Why do you want children??

[90_hour_sleep]

With over-controlling parents I think it all stems from the fear of losing control which is a very primal fear.

 

elcie, that's a great point. and it's even greater to be reminded of it in this context. such a deeply rooted reactive behaviour. one could argue that it goes far beyond any sort of developmental pattern...and perhaps can be attributed a kind of core program which all of humankind has been hardwired with. or perhaps it's somewhat of an 'evolutionary' thing (but no desire to get into that debate). loss of control is perhaps one of the most recognizable forms of threat.

 

it's a great explanation.

 

When children are very young, it is your role as a parent to make many decisions for them. You are able to keep them safe, fed, clothed, educated and, most importantly, loved.

 

fine list. i think 'loved' covers a broad spectrum of other things in this instance. if i felt obligated to add anything to your list...it would be this: a firm recogntion of value in a child...of worth. a committment to embrace authenticity...and to reinforce in a child that he/she is enough (it sounds simple, i know). with such an overwhelming percentage of the population struggling with issues of self-worth in the world today...i'm of the firm belief that much of it comes as a result of early shame. toxic shame. constant reinforcement that a child is not good enough. and it's seldom a conscious thing (and often it's behaviour which a parent has learned from his own childhood). it could be as simple as referring to a child as his actions. as in...a bad action correlates to a bad child....and constant verbal feeback to that effect. there's such a huge distinction though. and children, being the perceptive beings that they are (very susceptible to energies and moods, and the subtle implications of verbalized tones, body language, facial expressions, vocal inflection. VERY perceptive) absorb this. they start to perceive themselves as 'bad'...without drawing the distinction.

 

okay...bit of a tangent there. but i think it ties in with what you're saying. saw a great talk on this on TED last winter. might as well link it here.

 

link removed

 

especially enjoy her statements on children. and i think she says it so much better than i ever could. relates to just what you've stated here, elcie:

 

As they get older and become independent it's hard to feel that control slip through your fingers. It's an almost irresistible impulse to tell them, "No, don't do it that way, do it this way..."

 

I keep telling myself that they have to make mistakes to learn but it's hard not to interfere. I'm still a work in progress but my aim is to be a parent who is there if help or advice is needed but has learned to perceive her children as independent adults with their own lives to live.

 

Some parents are unable to make that transition and are unable to 'let go'

 

and of course...there isn't a person on this forum who cannot identify with that struggle. could be the modern epidemic.

[thejigsup]

I NEVER wanted children! I absolutely loathed children and called them "creatures". I did not want to lose my freedom, be responsible for how someone else turned out, have a "mooch" on my hands for 18 years or more, and I wanted to be considered sexy, not a "mom".

 

I didn't have a child until I was into my 30s, an accidental pregnancy, and it was then that I realized how ignorant, selfish, and just plain stupid, I had been. My son is my life. Anything you give to your children you give eagerly and with love (I did not know this). Children give you so much more than you could ever give them! I now work exclusively with children and have a Master's degree in working with children as a counselor. I am taking post-grad classes to attain certification to deal psychologically with children.

 

I do understand why people do not want children and I would never look down on anyone who does not want them. But they will never know the fulfillment and joy they have missed.

[90_hour_sleep]

hey jigs,

 

kind of glossing over a few other posts here...but can't help but say a few words here. mostly...your first paragraph brought out some good laughs. love your candor there. even though i don't identify with any of the particulars so much.

 

and...now...i find myself smiling at your second paragraph...and having a bit of a reflection on the nature of impermanence. in this case...your own self-proclaimed ignorance...and how insubstantial it became in the wake of something so much bigger. kind of neat really. a true testament to the uncertainty of life. and look at the new direction your life has taken as a result? i mean...so much of that can be traced back to one, seemingly innocuous event in your life!!

 

i have one question for you...if you feel inclined. do you suppose having your son provided a sense of purpose where there hadn't really been one? maybe you already had a feeling of purpose. if that was the case...did it change? you speak so much about the nature of giving. and i can't help but think that that is a huge contributing factor to your feelings here. i recognize that you feel you recieved so much more than you gave...but that was never the motivation for your giving, was it? but perhaps that's the beauty of this. this is a unique relationship (parent)...one that has the potential to free a person from self-absorption. finally an outlet where one can give, without the expectation of reciprocation...of actually getting anything in return...aside from the pure joy of having such an experience. i think people long for this feeling...without ever knowing what it is. you know? does that make any sense?

