Why do you want children??

[ProtestTheHero]

Why do you think you guys aren't close?

 

it's always easy to talk about 'what if' and it's def different LIVING it but most parents go into it with the best of intentions.

 

My mom loved taking care of me when I couldn't take care of myself. Infancy, toddler stage, elementary school, and even up to middle school it was ok. Once I developed my own personality and arrived at my own conclusions about a variety of issues that are VERY important to her (and we didn't agree), it just became something different. We have nothing in common. I have a great relationship with my dad, but my mom is just sort of "there."

[OptomisticGirl]

My mom loved taking care of me when I couldn't take care of myself. Infancy, toddler stage, elementary school, and even up to middle school it was ok. Once I developed my own personality and arrived at my own conclusions about a variety of issues that are VERY important to her (and we didn't agree), it just became something different. We have nothing in common. I have a great relationship with my dad, but my mom is just sort of "there."

 

I think that happens A LOT though. anyone would be lying if they said they didn't want their kids to hold the same value as they do (I admit it myself!) but it's a very fine line to walk between being a parent and realizing your child has opinions and thoughts of their own. I believe in one way of looking at the world and although I hope my kids take that view, that view also lets me know that they and I can co exist as long as they are open to differences in the view.

[tiredofvampires]

It just is odd for me to see people talk about relationships they'll have with their kids when it's really hard to know that sort of thing. My mom's life goal was to be a mother, and she has never beaten me, abused me, or deprived me of anything -- but we are not close. At all.

 

That's true -- that's the chance you're taking. I was just talking to my sister today about how she's starting to feel that her son prefers his daddy, the way they've bonded. She verbalized the worry that he may never feel as close to her as Dad, as he grows older. And we acknowledged that that could happen (but at 3.5 years old, it's waaaaaaaaaaaay too early to say). I told her that I've yet to meet ANY person who feels EQUALLY close to both parents. I've never seen that. Now that they're trying for another, she said perhaps she could hope that the next child might feel closer to her -- but we both soberly acknowledged that that's a pretty precarious and unsound position to take.

 

I think wanting it that badly and then feeling like my child isn't close to me at all, after all is said and done, would kind of be my worst nightmare, though.

 

I do think though that things like that don't just "happen." Sure, relationships of any kind are filled with wild cards. But I think this is part of the problem:

 

My mom loved taking care of me when I couldn't take care of myself. Infancy, toddler stage, elementary school, and even up to middle school it was ok. Once I developed my own personality and arrived at my own conclusions about a variety of issues that are VERY important to her (and we didn't agree), it just became something different. We have nothing in common. I have a great relationship with my dad, but my mom is just sort of "there."

 

I think it's important to be fluid and receptive to who your child is becoming, to keep that bond alive. Ditto on what happened there, with my dad. Only it started much sooner than middle school, and it was dealt with pretty brutally. So I think parents who have their own agenda about how their kids should turn out (as in, in the specifics -- not talking about basic things, like not being an axe murderer, lol), what they should like, what their conclusions and personal views should be have driven a wedge in where one didn't have to be. And it's unfortunate. I feel like it cuts off the lines of communication and estranges.

 

I suppose though that if you regard a child as its own person, it makes sense that at some point they may not have much in common with you. I just think that part of that distance has to do with how rigid you are in what your expectations as a parent have been.

[lostnscared]

