Well… I guess that is that.

[Whirling D]

Hi everyone… It’s been a while.  Lots going on, and I feel the need to tell my story on here.  Lots to say.  Buckle up. ☹️😵‍💫

Dr. lady and I are done.

This will be a long posting. For those of you who followed my postings from earlier on, this will probably pick up from where that left off. For those of you that haven’t followed my saga, be prepared… This will be a long read.

So… Where do I even begin?

Well, she ended it with me yesterday.  Out of the blue. With me having no idea it was coming, or thinking it would happen like that.

Many of you guys would probably say that you would predict this outcome, and it’s hard to say whether or not I think that prediction should have been accurate.

There has been a lot under the bridge since I’ve been last on here, some really turbulent times, but some really fantastic times, as well. It was my hope, that the fantastic times, and what we learned from them, would overcome the turbulent times. Little did I know how wrong I would be. 

So, last time I wrote on here was mid July, when I was going to go up to her Beachhouse for vacation, which I did.  We had a pretty good time until the last night there… We had a very complicated event. We were lying in bed, and I don’t even remember how it started, but she began to ball uncontrollably… She started to say things like… “I’m so confused.  I’m the happiest I’ve ever been, but I feel that I don’t know what to do… I love you, but I’m confused based on all the things I was taught growing up… I was supposed to work hard and get a good job, and save so that I could retire, and do the things I wanted, and I’ve been miserable all these years, and yet now I’ve been the happiest I’ve ever been, but I don’t know which way to go. I’ve always been told that I should meet someone who can take care of me, and grow old with, and I love you, but I just don’t know if love is enough”. 
 

I lied in the dark next to her and consoled her through about 45 minutes of this… thinking to myself, how do I come back from this?  After a while, she was able to pull herself out of it, and she came to a resolution… She was going to talk to a therapist that she had a history with that she hadn’t spoken to for a while, and she should be able to talk to the therapist mid week and see what her therapist had to say about it.
 

The next day, she woke up, as if nothing had happened… Happy and in a positive mood. I was in a complete funk for obvious reasons. It almost got to a point where I was so heavily triggered I was starting to think I would never be back to that beautiful place, and her and I would be broken up by the end of the weekend.

Later that day, after her continuing on with her day, as if nothing happened, in kind of a cold, detached way, eventually, I started to break out of my funk, and I reached over and held her hand, and things just fell back into place, and we began connecting again. We had a great rest of the day, and that night we were about the most intimate that we could be. 

She ended up, talking to her therapist, I believe, but she didn’t mention anything about it, but later that week she seemed to be indicating that everything was in place, and she felt really good about her and I.  She said she had resolve her conflict, and that she felt good about things. It seemed rather sudden and strange, but I was happy. She seemed to have turned a corner, but I also realized that that corner could likely take her in another direction at any moment in the future, so my guard was definitely put in place.

She even said her neighbor up at the beach house said she really liked me, and that seem to be really meaningful to her as well. Apparently, although, unspoken, the therapist may have said things to her that made her rethink the notion that I needed to be a certain way for her to move forward with. She never mentioned that night again. 

August was hit and miss, because I was on vacation for 10 days with my kid, and she had family up, so I didn’t see her for three weeks until my birthday week in early September. I hadn’t seen her since about 10 August. Things had been going relatively well, overall. 

I may have mentioned to you that around the beginning of August, she began to change her dosage of SSRI medication, and she was telling me that she could feel her demeanor start to change.  She was starting to become considerably more moody and angry. The world sucked. People sucked. It was hard to break through that at times. Some of that anger began being aimed in my direction, and I don’t do well with that.  I tried to be supportive and understanding during that time, but there were episodes that stood out that I felt I had to address.

I don’t know if I wrote about this before, but she had always been cantankerous when I drove her car. She’d be constantly bossing me around as to what to do, how fast to go, what lane to get in. I found that fairly triggering and annoying, so eventually, I thought it might be proactive to talk about that. 

