so...Will he call this weekend?

[Batya33]

I don't think he lied in the least except maybe about wanting to call her again. I also don't think he was manipulative in what he did and to me it starts to portray women as far too fragile and weak if we can be manipulated by a man who invites us over to hang out and hook up at the last minute with no strings attached whatsoever, and then they both consent to fool around. He didn't promise her a thing - not a relationship, another call (even that last time he didn't promise to call until they spoke again and she asked him when he would call again), or to ask her out on a date. So I don't see where there was any manipulation by him to get her to hang out and hook up with him. Even she posted herself, numerous times, that she completely understood there were no strings attached, that he hadn't asked her out, but that it was her personal choice to see where it went. I am not criticizing her choice but it was her choice despite knowing that up to that point all he wanted to do was hang out and hook up last minute and he cancelled on her last minute one of the three times. She wanted very much to see him - more than she wanted to wait for him to ask her out - and so it was her choice. She only told him what she wanted on this last time and he didn't call again probably because he realized she wanted more than he could or wanted to give at that point.

 

I say, if a woman chooses to go to a man's home late at night last minute who she barely knows, chooses to fool around with him and flirt, and then agrees to that two more times (one time he cancelled) I don't see how he manipulated her into believing he would ask her out and or want a relationship with her.

[tylercdurden2004]

Batya, you have such a clinical, detached way of looking at issues like that. How do you manage to keep it together like that? It seems you are impervious to pain. Not being critical of you. I just am kinda in awe of you.

 

Logic often comes off as being cold. Doesnt mean the emotional part isnt there.

 

Use your heart and your brain.

[Miss M]

To add to my last post (and not as a response to what's been subsequently posted), I also think it's harmful and confusing to tell someone who has been given as many mixed signals as ETC has, that she has not been given mixed signals, or to tell her this guy has been giving her only clear signals (I don't think he has been so clear at all). I think the clearest understanding is accomplished when you recognize not only how you deceive yourself, but also how someone else attempts to deceive you. I've gained the clearest understanding into my own confusion by looking at both sides of the coin, not just my side, so that's also what I suggest to others. But again, I realize/accept that others gain their clarity in other ways.

[Batya33]

That's interesting - I find your advice - that he somehow deceived her (other than the potential lie about calling her) very harmful to a woman who is new again to the dating scene because it promotes a victim mentality and cynicsm if you're going to label someone who invited her over to hang out and hook up a few times and told her he was not keen on getting involved in a relationship, deceitful. I find it much more helpful to focus on personal responsibility and accountability and my input was consistent with what she herself said several times over - that her eyes were wide open to the fact that he might just be looking for something casual but knowing the risks she wanted to proceed anyway (a fine choice - maybe wouldnt' be mine - but given what a great time she was having with him to her the benefits outweighed the risks).

[Miss M]

Yes, so we disagree. If you try to portray an ambivalent and inconsistent man as honest and clear in order to keep a woman from falling into victimhood, I'd say that's going way too far IMO. All along I've encouraged ETC to be boldly honest with herself, so I think it would be clear that I'm not advocating victimhood. But I also see his dishonesty and mixed messages as well, and I feel it would also be self-deceptive for ETC to ignore those. She's certainly accountable to herself for her own dishonesty but I don't agree that it makes her a victim to also look squarely at his. And I think that understanding the other person's part in the confusion is empowering, not victimizing. I understand that your way works for you, but I know it wouldn't help someone like me gain clarity, in fact just the opposite... so yeah, naturally I object to it and disagree with it.

[Batya33]

I don't think he was ambivalent or inconsistent in the least. He consistently called her to come hang out and hook up three times and she enthusiastically accepted three times.

 

He was honestly ambivalent about wanting a relationship - he's allowed to be ambivalent (particularly since they were not in a relationship or even dating yet) and since she was enthusiastic about hanging out with him on his terms there was no way for him to know - until she told him - that she felt uncomfortable with his ambivalence. I think it's fine to be ambivalent (and to me he wasn't ambivalent - he told her clearly that there was only a slim possibility of him wanting a relationship - that's pretty clear that he doesn't) about wanting a relationship with someone you just met and who seems to be fine with hanging out and hooking up.

