Well… I guess that is that.

[Whirling D]

I think my biggest problem with the relationship was not really her barking, it was this dark cloud overhead that made me wonder if the sky was gonna fall in at any time. I think that was much worse than her often poor demeanor.

I often felt challenged by being pushed to learn a different way of dealing with things.  Maybe we would both learn to grow together that way.

[Tinydance]

Well I don't know you or her of course so I could be wrong...From your posts I actually get the impression that you have a strong personality as well and have strong opinions about how things should be done. I remember some of your previous posts about your ex wife, your daughter and this woman. To me it sounded like you also have some set ways you want things to be done and you're not happy if they aren't. That actually doesn't mean that you're a bad person but it's just simply who you are. People can have very different personalities and as you said, it's not right or wrong. It just is.

I think what is meant by people clash is that they are both either too alike in behaviours or both people want things done their way. So if both people act strongly then neither of them is compromising so they disagree and argue. I think your ex was mentioning your incompatibilities because you actually are incompatible. It seems you wanted to work through that but maybe she didn't. Even though you were trying but a relationship needs to run smoothly and not always trying to work something out.

I also agree that your ex probably has particular expectations about what she wants her partner to be like. It seems pretty clear that she doesn't want someone with long hair but she didn't understand that you just have to accept people as they are. Maybe she also prefers a more submissive man and you obviously aren't. There are some people with a very strong personality who like someone to agree with them a lot. And there actually are people who have a quiet and agreeable personality who might do that. But you aren't like that so she wasn't happy that you were giving your own opinions and standing your own ground.

[Whirling D]

You know, it really makes me profoundly sad to think that the doctor lady is probably sitting at home right now with a completely broken heart, feeling alone and lonely, despite the fact that it was her that put this into motion.

there is the theory that the person that does the breaking up can often feel a sense of relief after they do it, because it takes away a lot of the confusion that they were feeling, but that could only last for a short while.

given that she was crying when I left her yesterday, it wouldn’t surprise me that she’s feeling a huge amount of remorse that she broke my heart like that. As she probably should, but I don’t feel angry about it, because I know she was doing whatever she felt was the right thing to do for herself. However shortsighted that might have been.

The last thing I want her to feel is sad.

I wonder if she is even really thinking about how I am doing. I do get the impression she is often out of sight out of mind kind of person.

[Whirling D]

4 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Well I don't know you or her of course so I could be wrong...From your posts I actually get the impression that you have a strong personality as well and have strong opinions about how things should be done. I remember some of your previous posts about your ex wife, your daughter and this woman. To me it sounded like you also have some set ways you want things to be done and you're not happy if they aren't. That actually doesn't mean that you're a bad person but it's just simply who you are. People can have very different personalities and as you said, it's not right or wrong. It just is.

I think what is meant by people clash is that they are both either too alike in behaviours or both people want things done their way. So if both people act strongly then neither of them is compromising so they disagree and argue. I think your ex was mentioning your incompatibilities because you actually are incompatible. It seems you wanted to work through that but maybe she didn't. Even though you were trying but a relationship needs to run smoothly and not always trying to work something out.

I also agree that your ex probably has particular expectations about what she wants her partner to be like. It seems pretty clear that she doesn't want someone with long hair but she didn't understand that you just have to accept people as they are. Maybe she also prefers a more submissive man and you obviously aren't. There are some people with a very strong personality who like someone to agree with them a lot. And there actually are people who have a quiet and agreeable personality who might do that. But you aren't like that so she wasn't happy that you were giving your own opinions and standing your own ground.

Interesting thoughts… Thank you.

Conversely, she was constantly asking me opinions on how to do things, and if I would help her do things that she couldn’t take on… She was quite bright in that way, able to do fairly complex projects, but she would avoid doing so unless she absolutely had to, because her confidence doing more complicated physical tasks sometimes suffered.

I don’t FEEL like I expect things to be done a certain way… I usually like to work as a team, where both people toss out ideas, and whichever one seems to make the most sense, we go with.

The doctor lady and I actually worked really well on multiple projects in just that way. We worked hand-in-hand, and we both tossed ideas and thoughts into the fray, and neither one of us had a big problem accepting the others idea, if it makes sense.

that’s why I kind of wonder if a lot of her problem comes from her medication. That would certainly explain her onset of moodiness and cantankerousness.

I literally saw absolutely no evidence of that kind of thing right up until about the time she told me she changed her medication dosage, and that would have been after knowing her for at least two months.  
 

I feel it is strongly likely that I would have picked up on some evidence of that kind of thing, prior to her telling me about her medication.

[LootieTootie]

Hi WD,

I am sorry about the breakup. I do think there was too much incompatibilities. I know it's hard to do but try not to ruminate on the what ifs. She was completely honest with you while she wanted to break up "getting on each other nerves, living too far, can't go on expensive vacations together" - I think she always had these doubts and the longer you both stayed together, the harder it was for her to ignore.

The 3 things she mentioned: 1) personality clashes, 2) distance and 3) economic social statuses, are things you learn about the other person when you first date them. Unfortunately, I think you both held on too long hoping things will solve itself even tho the writing was on the wall.

I would just respect her wishes for a break up and not question her judgment... questioning her judgement can be insulting in itself and you don't want her to think that or take it that way. 

