What is going on with MEN?

[fivespot]

Sometimes I question whether or not it's even worth it.

 

Casual sex with no strings attached is much easier.

[StretchGee]

i have had many men in eastern europe come onto me when i was traveling there because they knew that as an american woman, i have a good financial situation, and suddenly they are keen to marry me. that's because i would be their ticket to a better life situation than the one they are currently in.

 

They said this to you: "Hey, baby, make me rich and marry me!"

 

I'd be more likely to bet you were the hot, American tourist and that was reason enough to hit on you.

[StretchGee]

Women still value relationships greatly, we are the keeper of the family, the mother who gives birth and ensures that our children live long enough to be viable on their own.

 

Two of these are no longer the sole possession of the woman, at least in the middle class and above. Equality has changed both ways, albeit slower for the men in family courts.

[Batya33]

Sometimes I question whether or not it's even worth it.

 

Casual sex with no strings attached is much easier.

 

Yes but for some, like me, even the thought makes me feel lonely and empty.

[fivespot]

The flaw in your argument is that independence means looking for greener pastures.

 

I understand that. But I think we're getting on two different pages. When you don't have to rely on someone for financial reasons, you are independent and you are less likely to stay in an abusive relationship. I think we agree on that.

 

But don't you feel like attitudes are changing? Doesn't it seem like if there's one problem in a relationship, it seems like right away someone in the relationship (or both) are suddenly looking for an exit strategy?

 

See, my definition of independence here is more along the lines that women don't have to behave like ladies anymore. They can run from guy to guy and it doesn't matter. I know there's the double standard, but I think in both cases it's disgusting.

 

But the general breakdown of this...where it's ok on both sides as long as the new partners don't find out...

 

Well, let me just say I think I'd prefer a time when running around isn't considered "ladylike."

[fivespot]

Yes but for some, like me, even the thought makes me feel lonely and empty.

 

Me too, and I'm not quite there yet.

 

But I'm starting to see why so many people do this.

[Batya33]

I would say there is not reason to "get there" at all. I am certain that there are people who enjoy having sex - nothing to do with feeling needy, empty or lonely - they enjoy having sex and they do not need to have a relationship with someone to enjoy having sex. Nothing wrong with that between two consenting adults.

[Metallica Lightning]

I swear...

 

Movies like "A Walk to Remember," "The Notebook," and even "High School musical," have damned us men.

[Batya33]

I have no idea what you are talking about linking "independence" to "not behaving like ladies" - if you mean that a "lady" should be submissive at all times and only speak when spoken to, etc just like a person (man or woman) would behave in an abusive situation or where there was an extreme disparity in power then yes I agree that independence helps people -men and women - avoid having to be submissive and never asserting themselves. To me that's not being a lady, that's being powerless/helpless/oppressed.

 

 

To me being a lady means the same as being a person of character and integrity - acting in a manner that is charming and compassionate and honest but of course not letting people walk all over you and not being afraid to be firm/assertive without being needlessly confrontational.

 

Dating different guys doesn't make a woman less of a lady either - it depends how she behaves to these men - just like in any sort of relationship. To me it is not being a lady (the way i referred to it) to marry someone out of needing a financial provider and because you want babies -- without loving/caring about the person outside of what he can do for you. So you would look at a marriage where the woman was married for years and presume that she was acting like a lady? And the woman who refused to settle for a loveless marriage and was dating different people to find a good "love match" was not being a lady?? Makes no sense.

 

And no I don't think that women "run' at the sign of any little problem in a relationship. Indeed I think these days since there is less stigma on marriage counseling, women and men will seek out help before making a drastic decision. In the past those couples may have suffered in silence and slept in separate bedrooms, etc except that to you since they were still "legally married" that would have been an example of stability. I look beyond the legal status when I determine whether there is stability. I don't find it lady-like in the least for a person to stay in a marriage where there is no love/caring or intimacy of any form.