 

anyway. enjoyed your post. thanks for sharing.

[Batya33]

I know you directed your question at Jig but I can relate to how she feels as a mother. I had lots of purposes, dreams and accomplishments in my life before I had children -I fulfilled my dream as far as my career, I gave back to my community with volunteer work over many years (some by working with children, other times using my job-related skills), I had and have close friendships and relationships -but I always knew (it felt like always) that I wanted to raise a child of my own within a healthy marriage. I suspect that if I focused on having a child as my only purpose in life then I wouldn't be a good parent even from the beginning because the expectations would be unrealistic.

 

As far as self-absorption it is one of the first times where I regularly have to check if I have left the house - fully dressed, hair brushed, dressed in non-pajamas, wearing sunscreen -- I rarely if ever have to check if my son is all ready to go out (and that is much more involved of course with the diaper, toys, food, etc). I wasn't self-absorbed before but I'm not used to having to remind myself about basic grooming/hygiene stuff.

I think if a person is self-absorbed to begin with the whole process of pregnancy/childbirth will be much harder -not "undoable" -people change -have epiphanies - but all else equal it's not going to be a magic wand or a car wash just because you've conceived or give birth to a child (or adopt).

[itsallgrand]

I think adoption is a great thing - I'm assuming you were talking about adopting vs. Biological, I could be wring, lol - and if we can't have kids if our own through other methods we will adopt. I suppose it is selfish for us to want our own kids when there are kids out there already who need a home but anyone who wants kids is being selfish on some level. It's a biological drive to want to out your own DNA out there - natural selection and all - and for a good many people they would rather try to have their own then adopt.

 

It's not a perfect world, by far. I don't think it's my right to have kids, per say, but it's more of a biological need to want my own DNA out there, or, to try to.

 

Well I only wanted to clarify. That I do not feel or believe that adoptive parents are somehow "better" than biological parenting, or that it is a matter of that. I think any parent who parents - with as much integrity, caring, and knowledge that they can muster and with basic good intentions - should be applauded.

 

My main point was that the question of why someone wants children, to me, is always going to come down to the basic same things. I want to. I have an instinct to. I feel it is my higher purpose, or that it is something I must do.

 

I am not saying that is wrong. On the contrary, I recognize it as natural. And healthy, in its own right. That isn't the problem.

 

My personal conflict (and strong emotion on this issue) comes from the other elements that go into bringing children into the world, the darker side of it. Those who do not necessarily have the best intentions or put thoughts, effort, work into their children. OR not considering other elements of need and the world at large when they make that decision. Or they are making the decision for themselves solely, and not considering , really, their future or present child.

 

So yes I know the world is not perfect and it never will be. And yes I know we are naturally driven to want children (humans animals in general) and that is normal. There are other needs and wants that are natural too.

 

I fully recognize my part in this (of there being an issue with me as well and my experiences colouring things and how loaded it has become to me).

 

I have a lot of respect for a lot of the parents here on ENA who I have had the pleasure of reading so much of their thoughts and approaching on parenting, and seen so many thoughtful and genuine responses on the topic. It literally warms my heart to see it, it is so encouraging. And one day, I hope to be on the level with that without having a lot of the neg emotions I do have tipping my scale .

 

Sorry not trying to hijack at all! just wanted to clarify, and I was also concerned that I might have offended anyone here who deserve nothing but respect. So I hope not. I take responsibility for my bias here.

[90_hour_sleep]

link removed

[Batya33]

Well I only wanted to clarify. That I do not feel or believe that adoptive parents are somehow "better" than biological parenting, or that it is a matter of that. I think any parent who parents - with as much integrity, caring, and knowledge that they can muster and with basic good intentions - should be applauded.

 

My main point was that the question of why someone wants children, to me, is always going to come down to the basic same things. I want to. I have an instinct to. I feel it is my higher purpose, or that it is something I must do.

 

I am not saying that is wrong. On the contrary, I recognize it as natural. And healthy, in its own right. That isn't the problem.

 

I never felt comfortable justifying my desire to have a biological child as a "need" - I always recognized it was a strong desire and a strong preference and that it had its selfish aspects. I think becoming a parent and being a parent requires blunt self-honesty because, at least for me, I have to balance regularly my desires against my child's - and I mean the small stuff that comes up on a daily basis as well as the bigger stuff. I had to learn to trust myself that my "selfishness" was outweighed by my desire to do what's best for my child at all times. Of course part of the desire for biological children might be hormonal/instinctive but since I had some hard questions to answer about my desire to have children I decided early on that blunt self-honesty was the only way it would work for me.