[MissCanuck]

You may hear from her again, but I don't think a reconciliation will be in the cards. If she reaches out, my guess is that it will be to make sure you are okay and the usual things dumpers do to soothe their own guilt. Not to try to get back together. 

This break-up was not out of the blue. It was a culmination of many doubts, friction between the two of you, and increasingly-obvious incompatibilities. It might have felt out of the blue in the moment it happened, but most of us who read your other threads predicted this outcome, and for good reason: you and she are mismatched on several significant levels. 

 

 

[kehratha]

Whirl, I am really sorry it didn't work out for you two.

I think you are the classical case of bringing out the worst from each other, that's why you are always getting on each other nerves.

Even if she reaches out and I find that very likely, giving the type of people you both are, even a reconciliation is very likely possible, it will be not sustainable for long term. You are too mature to change and incompatibilities are too many and I don't think you are able to overcome them.

Sometimes willing is just not enough...

Hang on there💪

[Deadtoyouforever74]

Sounds like she really loves you. But you have disappointed her somehow.  Maybe you hurt her or betrayed her?

Love is always enough. 

Do you really love her though is she worth it?

Only you can decide that? Trust in yourself. 

[Whirling D]

12 minutes ago, Deadtoyouforever74 said:

Sounds like she really loves you. But you have disappointed her somehow.  Maybe you hurt her or betrayed her?

Love is always enough. 

Do you really love her though is she worth it?

Only you can decide that? Trust in yourself. 

I do love her, and the term “incompatibility” just seems to make me shake my head a bit.

We have so much in common, as well, which I think comes down to the way we think about things. I think it’s really mental health that has gotten in the way here. But I guess that’s an incompatibility? I don’t know. I just don’t get it, really.

Truth be told, there were times when we got together that her demeanor was so negative and domineering that I thought to myself, “would I really be able to sustain myself in this kind of situation over time?“ It’s hard to say, because she was all over the place.

I don’t want to give you guys the impression that we fought all the time. We really didn’t. At all.  Those particular instances are really the only times that we really had quantifiable disagreements.  That’s why it’s really so surprising that her ending it came quite a bit out of the blue.  She always said that she needs a lot of downtime, being a similar introvert, and I thought she was just busy and taking her own space.

We would talk on the phone for hours and be completely in sync in so many ways. We just seem to speak a similar language, in that regard.

I have to kind of feel that it was our “big talk“ in the car that night the kind of did things in. I think it may have freaked her out. I was fairly triggered, and the conversation lasted most of the hour ride home. I was fairly determined to make my point clear… I could not sustain a relationship that was filled with stress and anxiety. I don’t remember a lot of what I said, but she knew I was talking about her behavior.

A lot of what I said, was meant to be proactive and positive, but later, she said that she felt like she was being attacked by the conversation, and I think I could see how that might feel for her. Another person hearing what I was saying might have not taken it quite so targeted, because it was meant as much to encourage change as it was to bark at her. I don’t think I really raised my voice or spoke in a demeaning fashion. But I guess when you say something to someone that draws strong attention to something that is not favorable, it will probably be taken as demeaning. 

Does it stand to reason that people have the right to behave the way that they naturally do, within limitations? It’s not like she was cursing and swearing at everybody that walked by, or giving me a hard time about everything I did.

She just has a very dark personality when she goes about her day-to-day duties. She has a very negative perception of a lot of things, and it comes out a lot of the times. That was hard for me.

But then it would just turn off when she was in a different space, and she was lovely.

She was talking about the wedding when I was up there, and she was fairly upset about something that happened at the wedding that involved her niece’s stepdad and the father/daughter dance. She was getting quite worked up about it, and her conversation was relatively hostile. It wasn’t aimed at me, but I can’t really relate to getting hostile and upset about stuff like that. It’s just a different way of articulating what you’re thinking and feeling. If you were around to watch All in the Family, it felt a little bit like Archie Bunker and Edith. Archie Bunker conveyed things with a tone of hostility in most situations, while Edith just had a very soft demeanor. That’s an exaggeration, but it’s a fair comparison.

The question is, could I have learned to navigate the Archie-like demeanor that she usually put forth? I believe that it may have been worth it, but I think it was way too soon to make that call, because we had three fabulous months, and then, because of a lot of logistics, we just weren’t able to see each other very much. When we did see each other, I thought it was great. I thought the first hour and a bit that I spent up there the other day, making a beautiful meal, helping her with things, I thought it was really nice. I thought we were headed back to a nice place. It was like having to get to know her all over again.

I had said that to her before that, sometimes when I hadn’t seen her for a while, it was like having to get to know her all over again. She seemed to agree.

This last month was almost entirely logistics, other than the fact that I do have every Monday and Thursday without my kid during the week, and she just didn’t seem to want to entertain the idea of me coming up there, although I constantly told her I would. I stopped asking. I waited for invitations, and most of the time she would get home late on those nights, at like 7 PM, and she’d be in bed by 9 PM, so the thought of me going up there didn’t really surface. I understood, but only because I figured things would continue to progress. Had I thought it was going to be problematic, I would’ve been a little bit more determined to make suggestions. 

Well, I think I burned her out during our big talk. And also burned her out by being determined to make up my own mind in the two or three situations that I’ve already described.