 

Once she told him she wanted him to ask her out on a date he stopped calling. my guess is when she called him and asked when he was going to call he felt put on the spot but he should have not promised to call.

 

Many many people go on real dates - two and three times- have a great time and on reflection decide that it doesn't have long term potential so they stop calling. Here they never even went out on a date - they hung out, he never promised to see her again - he just promised to call - so I don't see where the inconsistency is or how what he did rises to the level of being a player.

 

I find in the beginning of dating when people are getting to know each other it's easy to misread signals. That's why, unless I am asked out on another date, I assume that I won't be hearing from the person even if we have a great time. Not in a negative sense just in the positive sense of "cool, that was fun and hopefully I'll hear again but if not, life goes on" If I do hear, great but I would never blame a man for "leading me on" by good conversation or kisses during a date that there will be another date unless he asks me for one. Certainly, if a man invited me to hang out at his house last minute I would assume it wasn't a date and if on top of that he told me he wasn't particularly relationship minded that would make perfect sense with his hang out last minute M.O.

 

Interestingly, the OP never said she felt led on until he didn't call. Before that point she insisted she was going in with eyes wide open and was willing to take the risk of the slim possibility of a relationship. I have seen many many threads and conversations mostly by women who consent to hang out and hook up insisting they are cool with it and then call a man a player when he decides he'd prefer not to do so anymore. I think it's a little sad mostly for the women who end up with a negative mindset.

[everythingchanges456]

he will call you later this week i bet.

 

 

wow...you all were busy giving me advice while I was at work, huh! thanks

 

I still have to finish reading up so I will respond as I go.

 

Ghost...why do you say he will call later this week? It's Wednesday night...830pm still no call...I really am surprised seeing the pleasantness (if that's a word!) of our last few conversations.

[everythingchanges456]

I wish I could figure out how the heck that "multi quote" thing works!! Anyway...boy after reading this do I feel like a desperate loser I was anxious and excited to see him and went about it all wrong. In retrospect...I should have held out for the date. I didn't sleep with him so that's good...though we did get heated. Also, he did call me twice the following day after me having the "do you just want a hook up" convo....first thing in the morning to see if i was up as a matter of fact...to me that discounts your theory that he didn't call after that conversation because it was more than he could or wanted to give.

 

Now...after I said that night when he called..."when will I see you agan" THAT I believe is what sent him running (why i don't understand but i am pretty certain that is what did it!)

 

thanks soooo much for your advice I love receiving it. It's so helpful to me to see the different "sides" of the scenario...and opinions from you and MissM....you both speak/write so well and articulate your thoughts well. It's so helpful to me!

[renaissancewoman101]

^ You're not a loser. Don't think that way. Sometimes dates just don't work out. Dating seems so hard and it is hard to have a detached mindset. I never could do that well.

 

At least you're out there and dating. I'm terribly afraid to date because I am afraid of getting hurt, dumped, etc.

[everythingchanges456]

I believe I said somewhere in one of my posts that I felt "played" I am, however, am not calling him a player...but I do feel that he played me so to speak. Although, I, in retrospect, should not have gone to his house and allowed myself to be intimate with him (we did not have sex but kissing...cuddling...rubbing....even without nudity is still intimate enough!). I'm not blaming him for my actions...allowing myself into that scenario out of the HOPE (which is truly why I did it) that it could and would be more may have turned out to be a poor decision...because if we do never speak again...I feel as though I gave him the wrong impression of who I was. My intention, funny enough, was to make a good impression and show him who I was...which certainly is not a woman who "hooks up." If it is over...I still walk away knowing that I am not any more misrepresentation he might have walked away thinking I was. He likely walks away thinking I am a tease. Since situations got very "heated" and then I would grind them to a stop so to speak. Well maybe not grind to a stop but I wouldn't allow it to go further which he openly told me frustrated him but he respects it.