[misguided angel]

well for me watching my kids grow and having fun with them is better than any high i've ever had in my life, i wouldn't ever want to be without them. i always wanted children just never realised how much fun they would be

[90_hour_sleep]

well for me watching my kids grow and having fun with them is better than any high i've ever had in my life, i wouldn't ever want to be without them. i always wanted children just never realised how much fun they would be

 

sheer joy? something like that?

 

i'd be hard pressed to think of a better reason. you know...philosphical implications aside...this seems to be the very bottom line.

 

ever reflected on why it's so much fun? someone else mentioned a reference to plants...and how you have this opportunity to care for something...to provide it with sustenance. and there's a sort of imperceptible exhileration in being a part of that. so...if having children feels at all like that (as a means of loose comparison)...i think i can appreciate where you're coming from; although, i imagine the parenting experience to be on an entirely different level.

 

 

[Batya33]

sheer joy? something like that?

 

i'd be hard pressed to think of a better reason. you know...philosphical implications aside...this seems to be the very bottom line.

 

ever reflected on why it's so much fun? someone else mentioned a reference to plants...and how you have this opportunity to care for something...to provide it with sustenance. and there's a sort of imperceptible exhileration in being a part of that. so...if having children feels at all like that (as a means of loose comparison)...i think i can appreciate where you're coming from; although, i imagine the parenting experience to be on an entirely different level.

 

 

 

It's fun because of the infinite light bulb and aha moments you see them have -the sound of his laugh, how he lights up at the tiniest things, how it's like Disney World when I raise the blinds in his room -and it's the same reaction -sheer delight and excitement twice a day, every day - it's the way he has complete trust in us and looks up at us (literally and figuratively) to show him more ways to explore his world. It's how he wants to copy everything his father does- whether it's marching around the room, making funny siren noises, how he spins like a top until he falls down especially if we sing one of his favorite songs. How he thinks he is hiding when he faces the wall and covers his eyes, and how you get to see the world as fun when you mistakenly thought things like leaves, helicopters, etc were just ordinary, mundane things.

 

It's the most fun if you resist the urge to overthink things - sure it's interesting to think about "why" it's fun but there are so many things happening at every moment that are fun and inspiring. stopping and thinkign too much and you miss it (just like the problem as I see it with parents who are constantly behind a camera - I think they miss the moments too at times in trying to get the perfect shot or video).

 

The opportunity to care for a child and provide it sustenance I am sure plays a role. nothing to do with plants in my personal opinion- apples and oranges -pun intended ;_0

[90_hour_sleep]

your first paragraph...

 

what i glean from that is a completely uninhibited, unadulterated, limitless reality. a world that is free from the imposition of thoughts. things are not mundane...but because we have a fixation on attaching labels to events and phenomena...they quickly lose their luster. how can something be fresh and alive if it's been stuffed away in a dusty old box somewhere in the recesses? really.

 

childhood...and the experience of children makes complete sense on these terms. babies are open little creatures. their lives are not bound by filters of any kind. free to absorb.

 

"Just watch little babies. They’ve done nothing to be so happy about. They don’t work; they poop in their pants; and they have no goals other than to expand, grow, and explore this amazing world. They love everyone, they’re completely entertained by a plastic bottle or goofy faces, and they’re in a constant state of love—yet they have no teeth, no hair, and they’re pudgy and flatulent. How could they possibly be so joyful and easily pleased? Because they’re still in harmony with the Source that intended them here; they have no resistance to being joyful. Be like that baby you once were in terms of being joyful. You don’t need a reason to be happy…your desire to be so is sufficient."

 

apples and oranges...that statement couldn't have proved the point more sufficiently. thanks for throwing that in the mix.

[tiredofvampires]

I was the one who referred to plants.

 

And what I was getting at was this very simple principle: loving to nurture something as it grows.

 

In the case of a child it's a someone.

 

But whether it's nurturing a garden, nurturing an animal, nurturing a student, nurturing a child that has come from your own body (or your partner's body, if you're a man) and whom you call "my child", I think the impulse is the same. It's just expressed in different ways. I don't equate a child with a plant, obviously, but I'm talking about the nurturing feeling.