I told her that it was triggering, and I don’t remember how the conversation began, but she thoughtfully asked me how her concerns about my driving could be different, but still be effective. I thought that was a great question. So I said to her what I believe. I thought that she would be better off not saying anything about my driving and just allow me to make the decisions that I thought were the best ones as I drove.  For example, my car has a fairly effective cruise control, which I use all the time on highways. Her and I would be driving in her car, which does not have the same feature, and I would lose my concentration when we were gabbing away, and suddenly she would get a little cranky and point out that I was doing 15 miles an hour under the speed limit. This might happen several times over an hour long trip. 

So, during our conversation, I suggested to her that perhaps she would be better off just not saying anything during those moments and allow me to notice on my own, that I was going 15 miles an hour under the speed limit, and then correct it on my own, which I’m pretty confident I would have done within a few moments.

Her response to that was that it seemed to go against good communication protocol, because if she didn’t say things that were irritating to her, that it would just build up in her and come out in other ways.  She was unable to understand that the difficulty that was happening was more an issue of her anxiety and need to control situations rather than the mere fact that I was going 15 miles an hour under the speed limit.  I didn’t see it in exactly those words, but I was hoping that she would come to that conclusion.
 

I think it was that same weekend, we went out, and we had a great time at an amusement park in the evening. Coming home, around 10:30 PM, we were driving in a desolate stretch of highway for about 10 miles, with hardly a car anywhere, way out in the middle of nowhere. She pointed out we were coming across her former University campus, and she told me to slow down to 35 miles an hour because there’s always cops around and there could be university students crossing the road. 

This was 10:30 PM at night, and I knew that stretch of road, and there would be no people crossing there, since the campus is on one side of the road, and there’s nothing on the other side of the road.  I thought she might have been a little panicky, so I slowed down, but only got to 39 mph. She got irritated when she noticed I wasn’t going 35 and said “why do you always have to break the rules?” And I said to her that I didn’t think I was doing that, that I saw that there was nobody around anywhere, and 39 would have been likely perfectly acceptable to any cop that was in the area. She didn’t take nicely to that response.
 

The next day, we talked about that, and she reiterated the thought that I wasn’t listening to her, and I was disrespecting what she was asking. So I asked her gently for her to trust that I can make my own decisions in situations like that, and that I felt that I was perfectly reasonable and safe, and that if I got a ticket, it would be my ticket to take, and I would have to own it. eventually, she insisted that she was right, and that I wasn’t listening to her, and I responded by saying that there wasn’t necessarily one person that was right or wrong, but there was just two different opinions, and both were equally valid. I tried to validate her perspective, but also stood up for my own perception, which is that I was driving perfectly safe, and I should have a right to be able to drive the way I feel is reasonable without feeling like I’m being judged for it. 

She couldn’t seem to settle for the idea that neither one of us was perfectly more right than the other. I think she left that conversation feeling that she was more right than I was. So be it.

I started to notice things change after that vacation week. I started to notice that even though we were still talking every morning, and she still seemed really happy to hear from me every morning, and we had video calls that lasted a better part of an hour every night, she started to become less demonstrative romantically. They were hardly any romantic emojis in her texts, which were always part of our dynamic. She started being considerably less complementary to me and hardly ever verbally validating.

Back to my birthday weekend in early September. I hadn’t seen her in three weeks, and she came down to my house for the first gig of mine she had ever seen… We had a great day. She helped me set up and break down all of my equipment, and she got to know my band mates. She was awesome. later in the day, we went to my favorite restaurant, and I could tell she was a little stressed out at first, but after a while, she relaxed, and we had a great meal. We headed up to the beach house after that and had a beautiful night of intimacy after that. 

She even bought me a wonderful appliance that I needed for my house for my birthday.  It was awesome.

But still, even though we had a great weekend, it’s still felt like she was keeping me kind of at arms length. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, and I knew she was trying hard to keep things moving forward, but I could sense there was a distance brewing.