 

Funny, when I was over that last time Friday night...when I got there we stood in the kitchen for a 1/2 hour talking about his week at work...he seemed so excited to tell me. I tried to hug him and he said No (sweetly and laughing but very seriously) we're not going to do that tonight...no "blue b*lls" tonight...we're not doing that...I didn't invite you for that.

 

Later of course...we did go there...but he seemed to always make it sound like it was me bringing it there. He made it like a game, a challenge. Like he was being strong and I couldn't resist. Yes, I am affectionate and love to kiss this man...for him kissing would lead to more...for me kissing and cuddling was all I was after.

 

I DO believe he gave me mixed signals…by calling 9 times…by calling me the following morning. By talking about taking me on his boat (though, thinking about it these date ideas were always in response to my suggestion). He would text “how was your day” “How was work”. He seemed interested. He within 10 minutes of my getting to his house the first night…asked if I had a boyfriend. “What about someone you date?” “See every once in a while?” He really wanted to know. He asked about my upbringing…where I’ve lived…where I went to school…lots of things to try to get to know me. He spoke about relationships and how he thinks they start like this…with attraction but take a long long time to develop and he completely doesn’t understand how people get wrapped up in them so fast and fool themselves.

 

Miss M and Batya...thank you both so much...you both are so giving of your time and thoughtful advice. You both make very good and many valid points.

[renaissancewoman101]

It is amazing how guys can lead a woman on! And you didn't even have sex with him. Some guys are really jerks. Just around to play around with women and then leave them hanging.

 

Dating is scary.

[Batya33]

It is amazing how guys can lead a woman on! And you didn't even have sex with him. Some guys are really jerks. Just around to play around with women and then leave them hanging.

 

Dating is scary.

 

There were two of them, playing around very happily until she decided that she wasn't comfortable with playing around/hanging around at his house and once she told him, he decided he didn't want to play anymore. That's not leaving her hanging - he never promised to see her again. He did say he would call and he didn't but they weren't dating or in a relationship and knew each other two weeks.

 

But, if it is more comfortable for you to feel that way (so that you can validate not getting out there and dating because of all the so-called "jerks"), more power to you.

[renaissancewoman101]

Batya, I was just being facetious.

 

But sometimes, when one is in the midst of the breakup, it is hard to see things rationally. That's why a lot of times when women go through breakups, they like to go and have talk/hang out sessions where they "crucify" their exs and all they did wrong.

[Batya33]

to me, unless a man asks me out on a date he plans in advance, he can call all he wants, say nice things the first time I meet him, send e-mails - but unless we have a date planned I assume he is interested maybe in flirting, being friends, e-mail penpals, but not dating. I don't let a man have the benefit of phone time with me if we've just met (or just "met" on line) unless he asks me out on a date he plans in advance. I have enough friends, have plenty of people to flirt with if I ever was unattached and wanted to flirt harmlessly, lol, and I don't have time for someone who's not going to step up to the plate.

 

I know of men (and women I suppose) who will put a lot of effort into getting the other person to have sex with or fool around with them. Sometimes that effort is mistaken as interest in dating or in a relationship. It's simple for me- if he's not asking for a date, he's not interested in dating. Period. If i proceed (which I have in the distant past) it's at my own risk of getting attached and I have zero expectations that it will lead anywhere.

 

He called a lot that's for sure - but with all those calls, no invitation for a date - that would tell me something (but it might not if, like you I was smitten and if, like you, I'd been out of the dating scene for a long time).

 

I do not think you did anything wrong or acted badly. please please remember that you had so much fun with him (and I don't just mean physically!). I will say that I am surprised you weren't concerned about him forcing himself on you that first time you went to his house - that has happened to me twice with men I didn't know well - neither one raped me but they would not take no for an answer until, with the first guy I asked three times more and more urgently for him to stop (he had my wrists pinned behind my head) and the second time, the guy mercifully passed out (he was wasted). It's very scary and both men were the professional clean cut types.