She’s a tough lady in that regard, and thinks in a fairly rigid and inside the box kind of way. I thought we were kind of getting used to the ways each other managed things like that, but clearly not. I was hoping we would come to a plateau in those regards and realize that we both love each other deeply, but just have a different way of managing those emotions… I’m sure there are many people that figure out strategies to deal with that kind of thing. I think she kind of chickened out. Just lost attraction. I guess if she is disorganized avoidant like she said she was, she fits the profile like a glove. 

A lot of the more recent disorganized-avoidant attachment theory describes a lot of what I am talking about here.  In some countries they call it fearful avoidant, but I’ve heard some clinicians say those two terms are different.
 

Because of the way DA folks grew up in a chaotic environment, their brains are often wired to not trust people and not trust that people will be there to support their needs in difficult times. They’ve had to fend for themselves to get their needs met. They often become very independent and distrusting of others in their circle, and often become introverted and somewhat disenfranchised from society. That describes the doctor lady pretty closely. She even brought to me that she thought that she was DA.  

according to theory, all attachment style people really want closeness, and when they feel vulnerable, they crave closeness, in some cases almost in an addictive fashion. I could see that with her. When we got close, she would cling to me like glue paper. in most occasions, I thought that was really nice, because I have some of that characteristic as well, but there were other times it seemed really odd, that she just wanted to hold me tight and not let me go, almost as if she had never felt that kind of  connection. That may be part of what I will miss most. It’s hard for me to imagine how she would just let something like that go without a fight. 

She needs and wants intimacy, just like I do. I remember a couple of times in June and July when I was up at her beach house, and she would just come over and lie across my lap and lay there in my arms for about 20 minutes. I don’t think I’ve had anybody that was willing to do that before, and in many ways it was lovely. 

Somehow, as things became more complicated, that seemed to fade away, somewhat, but I do think that she basically talked herself out of it. Somehow, I don’t think she could sustain the emotional trust with me. But I think that was a lot in her head. I think she kind of willed her self away from that kind of trust.  If I needed to, I could probably have argued through each of her points as to why she felt she needed to end things. Each of her points would have likely had viable alternatives and viewpoints, but part of me didn’t feel the desire to do that the other day. If she doesn’t wanna be with me, I’m not going to argue with her about it. I think I was also just going by the script that many therapists suggest… Respect yourself, respect her decision, and allow time to determine what will happen next. 

Some of that theory suggests that people with DA could very easily start to realize that they really do need and want you, and their thinking could start to turn around with time. That happens with me within relationships, and I even felt that kind of up-and-down thinking at the doctor lady. Sometimes I liked her, sometimes I wasn’t sure. It’s been like that with every woman I have ever dated.

I’m a little confused as to what I think I would feel should she start to turn her self around.  It is said that once you bond with someone, it is not an easy transition to just break that bond, given that humans are wired for connection. She doesn’t connect easily with people, and neither do I, which is why I would not have thought that she would give up on us so quickly. Bonding for people like us does not come and go easily. 

Anyway, clearly, I could go on and on about it.  I guess I’m going to be looking for answers for a long time.

 

[Deadtoyouforever74]

Sounds like you are a very educated man. You would be a man after my own heart. I tend to stay away from people who have mental issues.  I do have add. So I'm stuck with that. I'm clingy sometimes.  We crave intimacy yes because we are women.  I  love to lay on my man's lap but darn you have to have some breathing room. 

Why did she drop you cold turkey? It doesn't make sense.  She's scared to trust her heart to you,  is what it sounds like  because someone has broken her.

Are you willing to fix it?

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I also agree that your ex probably has particular expectations about what she wants her partner to be like. It seems pretty clear that she doesn't want someone with long hair but she didn't understand that you just have to accept people as they are. Maybe she also prefers a more submissive man and you obviously aren't. There are some people with a very strong personality who like someone to agree with them a lot. And there actually are people who have a quiet and agreeable personality who might do that. But you aren't like that so she wasn't happy that you were giving your own opinions and standing your own ground.

I think the checklist was more important to her than to you as far as long term potential while you are more ethereal/abstract about it so if there is chemistry/passion/loving feelings/loving actions it's like "ok that's all that matters so can't we just get along??"  You can -short term- with a person who also wants what's on her checklist (I did for sure but my checklist was fairly short, specific and I didn't try to date someone who didn't fit that part -she did however hence the dark cloud you felt -that was her being hesitant/doubting in part and in part your self-esteem issues you said you had). 

Yes I think she will contact you especially these days it's so easy. If she does I'd not read into it.  At all.

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, Whirling D said:

You know, it really makes me profoundly sad to think that the doctor lady is probably sitting at home right now with a completely broken heart, feeling alone and lonely, despite the fact that it was her that put this into motion.

there is the theory that the person that does the breaking up can often feel a sense of relief after they do it, because it takes away a lot of the confusion that they were feeling, but that could only last for a short while.

given that she was crying when I left her yesterday, it wouldn’t surprise me that she’s feeling a huge amount of remorse that she broke my heart like that. As she probably should, but I don’t feel angry about it, because I know she was doing whatever she felt was the right thing to do for herself. However shortsighted that might have been.

The last thing I want her to feel is sad.

I wonder if she is even really thinking about how I am doing. I do get the impression she is often out of sight out of mind kind of person.