The last day of that Labor Day weekend, which would have been Monday, we were still up at the beach house, she was nasty all day. Everything sucked, people sucked. As mentioned, it started to kind of trickle toward my direction. I was hugely triggered. Here’s an example:

One of the tasks that she wanted me to do, and I’ll tell you I had worked hard up at that beach house over the last bunch of times I was there to help her get it ready for the first ever rentals that she was embarking upon… She asked me if I could clean her deck. There were some rust stains from the furniture, and she had a gallon of this product that is meant to be put on a hose and sprayed onto the deck.

I knew intuitively that just spraying something on those stains wasn’t going to get rid of them, so while she was off doing other things, I told her I was going to try spot cleaning some of the stains to see if I could prevent using the chemicals, and perhaps make short the order of the job.

She was rummaging around doing other things, so I was out on the deck trying to spot clean a few areas, and it was working… She came by once, I believe, and kind of said, in a cranky voice… “Why don’t you just follow the directions, don’t you think they know what they are doing?“ And I reiterated I’d like to try to spot clean first to see if it’s worth going the distance. 

While she was off doing other things, I finished the deck in about 15 minutes, and it looked pretty good. I didn’t have to use hardly any of the chemicals.

Later, in the day, she told me she was irritated at me because she thought I was disrespecting what she was asking me to do by not following the directions of the product. She seemed kind of angry about it. I said to her that it didn’t seem clear to me that she was mandating that i use the product as intended, and we agreed that other situations like that that she would try to be more clear. She also said that she felt that I disrespected the work that she had done to research the product, and she said she put a lot of work into figuring out what the best way of cleaning the deck would be. How would I know that?  We agreed that we would try to communicate more effectively in such matters.

The rest of the day wasn’t great. She was moody and distant and cranky. I got it, she needed to get the place cleared out for renters coming in, and she was under a deadline. I was hugely triggered all day because of that, and the other conversations.

So, on the ride home to her house that night, in the dark in the car, I asked her if she had anything on her mind that she wanted to talk about, and she said she didn’t.  But I did. I unleashed a lion. I told her that I couldn’t function with that kind of stress and anger, and that if we couldn’t figure out a way forward that involved not barking at each other about stuff, that I could never sustain the relationship, and that I would eventually end up snapping and leaving. I unleashed a whole torrent of frustration, but the main thing that I try to get across is that I didn’t want to be in a relationship based on problems, and that I wanted to focus on solutions, and that I feel like I’m in a good place to be able to be in a relationship  That doesn’t focus on stress and problems. She was surprisingly quiet and unresponsive.

She seemed to have a hard time, really hearing what I was trying to say, and kept refocusing on her belief that it was because of the things that I was doing that irritated her that she was getting stressed out. Not following directions. Always wanting to do things my own way. That kind of thing.  

I also suggested that what was happening could beva classic power struggle, and that there was really no point to those kinds of disagreements, because they really meant nothing in the greater scheme of things, and my interest would be to avoid those kinds of disagreements, because I was hoping that her and I could be happy and cheerful, rather than crabby and stressed out all the time.

That night we agreed to try hard to be better with each other, and communicate better, so it seemed that the conversation ended well.

Bizarrely, when we got back to her house at 10 PM, her mother called and insisted we drive the hour into the city to pick her up and take her to the ER, because she wasn’t doing well. We went back-and-forth with how to manage that, and I agreed that I would drive her the hour to her mothers house, and escort them to the ER. We didn’t get to the ER until a better part of midnight, and I waited out in the waiting room all night, and then eventually went out to the car to sleep. She didn’t come out to the car until 5 AM, and explained that they were going to admit her mom for pneumonia. 

I was hoping that my commitment to sticking with her that night would be an indication that I was there for her.  I felt really connected with her on the drive home, and when we went to bed. I felt maybe we were turning a corner? 

I helped her with more things in the morning at her house, and then I went on my way. I asked her before I left how she felt about the dark conversation, the big conversation we had the night before, and I was almost expecting her to maybe say that she had to think about where to go with it, but she seemed pretty convinced that we would work harder, trying to overcome such disagreements. I was happy for that. 