 

Children put me squarely in the moment. It's like beginner's mind -- the world through their eyes is built on wonder. I think because I haven't lost childlike wonder myself, I instantly connect with children and they with me. That's when you are having fun together.

[OptomisticGirl]

I was the one who referred to plants.

 

And what I was getting at was this very simple principle: loving to nurture something as it grows.

 

In the case of a child it's a someone.

 

But whether it's nurturing a garden, nurturing an animal, nurturing a student, nurturing a child that has come from your own body (or your partner's body, if you're a man) and whom you call "my child", I think the impulse is the same. It's just expressed in different ways. I don't equate a child with a plant, obviously, but I'm talking about the nurturing feeling.

 

Children put me squarely in the moment. It's like beginner's mind -- the world through their eyes is built on wonder. I think because I haven't lost childlike wonder myself, I instantly connect with children and they with me. That's when you are having fun together.

 

It's like when my sister had my nephew. I was SO jealous because obviously I have always wanted kids and here's my kid sister, popping one out before me. It took me a long time to get over that (which were my own issues) but I remember the moment I realized, truly realized, I loved my nephew unconditionally. He was about seven months and he went to reach for something and I told him no. He turned to me, I swear raised one eyebrow (and since he's eyebrow hair is blonde he really doesn't have eyebrows, just the muscles of them if you know what I mean) and then scrunched his nose and mouth together in a defiant 'you can't tell me what to do.' God help me I burst into laughter. My favorite part of childhood (from what I have witnessed of as an aunt threw him, my niece, and many other babies) is that stage were you start to see their little personalities. Yeah they look cute laying there and pooing themselves and giggling but when they start being able to crawl and reach for things, about that time is when you get to see the person they are growing to be - and it's so warming to know you are watching this person grow from the very beginning. My niece will be 3 this coming march but whenever I look at her I don't see the tiny little girl running around she is now - I still see that eight month blonde haired baby who head butted me in the nose and caused my nose to bleed.

[OptomisticGirl]

I was the one who referred to plants.

 

And what I was getting at was this very simple principle: loving to nurture something as it grows.

 

In the case of a child it's a someone.

 

But whether it's nurturing a garden, nurturing an animal, nurturing a student, nurturing a child that has come from your own body (or your partner's body, if you're a man) and whom you call "my child", I think the impulse is the same. It's just expressed in different ways. I don't equate a child with a plant, obviously, but I'm talking about the nurturing feeling.

 

Children put me squarely in the moment. It's like beginner's mind -- the world through their eyes is built on wonder. I think because I haven't lost childlike wonder myself, I instantly connect with children and they with me. That's when you are having fun together.

 

It's like when my sister had my nephew. I was SO jealous because obviously I have always wanted kids and here's my kid sister, popping one out before me. It took me a long time to get over that (which were my own issues) but I remember the moment I realized, truly realized, I loved my nephew unconditionally. He was about seven months and he went to reach for something and I told him no. He turned to me, I swear raised one eyebrow (and since he's eyebrow hair is blonde he really doesn't have eyebrows, just the muscles of them if you know what I mean) and then scrunched his nose and mouth together in a defiant 'you can't tell me what to do.' God help me I burst into laughter. My favorite part of childhood (from what I have witnessed of as an aunt threw him, my niece, and many other babies) is that stage were you start to see their little personalities. Yeah they look cute laying there and pooing themselves and giggling but when they start being able to crawl and reach for things, about that time is when you get to see the person they are growing to be - and it's so warming to know you are watching this person grow from the very beginning. My niece will be 3 this coming march but whenever I look at her I don't see the tiny little girl running around she is now - I still see that eight month blonde haired baby who head butted me in the nose and caused my nose to bleed.

[90_hour_sleep]

I was the one who referred to plants.

 

And what I was getting at was this very simple principle: loving to nurture something as it grows.

 

In the case of a child it's a someone.

 

But whether it's nurturing a garden, nurturing an animal, nurturing a student, nurturing a child that has come from your own body (or your partner's body, if you're a man) and whom you call "my child", I think the impulse is the same. It's just expressed in different ways. I don't equate a child with a plant, obviously, but I'm talking about the nurturing feeling.

 

Children put me squarely in the moment. It's like beginner's mind -- the world through their eyes is built on wonder. I think because I haven't lost childlike wonder myself, I instantly connect with children and they with me. That's when you are having fun together.