I'm the one who said I don't believe in morning sickness or other pregnancy symptoms. I'm 30 weeks pregnant, and I HAD morning sickness but now realize that while hormones did have somewhat of a role, it was also other things--including fear. I'm not saying that "fear" is the cause of morning sickness, there are many factors, just that I don't really believe that many pregnancy symptoms that exist are more than that of the mind(thought) and feelings(emotions)--even for a woman who wanted children and wasn't afraid. I know my beliefs about the subject are unpopular, but I put that out there really because I know many people are afraid of the uncertainty of pregnancy, or they are afraid of labor pain, etc. I was. I remember when I first found out I was pregnant back in January, I freaked the fOck out. I created a thread, and said how scared I was, and how afraid I was of labor, of the pregnancy itself, etc. Pregnancy was NOWHERE near what I thought it would be once I realized that the symptoms I experienced were of my own creation--they went away just like that. And the pregnancy became very easy. I'm 30 weeks, only gained 9 pounds, no stretch marks, incredible energy(I can run a mile if I want), cheery mood, and I sleep very well each night. SO many people tried to define my pregnancy for me--tell me it would be a certain way because it was that way for them, OR try to scare me with horror stories about their pregnancies, or the dangers, etc. Pregnancy is not an illness, or a disease. It is a natural process of life, a condition--which millions of women have been doing for YEARS. Most woman could probably birth a baby on their own, and move on about their day(if they wanted to). Matter of fact that is how some women used to do it. It's once society starting telling us pregnancy was dangerous(which it can be--but why it is I don't agree with) that it's limiting, that you can't do this or that--and then you have doctors and other "experts" telling you negative things, and friends and other women telling your horrible things, it gets passed down and then you become frightened or experience many of the things people told you, you would experience. Same goes for labor/childbirth. Again this is all my opinion on that matter--but I know many woman in my support group with the (and these are women who've had kids, or are pregnant) that agree.

Fears of the unknown and what can go wrong, etc ARE normal, just as completely allowing the process of life(pregnancy) and trusting that it will go right is scary. But in some ways I almost wonder if worrying about what can go wrong, and it being dangerous, and all the negative sides of it can in a way end up CREATING the very sort of pregnancy you're afraid of. I remember the week before I got morning sickness, thinking to myself, "Oh my god I HOPE I don't get morning sickness", etc, and then talking about nonstop with my boyfriend. I even read articles on it(at that point I still believed in listening to people, doctors, etc). Well guess what? The next week my morning sickness began. It's kind of ironic lol.

Anyway, I just think, that while it's normal to be afraid, and even to fear the unknown, that sometime it's better to realize that it's a natural process, that it isn't a disease, or condition and for most women is not dangerous, and going with the flow is much better than focusing on "what if I die', or "what if I vomit". I just focus on what I WANT the outcome to me, and in my experience in many aspects of my life the outcome that I focus on is what I get.

Also to me pregnancy is not very dangerous--I know that many experts and people say that, but it just isn't. It's so natural to me. I don't know, maybe I'm weird. I know other things that are much more dangerous though--so maybe that's why I don't understand that thinking. For instance I've never thought about dying in labor, or anything like that. It just seems really absurd and morbid to think in that direction... And none of the friends I've had that have been pregnant have had those thoughts either. Matter of fact most of us walk around like it's the most normal thing possible, and like it isn't a big deal. Because honestly it really hasn't been. I'm not saying your fears are unfounded--just that it really isn't as horrible as people make it out to be.

In terms of you not having children--I'm sorry. I know that age is very sensitive in the issue. Especially once you get past 40. Would you consider adoption or fostering?

Sorry if you've already mentioned that beforehand(I haven't followed with the other posts).

[OptomisticGirl]

someitmes though you HAVE to focus on the 'what ifs' during pregnancy. What if soemthing happens and it comes down between your life or your childs - would your boyfriend know what you would want if you have never discussed 'what if'? that's the essential reason L and I have discussed 'what if' scenarios. Yes they are fears I have that could happen and have happened to women before (even before modern medcine) and because of our talks I know at the end of the day, he's going to chose to me over the baby every time because 'we can have more children, there is only one me in the world'. Whcih completely goes against my basic instinct to protect my child and put my own life at risk to save it but I also trust him to make whatever decision he makes - even if it's against what I would have wanted.

[90_hour_sleep]

I'm a very sentimental person, and I keep almost everyting someone has given me - I have a box of nothing but letters from girlfriends in high school and tid bits. My mom is the same way so I know a lot of my stuff she kept - my first blanket, my first swimsuit, my baby rattler. So I guess for me the sentimental stuff is important rather than all the material stuff.

 

that explains how you came to think that way...

 

but do you ever wonder about the attachment to such things? and...because my tone here may not be clearl...this is strictly curiosity. i'd like to hear your perspective on that (if you have one that is!). not suggesting that you're flawed because of your beliefs. i have alot of interest in the nature of desire. that's all.

[Batya33]

Strangely enough I went into parenthood without the expectation that my child would love me back but with the expectation that I would do everything in my power to be a good mother to my child and to foster, develop, maintain our bond. Of course I would be heartbroken if my child ends up saying he has nothing in common with me and doesn't feel close to me but I don't expect closeness just because I think I'm a good mother now and have what it takes to be a good mother going forward.

