What is going on with MEN?

[Batya33]

I don't think treating a woman in the "traditional" sense is at all inconsistent with the spark. For me it enhances the spark.

[Pegasus]

In my opinion, relationships stopped working when "me" became more important than "we".

 

These days you can read everywhere that every person (women mostly) need to have their own complete life and that a man is just an addition to it. 99% of guys I know don't want to be just "addition" to someones life.

[annie24]

In my opinion, relationships stopped working when "me" became more important than "we".

 

These days you can read everywhere that every person (women mostly) need to have their own complete life and that a man is just an addition to it. 99% of guys I know don't want to be just "addition" to someones life.

 

you are saying that a woman is better off without a complete life? like not having friends or not being able to pay her bills? how is that sexy and attractive to a man?

[Batya33]

Having a boyfriend enhances my life but does not make my life. Enhance is different than "an addition".

[Pegasus]

you are saying that a woman is better off without a complete life? like not having friends or not being able to pay her bills? how is that sexy and attractive to a man?

 

No, you understood it wrong. I have nothing against woman (or man) being a complete person but what I was saying that when relationship is just an addition and not on the top of your priority list (when "me" becomes more important than "we") more relationships will fail that way because you would know it's easier to quit than work on it because it was "just an addition". I'm not saying that it's right or wrong nor ranting about this stuff, I'm just saying the way it is.

 

In a nutshell - it seems that everyone is preparing for "WHEN it fails, I'll still be a complete person without SO so who cares". "WHEN" become much more a rule than "IF".

 

I don't think there is a truly lasting relationship without at least some kind of dependence - from both male and female side.

[Pegasus]

Having a boyfriend enhances my life but does not make my life. Enhance is different than "an addition".

 

Sure it does but you know if that one fails you'll easily find another one. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's not what I want. If it's ok for you, I'm happy for you.

[Batya33]

Sure it does but you know if that one fails you'll easily find another one. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's not what I want. If it's ok for you, I'm happy for you.

 

Says who. Not in the least. He is not dispensable in the least - quite to the contrary. That's not how I treat relationships. It might be how I treat a first date or early dating - at that stage, yes, I am of the mindset that if after three or four dates it doesn't work out it won't be hard for me to meet someone else to go on a date with if that is what I want. It never has been.

[Pegasus]

Says who. Not in the least. He is not dispensable in the least - quite to the contrary. That's not how I treat relationships. It might be how I treat a first date or early dating - at that stage, yes, I am of the mindset that if after three or four dates it doesn't work out it won't be hard for me to meet someone else to go on a date with if that is what I want. It never has been.

 

So, relationship ("we") interests are more important to you than your ("me") interests?

[Batya33]

Both are important and your question is impossible to answer because it's too general. It depends on what the context is. He wouldn't want me to put "we" ahead of "me" in every case, and vice versa. In general I think people should act in their own best interests and take care of themselves as individuals. When you are a couple and there are decisions to be made that affect both of you - large or small - then you have to decide for each one what makes the most sense. Obviously there has to be prioritizing of "we" in many cases but that could mean for example, he will want me to do what is best for "me" instead of technically "we" because it would make him unhappy if I made a certain sacrifice for "we." And vice versa.

 

I think your question was posed so generally because you don't really want an answer but you just want to drive the point home that you believe that people today are too selfish to have a relationship. I don't agree with that generalization.

[Pegasus]

I think your question was posed so generally because you don't really want an answer but you just want to drive the point home that you believe that people today are too selfish to have a relationship. I don't agree with that generalization.

 

Well, you have your right to opinion.... I also noticed that you have some strange need to WIN every discussion here....

[StretchGee]

I don't think there is a truly lasting relationship without at least some kind of dependence - from both male and female side.

 

I don't buy this. I think dependence can look good from the outside, but it really rots a relationship from the inside. That is "dependence" as in addiction or codependence - not depending on someone some of the time.

 

In the context of this thread, I say truly lasting and healthy relationships require some commitment by both parties to 'be there' when one does 'need' the other, but also sufficient independence to not be needed all the time.

[Batya33]

Well, you have your right to opinion.... I also noticed that you have some strange need to WIN every discussion here....

 

As I've said many times I don't need to be right - but it sounds in this case like you do so your post to me is relevant to what you are attempting to accomplish. I expressed my opinion here because I thought it was important to respond to your generalization that women are me-centered to the exclusion of being we-centered and that "we" view men as disposable. Sounds quite a lot like you were expressing opinion as fact, in my opinion. I've never said I was right about the opinions I give about dating, relationships, etc. What I do like to do is clear up when people misinterpret what I write.

[Sunshine75]

I believe a lot of the relationship problems - dependance vs. independance - that are going on today have a lot to do with WAR.