 

that was kind of the point of my last post. i think childlike wonder all but vanishes in later years of life. and having a child works to counteract that bit of foolery. we become such rigid creatures...bound by a set of defined parameters that keep us censored to anything that doesn't quite fit. it's disheartening. is it possible that THIS is the primordial allure of procreation? it takes us back to our natural state of being. if only for some fleeting moments...we see the world as it was truly meant to be seen...through the eyes of a child. no shame...no guilt...no insecurity...no ambition...no passion...no lust...etc, etc, etc. no preconceptions. no illusions. no limitations. a baby. a perfect little creation. and he'll take us back to our own root. joy in being. NOTHING more...because he needs nothing more. forgive me for finding such raw inspiration in THAT!

 

 

 

i know what you mean about nurturing, TOV (ugh...so formal). i think it's a basic human function. and i know there are those that will claim a sort of hierarchal stance in terms of bearing children. but...is that really a fair assessment? nurturing comes in all sorts of forms. and to discredit one's form of nurturing because it doesn't quite measure up...well...i'm sure you can intimate my sentiments on those terms. nurturing is nurturing is nurturing. we're all mothers on some level. it's part of our basic human goodness.

 

and like you say...''squarely in the moment''. i'd like to see you with children. i've never seen your face...but i HAVE felt your presence here...and i can envision the energy you'd bring to some childlike interactions. may surprise you...but i've actually had some great connections with children as well. and i'm learning that i don't take exception to the notion of having children myself...of being a father...a creator. my reluctance does not factor in on those terms. it's something different...something i've yet to define. and if this discussion has taught me anything...it's that perhaps a lack of definition is a true blessing. perhaps in my pursuit of definition i encounter only limitations in my being. perhaps i miss the point entirely. and it's strange...because on so many levels i've abandoned my need to identify with a cause...any cause. i've abandoned the need to see the point. and in that sense...i think i've realized a great many things. but here i find myself stuck. stuck in a passionate position...which is always on some level an ill-conceived cause. passion adds so much to our existence...but at times it is the greatest dividing force that we know. it's a polarizing force when it becomes a means to it's own end. i'm not discrediting passion...only suggesting that it's really not as divine as we often make it out to be.

 

something's clicked.

 

i *heart* you.

[90_hour_sleep]

kinda love this post, OG. see...i see the 'childlike' wonder that's the topic of discussion tonight...and i see it in YOU!

 

and i think i actually know what you're referring to. to be honest...i've never really been swept away by the sentimentality of newborn babies. and to be frank...newborns don't really excite me at all.

 

BUT...

 

as soon as that baby begins to take shape...the ballgame changes completely. from my own perspective...it happens after about a year. i'll admit...i can very easily get swept away by the delight of a one year old!! and it's just what you've described here. the feeling behind the words.

 

 

 

happy thoughts.

[OptomisticGirl]

kinda love this post, OG. see...i see the 'childlike' wonder that's the topic of discussion tonight...and i see it in YOU!

 

and i think i actually know what you're referring to. to be honest...i've never really been swept away by the sentimentality of newborn babies. and to be frank...newborns don't really excite me at all.

 

BUT...

 

as soon as that baby begins to take shape...the ballgame changes completely. from my own perspective...it happens after about a year. i'll admit...i can very easily get swept away by the delight of a one year old!! and it's just what you've described here. the feeling behind the words.

 

 

 

happy thoughts.

 

Exactly. I mean, I love babies, I LOOOVVEE newborns and how no company in the world can recreate that smell that is of a fresh cleaned baby cuddling in your arms but there is also nothing like watching them grow, watch them become who they will and guiding them to that. As Batya said, watching your son mimick his dad or your daughter take qualities you know only your wife has - and I think that plays a part in it to, looking and seeing a part of you (the BEST of you) in another person and watching that part grow into their own person but you there as well. My nephew is the spitting image of my sister when she was a baby - fat baby cheeks, pig nose - but my mom told me the other day he was sitting there and playing and the way he looked at her, she said it was like I was sitting there 23 years ago looking at her and even as just an aunt, that completely warmed my heart. I love how I can't leave the room or he pitches a fit (he truly is spoiled) or how when he's introduced to new family members (we live far away from our family) and he isn't comfortable, I'm one of the people he turns to and reachs his little chubby baby arms out to. Same with my niece. I only get to see her once or twice a month, MAYBE, but every time I walk through the door she takes of running at me like I never missed a day.