 

I agree with TOV that the notion that morning sickness and other complications of pregnancy are "mind over matter" and not hormonal/pregnancy related is of great concern to me as a formerly pregnant person and concerning in how it undermines and devalues what women go through - reminds me of my dear friend who had a brain tumor and was told by her doctor again and again that her symptoms reflected that she was a bored housewife -that whole, archaic "hysterical woman" kind of thing. It's not exactly analogous but it certainly reinforces the outdated ideas that women's discomforts were all in their head.

 

I agree that men in general have a different decisionmaking process about whether to have biological children because of the lack of the "clock" issue. I envied men that freedom to decide when I was in my 30s and dating. I do know men who badly want children though so for them there's at least an emotional clock!

[OptomisticGirl]

that explains how you came to think that way...

 

but do you ever wonder about the attachment to such things? and...because my tone here may not be clearl...this is strictly curiosity. i'd like to hear your perspective on that (if you have one that is!). not suggesting that you're flawed because of your beliefs. i have alot of interest in the nature of desire. that's all.

 

wonder how?

 

Now things with certain people I no longer am attached to may get thrown out - ie my ex. When L and I got together all the stuff my ex had given me went out the window - pictures were shredded, basic training letters were shredded, stuffed animals were given to my niece or chairty - those things no longer held sentimental value to me because my feelings with that person were no longer there. things passed from parent to child - and therefore child to their child - always retain that sentimentality in a way. My kids can chose to throw my baby blanket away (which will be their's as well) but once I pass it to them it's their decision.

[lostnscared]

That wouldn't happen though IMO unless I was focused on that happening(that's my feelings on the subject). It's so rare that it would happen that I honestly don't feel like it warrants a conversation. Like I said I just focus on the outcome that I WANT to happen, and keep my thoughts directed in that line. If something happens along the way, typically it's something that was supposed to happen anyway--for me it's about going with the flow of things and living, rather than resisting, overanalyzing and worrying. To me it's morbid and negative to talk about what we would do if that happened, because I know it won't. I have an abundance of faith in both the process of pregnancy and childbirth, myself, God(sorry if this offends anyone) the universe, and nature. I know everything will be okay. And I trust it. If something were to happen to me, my boyfriend would make the decision that is best to him and most likely the decision he would make would probably be the best one. I believe the universe works that way--that certain things happen for a reason, and there is already a "knowing" as to which decision will be made.

But nah I won't talk about that with the bf. We both feel as if labor/childbirth is a normal process and for the most part isn't dangerous for most women(though it is for some).

[lostnscared]

My comments aren't devaluing what woman have gone through during pregnancy--or at least they aren't intentional. I went through morning sickness and other pregnancy symptoms myself, so I certainly sympathize. My only point is that many of these conditions in MY opinion are not just effects of hormones and that is what I believe. That is not to say that woman are purposely creating horrible pregnancies, or that they necessarily WANT to experience it or that their experiences are false. My point is just that pregnancy doesn't have to be horrible for every woman, and in fact for a lot of women pregnancy isn't.

[OptomisticGirl]

I believe childbirth is a normal process as well but I don't think it's morbid to discuss what could happen - to be honest as a fellow control freak, I'm kind of surprised you don't want to. As someone who wants to be in control of everything I want to go through all the 'what ifs' and 'what could happen' because I feel it better prepares you - if you don't think things can go wrong, and then they do, it's a natural response to freak because you only focus on the positive and haven't prepared yourself for at least the 'this may happen'.

[lostnscared]

I believe childbirth is a normal process as well but I don't think it's morbid to discuss what could happen - to be honest as a fellow control freak, I'm kind of surprised you don't want to. As someone who wants to be in control of everything I want to go through all the 'what ifs' and 'what could happen' because I feel it better prepares you - if you don't think things can go wrong, and then they do, it's a natural response to freak because you only focus on the positive and haven't prepared yourself for at least the 'this may happen'.