I felt that way when I cancelled my wedding in 1997 to my now husband and I wanted him back within a month -thank goodness he said no "It would be really romantic for awhile but then the same thing would happen."  He was correct 100%. Just because someone might feel "broken hearted" doesn't mean you reconcile.  We wouldn't be married now if we'd tried again -I'm very sure of that.

You speak of multiple projects -you two played house a lot in the relatively short time you dated and even shorter time you were exclusive -she was still shopping around for quite awhile yes? Mostly that's not really relevant -the projects had to do mostly with her home -she used you as unpaid labor for future rentals you had no part in or compensation from -and you stepped up as The Boyfriend when her mom was ill (yes yes even an acquaintance likely would have done the same in such a time of need) but she seemed to expect this of you.... however you weren't worthy of meeting her family at a wedding. 

Yes she could have made it happen financially -she was honest with you that she didn't want to be seen as a couple with you but it's fine for you to be scrubbing her deck. It's on her that she ignored what she was really looking for in order to play house and have fun and companionship.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

his last month was almost entirely logistics, other than the fact that I do have every Monday and Thursday without my kid during the week, and she just didn’t seem to want to entertain the idea of me coming up there, although I constantly told her I would. I stopped asking. I waited for invitations, and most of the time she would get home late on those nights, at like 7 PM, and she’d be in bed by 9 PM, so the thought of me going up there didn’t really surface. I understood, but only because I figured things would continue to progress. Had I thought it was going to be problematic, I would’ve been a little bit more determined to make suggestions. 

Not logistics and not mental health. Both of you could have seen each other more.  She would have told you if it was her mental health because if she really wanted to be with you she'd have told you so and  told you to please be patient/what she was doing to make things better within herself.  Now obviously that might not have worked but she would have led with wanting to be with you. 

I don't think the breakup was impulsive at all in the sense you feel it was -as somene else wrote-maybe Miss Canuck? I agree.

[Whirling D]

19 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Not logistics and not mental health. Both of you could have seen each other more.  She would have told you if it was her mental health because if she really wanted to be with you she'd have told you so and  told you to please be patient/what she was doing to make things better within herself.  Now obviously that might not have worked but she would have led with wanting to be with you. 

I don't think the breakup was impulsive at all in the sense you feel it was -as somene else wrote-maybe Miss Canuck? I agree.

Bat, thank you. Your postings are so poignant and thoughtful. I have no idea how you can manage the time to write as much as you do on here. I appreciate that.

I guess I should define what I mean by mental health… During the night that she sobbed uncontrollably in bed, she said she has been miserable for years. She said she thought she had done everything that she was taught was expected of her, and she still could not find happiness.

That was exacerbated by partnering with three different men that she described as being emotionally unavailable and at times verbally abusive.

When I noticed her behavior start to change, and it was quite sudden, I don’t remember how it came up, but she described how she was trying to wean herself off of Prozac. She said it was messing with her head.

She had become aloof, admittedly, depressive, also told me that she had depressive episodes for years, which is why she had been on Prozac for years, and occasionally snappy.

I can relate to a lot of that, because I suffer from a lot of the same problems. Although, I seem to manifest the symptoms differently. I also get hugely depressive, like I am now, really, but I don’t really get outwardly snappy as much. Coffee will do that to me, but not so much depressive episodes. Although, I have no idea how I would be if I had somebody around me a lot while I was like this.

So, when I say that I think mental health may factor into this is likely coming from two angles… One is that her behavior, and the fact could definitely have been swayed by her mental health, and the effects of her changing medication, dosages, and second, it could be possible that her withdrawal from me was a result of depressive episodes, and thinking, much of what I can relate to. 

That’s a stretch, but it’s plausible. My psychologist friend, who isn’t a psychiatrist, pretty much spelled out his thoughts on it right from when I describe what had happened.

I hadn’t told him much about our history, or even her mental health history, but right away he said, it sounded like some sort of mental health debacle.

I think she knew that her long term list shouldn’t have had priority over how she felt about someone, or how they treated her, and that’s part of what she was struggling with. After all, does one, really pick a partner based on whether they are going to be able to accompany them on expensive trips? I guess some might. I had never said to her that I would never be able to go on trips. I may not be able to go on ones that were worth $10,000, but what I did say to her is that I could foresee, much better vacations happening, since when I partner with someone, I will be splitting most of my expenses, which would likely leave more asset to do a good trip once a year, or so. Maybe more if I’m fully retired. That seemed to satisfy that confusion 

There would be one easy fix to that financial situation. I would have probably mentioned that before, and I think I did talk a little bit about this… If she would ever have considered moving into my house, she would have saved thousands of dollars in mortgages, taxes, and other expenses. How much would that leave for expensive vacations? Tons. Her commute to work would have been the same.

But somehow, I think my house represented things to her that she couldn’t manage… It’s an older beat up house. Doesn’t represent status. Probably had more germs and bugs, but she can’t handle. She has so many hangups that she just can’t manage. I guess that’s an incompatibility right there, right?

I was impressed the day I was talking with her about my house when she was down here the only time to stay over. If you recall, she said she could never live in my house, but said she needed time and patience to work her way into feeling comfortable there. I felt a little bit of victory there, and was willing to be patient, knowing how absolutely awesome it is here on my property, if you have any connections to nature. I was out there, looking around the other day and marveling how awesome it is, and how it’s almost unimaginable that anyone on the planet would not be able to see the beauty in being there.  I still believe she may have eventually “got it” as to why I enjoyed being there, and maybe even valued some of that herself. Likely will never know. 

