Was this infidelity?

[Firiel]

Okay, so I've posted about my marriage issues here before. Just a quick recap-- (ex?)husband told me he didn't think he was in love with me anymore in November. Told me he was leaving me in December. I went out to see him for Christmas anyway (we were long-distance, due to his relocation, not mine). He decided to work things out. We did intensive therapy all month. I came back at the end of January, and he called me a week later breaking things off for good. I've barely heard from him since.

 

For me, labeling and classifying things helps with processing. He would never admit to being unfaithful (he thinks he is the golden child in all of this, that it was all brought on by me), but I'm really starting to think that what he's done qualifies as emotional infidelity. So... yeah, I want to get opinions about what you all think.

 

Things I know:

 

1. He was in contact with his ex in a pretty substantial way. And I had to pry for every bit of information regarding this contact. Even when he admitted having feelings for other women, he failed to mention that she was one of them. I had to specifically ask him if they were talking before he admitted to it. I don't know what else I didn't ask about that happened. I know they were in contact enough that she made posters for his band, so it was some kind of sustained back-and-forth thing. He told me she had said she still loved him. He didn't ever say what his part in that conversation was.

 

2. I found a love song he had written for her. Before this accusation is thrown around, I DID NOT SNOOP. I picked up a notebook as I was cleaning out his car and opened to the first page to see if if was mine or his. The first page was titled "HerName's Song." It was a really intense love song about how he would never stop loving her. There was a second draft on the second page. He first tried to tell me it was an old notebook from when they were together before. I told him that wasn't true. The notebook was obviously new and there were some translations on the third page I had heard him talking about just the other day. He then said it wasn't a song he had written her; it was a song he was trying to remember from when they dated. I doubt the truth of this, however, for obvious reasons.

 

3. He started comparing me to her. He literally said that she had set up standards that no one else could ever fulfill, and that they were standards he was making up-- she had literally been that great. He told me that he loved how she had always worn sexy underwear for him and dressed up for him. How great it was that she cooked for him and how he wished I could do that more. How she always wanted sex multiple times a day, and he knew no other woman could ever live up to that.

 

4. I think he might have physically cheated as well... when I got back for Christmas, he had shaved his chest. He said it was just because he got curious about what it would be like, but I know for a fact (he mentioned this while we were dating) that he shaved his chest while he and ex were together. He told me how glad he was that I didn't mind his hairy chest because his ex had always made him shave it.

 

Obviously, there is no way that I can ever know if he physically cheated on me unless he chooses to confess. I get that. I hate the uncertainty, but I'll have to create my own closure there. But do you guys think those first three points add up to emotional infidelity? The thing is, those are just the things I know. I can't even imagine what else was done or said. I guess I want to be able to label this. Maybe I feel like if he cheated on me, this whole thing is less my fault. Maybe I'll feel better about actually moving on. I don't know. Labeling tends to make me feel more capable of compartmentalizing and making informed decisions.

[SapphireNoir10]

It is certainly emotional infidelity. 100%. I wouldn't be sure on the physical side as it seems he was obsessed with her but that doesn't necessarily mean they did physical stuff.

 

This may sound horrible but I'm glad you two have split up. He was NOT treating you how you deserve in anyway shape or form.

[OptomisticGirl]

It's emotional. 100%

[Fudgie]

He had an emotional affair, absolutely. And it can be just as damaging or even more damaging than a physical one. Physical ones are devastating in a different way but it's almost worst when the guy has feelings for someone, versus banging a random girl he doesn't give a damn about.

 

So yes I would call him unfaithful and nothing less.

 

I'm so glad you're moving on!

[Silverbirch]

Oh I'm not sure if he did or not, but I think he has just invented this fantasy woman in his mind and is in love with the fantasy.

[Fudgie]

Oh I'm not sure if he did or not, but I think he has just invented this fantasy woman in his mind and is in love with the fantasy.

 

If he's been in substantial contact with the ex, it's not just a fantasy.

[Stay_home]

From what I know about your situation from reading your journals over time, he didn't sound like the type who wanted to be married in the first place. I know about the issues he's had with compromising and I know he's caused some problems while you were both living together. So I think it's best that this situation comes to an end. From the info you've provided above, I think it's safe to say that your husband most likely has been unfaithful. I wouldn't bet against it: The comparisons, the love song, relocating far away... the writing is on the wall.

 

My best advice is to accept that the marriage is over and begin to start the process of rebuilding.

[Silverbirch]

If he's been in substantial contact with the ex, it's not just a fantasy.

 

What I meant to convey was that the description he has of the ex may well have been a distortion of what she was really like:

 

" He started comparing me to her. He literally said that she had set up standards that no one else could ever fulfill, and that they were standards he was making up-- she had literally been that great. He told me that he loved how she had always worn sexy underwear for him and dressed up for him. How great it was that she cooked for him and how he wished I could do that more. How she always wanted sex multiple times a day, and he knew no other woman could ever live up to that."

