What is going on with MEN?

[Batya33]

I live in a major city and always have. I've been in the dating game on and off for over 20 years (much of that time I was in one of several serious relationships). In my experience, the men I meet and date/get involved with are interested in getting serious and settling down/getting married/starting a family.

 

While I despise the label "career woman" I have been labeled that because I happen to be a woman and I happen to have a career. I have been career-oriented and college/grad school-oriented since I was a teenager. I've also been family oriented during that entire time, and never lost my femininity.

 

So, if anyone was to be prime for experiencing these "differences" you speak of it would be me, right - the "career woman" who has her own life, own friends, own money, own interests and hobbies and activities. But, nope, I never had trouble meeting serious minded men. I ran accross a few men who wanted a casual sexual arrangement but typically by the second date at the latest it was clear to them that that was not my style. Other men who were interested in that did not approach me for that.

 

Why? Not sure. I could speculate that it's because I've always known how important it is to be a multi-faceted person - I am not "my career" - I don't feel the need to wear my "career hat" in social situations - and I prefer not to. I enjoy being feminine and letting a man take care of me in the appropriate situations and when I am with a man who enjoys taking care of a woman. I don't feel threatened by that; to the contrary I like it because I spend enough hours of my day at work having to be a professional, make decisions, delegate to staff, etc. But it's pure speculation.

 

My better guess is that those women who claim that "men" don't "want relationships" should take a closer look at the sorts of men they are attracted to, how they interact with the men they know and meet, their social skills, etc etc. I agree that a sexist man probably won't be interested in a woman who has a career, but that's just that particular man with that particular attitude. I don't think it's rampant as you suggest - based on mine and others' experiences.

[Aschleigh]

Yeah relationships are cumbersome and hard work. I don't think I want one right now.

[JadedStar]

"This is a terrible time to be growing up..."

 

You bet. Instant gratification etc. Society's gone down the tubes. Of course this has been said before, in wholly other time periods, but it's especially true now with the advent of TV, Internet, cell phones, advertising, and all at the same time! New frontiers maybe aren't so great. Not much to be done at this point but either be a hermit, or go with the flow.

 

Yeah i totally agree. Technology has had a positive AND very negative impact on people and relationships...there is little denying that.

[Batya33]

I hope that wasn't a response to my post. I've found relationships to require significant effort at times. But at least in my relationship now it's been well worth it because I end up learning a lot about myself and "stretching" myself. I do not find them cumbersome. This relationship mostly enriches my life.

[ghost69]

a lot of women in america have lost values/morale. they are mostly chasing guys to get what they can from them. like money, status, connections, etc.

[Batya33]

Not sure where these "lot of women are" - where in america? what age group? straight? gay? married, single? what specific values or morals are you referring to? Is this particular to America - or do you include Canada in your sweeping generalization? Any basis other than your personal opinion?

[ghost69]

Not sure where these "lot of women are" - where in america? what age group? straight? gay? married, single? what specific values or morals are you referring to? Is this particular to America - or do you include Canada in your sweeping generalization? Any basis other than your personal opinion?

 

mostly the younger coming up right now. 30 and under. most of them are not out for happiness anymore. at least not pure happiness and the dream of being with someone forever and loving them. most are after the dollar, power, social status, etc. they try and take advantage of guys nowadays. they use their body, prissiness, etc. and don't deny this batya. not saying all girls do this. i've never been to canada. but i know a lot of women from mexico still have family values and still value a man for a man. not how much is in the wallet.

 

a lot of european countries are still that way too. they value family and not tangible items. like a house, car, diamonds, etc. they don't need all of that to be happy. a lot of women in america have lost touch with that.

 

lol @ my sweeping generalization. a lot of people in america will tell you the same thing. even good women will explain it too. usually ones will have female friends like this or a guy that was taken advantage of.

[Batya33]

Thanks for clarifying that you have no factual basis for what you wrote. Obviously you're entitled to express your opinion but you did so in a way that suggested it had some facts to back it up. And thanks for clarifying that you weren't talking about all women just women under 30. not sure how you drew that line in the sand either.

 

In my experience what you wrote is completely inaccurate - there are silly media images and tabloids that characterize young women in the way you described but it's certainly not the case. Why not take a glance at the memberships of the major charitable and volunteer organizations in the U.S. - I think you will see that a large percentage are young women. And that's just one example.