So, Bat, tell me again why you broke off your wedding back then? What was it that made you pull the plug? What made you think a month and a half later that maybe you had made a mistake? I’d be interested in hearing that story again. I’m sure you already told it… ☹️

[Whirling D]

3 hours ago, Deadtoyouforever74 said:

Sounds like she really loves you. But you have disappointed her somehow.  Maybe you hurt her or betrayed her?

Love is always enough. 

Do you really love her though is she worth it?

Only you can decide that? Trust in yourself. 

Thank you for your nice post, DTYF.
 

I do think she loves me. That was always part of the problem. She loved me, but couldn’t reconcile my somewhat nontraditional presentation and philosophies.

At the risk of seeming a little bold, I don’t think she had ever spent any time with someone like me. I think she said that early on. Not just from my visual presentation, which I don’t think is that far outside the box, but that’s debatable… My hair is long… So what? But, she was having a hard time fully grasping some opinions I had, on interactions that we had experienced… Like, why it would probably be better to try to let go of her need to control how I drove her car.  

Over the years, I have spent a lot of time trying to understand that it is more of a ME problem if somebody else is doing something that might irritate me that they have a full right to be able to do. 

Here’s another example, just for my own personal validation… There were times that people would do something that would get on my nerves… And I was too shy to often say something about it. Eventually, I came to realize, that it was a me problem. that person had every right to be able to do whatever it was that they were doing, if they had a valid reason for doing it, and just because it annoyed me, it shouldn’t be a reason for me to invade their right to be able to engage in the activity that they felt was necessary. It feels selfish for me to think that I should speak up when someone is doing some thing that is annoying to me,  because I have every right to make another choice. Ignore the behavior and try to concentrate on something else. That would cause me a little bit of discomfort, but it would respect the rights of the other person to do what they see fit.  I have found that to be a very proactive and liberating choice. It has allowed me to let go of a lot of things that might irritate me that somebody could be doing. It shifts the focus from my discomfort to their needs a value that theory.

That’s a fairly complicated change for someone to have to make. But I feel that it is empathic. It allows others to be who they are, without trying to assert our Will into their actions.

But then, again, I wasn’t really that great at doing that with her. I asserted my will towards her, when I expected her to allow me to clean her deck whichever way I felt was best, or drive her car in which way I felt was best. So, it’s a slippery slope.

I wanted so much for that lady to respect me and care for me, which might be one of the reasons that I held onto those philosophies so tightly, and tried to “teach“ her new and different ways of thinking about things. I think that was a greater part of my downfall, as well. I tried so hard to be a mentor to her, if you will, and I think that she appreciated that up to a point. But when it began to infringe on her right to be who she is… Which is often cranky and demanding, I think that’s where things fell through. 

Similarly to my marriage, and with the doctor lady, I couldn’t allow them to be who they were without trying to change them. The only way it could have worked with the doctor lady is if I had allowed her to be who she is and not try to change her behavior, the same way, I was hoping she would allow me to be who I was, and not change me, while I drove her car, and while I cleaned her deck. So, I guess it could be said I wasn’t practicing what I preached. 

But then, again, it could be said that it’s a little different to bark at someone because they aren’t paying attention to how fast they are going, and to be disillusioned by somebody when they do bark at you for stuff that really doesn’t have much relevance in the greater scheme of things. I think the weight of those two disagreements are vastly different. 

I digress.

[Seraphim]

Sorry to hear about that. 

[Batya33]

"So, Bat, tell me again why you broke off your wedding back then? What was it that made you pull the plug? What made you think a month and a half later that maybe you had made a mistake? I’d be interested in hearing that story again. I’m sure you already told it… ☹️"

I had panicky, core shaking doubts -I even felt that way at a really popular bridal gown place I went to with my mom and future MIL (like Carrie did sort of in SATC when she was with Miranda and broke out in a rash trying on a wedding gown).  In hindsight I think I didn't find him enough of a confident, strong person - too passive/doormat-like.  Which messed with the chemistry etc but I absolutely didn't feel sure about marrying him. 

It was awful because we had set the date, we got engaged and then quickly set a date for 4 months from then, we'd move in together and signed a lease, my bridesmaids had purchased or almost purchased their dresses, we received gifts already and the shower was being planned.  It was a rollercoaster and I know of several brides who went through with it in those circumstances.  Mostly it worked out badly.  

Two days after we ended it -which was a month I think after we decided to take space from each other and then decide what to do about the wedding - I left the engagement ring in our shared apartment although I believe I was still staying there -alone - for another week?.  I then went out with girlfriends in the city and - random coincidence -ran into him on  the commuter train back because -he was out celebrating his bday.  I chased him through the train in heels.  I thought he'd seen me and was ignoring me -like a movie scene - he hadn't seen me.  We then decided to go back to our apartment and talk which we did for hours.  No romance! He left and then about a week later I realized I missed him a lot and told him so.  We agreed to meet in a few weeks to talk again. 

When we did at a restaurant he kindly told me - yes he wishes we could be together but -like I said - he knew it would be initially awesome/romantic then crash again.  He was right.  I cried a little at the dinner and he felt badly.

(He proposed with the same ring 11 years later.  I love my ring so much.  And him.  We both changed a lot in the 7-8 years apart and enough so then we were right together).