 

It sounds like you're relying on some stereotype of independence in a woman meaning she is loud, bossy, confrontational. There definitely are loud, bossy confrontational men and women. Those are people who perhaps lack social skills, are insecure, or like to misuse or abuse positions of power. That's not what being "independent" means.

 

If you want a quiet, submissive woman who is that way because she needs a man to provide for her there are plenty of women like that around. Just accept the downside with it.

[ghost69]

I meant that you have no factual basis for the sweeping generalization you made about "most American women" which in the very next post became "women under 30."

 

Once again you're entitled to your opinions but to state it as any sort of fact is not only untrue, it's offensive - in my opinion.

 

sorry i really don't have any statistics to give you. just my personal belief and it is based on experience. where are your facts to prove me otherwise?

 

I completely agree ghost, but so have many men.

 

i don't deny this either.

[Batya33]

The point is I wasn't trying to prove you otherwise just wanted you to clarify that what you were stating as fact was just your opinion and that it wasn't based on any particular facts or statistics. I have a different opinion and have no interest in proving to you or to anyone else that it is right (not because I can't - I can easily disprove your sweeping generalization but that would require you to define what precisely you mean by morals and values, which women you include (as far as sexual orientation, marital status, education level, all of the above, etc) since from one post to another you were a moving target), what sort of decline you are referring to, whether these "american women under 30" are citizens or otherwise or born here or otherwise, first generation, etc or all of the above, etc.))

 

When people make sweeping generalizations as you do, even if we wanted to "disprove" we can't because there are so many different variables and subjective definitions. And when they are sweeping generalizations that are negative about an entire group of people it can be harmful to state them as fact (just substitute "African American" for "American women" which may clarify for you how harmful it can be to state those opinions as facts). I think it is just as harmful to make those statements about american women, it just happens to be more acceptable in general than stating opinions like that about African Americans or other minority groups.

 

Thanks again for clarifying that it was your personal opinion based on your personal experiences although it's still unclear what exactly you meant.

[poloplayer]

sorry i really don't have any statistics to give you. just my personal belief and it is based on experience. where are your facts to prove me otherwise?

Well, I don't think that it was a sweeping generalizaion ghost. Unless you live under a rock, you clearly see this in every major metro area of the U.S. Pulling a chick is very, very easy. Pulling a hot chick is easy. Getting laid is pretty easy. That doesn't mean that she is cool, right for you, has anything to offer, etc. Sure there are outliers, but the stereotype fits the mold. I think it's the same with many men as well (not exclusive to women). Being in the under 30 group, I can attest to this and I know many people who would agree, albeit in variations of the strength in their convictions.

 

I find modern day western independence arguments hogwash most of the time. My family survived the holocaust and Nazi captivity - that is independence. Move to a country where there is actual oppresion, living with the fear of imminent death, and then speak about independence. These countries still exist in this modern age. Visit a third world country and volunteer for a year. Relativity can be made as an argument for westerners, but what's the benchmark? Choices and opportunities for higher educations and careers that your parents didn't have (or grandparents)? Advancement in the workforce? How much crap you can accumulate in your life? How hot your other half is? How many karats you can give her? I don't know, but I find those pretty nil given the bigger, global picture when I think independence.

 

Maybe I'm just shooting blanks this morning

[ghost69]

women born in america that are still here. there. most have lost touch with morals.

 

you argued that it is a generalization. at least you didn't call me a liar. you know there is truth behind it.

[ghost69]

i'm not talking about your family history or that you lost touch with morals and family values. i just see a lot of women being gold diggers, going for social status, etc. for all the wrong reasons. they think that makes them happy. it's like living a false life. hey, if that makes you happy, great.

 

but there are so many girls like that that cheat, lie, steal, etc. a good girl these days in america is rare. and yes some women that move to this country too. they get 'americanized' that they can trick men or get whatever they want out of us. that is another thing. we have the highest rate for cheating than just about any other country. divorce rate etc. doesn't that speak for anything?