 

I'm being gushy tonight, lol

[Seraphim]

Awwww even a new born has a personality. My son even had a personality before he was born. I had hints of what he was going to be like in the way he kicked inside me, the way he would not co operate with ultrasounds, when he was asleep and when he was awake and when I would take a bath and trickle the water over my tummy and he would kick like he was all excited every time I did that. Even the nurses the day he was born told me he one stubborn little personality, which he most certainly does.

 

I remember the first time he hugged me and said mummmm mummm mummmm, he was about 5 months old. Just the look of adoration in his eyes and I had the same look for him. I just loved the way he would laugh hysterically at things he thought was funny from the time he was about 3 months old. Nothing more beautiful than a baby's laugh.It is pure joy. I would lay him on his back and make his legs go fast and make sounds like a train and tell him he was a "choo choo" and he would laugh like crazy. Just SO many memories. Yes, if you ever want to live purely in the moment without prejudice of ANY kind have a child.

[Batya33]

I disagree that babies don't "work" -they are working hard at exploring their world, figuring stuff out (even if they can't verbalize) - I think it was Piaget who said that "play is the business of childhood" oh I'm probably wrong about the attribution, sorry, but not the quote. And I love that quote -I'm reminded of it almost daily as I watch my son do his little projects that we refer to as "play".

 

You write in such flowery terms - interesting choice! What worked best for me in my former (and hopefully future, again) career and current full-time mom-hood was to distill as much as I could into simple terms -even in my thoughts - so that I didn't get mired down in overthinking or making things more complicated than they needed to be. That's just what worked for me and what brought the most depth and substance to my life because I found I got buried in verbage and used more complicated or flowery words as an excuse not to face simple reality. Not sure if that ever happens to you (or to anyone else!) just sharing...

[Batya33]

I was the one who referred to plants.

 

And what I was getting at was this very simple principle: loving to nurture something as it grows.

 

In the case of a child it's a someone.

 

But whether it's nurturing a garden, nurturing an animal, nurturing a student, nurturing a child that has come from your own body (or your partner's body, if you're a man) and whom you call "my child", I think the impulse is the same. It's just expressed in different ways. I don't equate a child with a plant, obviously, but I'm talking about the nurturing feeling.

 

Children put me squarely in the moment. It's like beginner's mind -- the world through their eyes is built on wonder. I think because I haven't lost childlike wonder myself, I instantly connect with children and they with me. That's when you are having fun together.

 

I was responding to the way the OP described the analogy. I do see the nurturing analogy and I cared for plants and hamsters and turtles when I was younger (I am horrible now with plants, that's for another thread....) but the nurturing comparison to me at least is so far removed as to be irrelevant in my experience. I'm sure it's relevant to others!

[Seraphim]

^^I agree babies work very hard to learn all they can. One never again learns so much as they do in their first year of life. Play is an important learning tool for baby humans, baby animals etc. It is the ONLY way they can learn at that point other than mimicking. I always told my son when he was a baby and when he was little he was "doing his work, the work he needed to do, it was just called "play".

[tinkerbellkj]

Awwww even a new born has a personality. My son even had a personality before he was born. I had hints of what he was going to be like in the way he kicked inside me, the way he would not co operate with ultrasounds, when he was asleep and when he was awake and when I would take a bath and trickle the water over my tummy and he would kick like he was all excited every time I did that. Even the nurses the day he was born told me he one stubborn little personality, which he most certainly does.

 

I love this! I am a new mom (12 weeks on Monday, can't believe it!) and I can honestly say before I ever saw his face and touched his skin, I knew him. His personality is certainly developing day by day, but he definitely had one before he was born.

 

I agree 100% the babies 'work', I mean my son held his bottle today, something that he certainly could not do 2 months ago, or even 2 weeks ago. He is making bigger leaps at a time that I am. Watching him discover the smallest things (big for him!) makes me stop for a minute and remind myself of that. It truly is beautiful. When he smiles, it is purely innocent, and raw happiness something I feel that a lot of adults lose sight of. He is such a joy to my life, and I am the lucky one.

 

Someone wrote this quote on a baby shower gift that I received, and at the time I didn't realize how true this was: "The moment a child is born, the mother is also born. She never existed before. The woman existed, but the mother, never. A mother is something absolutely new." And just as my son is developing, so am I.