[Whirling D]

7 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

"So, Bat, tell me again why you broke off your wedding back then? What was it that made you pull the plug? What made you think a month and a half later that maybe you had made a mistake? I’d be interested in hearing that story again. I’m sure you already told it… ☹️"

I had panicky, core shaking doubts -I even felt that way at a really popular bridal gown place I went to with my mom and future MIL (like Carrie did sort of in SATC when she was with Miranda and broke out in a rash trying on a wedding gown).  In hindsight I think I didn't find him enough of a confident, strong person - too passive/doormat-like.  Which messed with the chemistry etc but I absolutely didn't feel sure about marrying him. 

It was awful because we had set the date, we got engaged and then quickly set a date for 4 months from then, we'd move in together and signed a lease, my bridesmaids had purchased or almost purchased their dresses, we received gifts already and the shower was being planned.  It was a rollercoaster and I know of several brides who went through with it in those circumstances.  Mostly it worked out badly.  

Two days after we ended it -which was a month I think after we decided to take space from each other and then decide what to do about the wedding - I left the engagement ring in our shared apartment although I believe I was still staying there -alone - for another week?.  I then went out with girlfriends in the city and - random coincidence -ran into him on  the commuter train back because -he was out celebrating his bday.  I chased him through the train in heels.  I thought he'd seen me and was ignoring me -like a movie scene - he hadn't seen me.  We then decided to go back to our apartment and talk which we did for hours.  No romance! He left and then about a week later I realized I missed him a lot and told him so.  We agreed to meet in a few weeks to talk again. 

When we did at a restaurant he kindly told me - yes he wishes we could be together but -like I said - he knew it would be initially awesome/romantic then crash again.  He was right.  I cried a little at the dinner and he felt badly.

(He proposed with the same ring 11 years later.  I love my ring so much.  And him.  We both changed a lot in the 7-8 years apart and enough so then we were right together).

Thank you, that is a heartwarming story.  If you know what I mean… 🙂
 

What do you believe changed in the years in between, that left you feeling more confident that you could make things work?

[catfeeder]

16 hours ago, Whirling D said:

… that gesture at that particular time made me think… Did she really plan to break up with me yesterday? Or did it just come out impulsively? 

That’s a reasonable question. In the gap between the great meal and visit and thoughtful gifts and your apparent receptivity to the hair style picture all going well, what house tasks, exactly, did she ask you to do, and was there any disagreement there, or a possible instance of having done it in a way that irritated her?

Not saying that a breakup would have been a reasonable response to such a thing, only that her exactness around her home and her car sounds like one giant field of land mines that continually blew up for her.

She’d lay down the traps, you’d unknowingly trip those wires, and even when she didn’t launch specific fights, she’d turn frosty and hostile.

So the only one who can make an experiential guess as to whether that may have been the case this time would be you. What are your thoughts?

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, Whirling D said:

Thank you, that is a heartwarming story.  If you know what I mean… 🙂
 

What do you believe changed in the years in between, that left you feeling more confident that you could make things work?

I wasn't just more confident -I was sure.  As sure as a human being could be.  We'd both grown.  He followed his dream career which was related to his prior career and was doing really well in it and had been for years - total confidence builder I think.  He was always "fine" about his career confidence wise but wasn't thrilled - but when it comes to confidence to me  it's a whole different thing when you courageously pursue a highly competitive and intense path because it's a dream and a passion.  Also he'd had two long term girlfriends in the years between and he'd been sort of a late bloomer so I think that helped.  We were in our late 30s and to me he was just far more confident/self-assured and - just - changed in that way.  I think I  had had more than my fill of excitement fueled by unavailable men (not married men - just -cold/not that into me, etc) and was ready to feel excited and into a man who was there with open arms/available/ready for marriage and parenthood. 

And part of it -unexplainable -I never thought in a million years sparks would fly and keep flying when we met up again for a platonic catch up dinner. 

What also helped was really limited contact in those years - a few emails a year and yes one quick dinner 1.5 years earlier.  We'd had more emails the year prior to meeting up because a very close friend had passed away so young and I'd emailed my ex since he knew her and his friend had even dated her.  We shared some memories of her over email.  Had we stayed friends/in close touch we'd have risked sharing too much about dating, etc or getting attached too soon, etc.  IMO.

[Whirling D]

7 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

That’s a reasonable question. In the gap between the great meal and visit and thoughtful gifts and your apparent receptivity to the hair style picture all going well, what house tasks, exactly, did she ask you to do, and was there any disagreement there, or a possible instance of having done it in a way that irritated her?

Not saying that a breakup would have been a reasonable response to such a thing, only that her exactness around her home and her car sounds like one giant field of land mines that continually blew up for her.

She’d lay down the traps, you’d unknowingly trip those wires, and even when she didn’t launch specific fights, she’d turn frosty and hostile.

So the only one who can make an experiential guess as to whether that may have been the case this time would be you. What are your thoughts?

Thank you, cat, for the support, and the questions…

Yes, I guess you could look at it that way. Land mines.