 

I don't know, to be honest me dying in childbirth NEVER has crossed my mind until your post(thanks OG, lol). I just didn't think about it. I don't know anyone who has. To me thinking things can go wrong can lead to them going wrong. And I've had obstacles(I mean who doesn't) but I think what helps/stops me from freaking out is realizing that I need to just go with the flow and accept what has happened whether than freak out, get frustrated, get scared, etc. I just don't like worrying so much, or thinking about negative "what-if's"--that just puts a damper on things to me. Of course like anyone, I'll have negative thoughts, or doubts. For instance this morning I did have a slight freak out about labor, but said some affirmations, mediated and relaxed soon after. I guess I just don't like to worry about things that I either don't have control over, or that are in my control and that don't have to happen.

[OptomisticGirl]

I guess for me it's more of a 'real' thing because all 3 pregnacies that I have been close to something happened. Make that 4. My cousin's 2nd child when he was being developed during pregnancy, his intestines were developed on the outside (long word for it, can't remember) and he died at 11 months old. My niece was born a month early because of preclampsia (after a PERFECT 7 months of pregnancy) and my nephew was born 2 months early because the placenta starting to tear and an old friend's baby's shoulder got dislocated when they were delivering him. I'm a very optimistic (duh, lol) person but I guess I also see the benefit of preparing for the worse. Do we not do it with everything else in life? Do we not make wills and at least let those who love us know how we want to be cared for after we are dead (ie cremation or burial) ? Do we not write organ donor or not on our driver's license (that in itself causes you to think ahead to your own death and what if)? Or who you want to have what of your wordly possesions? Maybe I just don't want to leave this world unprepared and the same goes for my birthing plan - I want L to know in that moment what my wishes are, know what his is, and know how he will react. I know aside from me being brain dead while pregnant and on oxygen or whatever, he's going to chose my life over our babies. And because we have had that talk (and argument to a degree, lol because things got heated) I feel much safer and more knowledgebale going into pregnancy that we have every bases covered.

[lostnscared]

I don't know any deliveries that turned out bad, or life threatening like that, nor do I know anyone in my family like that either. Honestly it just seems rare, from my subjective experiences--as I have one aunt that had preclampsia, but I know no one else that has(my friend has four kids, another friend has 3, another has 2, I have sister in law, and many cousins and people within my bf's family that has kids--his grandma had 9 kids and all of them had at least 5 or 6--out of all of these only a FEW were complicated). Even still, when I hear about stories like that, it just doesn't propel me to think about what would happen if I ended up in that situation, because I truly don't think I will so I don't want to focus my thoughts in that direction. I have a knowing that everything will be okay and will go smoothly. And that is what I trust. And as I said I have a ton of faith in both myself, the babies, God, and so on. If somethings happens, then it happens and we'll deal it with accordingly, but see no point in worrying about something to which as your pointing out was unpredictable and had no control over. Besides you know my opinions on illnesses, and things like that, so that's another reason why I don't think like that.

I don't have a will, or talk about my burial or anything like that(I'm 24 LOL!!!!!!). I understand being prepared, I just think that there is a difference between preparing yourself for something negative or a worse-case scenario versus preparing yourself for a positive outcome. I'm doing the latter LOL.

[OptomisticGirl]

I guess I just see no difference in it - to me preparing for the worse (on anything) must be done as you prepare for the good. Take Feb for me and L. Before that there was instances were we thought our plans were going to be interrupted (right before we were due to meet in NY that damn Iceland volcano erupted) and before he came over in October last year Heathrow went on strike - and when our plans had to be cancelled in Feb I completely was not prepared for it because, well, I never prepared for it! But now I know TO prepare for it- I'm planning our wedding and booking honeymoon hotels and doing the finishing DIY stuff but on the other hand we are also preparing to not let what happened last time happen - he's staying the day before his flight on the airport and literally just has to walk to his terminal from his hotel room, short of getting run over by a luggage rack, he will at least make it to the plane. The plane I have no control over and I concede that. I look at pregnancy the same. Leading up to the pregnancy I can prepare (ie, take precautions like staying in the hotel the night before) but the actual pregnancy (the plane) what happens, happen. I can only control what I can control and what the universe decides to let me control.

 

I have a will and what I want to go to what and L knows what I want done with my ashes after I'm cremated but I view death as a part of life, it's the one thing we know will happen after we are born. No escaping it. It doesn't make me live life less, it actually pushes me to live it fuller because I know and accept it will end. When and were I don't know - hit by a train, dying in childbirth - but I want to die knowing I took care of everything beforehand.