[90_hour_sleep]

you know...that little blurb about babies...really didn't include ''quotations'' around the word 'work'. so...what's happened here is that you've altered the context of the words. it's clear that the reference was to earning a living. and yes...there is a difference. a very clear difference. and if you'd like to delve into the nature of 'earning a living'...by all means go ahead. but i'd feel compelled to point out that this kind of skips a few beats in terms of the scope of this thread. talk about overthinking.

 

you're right though. it's very "interesting". interesting. interesting. you know, batya...i've been accomodating to this point...but i'm growing a bit weary of your rude posting in this thread. your intent has been well understood since your first contribution here. if you'd care to discuss...and offer constructive feedback in terms of the original context of this thread...by all means...feel free to share; however, subtlely disrespecting my perspective and the delivery of that perspective is crass and unnecessary. it's not helpful. and it's not appreciated.

 

i respect your views and opinions...and if you feel that it is not within your power to do the same...i would request that you remove yourself from further discussion here.

 

thank you for your time and consideration.

 

sincerely,

 

 

90_hour_sleep

[tiredofvampires]

OMG, OG!! Hahaha, on that second highlighted bit, I had a pretty big smile plastered on my face just reading this! Your description is so vivid, I can just picture that! That's precious!

 

As to the first highlighted part, oh boy, can I tell you I relate to that feeling (though since I'm a lot older than you, it's of course different).

 

My sister (who's 2 years younger than me) has a son who's about 3 1/2 now...and I had to have a very serious "talk" with myself when she became pregnant, facing the fact that our paths were about to diverge in ways, experientially, in a very dramatic way, even though we'd always be best friends comparing notes. This is the one thing I'd dreamed of comparing notes about all my life -- and interestingly enough, it was actually I who was less conflicted about childbearing than she. She had received the news of being pregnant with horror at first (which as you can imagine, was challenging for me to remove my judgments from) -- it was an unexpected pregnancy for her at a time when she felt her career was "finally taking off a bit." And she is not naturally "mothering," as I am, even by her own admission. I never had any doubt that I could forego the pressures of a career for the time I was raising a young child, and would have chosen motherhood to take the front seat with zero qualms (even though I have other ambitions besides). But now she was pregnant...married...and I couldn't be farther away from either mark. It felt uncomfortably, sadly ironic (uncomfortable because I only wished the best for her, and for this to happen, as she spoke of wanting to be a mother "at some point", and I detested this level of envy I was feeling)...even though I knew she would grow to find it central and life-altering in a good way, as she has. And she's a wonderful, devoted mother. Motherhood has changed her in so many ways, and for the first time we actually see more eye to eye in ways.

 

But I could feel the brisk, chilly headwinds facing me of having to always relate to this experience (and lifetime commitment) she was about to embark on very closely, without being able to refer to a parallel one myself. Each time we speak on the phone, she's talking to her "pumpkin", who is my beloved nephew, and I hear his little chirping voice in the background -- she'll interrupt our conversation to give him a juice box, or tell him mommy's getting off the phone soon, but he has to play quietly or put some toy away. And I feel fully there in my mind, as though I'm part of it. Even though I'm only a spectator. But I feel the closeness of every word they exchange, the intimacy. And there's always this awful lump in my throat. I think for me the trial is to keep asking myself if I want to participate with my heart open to the love that we can all pool and share...or if I want to focus on the feeling of lack that I don't have "my own." My own. My own LOVE. As though I can't love my nephew as much as his mommy does. I don't spend as much time as mommy does with him, and I live 6,000 miles away -- but I would throw myself in front of a train in an instant for him. I would throw myself in front of a train for HER, not just because she's my best friend and I'd do anything for her, but because she's his mother and he will be needing her for decades to come. So I have to ask myself...at my lowest moments...how much "having my own" HAS to happen to love and feel loved, or to marvel at the stages of growth that he goes through (which I agree, is the most eye-opening, exciting and amazing part of it -- the PROGRESSION, watching something take its own shape and realize itself!), to be there to witness his learning process and be a force of positive guidance, influence, protection, and care in his life. These are the attributes of motherhood, in my humble opinion.