I keep going over and over in my head how a break up talk came out of the time I spent over there the other day. As many of you have said, this couldn’t have been something that was just impulsive.

as far as me helping her around the house that day…

I asked her if there were any tasks I could help her with around the house while I was there, and at first she said no, but after we ate, she did remember that she had a fire detector that needed to be connected that she couldn’t reach easily, and it took me a few minutes to climb up on the step ladder that she went to get for me. There was nothing really odd about our interaction. She did make some suggestions, and I did what I could. 

I took a look at a couple of other small things, but there was nothing out of the ordinary. There was no conflict at all.  
 

when I was making dinner, which was a nice ravioli, with two different kinds of sauce, marinara for me and Alfredo for her, she looked at the package and said that the manufacturer said to scoop them out after they had been floating for three minutes. I responded by saying that I usually do them for 15 minutes because I like them to be much softer. That might be the kind of thing that she could find annoying, but she didn’t. 

As we ate, I asked her how she like the ravioli, and she said they were excellent. Then I asked her if she thought they were too soft, and if they had been done too long, and she said no, they were great. So, that would be the kind of conversation that I might normally be wary of, but it went just fine. I think I overreacted a lot of the times, expecting, she might be annoyed by something that I wouldn’t be doing, like not following package directions. 

I think the picture of the hairstyle may have come as we were cleaning up the kitchen after our meal. I liked the hairstyle, but I jokingly pointed out that the fellow in the picture had a lot more hair on top than I do… I tried to make light of it.

I had even said that I was considering having her take three or 4 inches off while I was there that day, and she basically talked me out of it, saying that I should shouldn’t change just because I think other people want that from me. She was right.

Then she added, when you go to your nieces wedding next weekend. If you feel self-conscious about it, you could just put your hair in a ponytail or something.

So there was zero contention about that as well.

It does strike me a peculiar that she would be talking to be about my hair styles and show me a picture of something I might like, and then, 15 minutes later, maybe less, she tells me she needs to end it.

There is part of me that thinks that she thought I might not react the way I did to her telling me she was ending it.  I think that she may have believed that I was going to say, “oh, that’s OK, I was kind of feeling a lot of the same things. Maybe we can just be friends?” There is a strong chance she was thinking that’s how I was going to respond. Possible?

I am still completely disabled from this ending. I can’t think straight. I’m not sleeping well. I was awake at 3:30 AM this morning. I’m not eating. I just can’t fathom how someone that I felt so connected with fell so hard so quickly.

I just talked with my therapist, and she seems to think there’s been a lot of progress in the way I’ve handled things under the circumstance. There’s no answer as to what to do and where to go. Last week she did say she didn’t think it would hurt if I reached out to her again, just to make sure that her mind hadn’t changed, but this week she kind of backpedaled on that. She seem to like the theory of the online therapists that said that this is her mess to clean up. If she ever decides she needs to clean it up. 

Part of me really hopes I hear from her over the next few months. The good part of her I love so deeply. Maybe it’s codependency. Maybe it’s a trauma bond. I couldn’t say. Things just really felt perfect when she was in a good space and I was as well. 

I also looked forward to challenging a lot of my preconceived behaviors and ways of doing things in order to make things go more smoothly between her and I. I so wish I had the chance to tell her that I wished I hadn’t had that “big“ conversation with her in the car. I so wish I would’ve presented what I was feeling differently and less judgy.  Maybe someday I’ll have a chance to tell her that, but I’m not betting on it.  
 
I remember the girl that I dated for seven months last year. I knew it wasn’t the right match for me early on, but I tried hard to make it work. She eventually could sense that it wasn’t the right match for me and broke it off. She did contact me for several days afterward, in an attempt to likely see if she had done the right thing. I didn’t really give her anything to go on, and I let her go. I haven’t spoken with her since, even though I do miss her, but only as a friend.  maybe that’s how the doctor lady feels for me. 

Although, it could be said that I think the doctor lady and I had so much more in common, even just in as much as our basic belief system, and way we communicated. My last lady friend had very different beliefs, and I often had a hard time reconciling that.

I guess it could be said that the doctor lady’s beliefs are what made her separate… She wants a better life than I could probably offer. She doesn’t want to be bickering all the time, even though she says it’s been that way with everyone that she’s been with.

My heart just aches right now, and I long for that connection again, and don’t feel it coming anytime soon.

but then again, all it took was one like from her on a dating site to open up that whole avenue of connection. I should also add. She was the only one that liked my profile and almost the entire year. I was single this last time around.  
 

I can’t even look at online dating profiles right now. I just don’t see the happiness in the faces of the ladies who are on there. I miss that. 

 

[Batya33]

She's a doctor -can't she afford to hire handymen -why were you going there with asking if you could help fix things/etc? When my future husband and I were long distance that sort of stuff was never on the agenda - and he had access to a full toolbox and was handy.  I did expect him to put together the crib when  I was recovering in the hospital (which he did -with friends).

To me it sounds like you were trying to prove to her how useful you were to her as sort of a househusband type? It's "nice" but the whole dynamic seems weird.

[Whirling D]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

She's a doctor -can't she afford to hire handymen -why were you going there with asking if you could help fix things/etc? When my future husband and I were long distance that sort of stuff was never on the agenda - and he had access to a full toolbox and was handy.  I did expect him to put together the crib when  I was recovering in the hospital (which he did -with friends).

To me it sounds like you were trying to prove to her how useful you were to her as sort of a househusband type? It's "nice" but the whole dynamic seems weird.