[ghost69]

Thanks for clarifying that you have no factual basis for what you wrote. Obviously you're entitled to express your opinion but you did so in a way that suggested it had some facts to back it up. And thanks for clarifying that you weren't talking about all women just women under 30. not sure how you drew that line in the sand either.

 

In my experience what you wrote is completely inaccurate - there are silly media images and tabloids that characterize young women in the way you described but it's certainly not the case. Why not take a glance at the memberships of the major charitable and volunteer organizations in the U.S. - I think you will see that a large percentage are young women. And that's just one example.

 

no factual basis. HAHA. you must be in a small town or city. i've met plenty of women like this. so you have examples of where some great girls are. fantastic. compare the small amount of women that are part of a charity who are great versus all the stuck up brats that marry guys for cash.

[Batya33]

I meant that you have no factual basis for the sweeping generalization you made about "most American women" which in the very next post became "women under 30."

 

Once again you're entitled to your opinions but to state it as any sort of fact is not only untrue, it's offensive - in my opinion.

[poloplayer]

a lot of women in america have lost values/morale

 

I completely agree ghost, but so have many men.

[fivespot]

Didn't we have this EXACT same argument in another post???

 

We can't generalize, because I'm going through a real hard time relationship-wise, and I'm a guy. My sister is to, and she's a girl.

 

No one can say all women are like this, all men are like that...well, maybe in this age group, or that part of the world.

 

The fact is society has taken a severe turn for the worse, at least in western civilization.

 

In this part of the world, for both men and women of all ages, PEOPLE ARE DISPOSABLE. It happens all too often...why fix the tv when you can buy a new one? I laugh everytime I see this old abandoned store downtown that still has a sign outside that reads, "shoe repair."

 

Why work on an old relationship when you can start a new one?

 

It's the VALUE SYSTEM that's at fault. We don't appreciate what we have until it's too late.

 

This isn't entirely true for all people. There are people out there that want the stability of a relationship and they find someone that wants the same. Life is just peachy. But when you've had your heart broken so many times, can anyone here really blame someone for not taking things too seriously???

 

Why do more guys and girls just want sex and no commitment nowadays? Because they've had their hearts ripped out time and time again? Why? Because people would rather throw relationships away than fix them!

[Batya33]

It used to be that a woman couldn't leave a bad or abusive relationship because she had no other options or opportunities. Same with, I am sure, a number of gay men who hid their homosexuality from the world because it wasn't accepted. What is viewed now as people being more solid and stable likely had more to do with limited options than anything else.

[annie24]

i disagree. as opposed to our grandmothers, who didn't work outside the home and didn't have jobs, i think the young women today have less incentive to go after a rich man than our 'family-oriented grandmothers.'

 

i agree that many in america are materialistic, but just as many people aren't. when you have your basic needs fulfilled - food, shelter, clothing, you can focus on trying to obtain happiness, love, all that. i have had many men in eastern europe come onto me when i was traveling there because they knew that as an american woman, i have a good financial situation, and suddenly they are keen to marry me. that's because i would be their ticket to a better life situation than the one they are currently in.

 

as an american woman under 30, i'm not looking for a rich man with a fancy car, i can afford those things myself, i'd rather find true love. i think a lot of my friends would agree.

[melrich]

as opposed to our grandmothers, who didn't work outside the home and didn't have jobs, i think the young women today have less incentive to go after a rich man than our 'family-oriented grandmothers.'

 

That seems to make sense. I think women today are far, far more confident of making it on their own than they were even 20 years ago.

 

i have had many men in eastern europe come onto me when i was traveling there because they knew that as an american woman, i have a good financial situation, and suddenly they are keen to marry me.

 

You turned them all down? Any regrets?!?

[fivespot]

That seems to make sense. I think women today are far, far more confident of making it on their own than they were even 20 years ago.

 

So is this good or bad?

 

With women being so independent now, and having more options than ever, won't they be more inclined--even moreso than men--to abandon a relationship rather than work on fixing it?

 

If you know she's probably going to leave as soon as she gets bored, well then no wonder guys don't want to commit. What's the point?