 

After WWI, WWII, The Vietnam & Korean Wars(and even more recently with Desert Storm & what is this one called? "Iraqi Freedom") women were thrust into the position of having to be responsible for themselves and their families. They had to work. It wasn't a choice.

 

When the wars ended there were men who took "war brides", some who were seriously injured, and some who weren't able to come back at all. This left a lot of women in the position of still having to work to maintain themselves and their children if they had any.

 

After the repeated wars, it became more important for girls to be educated and subsequently emoployable because you didn't know if/when there would be another war. By the end of the Vietnam War with women's education & employment becoming more of the norm and the advent of the birth control pill, it seems that women gained some of the independance that men had - the ability to choose where they worked(not just schools, hospitals, & as secretaries), who they were with, if & when they married and had children.

 

By the 1980s, women had not only begun to work in positions previously only held by men, they also wanted to climb the proverbial ladder. They wanted higher wages, more opportunities to advance in their careers, and they didn't want to be discriminated against because they were "soft, fragile" women. So they wore shoulder pads and became more openly independent, aggressive & assertive in the workplace. Which spilled over into being more openly independent, aggressive & assertive outside of the workplace. This was necessary for advancement in the workplace, but unfortunate for romatic relationships because now men didn't know whether to court her in a romantic manner or treat her like "one of the guys."

 

In the 1990's and now 2000's, a woman is expected to have a career and most do. It's often an anomaly and looked down upon if a woman is a stay at home wife or mother. I've heard people call it "unhealthy" if a woman now makes her family and relationships the central focus of her life.

 

In all of this adaptation to a woman needing to be able to be completely self sufficient, the area that used to be the focus of a woman's life has had to be adapted too. Relationships between men and women aren't usually based on dependance any longer. Nor is it based on the woman giving up all for the relationship and the man just footing the bills.

 

Since a woman can be completely self sufficient with her own provision, her own friends & family, her own interests- a man isn't someone she's dependant on and has to cling to for everything. She can choose who she's with and in what way. She doesn't have to marry the first man that asks her, she can wait until she finds someone right for her - if she wants to marry at all.

 

I think men have had a really hard time adapting to these changes. It was really great for them when women got birth control pills(free sex & no risk of kids?!?!? GREAT!). It was probably even better when women became expected to work(don't have to pay for everything?!?!?! Even better!). But I don't think they've appreciated that those "perks" come with a down side for them.

 

Women's independance means that they have to come with more than just a paycheck or a marriage proposal. It also means that there will be men who want a relationship - and marriage - and find a woman who only wants a temporary relationship, sex, or to use them for money or status.

 

I think it used to be thought of as "normal" for a guy to "sow his oats" and run around from person to person without wanting a relationship for a long time, if ever. Now it's possible for a woman to do that too. She won't be ostracised because her position in society isn't based on who she's married to/in a relationship with. She has her own position based on her family, friends, and employment.

 

I believe there are still men and women who want a relationship and commitment in the more traditional sense of the word, but need to find a modern way to do it that includes both adapting to each other on a more individual basis. But even before that, they need to find each other, which is a problem in itself.

 

Sorry this was so long, but after reading 12 pages of this thread I had a lot to say.

[annie24]

^^^^ very interesting, and i agree! was your college thesis on this topic?

[Sunshine75]

lol Thanks.

 

It wasn't on this subject in particular, but I did do one that had to do with women in the workplace.

[mae zombiegirl]

In the past 10 years, I've seen a rejection of feminism that puzzles me, especially among women.

 

Well happy days! While bringing equality into the workplace/world is an honorable thing to strive for, the rampant man-bashing and feminazi's of the 70's and 80's was not. During this time women were told not to let men hold them back, that we could do anything a man could do, that men were the bane of our existence. So why do we need men then? I feel sorry for all the men who got left behind by women who felt like her guy was a ball and chain. Not all men were chauvanists. Not all men wanted to keep their women in the kitchen, tied to the stove. Women are dumping men left and right to "find themselves". Never thinking they did not have to take that journey alone...

 

So here we are, reaping the rewards of these nasty man-haters. Men who are ambivalent about having a relationship. After all, if Sex in the City is telling women to have sex like a man - and lot's of guys never wanted to have sex like that - why cant they do that too? Bring on the one night stands! Bring on the sex without a committment! yee haw!!

 

I have been looking all my life for a nice old fashioned man who likes to hold the car door open for me and wants to protect me. I can look after myself, and I have been looking after my child by myself for long enough. I want a partner. I want someone to take care of me. If a man has no use in the relationship except for sex, then why would he give you any more? If you can mow your own lawn or change your own tires what do you need him for??

 

If you want a commitment ask yourself what your partner needs and see if you are giving it to them. Then maybe they will give you what you need. If all you want is someone to put a ring on your finger, you may have to wait a long while...