She has tons of people already coming over to the house to do services… Regular landscapers… Etc. She also suffers from having very little liquid asset, because most of her money is tied up in the beach house and her own house. Her family gives her no relief, but the beach house is all equally owned, yet she funds the whole thing herself. 
 

And yes, I like to portray myself as a handyman, I guess, because culturally, a lot of ladies seem to look up to that, I guess. I do like to be helpful, and if I can help her with stuff to lower her burden and stress level, I’m more than happy to do that.

But, there is thread of thought that would say that people who are too eager to please, like I probably have been most of the time I’ve known her, often get left behind because the attraction level diminishes eventually. That could be what has happened here.

There is also the idea that perhaps not being able to see each other for three weeks in August and four weeks in September was enough to really just flip her switch off, because she probably feels she needs more than that, and she may have started to feel a bit of a sense of abandonment, because of that lengthy period of time. Her saying that I just live too far away Kind of indicates that.

she did say something like that on our first or second date, that she thought that the distance might make it tough for her, because she would wanna spend more time with whoever she is dating. I would have been more than happy to go up there a lot more than I was, but it had to be on her terms, and she wouldn’t extend the invite. I thought back in September she had decided that Mondays and Thursdays would be nights that I could come up, but then she just never offered the invite, and it never happened. Not once.

I wasn’t very aggressive with getting together with her, because I know she is an avoidant, and a self-described introvert, so I was just being very patient and letting her have her own space.
 

That may have backfired, who knows.

[Wiseman2]

Sorry this happened. It seems like you both gave it your best shot despite a lot of hurdles and challenges and did manage to connect on a human sort of level. But the personality differences just seemed to accumulate like clouds before a storm.

Maybe the car talk was one of the straws that broke the camels back but more likely it was gathering all along. She seems to really care for you and her decision seems like she deliberated about it for a while.

You both seem to have strong personalities. She seems like the meticulous dot the I's, cross the T's, follow the protocols type, which has served her well in her life and profession. What you like to refer to as "rigid".

You seem to be the "rules are made to be broken", think outside the box, fly by the seat of your pants and challenge authority. That's worked for you and seems to define you and your creativity, just as her coloring inside the lines, toeing the line defines her.

This was sort of emphasized in every story including her asking "why can't you follow the rules" and "why can't you follow the instructions". It just doesn't compute with someone like her.

There's really nothing wrong with either personality. What you perceived as "rigid" is someone who can't play it by ear with HMOs, malpractice and other authorities breathing down her back most of her life.That's just who she is.

So even though you both really tried to meet in the middle sometimes goals and values clash despite both of you being good people in your own way.

Maybe you'll hear from her. It just seems sad. Sorry it didn't work out.

[Whirling D]

43 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sorry this happened. It seems like you both gave it your best shot despite a lot of hurdles and challenges and did manage to connect on a human sort of level. But the personality differences just seemed to accumulate like clouds before a storm.

Maybe the car talk was one of the straws that broke the camels back but more likely it was gathering all along. She seems to really care for you and her decision seems like she deliberated about it for a while.

You both seem to have strong personalities. She seems like the meticulous dot the I's, cross the T's, follow the protocols type, which has served her well in her life and profession. What you like to refer to as "rigid".

You seem to be the "rules are made to be broken", think outside the box, fly by the seat of your pants and challenge authority. That's worked for you and seems to define you and your creativity, just as her coloring inside the lines, toeing the line defines her.

This was sort of emphasized in every story including her asking "why can't you follow the rules" and "why can't you follow the instructions". It just doesn't compute with someone like her.

There's really nothing wrong with either personality. What you perceived as "rigid" is someone who can't play it by ear with HMOs, malpractice and other authorities breathing down her back most of her life.That's just who she is.

So even though you both really tried to meet in the middle sometimes goals and values clash despite both of you being good people in your own way.

Maybe you'll hear from her. It just seems sad. Sorry it didn't work out.

Thanks wise.  It’s totally sad. My heart is completely shattered.

she is such a nice human being, but she is so wrapped up in stress and anxiety, and it’s really hard to not be triggered by that, particularly when it was starting to be aimed in my direction.

Some of my studies regarding attachment disorders is quite clear in it’s pedagogy  that those of us that have a disorganized attachment disorder, and I think I have elements of that as well, “create“ reasons in their head that something can’t work, and those are the tools they use to prevent getting too close to someone who they subconsciously believe will leave them anyway once they discover their flaws.

it’s my guess that the car talk really emphasized that possibility for her, and I just don’t think she wanted to put herself emotionally through that. I think she sensed that it was going to go downhill, based on what seemed like my accusations regarding her behavior and her negative energy.  There is almost no doubt that part of this is what had to have happened. 
 

This is the only thing that explains how a girl a month earlier would be planning with me how to make love out on her balcony overlooking the ocean before the cold weather came, and me joking with her that we would get eaten by mosquitoes… And then a month later helping me with my gig as if she expected to do that many times… And then the next time I see her, after the car talk, she ends it.

i’m just not seeing it. It’s just too weird.

if you really care for someone, like I know she has for me, then why wouldn’t you discuss the issues and see if you could come to some new plan and resolution, rather than just breaking it off? That seems really extreme, based on how close that lady and I were over there three months prior to that.

It just boggles my mind and makes me feel a lot less confident in the stability of human emotional nature. That’s for sure.