[lostnscared]

Understandable. I just focus on what I WANT to happen and try to put all my positive energy, emotions and thoughts on that "want" to ensure that it happens. I don't focus on what I don't want to happen. As you know I do believe that people can have control over their pregnancies. But I know you disagree with that lol. Yeah I don't have a will, I suppose I'll make one, one day. To me doing all that preparing for a "what if" situation means that in one way or another you believe that situation can and MIGHT happen to you. I see no point in preparing for something if I don't believe it will happen. Obstacles and uncertainty are a natural part of life to me--trying to prevent them from happening can drive someone crazy. Instead focusing on what you want to happen, but accepting things as they come and going with the flow as they come is just better for me. Believe me I am still somewhat of a control freak, but find that life is easier for me now that I just have a go with the flow nonchalant attitude about things. I like being laid back as opposed to worrying about everything.

[OptomisticGirl]

Do you think you will do more hard thinking about 'what if' - especially with wills and such - after you have the babies? I can understand were me, a none married and none parent 23 year old could be frowned upon with having a will but I think if you have kids - of any age, from 16 to 44 - you owe it to the kids to have those orders in place. The one part of your post that confuses me is what I bolded - everyone dies though, be it 5 seconds from now or 50 years.

 

See for me I wen the opposite - after Feb I became super relaxed about things just coming up (which is why when L had to move this month we were prepared for it in April and had already shifted money around) and rolling with the punches, I just take the approach of being as prepared as you can. I still desire a happy outcome and a happy pregnancy and birth, and believe I can have that but I'm also prepared for if I don't.

[lostnscared]

I don't think I will think about "what-if" negative scenarios honestly. I don't want to start thinking that negative things will happen to my children, or anything. I will def. get life insurance and a will, because the only thing that I know for sure will happen is that I WILL die eventually that is one thing that I have no control over. I wasn't talking about death with the part you bolded, I was talking about labor and pregnancy--I won't prepare myself for a negative outcome for pregnancy or labor because by preparing myself for the "worse" I am in sense thinking that it can or might happen to me and remember I am only focused on what I WANT to happen. I don't WANT to have a bad experience in labor or with this pregnancy so I'm not preparing myself for it.

 

Believe me I know about wanting to be prepared(I did set up a nursery that won't be used for three months didn't I lol???!!!), but to me I only prepare for what I want. Like for instance as you know I've been preparing for a quick painless labor. I've been preparing to gain no more than 25 pounds during labor, to not get stretch marks, and so on. These things I am working on--because these are the outcomes I want. But preparing for death during labor, or for pain, or for preclampsia or other things--well they aren't what I want, so I'm not preparing for them.

[OptomisticGirl]

Yes but to do a will and life insurance, you have to think of the what if. Like I know for me - and I don't think this is something L and I have touched on yet - but if we go before our kids are 18 (which would be the what if) they won't have access to whatever part of our life insurance they get. Someone (I doubt a relative tbh) will make sure they have money to live on but until they are at least 18, they can't touch it without very good reason. I have been a teenager, I know how they are with money! I would rather be around for my kids during that time but I'm prepared for if I'm not.

[lostnscared]

Yes but to do a will and life insurance, you have to think of the what if. Like I know for me - and I don't think this is something L and I have touched on yet - but if we go before our kids are 18 (which would be the what if) they won't have access to whatever part of our life insurance they get. Someone (I doubt a relative tbh) will make sure they have money to live on but until they are at least 18, they can't touch it without very good reason. I have been a teenager, I know how they are with money! I would rather be around for my kids during that time but I'm prepared for if I'm not.

 

Honestly I just haven't thought about a will and life insurance too much, lol. I just don't think about it. The last time I thought about death and about how it would effect those I love, was when i was severely depressed and attempted suicide at 16. Maybe it makes me irresponsible but I just haven't put much thought into what I would include in a will or anything like that, or about how much life insurance I would need, etc.