We knew we weren’t going to see each other hardly at all in September, because I had my kid the following weekend, she had girls weekend the weekend after that, and then she had a wedding to go to out of town last weekend when I was free. So we didn’t see each other for the entire month. We were supposed to see each other the Thursday before she left for the wedding, but she said she was too tired, and had too much to do to prepare for two trips in a row. So she canceled. I wasn’t getting a good feeling.

We were still talking every morning and every night by video. She seemed OK. She always seemed happy to hear from me and we seemed to be doing OK. Little was I to know what was coming.

So, I didn’t hear that much from her during her wedding trip, but she sent a whole bunch of photos, and told me what she had been doing. We didn’t talk on the phone.

On the night she returned, She texted me and told me to call her, so I did. We had a nice chat, and she asked me what I was doing the next day, which she still had off. She invited me up to her house for a midday get together. I was happy to hear that.

I got up there around 11 AM, I had brought ingredients for a nice meal, she seemed happy to see me, she seemed light hearted. We made a nice meal together and sat down and ate. She gave me two Little neat trinkets that she bought for me on her trip, which I thought was awesome. I thought that was a good sign.  After the meal, I helped her do some things around the house that she couldn’t do on her own, things couldn’t have really been better I thought.  Things seem to be going nicely. She seemed to be in a good space, we seem to be having a good time… I was hoping it would be a little bit of a new beginning.

Then, out of nowhere, she sits down at the table, where I was sitting and starts to tell me she wants to talk to me about something, and that how I must’ve noticed that she was pulling away over the last while, and that she had decided she was “losing enthusiasm” about us, and she had decided she was going to end things. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. 

She said that over the last month of being apart she was starting to see the negative things as much of the positive. I live too far away. We were just getting on each others nerves.  I wasn’t going to be able to join her on expensive vacations. She seemed clear this is what she needed to do.  This seems to come out of nowhere, with no evidence in the last hour and a half that she was even thinking about anything complicated.

so, I didn’t spend too much time sitting listening to what she was saying. She said she was ending things. After about 30 seconds of her speaking, I got up and began gathering my things. She followed me to the kitchen and asked me if there was really anything that I wanted to add. All I could really say to her was that I was expecting her and I to continue working on things, as we had last said when we got together last… And that we hadn’t even talked much about vacation plans, even though she had asked if I wanted to go on a skidoo trip in early January. I had told her all along I had liked the idea and we were just have to figure out tricky logistics. We hadn’t even talked about it after that. I also told her that I would have invited her to Canada several times, but it’s because of her complicated work schedule that she wasn’t able to go, nor could she go up for the yank Thanksgiving or over Christmas. But then she was expecting that I would take the week after the holidays to go on a snowmobiling trip, which I told her was complicated, but I would try to figure something else out. That’s the last we spoke of it.

I begin walking down the hall and down the stairs to get my shoes, and she began to cry, and say that she knew I was going to be mad and that I was such an important person in her life and that maybe we could continue to be friends after I got over being mad, and that she knew my interest was to find a partner, since I had said that I’m getting older, and I don’t have a lot of time to waste.  I told her that wasn’t my interest to just be friends, and that I knew what I wanted, and that I had no shortage of love for her, and I was sorry that she felt the way she did.

She followed me out to my car, I gave her a nice hug, and told and asked her one more time. If this is what she really felt she needed to do? I said to her that she didn’t need to do this and we could continue working on things, but she said, fairly clearly that she thought this was the best thing for her to do. So, I told her if she changed her mind to let me know, and she said she would… I wished her the best and I turned around and left. I could hear her crying in her garage. 

I was so brokenhearted, you guys. It came out of nowhere, kind of. Obviously, there were red flags, but I had every intention of trying to stick with this girl. Despite how complicated she was, I knew she had goodness, and I knew that I was capable of trying to work hard to get through these things, despite some errors on my part.

