part of us and they come every bit as much from what we do and the energy we give to another person as they do from what that person gives to us.

 

Saying you just "fell out of love" or your "feelings changed" is a deflection of responsibility for what you didn't give to the relationship at hand. Every individual is 100% responsible for how they feel. Pretending otherwise is a cop-out.

 

Sorry but that's a crock. Sometimes, no matter how hard you try feelings change.

 

People change as they grow and sometimes they change enough they are no longer compatible with their significant other. It's sad, but it's not immoral.

 

Think how many divorces there are. Think how many people you date before you find the one you settle down with.

 

Billions of relationships end every year. Are all those people immoral.

 

You can be in love one day and not the next. And if you are aware of any scientific study that pinpoints the reason for that point it out.

 

This is life. It's the way it's always worked. And to think there's some moral aspect to it is ludicrous.

 

Yes, there are bad people out there. But i think the majority of us try our best to be just and fair in a relationship. It just doesnt work out a lot of times and there's no blame to be placed or judgement to be made.

[Shane Falco]

Gotta say I'm on team j.man. The OP has continuously said that people should be obligated to stay together no matter what unless one person is completely negligent or abusive. And people can "fall out of love" and not be guilty of not putting in effort. Things change as you grow, people evolve. You aren't interested in the same things now that you were 10 years earlier, and so on and so forth. During those changes, friends and lovers can change. I'm sure you had friends 10 years ago that you don't speak to now. That doesn't mean you're a bad person or neglectful, and same for them. Circumstances change, and sometimes, the people in your life change as well. It doesn't mean they are bad or you are bad, it just happens.

 

Now, there are certain people, be it friends and lovers, that your relationship deepens with during these changes. And that is what we all want. However, how are you going to find that person if you are forced to stay with another person who doesn't fit in your life out of obligation? Most people you come accross in your life, friends and lovers, will fade out naturally. But that process makes the ones that stay that much more valuable and special. But you'll never find such a thing with the free-will suppressing agenda that the OP seems to have.