[Batya33]

I think it was a sweeping generalization to claim that "most american women" lack morals and values (which he then limited to women under 30 with no real reason why and which he then further limited to based on his personal experience)

 

Your post was unclear - not sure what the point was or what it had to do with your point that it's not a generalization to say that most american women under 30 lack morals and values (whatever that means as I wrote above). I am referring to women not "girls" just like you were referring to "men" not boys.

 

I'm also not sure what you mean by "hot chick." My friends and acquaintances (I am talking about over a hundred of those easily and hundreds if you count colleagues, etc) are for the most part women (not girls - they are over eighteen) of character and integrity, they are attractive, bright, educated and successful, the vast majority do at least one form of community service and most do far more (i.e. they not only have strong morals and values they act on them for the good of the community), none of them needs to or wants to go for men based on the man's wealth, etc. I am just like them in that way, always have been and I am American, raised by American parents with very solid values and I continued my own value system as I grew up which I live and act on daily.

 

If a man wants a hot chick meaning the focus would be on her looks and figure then he has to risk that the rest of the package might not be beautiful on the inside particularly if her main focus is her outward appearance.

 

If a man wants to just have s_x that is also a very different focus from looking for a life partner.

 

This whole discussion really is based on vague generalities and terms which is what makes it difficult to even attempt to "debate" (as I wrote above) even if I wanted to which I do not.

 

As far as the divorce rate and cheating I am not sure of your statistics but you also gave no link between a high divorce rate and a lowering of morals and values. Leaving a marriage that is abusive or where the husband is cheating isn't reflective of lower morals and values, is it?

 

I do take offense at your comments about "american girls" but since I don't know any "american girls" over 18 you're not referring to any group I ever heard of.....

[ghost69]

well batya, congratulations. you are part of the good girls and so are your friends. you have morals as you say. congrats on that too. don't take offense. geez.

 

when i say hot chick i don't refer to any specific age. okay, hot woman. there. one that is good looking and can use her looks for getting things. you can phrase it and use all the different linguistics you want. define it how you wish.

 

and refer to the cheating problem in this country in reference to men. pffft, a lot of cheating in this country is done by women too. i'm not saying women are to blame either. don't get me wrong, a lot of men do cheat.

 

like i said earlier, maybe it's dynamics. move to a large city where everyone thinks they are in hollywood. like where i live. you will see a shift.

 

and this discussion is not vague or generalities like you say. it's pretty clear. guess you don't want to believe it or something. we can go round and round with this. but to say my experience and the truth where i live is wrong, open your eyes. this stuff does happen. maybe not where you are. that doesn't make it incorrect though.

 

this discussion started out as being 'what's wrong with men?' i answered the question and then wanted to toss out 'what's wrong with women?' you can point fingers either way. let's not be sexist though.

 

and for the record, not all women in america are bad. call it a generality then. i'm finished with this. i know you want to be right so...

[fivespot]

The point I think ghost is trying to make is that as women have become independent, they've become "liberated" from social values. Like I said, it's not unusual to find a wild and crazy girl at any bar anywhere in the county that's been with 50-100 different guys.

 

But as long as she's ready to settle down and her new bf doesn't find out about her sexual past, then everything's ok.

 

Well, it's NOT ok. This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. And no one is going to change my mind: the independence brought on by different ways of thinking in the 1960s liberated women to almost a level of complete selfishness.

 

She does what's best for her--not what's best for the relationship.

[ghost69]

The point I think ghost is trying to make is that as women have become independent, they've become "liberated" from social values. Like I said, it's not unusual to find a wild and crazy girl at any bar anywhere in the county that's been with 50-100 different guys.

 

But as long as she's ready to settle down and her new bf doesn't find out about her sexual past, then everything's ok.

 

Well, it's NOT ok. This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. And no one is going to change my mind: the independence brought on by different ways of thinking in the 1960s liberated women to almost a level of complete selfishness.

 

She does what's best for her--not what's best for the relationship.

 

finally, somebody else that sees it. ty.