I think having my big talk with her in the car riding home that night was a mistake. I do think I needed to convey that I was feeling triggered, but I think she started to feel that there was no way that she could live up to my expectations of not being angry and stressed out. She even said during that talk, “I know I can be a jerk sometimes, but I don’t know if I can be any other way”.

I think something in her head snapped that night. And I don’t think she was able to get it back.

My psychologist friend said that he thought that she has not fully healed from her other dysfunctional relationships, and she was not able to meet the needs that she felt that I needed from her. He may be right.  I think I may have made that conversation a little bit more demanding, and an ultimatum rather than a negotiation as to how to communicate better and strategies to reduce stress.  I should have been more empathetic with her levels of stress, and the demands placed on her from her family, her career, and the properties she owns. She has a lot going on, and I think she probably was starting to see me as more of part of that stress rather than some thing that was bringing her happiness.

It’s only been 24 hours right about now since I left her house, but I’m still completely distraught and depressed. I just don’t get how something that seemed like it had so much promise and beauty turned so sour like that. I think many of you may have predicted it.

I have gone no contact, and I will not be reaching out to her. Part of me desperately wants her to reach out and try to make sense of what has happened, but I’m not predicting it will happen.

That lady has so much goodness in her, and her and I have so much goodness between his.  I just don’t know how to get past this, or whether I want to. Should I be reaching out to her?

Part of me thinks this might be for the best, though, because there is part of me that thinks that I was starting to be taken for granted… There were times where I feel like I was just taking up space for her… Keeping her company on her long rides… Helping her reduce stress at her Beachhouse… I do think she appreciated those things, but I tend to think that she began to rely on them and felt a little bit entitled to that kind of effort from me, based on what she brings to the table. That may be a bit of a stretch, but she does have a streak of entitlement, and does expect people to bend over backwards for her at times.  That’s not a good fit for me either. 

If you’ve gotten this far, you can see how difficult this ride has been. I put a lot of effort into making that girl happy. Probably too much. Attraction probably diminishes when one partner tries too hard to appease the other.

there are online therapists that believe that a little time and space could make a difference between her and I, and if she begins to believe that maybe she could lose me for good, that she could reach out.
 

At the risk of being uncharacteristically bold, I was really good to her, and we had so much going for us. It’s hard to imagine that she lost sight of that, based on the things that she was saying.

I guess I should stop for now. This is been a friggin long self indulgent post.

I don’t know what my question would even be…

- Should I even hope to hear from this girl again? This is a girl that I’ve spoken to at least twice every day for almost the last five months. How do you just let something like that go? How could she be able to just let something like that go without any kind of real negotiation?

- Did me walking out fairly quickly after she told me she was going to end it perhaps send a wrong message? Is it possible she wanted to feel my passion, come back and try to  beg her not to do it? She certainly knew I didn’t want her to leave. I made that pretty clear. I told her I had no shortage of love for her just before I walked out the door. I don’t know what more I could’ve done other than beg, and I wasn’t about to do that.  I did say when I was gathering my things that I had no interest in trying to talk someone out of staying with me who wasn’t interested in staying with me. I think she would have known that was the perspective I was going to take. 

She had discovered back in July that she believed she was a disorganized attachment style, or anxious attachment… Same thing. She was quite amazed when she saw videos, and read about that attachment disorder, and how it applied to her.

Some of the videos I have watched describe that attachment style as being one where the person that is suffering from it will often break off perfectly good relationships when they start to get a little more complicated, just because they can’t manage the internal conflict that comes along with it. After a while, those people will often try to rekindle the relationship, when they realize that they had made a mistake breaking it off, and that perhaps they did so out of internal conflict, and not because they didn’t love each other.

I have no doubt that she loves me and is probably quite distraught right now. But as she said the night that I lied in bed with her, sometimes love just isn’t enough.

That may be where the story ends, who knows. I probably loved her as much, if not more than anybody I have loved in my life.