 

I like the way you are evaluating this other than the negative criticisms of your behavior. Sure, maybe next time you'd do it differently but I hope you stop short of beating yourself up over this. So not the case!

[Batya33]

Batya, I was just being facetious.

 

But sometimes, when one is in the midst of the breakup, it is hard to see things rationally. That's why a lot of times when women go through breakups, they like to go and have talk/hang out sessions where they "crucify" their exs and all they did wrong.

 

OK, didn't understand. I don't see this as a breakup, just a situation where a man she hung out with twice in a week didn't call again. I know it feels to her like a breakup but I think of those very differently.

[everythingchanges456]

There were two of them, playing around very happily until she decided that she wasn't comfortable with playing around/hanging around at his house and once she told him, he decided he didn't want to play anymore. That's not leaving her hanging - he never promised to see her again. He did say he would call and he didn't but they weren't dating or in a relationship and knew each other two weeks.

 

But, if it is more comfortable for you to feel that way (so that you can validate not getting out there and dating because of all the so-called "jerks"), more power to you.

 

I wrote a lot in response to ALL the many posts left while I was gone today...so it'll require a little flipping back a page to see my replies.

 

Actually, he did say that he would take me out...even asked my favorite food then when I didn't have a favorite came up with a unique idea of a place that's about an hour away that he wanted to take me to...he just didn't choose a date.

[Batya33]

I mean a man who makes a specific plan to take you out in advance - time and place (or at least a specific day in advance and he confirms the location later). Nothing less. I too have had men say they want to see me again, take me here, take me there - I am slightly flattered and I think "cool, let's see if he follows through." If he doesn't I never say that he led me on that he would take me out. It's very easy to refer vaguely to plans in the future and shows effort to call or ask for a specific date in advance. also shows he doesn't want someone else to snap you up and wants to make sure he fits into your schedule.

[annie24]

hi - I am just catching up here. Anyways, don't worry about it, if he calls or not. if he doesn't call, well, your heart will hurt for a week or two, but soon he will be a distant memory, and you will move on. And if he calls, great. it's just not worth getting worked up about at this early stage. dating is kind of like going to a dance. sometimes someone asks you to dance and they only dance a few songs with you, and sometimes you wind up dancing the entire night with them. if they leave, doesn't mean that you are a bad dancer or whatnot, maybe they just had to go or you weren't the right partner for them. anyway, don't worry about it, as hard as it is to do. if you feel the urge to worry, go do something else, clean, call a friend, watch a movie, go to the gym. this will pass and you will get your answer, one way or the other.

 

good luck

[annie24]

PS - if he does call, my vote is to not pick up, and then listen to the message (if he leaves one). If he apologizes and leaves a good reason for not calling you when he said he would (like he had to take his sister to the hospital, or his pet to the vet suddenly or had to testify against a mobster and needed to be under careful police protection prior to the trial), then call him back right away. If he doesn't leave an excuse, I would take my time getting back to him while I take care of things more pending (paying my bills, taking out the trash, painting my toenails).

 

just my POV.

[everythingchanges456]

Thanks Everyone uses so many acronyms...some I can figure out...I need to find where the legend is for these things!

 

So...for some reason...I woke up this morning rememebering that after we hung up the phone on Saturday night I text him (it was late lik 10pm) something like "GOD I want you in case you were wondering" I'm embarrassed to even say it but it really was meant to be a playful text based on our mention in the conversation how I'm not easy or something to that effect. Anyway, it was meant to be flirtatious but perhaps between that and asking when I'lll see him again...he sprinted in the other direction.

 

Perhaps he's sitting there waiting for me to call him (doubtful) or perhaps he'll call later this week. I'm really not as disappointed by it as I was a few days ago now that some days have passed but I certainly am still feeling disappointed and wish I knew exactly what he was thinking.