 

Even if she was really like that, he has described the perfect "Stepford Wife". I think it's shallow and gross.

[Firiel]

What I meant to convey was that the description he has of the ex may well have been a distortion of what she was really like:

 

" He started comparing me to her. He literally said that she had set up standards that no one else could ever fulfill, and that they were standards he was making up-- she had literally been that great. He told me that he loved how she had always worn sexy underwear for him and dressed up for him. How great it was that she cooked for him and how he wished I could do that more. How she always wanted sex multiple times a day, and he knew no other woman could ever live up to that."

 

Even if she was really like that, he has described the perfect "Stepford Wife". I think it's shallow and gross.

 

Yeah, I don't doubt that he is creating a fantasy surrounding her. What sucks is that to him, it's reality. I mean, if his past stories are to be believed, she cheated on him multiple times. Hardly the perfect woman. But it sucks that in his mind, she is better than me.

[Silverbirch]

But likely if he was married to her, there would be yet another woman who would be the "object" of his fantasies.

[DN]

This is the sort of thing that could be debated endlessly. Some people see any emotional contact as cheating, others only if there is actual sex. Some people will justify emotional cheating because they think something was missing from the relationship. These are all personal viewpoints and aren't really 'right' or 'wrong' in any meaningful sense. So I suppose what matters is how you view it.

 

Demonising someone rarely helps because it is rare that only one person bears all the responsibility for the demise of a relationship. I believe cheating is always wrong and there is no excuse for it, but the cheating doesn't erase other issues or issues that may have prompted or contributed to the cheating.

 

Whatever it was, at this point thinking about it is dwelling on the past in a way that can only be counter-productive. When a relationship fails, it is only useful to know what, if anything, you could have done better so you don't repeat any mistakes you may have made. What he did wrong or right is for him to deal with. There's nothing you can do about his behaviour or issues, only yours. Learn from the past but don't get mired in it, that won't serve you.

[lavenderdove]

The thing is you can never really know for sure, though you may over time find it out for sure.

 

I tend to try to use Occam's razor when evaluating things... as in what is the most likely possibility give the facts you have at the moment. I think if you had found any one of these single events it might be explained away in itself (i.e., the song could have been an old song that he organized into a new notebook, the comparisons to his ex could be him being a jerk when he's annoyed with you, the chest shaving could be triggered by a wild hair). But i think if you add all this up it starts to at least come down heavily on the fact that he doesn't appear to be over his ex at all at best, and at worst, he is WISHING he was still involved with her and/or was cheating with her.

 

But as DN says, the most obvious/relevant thing here is he told you he didn't want to be married anymore. That could be because he wants to start up wtih his ex or has already done so, or he just didn't want to be married because he doesn't like the responsibility or other reasons.

 

I do think this shows that he seems to have had one foot in the marriage and one foot out, because it is frankly hurtful of him to compare you to his ex and run her up while running you down. I think it was rude and insensitive of him, and you certainly are better not be married to someone who compares you negatively to an ex and still seems to be jonesing on his ex.

 

so time to be glad that you can heal and move on and find someone who really loves you rather than someone who was half in and half out.

[Firiel]

I know that labeling it will not actually change things. And I do know that I will never have an answer as to whether he did anything physical with his ex. But for so long-- for years, probably-- I had taken responsibility for everything in the relationship. If I were better, he'd want to spend more time with me. If I made more money, maybe we could afford to buy the things he wanted. Just so much of that. I know I have faults and flaws, but I'm so sick of dwelling on those 24/7. I'm finally in a place where no one is reminding me of my failures all the time. It would be so nice to finally be able to quiet his voice completely by saying, "No, he cheated on me and that is never okay. Though I wasn't perfect, I did my very best as a wife every day, and he made a decision to connect with his ex and look elsewhere emotionally. I am not responsible for that decision."

 

I guess I still don't feel like I have the authority to say anything about our relationship that he would disagree with. Like he still gets to call the shots and construct the reality of our relationship unless I can give his behavior a definitive definition.

[SpottiOtti]

I guess I still don't feel like I have the authority to say anything about our relationship that he would disagree with.

 

Though I have never been married, I have been in a couple LTRs and I get what you're saying here. I think it's normal because you're still thinking of "we" and not "me". That will take time. You'll get there.

 

Though I wasn't perfect, I did my very best as a wife every day, and he made a decision to connect with his ex and look elsewhere emotionally. I am not responsible for that decision."

 

Can you give yourself permission to truly own this statement? I cut out the "he cheated on me" part since we don't know if it's true (at least not physically). But the rest is, for sure.

 

Also, if emotional cheating is in the eyes of the beholder, then you get to decide whether you consider his behavior emotional cheating. And you can use that decision, made on your own as "me" and for only your peace of mind and satisfaction, to inform future relationship choices. That's empowering! So what do YOU believe it to be? Did he cheat emotionally?

 

I'm sorry that you're going through this and I hope you are beginning to heal.