But I guess sometimes love is not enough.

thanks for reading.

 

 

 

[Lambert]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

I think having my big talk with her in the car riding home that night was a mistake

I'm sorry. 

I know rehashing of everything is completely to be expected in times like this. I'd try not to place blame or name mistakes.

Relationships are complicated. You're right, sometimes love is not enough.  Both people make mistakes. And aside from cheating or abuse, both people are responsible for the success and or failure of the relationship. 

Hang in there. I think you handled it the best you could. You didn't settle for friends & left her with the option to contact you, if she changes her mind. 

Use this time to just take care of yourself.  it's hard but you can and will get through this. In time, you'll meet someone else that is more compatible with you.  

 

 

[boltnrun]

I'm sorry it didn't work out.

As the old song goes:

"There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you & me & we just disagree."

[MissCanuck]

Sorry to read this, D. 

Unfortuantely, the incompatibilities became too much. You're just too different for this to have worked in the long-term. 

You walking out after she ended it or you being honest that night in the car are not that relevant. She had already been doubting things and her behaviour in the month you two didn't see each other supports her assertion that this needed to end. She wanted out. 

Healing will take time, but you'll get there. 

[Batya33]

I agree with the others. Entirely. And I am sorry you are hurting and do wish you healing. Fast healing. 
Something struck me and I’ll probably mess up the retelling. You said she said about how she harangued your driving - basically “well if you did what I asked I wouldn’t feel anxious and wouldn’t nag you /beat a dead horse.”  No. No. No.  because I am her in this sense - I tend to the controlling I tend to the type A ok please do this darn thing my way !! 

But I OWN the temptation to repeat or even to say the potentially nagging or controlling thing in the first place. I’m in my 50s. Her age ish.  So I “work” on alternatives so I keep family and marital peace more of the time. Today:  husband got up 2.5 hours early and Thursday’s are his really crazy work day. Because son’s braces “broke “ and needed immediate attention.   At an office near his suburban school. Which means rush hour traffic back to our city. Husband who is NOT a morning person did this for his non driver wife (yes we can afford Uber but … this made more sense.  Sort of - my DH never suggested I take him in Uber (

after appointment  - after school drop off -wires fixed but now tire pressure sensor comes on again. So.  Off to dealer. Now wires and tires are fixed. But husband then drives home has like 30 minutes before an intense stretch of work from around 11am to 5pm.  
And here I am. I have in my head stuff I need him to attend to - honey do list and other discussions we should have nothing like “deep” but you know the whack a mole that is parenting sometimes. My temptation would be to talk then. Or email then. Get it done. 
but I love him and I care for him and I feel for him. He came first today I mean isn’t it obvious ? It should be to anyone with some common sense and kindness and compassion. So I said quietly “if I can help you with getting out the door again I’m here”.  He asked me to follow up with orthodontist.  I did. But away from him since he needed a minute to breathe. I stayed out of his way but approachable. When he spoke to me I stayed chill and supportive. 
Your ex is not like this. She doesn’t read the room and doesn’t care enough if she’s too much too intense to whatever the heck because it’s about her. Too bad if you don’t like it because darn it this is who she is and if she “needs” to remind you of your speed every five minutes during  an otherwise fun conversation too bad if it’s too much. I really didn’t like her comments. At all. Sorry if long winded. It got to me cause she’s not willing to be other centered or giving or budge. Even a little. Ick 
 

[Whirling D]

25 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Sorry to read this, D. 

Unfortuantely, the incompatibilities became too much. You're just too different for this to have worked in the long-term. 

You walking out after she ended it or you being honest that night in the car are not that relevant. She had already been doubting things and her behaviour in the month you two didn't see each other supports her assertion that this needed to end. She wanted out. 

Healing will take time, but you'll get there. 

Yeah, I guess so…

I guess I was fairly naïve to think that since we had a lot of similarities in very important areas, that those similarities would pull us through. I always got the impression she was pretty much all in. Until suddenly she wasn’t.