 

The one time he called and I didn't answer...he didn't leave a message. I don't think he would leave a message if I didn't answer. He may hang up and text. I go back and forth as whether or not to answer if he does call and if I do answer I suppose I need to be light and cheery and make no mention of the fact he was rude (for not calling when he said he would).

 

He may not even call.

[Batya33]

I think the ball is in his court because he told you he would call again.

 

Do you think it's ok for him to be thinking that since he hung out with you twice, on reflection he just doesn't click with you enough to want to continue hanging out especially since you want him to take you out on dates? I've gone on two dates with many men where I had a good time but, on reflection in thinking over the evening, just didn't think we were a match, or met someone else the next day, or got a call from someone who was interested in reconnecting, etc etc. After that short a time I didn't think I needed to get in touch with him - typically the "silence" was the answer. Usually I would call back but depending on the reasons, sometimes I wouldn't.

 

What I mean is, it could be very simply "that was fun, but this seems to be heading in a direction that doesn't work for me so I'd better bow out now." Or, perhaps he was talking with an ex and they got back together or one of his buddies on the boating trip told him about a woman he'd like his buddy to meet.

 

you're right, it would be nice to know but I've been in your shoes too many times to count and I just figure that it could be so many reasons it doesn't make sense to analyze unless I did something specifically wrong like sneeze (joking from before).

[itsallgrand]

Sorry it didn't turn out as ya hoped, Everything. Understand the disappointment; but...you did have some good moments and times, ya?

 

And very cool to learn more about you, Batya. The mishaps and such are interesting, especially because you do come accross on board rather reserved.

 

See, this is why I do NOT listen to Sarah and her achingly beautiful voice. She would have me weeping over a scorched muffin. Honestly.

[Batya33]

My lowest point was once listening to Sarah AND IMing with a young relative of mine (15 at the time) about my broken heart (based on no call after the third date - he ended up calling but in hindsight given how it ended 4 months later I wish he hadn't ;-)

 

Yes, reserved in typing, but that's about it ;-)

 

To the OP - on to far greener pastures - of that I am extremely confident!

[Miss M]

Everyone uses so many acronyms...some I can figure out...I need to find where the legend is for these things!

Sorry, I tend to do that without realizing. And don't let us get away with that if we're confusing you.

 

IMO = in my opinion

IMHO = in my humble opinion

BTW = by the way

FWIW = for what it's worth

POV = point of view

LOL/lol = laughing out loud

OP = original poster or original post

IM = Instant message

IMing = Instant messaging

And I've used ETC to shorten your member name (saves typing), but let me know if that's confusing, or if it's not okay to do.

 

Are there others you don't know that were used here?

 

So...for some reason...I woke up this morning rememebering that after we hung up the phone on Saturday night I text him (it was late lik 10pm) something like "GOD I want you in case you were wondering" I'm embarrassed to even say it but it really was meant to be a playful text based on our mention in the conversation how I'm not easy or something to that effect. Anyway, it was meant to be flirtatious but perhaps between that and asking when I'lll see him again...he sprinted in the other direction.

But didn't he seem to be saying he was enjoying your aggressiveness? If so, I would guess that he "sprinted" because you seemed to be saying "God I want you, but you're still gonna have to work for it." It could be the idea of him making an "effort" that was the turn-off.

 

Perhaps he's sitting there waiting for me to call him (doubtful) or perhaps he'll call later this week.

Or he might be thinking, "I might have to let this one go because, although she originally showed a lot of potential, she's no longer staying as smitten as I like. And none of my usual coy-ploys are working on her either. Oh well, if she's not gonna step up to the plate to make me the center of the universe, then I've got plenty of other women who will, and plenty more where they came from too." Of course it's pure speculation, but that's my best guess.

[Batya33]

My guess is he stopped calling because he now knows that you want to date someone with potential for a relationship and he knows he is not that guy. Up until then he rightfully assumed that you were fine with last minute hang out/hook ups at his house or hot tub.