[astfar]

While I went though all this with tremendous interest, I seem to be too new to this forum to really comprehend what you are debating. I think I learned bits and pieces from other threads as well (thank you, lavenderdove) but if one is really brave to apply Occam's razor, why don't you go full steps and refer to the evolutionary psychology (for example as explained in David M. Buss's THE EVOLUTION OF DESIRE) so that all these in the light of it most of the problems mentioned here actually disappear - once you understand we are animals with highly charged mating behaviors and just try to rationalize them if not fit into social constructs, such artificial as morality and ethics, there is nothing really to talk about. Fromt eh psychological perspective, an interesting question remains: is copulating qualified as such only when imagined, or also enacted physically through genitals, in each case the brain actually is not aware of the difference. What do you think?

[ParisPaulette]

It definitely sounds like emotional infidelity to the say the least. I'm sorry you're going through this, but on the bright side it's good he gets out of your life to make way for someone who will hold you up as the first and most important woman in their life. Good luck and stay strong.

[Firiel]

Also, if emotional cheating is in the eyes of the beholder, then you get to decide whether you consider his behavior emotional cheating. And you can use that decision, made on your own as "me" and for only your peace of mind and satisfaction, to inform future relationship choices. That's empowering! So what do YOU believe it to be? Did he cheat emotionally?

 

You know, I do believe he did. I probably wouldn't call it an emotional affair. That implies a level of longevity that I'm not sure he reached, though he's been dishonest enough about things that I just can't know. But I had told him (just randomly in the past) because of his history with this girl that she was his only ex that I would feel uncomfortable with if he resumed contact. And we had a semi-spoken rule (as in, it had been specifically set up very early in our relationship, and we, or at least I, still adhered to it, though it hadn't been discussed in awhile) to mention anything that might be questionable to each other in regards to opposite-sex relationships. If there was ever anything that I thought may concern him about my relationships with men, I told him. And he did the same for awhile. But he didn't tell me about this burgeoning relationship with his ex, which says to me that he knew it was wrong. And the moment he started to feel any feelings for her, he should have cut contact. The moment she said anything questionable (let alone confessing her love for him!), he should have cut contact. And he didn't. He made a very specific choice to continue in that relationship without telling me and even actively tried to deceive me about it. The fact that he was writing her love songs reveals that he did have feelings for her that were above and beyond friendly. It's not as extreme as a full-blown affair, perhaps, but I would classify it as an incident of emotional infidelity. I guess a comparison might be how a make-out session isn't as extreme as having sex with someone, but it's still physically cheating.

 

But I still don't feel like I can make this decision, for some reason. Like because I'm the one saying it, it's invalid.

[pl3asehelp]

Was he in contact with that ex before you got married? If so I don't think you guys ever even had a chance. He simply wasn't ever committed to begin with. I'd stay away from guys with relationships with an ex in the future - they're not ready for a real commitment.

[Firiel]

Was he in contact with that ex before you got married? If so I don't think you guys ever even had a chance. He simply wasn't ever committed to begin with. I'd stay away from guys with relationships with an ex in the future - they're not ready for a real commitment.

 

No, he wasn't. He said he didn't have any desire to remain in contact with her after the way she'd treated him. I still can't figure out what changed his mind.

[pl3asehelp]

No, he wasn't. He said he didn't have any desire to remain in contact with her after the way she'd treated him. I still can't figure out what changed his mind.

 

Have you asked him about this recently? I wonder if he was lying when he told you that. Since he's partially come clean now maybe there is more to tell.

[agent1607307371]

Whether he had an affair or not, he has definitely not been behaving in manner consistent with fidelity.

[Mercurial Girl]

At the very least, it's a gross betrayal of your trust and undermines your marriage.

 

I'm sorry you're going through this.

[HeatherB]

He stopped loving you. That's awful enough. If he chose to give away what used to be yours, he was free to make that decision or mistake.

 

But he took his love away from you a while ago. You have been trying to prop up a relationship with someone who has been withholding from you the most important gift between two people, and one that was yours by right in the relationship. You have every reason to be angry.

[annie24]

Whether he had an affair or not, he has definitely not been behaving in manner consistent with fidelity.

 

Yeah that's my take on it too. Certainly not "good husband behavior." Well, his wanting a divorce is another sign of bad husband behavior.

 

I don't know if he ever actually physically cheated and you might never know either. But it is irrelevant now. Just time to move forward....

[SpottiOtti]

At the beginning of this thread, Firiel, you said that it might help you to definitively categorize his behavior as "cheating" or "not cheating". Although it sounds like you are still coming to terms with feeling okay calling the shots on your own, (which, I say, is totally normal and understandable), did it help at all for you to categorize the behavior as emotional cheating?

 

I'm sorry that you're going through this too. I've read posts you've made in the past, and have thought that you seem like a solid chick with a good head on her shoulders. That makes me think you'll come through this having learned something and being a better person for it, too.