I don’t even really know what to do with myself at this moment… My brain is just totally scrambled. I thought her and I would continue to fight the battles, but never would I have thought the war would be over so quickly. Never saw that coming. Didn’t think she had it in her, quite frankly.

This is a girl that has repeatedly bemoaned spending 15 years with a guy that she said she never talked with, who never asked her what she liked, or didn’t like, and always asserted his will in matters. Then there was the guy until a few years ago that she was with for three years that she only saw once every second weekend, and also felt very little connection with.

And then there was me… The guy for the first couple of months she said was the only guy she’s ever dated that she felt truly “got” her. So much for that. 
 

I will probably take my last breath wondering how something that has so much to offer turned so sour… But that seems to be my status quo.

And despite a lot of my previous foibles, I think, in so many ways I did so much better with this lady than I have with almost any others in my adult life. I almost never pressured her into anything. Always thoughtful of her time and her space, always willing to give validation and encouragement. Was hugely consistent and positive. Always friendly and good-natured.

Here’s where I think it likely started to go downhill.  After the night that she laid in bed bawling, I think something in my self-confidence just snapped. Prior to that, maybe a little prior to that, maybe the hair conversation… I think I lost the confidence to be a leader in the relationship.

Prior to that, I had a huge amount of confidence, because I felt valued, wanted and needed. I felt she actually kind of looked up to me and respected me somehow, which is not something I feel very often. It’s usually the opposite.

prior to those two devaluing conversation, my confidence allowed me to take the lead, whether it meant being really funny and off the top, or aggressive in bed, or out in the community. I felt like I had the fuel to be the person I wanted to be.

After we had the hair talk, and then a couple weeks later, her bawling in bed, when she said things that rattled my most significant dark neurosis, my confidence went way down, and I mean fast.

I stopped being aggressive, pursuing her verbally, socially, and sexually.  I became significantly disempowered and weakened.  I became astronomically less assertive, and pretty much took on a submissive role. I suddenly became a serious Simp.

I suspect that this alone is what made her lose attraction, or as she said, “lost enthusiasm” or something like that, despite the fact that we were still basically best friends, in most ways that were relevant. I was the first one she spoke with every day, and the last one she spoke with before she went to sleep. Every time she had free time, which wasn’t a lot, her and I made plans to get together, despite not seeing her for a month.

It’s a little ironic how she said a lot of the things on the last day about why she needed to end it, and to know that most of what she said was at her own hands. I don’t think it has anything to do with distance, or going on vacations. I think those are just the cerebral tools that she used to distance herself from a situation that became too complicated for her to manage. So rather than trying to deal with the demons that were plaguing her, it was easier for her to just unplug.

I guess everybody that loses a love interest like that tries to blame the other person for the failure. I guess my failures were that I lacked confidence to take the leadership role once things started to get complicated. That’s not likely attractive to partners.

But I still can likely leave with the understanding that I did significantly better with the doctor lady that I have with the last three relationships I’ve had.

Part of me thinks it will be hard to re-create the power that that relationship had as a potential… Knowing the goodness that lady has inside of her. And knowing the power that her and I had together when things were flowing in the right direction.

For all I know I’ll get a text in a few weeks or a month or two months asking how I am. I have no idea what I will say. I’m sure she’s thinking she still wants to be friends. That’s what she said. No way I could go there right now.

Hearing her cry, as I was leaving, was a soul crusher. She doesn’t deserve that. Neither do I. I almost wonder if I should have stayed there and negotiated with her and told her that I had every belief we could work things through and I saw a vision through the darkness.

I have to wonder if my fear of her anger got in the way of me being able to do that. Couple of months earlier and that wouldn’t have been a problem.

online social workers, who are “experts“ in breakups say to never send follow up letters or texts after someone breaks up with you. That’s my plan. You have to show your ex partner that you are willing to respect their needs and give them what they ask.

There is still a part of me that looks at my phone about every 15 minutes and feels a stab going through my heart when I don’t see a text from her. Part of me still wants her in my life, and part of me still wants to fight for her. She has so much worth fighting for.