[Batya33]

No - they would be more inclined not to stay in a relationship for the wrong reasons like for financial reasons or because of the stigma of being unmarried.

 

Being independent makes you a better candidate for staying in a relationship that is healthy. Being dependent motivates someone to stay in a relationship out of need as opposed to desire.

 

It all depends on whether you believe that it doesn't matter whether the relationship is based on love, caring, financial support or "need" -- that the people should stay together no matter what. Being independent gave women the option - just like men - to leave relationships that were unhealthy, harmful or dangerous. I don't think it made any difference if a relationship was healthy because independence is not the same as "I don't want to be in a relationship."

[Aschleigh]

Women still value relationships greatly, we are the keeper of the family, the mother who gives birth and ensures that our children live long enough to be viable on their own.

We now also have careers, travel, books to write and many more options than ever before. Where women used to get married mostly for financial and social reasons, we are now wanting emotional connection . My grandma expected her husband to provide finacially, she didn't expect him to be emotionally attuned to her. I would not marry a man no matter what he had if I didn't feel loved, and emotionally healthy with him. I would try to fix any relationship where our connection was solid.

[melrich]

So is this good or bad?

 

Can't be anything but good I think.

 

With women being so independent now, and having more options than ever, won't they be more inclined--even moreso than men--to abandon a relationship rather than work on fixing it?

 

I don't know if being so independent is the driver of this. I mean if you flipped it you would say that because men have been finacially independent for the last 100 years they would discard relationships easily. But they never have. In fact in most marriage statistics over the past 40 or 50 years, women instigate far more divorces than men.

 

I do think in general, disposability has become a trait of society. Whether it relates to relationships, jobs, material possessions.

[fivespot]

Batya, that makes sense...

 

Because I believe a relationship based on "need" isn't really a relationship at all...

 

But can't this all this independence put a strain on even healthy relationships?

 

Face it, there are commitment-phobes out there. And I read posts on here all the time (especially in the long-term/marriage forums) about women getting cold feet. They've got the best boyfriend in the world, they both have good jobs, everything seems perfect...

 

and yet, she thinks something isn't quite right. If you read through some of them--and I've only ever seen female cases of this--they start to look for reasons why they should be breaking things off rather than getting married.

[fivespot]

I don't know if being so independent is the driver of this. I mean if you flipped it you would say that because men have been finacially independent for the last 100 years they would discard relationships easily. But they never have. In fact in most marriage statistics over the past 40 or 50 years, women instigate far more divorces than men...

 

Right...my point exactly.

 

In my relationship, I knew what I wanted. I wanted to marry my girlfriend. I could imagine loving her for the rest of my life.

 

She was the one that was confused.

 

And from what I hear from my friends, I'm not the only guy that's experienced this...

[melrich]

In my relationship, I knew what I wanted. I wanted to marry my girlfriend. I could imagine loving her for the rest of my life.

 

She was the one that was confused.

 

Yeah but that probably doesn't go to the fact that women are increasingly independent. That probably goes to the fact that she wasn't sure about your relationship. And either gender could be in that position. Many men have done the same thing.

[Batya33]

No you're not the only guy and you're not the only person. Not sure what your point is - that since you and some of your friends have been rejected by girlfriends that must say something about "women" in general?

 

I think men stayed in those unhealthy or loveless relationships because of the stigma of being unmarried, because they couldn't afford to get divorced, because it was nice to have someone to keep the house tidy and raise their children, because it was easier to have affairs since the women couldn't leave.

[fivespot]

My point is it seems to me girls are second guessing themselves about healthy relationships. With independence comes options. And if girls are always looking for greener pastures, again, how seriously are you supposed to take a relationship?

 

Let me go to extremes here by saying I think roles are completely reversed now. Women don't need men for financial support. I think men NEED women now! I think men are more inclined to stay in an abusive relationship for fear of being single, loss of regular sex, etc.

 

I think now more than ever, men have to do more (MUCH MORE) to get their woman to stay.

[Batya33]

The flaw in your argument is that independence means looking for greener pastures. That's not an accurate link in the least. Independence means you can make a choice that is not based on financial need or need for "a man" to be accepted in society so that there is a better chance of making a choice based on the healthier reasons of love, caring, common interests and values, etc.