 

Which is why I feel I certainly "exist" as a mother, even though I am not one, technically speaking. I don't feel this is some sort of compensatory emotion. It's a real participation in the mothering instinct. I'm not at peace with this issue, but I do feel that it's a daily choice to take my place at the "mothering" table through my mothering instincts with my nephew and embrace THOSE, for having those chances, or I can decide to feel isolated and live in the corner because I haven't had my own child. I don't feel in control of my emotions much of the time, but I do believe that ultimately, it's a choice to be a part of things that are available to me (things, meaning undifferentiated love -- which Gibran is invoking) or not -- and miss out big time. As in, rest-of-our-lives big time.

 

Being an auntie is a great priviledge, isn't it, OG! I have an aunt myself who, while I don't regard the same as my mother, has done things for me that my own mother did not.

 

You know, there was one day I was feeding my nephew when he was only 3 months old. He had such terrible colic, and my brother-in-law was overseas, so it was quite stressful. My sis was upstairs, trying to grab a few winks, while I rocked him and held the bottle, humming to soothe him. Just moments before, he had been a crimson knot of screeching and now his cheeks had returned to their normal alabaster hue. His face was perfectly placid -- and you know that skin! That matchlessly delicate, silky skin. He was (and is) a beautiful child, by anyone's account, but it was his eyes that captivated me during this feeding. He was just looking so deeply into my gaze, where we locked. And there wasn't that awkwardness, or feeling of being exposed, or having to dance around "body signals" in this exchange, like with adults. This deep looking wasn't "creepy" or something you'd have to explain away. I was just exploring his eyes and he mine. I didn't feel there was anything to prove to him or vice versa, and it was such a leap of liberation, that feeling. There was a feeling he was conveying to me that was such TOTAL TRUST and I was so struck with Consciousness (with a big "C"!), even though it was only in-the-rough at that age. I looked into the mossy shade of those eyes, blinking innocently with NO GUARD as they searched my own eyes, and I just felt this connection to everything. It was like peering through the doors of eternity.

 

I think I could have easily had this same experience as his mother, or with my own child. It really didn't matter.

 

I have to keep reminding myself that not "owning" a child -- getting back to the very OP -- doesn't mean that I can't "own" my experiences. And truly, I think a mother's love is available to anyone...even a father. It's just an unconditional engagement with another, period.

 

OP (now, how formal is that! But I think decorum's the order of the day! I've still not exhausted my thoughts, but I just wanted to say, I really respect the fact that as a man, you'd start a thread like this. I went back through the thread just out of interest to see how many men contributed to it, and there have only been 3 (not including yourself) in 70 odd posts. One of which doesn't particularly care to have children one way or the other. So that is not incidental in my opinion. Look at all the threads on this board about families and parenting, and relationships. Yet this topic -- why would you want children? -- (posed by a man! how awesome and unexpected is that!) is being answered almost exclusively by women. That says a lot in my opinion. We could speculate about what exactly it says -- but I believe it has something to do with just how central biologically and psychically this is to WOMEN, in a way that's more peripheral to men. And therefore...how finding a "reason" to procreate for us is less an intellectual question, and more a visceral one.

 

I think it's really grand that you are asking questions about womanhood and motherhood -- a subject steeped in estrogen, haha -- which not many posters on this board are touching with a 10-foot pole. And even though you're struggling with this conceptually, I see a wish to enter this territory which is almost akin on this board to walking into the ladies' room and finding a place in it. That takes some chutzpah.

 

My hat's off to you. And thank you for your post, maybe I'll return to a few thoughts there, conditions permitting. I think I've rambled enough for now....I know it's been a little discursive, but I do think it relates to the original theme.

[Batya33]

I was simply sharing the downsides of what I see as your overthinking/overanalysis of whether to have children -and that is the personal downsides -because I have taken that path, too, both before and after I had a baby -and found the downsides I shared above. I don't think my disagreement with some of your opinions is rude in the least and certainly not meant to be that, or disrespectful. I think being a full-time parent is work just like holding down a full-time job and I think babies and young children work when they play. No issue if you disagree with any or all of my opinions.

 

I think I did offer constructive feedback - I tried to show you a perspective of a new parent (and we are all individuals with individual perspectives of course!) since you shared your perspective as someone who probably does not want children and who focused on a passage about how children do not belong to the parents in meaningful ways. It was an interesting passage that, as I wrote above, had no real relevance to my day to day experience as a new parent - but that doesn't make it wrong or less interesting. I think parenting and why people choose to be parents or not is a fascinating topic.