[OptomisticGirl]

I don't think it makes you irresponsible - but it's not something that will hurt to think about, you know? You admit the one thing you can't control (what none of us can) is that we will die. And when you have kids it kind of changes the ballpark, it's not just about what you want but how they will be effected if you go before they are grown. I learned that parent-child thing a few months ago. I had never set down and talked with my mom about what I wanted - had it spelled out in my will but never told her - and she freaked a little when I Told her I wanted to be cremated (she's very traditional body in ground type person) and made the comment she wanted them to wait until she got there so she could see me one last time. Then I had to make her understand I"m an organ donor, they can't just 'wait' for her to get here - since she wouldn't fly, she would take a boat - and that I don't WANT people seeing me like that. It's why I hate wakes. But if I had never told her that, she would have jsut stuck me in the ground pretty as you please!

[civilservant]

Pregnancy and childbirth are obviously the most serious physical things you can do as a women, and no amount of 'hoping for the best' is going to stop something bad potentially happening. I think it's only right and proper that a conversation about wishes should be had, especially where someone would become your medical proxy.

 

I wouldn't want to be dumped into that situation with no idea what OG wanted, because it can and does happen. Now that's not to say I would respect her wishes without question, but I do at least know her wishes and be able to weigh them against what the Drs are telling me.

[90_hour_sleep]

^^

 

careful civil. you're entering a testosterone-free zone. watch your step.

[OptomisticGirl]

Pregnancy and childbirth are obviously the most serious physical things you can do as a women, and no amount of 'hoping for the best' is going to stop something bad potentially happening. I think it's only right and proper that a conversation about wishes should be had, especially where someone would become your medical proxy.

 

I wouldn't want to be dumped into that situation with no idea what OG wanted, because it can and does happen. Now that's not to say I would respect her wishes without question, but I do at least know her wishes and be able to weigh them against what the Drs are telling me.

 

Because for me my wish is always going to be for him to chose the outcome that protects the child - and for him being a rational thinking person and someone who doesn't react emotionally first, I actually am comforted with knowing he will have a level head in that situation and while I May not agree at first with his decision, I know he would do what's in the best interest for me.

[tiredofvampires]

@ Lostnscared:

 

The only thing I was responding to was your claim that you felt fear was the cause of your morning sickness, and that this and other symptoms associated with pregnancy were a "mind over matter" issue. I don't question that this was YOUR reality. I don't doubt that fear plays into many, many physical symptoms in general (actually, all emotions affect our physical beings). And I can attest to that in my own life. But nothing is as simple as "it's just up to your will and the power of your mind" or "it's just a chemical reaction you have no control over." Every single case is a combination of these factors and in different combinations, every body has different risk factors, genetic makeups, etc....so it's an oversimplification to say that in general, mastering your pregnancy symptoms is a matter of positive thinking and getting rid of fear.

 

I also wasn't implying or saying that pregnancy was a "disease", or a health condition, or unnatural or dangerous. I don't think pregnancy is a "dangerous" situation, per se. There are healthy pregnancies and dangerous pregnancies, or dangerous things that arise in a pregnancy. But pregnancy itself is certainly something I see as just a natural part of life, and I have wanted it in part for all the ways it'd make me feel good in my body (I would hope).

 

You have said in this thread that while you don't fear pregnancy and labor and are preparing yourself for the best possible outcome, you've also said that you have significant fear about parenting itself. So if fear translates into bodily symptoms while pregnant, it would seem you'd still be having some troubling physical issues with your pregnancy, but you claim that you're feeling fabulous. So clearly, you can be afraid and just be very lucky anyway.

 

Likewise, someone can have the best attitude ever and get unlucky.

 

The reason I'm making these points is because, just like you, I've had others try to preach to me about how my body will behave and why, or how I should be thinking about my body, and in the end, it feels like others judging what only I can judge. So you know first-hand this is an unpleasant kind of dynamic. I just don't agree with anyone telling anyone else, "If you'd just do _____ or think ______, you'd get _______ results, like me." I take it you had some problems with this as well.

 

I think when it comes to preparing for the future, the best course of action is planning for contingencies realistically, but without anxiety and fear. I believe that what we think is very powerful, in creating outcomes -- but there is also randomness in the universe (that's my belief, based on science, anyway), and one must prepare for the random. To avoid that in my view can be another -- less overt -- expression of fear.

 

As for adoption and fostering, yes, I have considered both. But I'm firm on wanting a partner if I take either of those on. I'd also have to improve somewhat in what my health is right now, I think, for either. So my future is unwrit.