 

i wasn't talking about her sexual past. not concerned with that though. just saying a lot of women just don't care about the good of the relationship. they don't really pay attention to the concept of what a husband and a wife should be. they are more looking at what they can get out of it.

 

again, it can be different where you live, but i see it all the time here.

[ghost69]

something to throw out there.....what is one of the first things a woman asks? 'so what do you do for a living?' what does that have to do with personality? sure eventually you want to know what somebody does for work, but if i said 'i work at mcdonald's' that female would probably walk away or give me the stupidest look like 'mcds? ehh.'

[Batya33]

something to throw out there.....what is one of the first things a woman asks? 'so what do you do for a living?' what does that have to do with personality? sure eventually you want to know what somebody does for work, but if i said 'i work at mcdonald's' that female would probably walk away or give me the stupidest look like 'mcds? ehh.'

 

Again this is based on your personal experience, right? Sometimes I ask people what they do for a living sometimes not - depends on the setting, the context, etc. When I was meeting men for the purpose of dating among other things I cared about was whether he was educated and financially stable. I usually didn't ask what he did for a living because he usually told me whether I was meeting randomly, at a singles event, or whatever. Many men ask me the same question no matter why they're meeting me.

 

What someone does for a living, to me, often has a lot to do with personality, level of ambition, goals, values, etc. If a man told me he worked at mcdonald's and that was his choice for a lifetime job, I would be pretty sure we wouldn't be compatible for dating purposes. I wouldn't walk away or be rude about it of course - nothing wrong with working at mcdonald's - it's good honest work just not a compatible match for me most likely but perhaps we could be friends, all else being equal. People who would react rudely - that's just rude behavior -nothing to do with gender.

 

Or, for example, if a man told me he was wealthy from scamming other people (which happened to me once or twice) I wouldn't date him either and most likely I would want to stop talking with him as soon as I could because that is not the type of person I want to affiliate with - that choice of job does say a lot to me about the person's character.

 

I try my best not to ask what someone does for a living right off the bat - it's a cliche question, it makes some people uncomfortable (maybe they are unemployed, or unhappy with their job, etc) and I find other things far more interesting to learn about a person, like what kind of music or theater he/she likes.

[ghost69]

personal experience? hmm. just something i thought of. i don't work at mcds so this question doesn't bother me. i just thought of it based on this subject. yeah, it is a conversation piece and a habitual question i guess. but i was just putting some different scenario on it.

 

and on the other subject of girls/women losing touch with morals/family values...move to just about any major city and ask the men and even women will tell you it's true. girls/women that live in small towns where they aren't exposed are probably still wholesome and all about family. not what they can get for their benefit at other people's expense.

[fivespot]

girls/women that live in small towns where they aren't exposed are probably still wholesome and all about family.

 

Right, but this is a double edged sword. Heh heh heh I'm totally bored with girls from around my little town.

 

The bigger-city girls are definitely more exciting.

 

But with that comes problems like we've already stated.

[Batya33]

I've lived and was raised from birth in one of the largest cities in the world for 41 years and I completely disagree with you. I will point out that certain small towns have major drug and crime problems on the issue of morals and values. You also are presuming that "girls" can't choose for themselves what values and morals to follow - girls, like people, like women, like men aren't just empty vessels who absorb values and morals. It's a choice for the most part. I happened to have been raised with the best morals and values - I chose to continue living that way but my morals and values were developed through my own experiences and belief systems, not just those of my parents, grandparents, etc.

 

Still not clear what you mean by "wholesome and all about family"- but I understand that's your personal opinion and no, most of the people I know are much more nuanced in how they express opinions than to make a sweeping generalization about all american women (which now I guess is all american women, under 30, living outside "small towns" (whatever that means))

[Dako]

I don't see how the size of a city affects morality at all.

Perhaps we're less aware of the per-capita misbehavior in Brokenwhistle, Idaho than in Manhattan.

I wonder why....

[ghost69]

just like your view is your personal opinion.