General expert consensus is that the only way that could happen right now is for me to let her go. Maybe she’ll value the loss, maybe she won’t. Guess only time will tell. I’m not going to be spending a lot of time waiting it out. I’ll be on dating sites before too long, no doubt. I already reactivated my account, but it’s still too painful for me to even look at the faces of other ladies. I’m just having a hard time seeing anyone that makes me smile the way that her photos did, and I have so many photos of her smiling. That’s what I would likely remember from her. 

[Whirling D]

19 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I agree with the others. Entirely. And I am sorry you are hurting and do wish you healing. Fast healing. 
Something struck me and I’ll probably mess up the retelling. You said she said about how she harangued your driving - basically “well if you did what I asked I wouldn’t feel anxious and wouldn’t nag you /beat a dead horse.”  No. No. No.  because I am her in this sense - I tend to the controlling I tend to the type A ok please do this darn thing my way !! 

But I OWN the temptation to repeat or even to say the potentially nagging or controlling thing in the first place. I’m in my 50s. Her age ish.  So I “work” on alternatives so I keep family and marital peace more of the time. Today:  husband got up 2.5 hours early and Thursday’s are his really crazy work day. Because son’s braces “broke “ and needed immediate attention.   At an office near his suburban school. Which means rush hour traffic back to our city. Husband who is NOT a morning person did this for his non driver wife (yes we can afford Uber but … this made more sense.  Sort of - my DH never suggested I take him in Uber (

after appointment  - after school drop off -wires fixed but now tire pressure sensor comes on again. So.  Off to dealer. Now wires and tires are fixed. But husband then drives home has like 30 minutes before an intense stretch of work from around 11am to 5pm.  
And here I am. I have in my head stuff I need him to attend to - honey do list and other discussions we should have nothing like “deep” but you know the whack a mole that is parenting sometimes. My temptation would be to talk then. Or email then. Get it done. 
but I love him and I care for him and I feel for him. He came first today I mean isn’t it obvious ? It should be to anyone with some common sense and kindness and compassion. So I said quietly “if I can help you with getting out the door again I’m here”.  He asked me to follow up with orthodontist.  I did. But away from him since he needed a minute to breathe. I stayed out of his way but approachable. When he spoke to me I stayed chill and supportive. 
Your ex is not like this. She doesn’t read the room and doesn’t care enough if she’s too much too intense to whatever the heck because it’s about her. Too bad if you don’t like it because darn it this is who she is and if she “needs” to remind you of your speed every five minutes during  an otherwise fun conversation too bad if it’s too much. I really didn’t like her comments. At all. Sorry if long winded. It got to me cause she’s not willing to be other centered or giving or budge. Even a little. Ick 
 

Nice to hear from you, Bat… thank you for your kind words and your stories.

I think you are spot on. She has an uncontrolled self-centered streak. I don’t want to be disparaging, because she has so many other wonderful qualities. She wants to be a good person. She wants to be affectionate. For the first three months, she was all about emotional sharing.

She even said to me once probably in the middle of August, something like, “why couldn’t it just be like it was before when it was less complicated?”  I knew exactly what she was talking about, but I couldn’t buy it. There was nothing complicated about it. I was the same person lying next to her. I wasn’t going anywhere. My hair hadn’t gotten any longer. Why did it need to be more complicated? That was almost completely concocted in her head. Likely the result of her disorganized attachment wounds.

I completely think she created reasons to break up, because she couldn’t manage the conflicting thoughts in her head.

I remember a girl I did this with who was my first adult relationship. She was the sweetest most decent girl that I may have ever known. But I found every reason in the world to turn my head against her. The biggest reason was I didn’t think she was attractive enough. Maybe that was valid, maybe it wasn’t, but my brain turned that into a big tool to push her away. I’ve done that many many times in my life. It’s a defense mechanism to prevent getting hurt, I guess. 

I remember when I was about 15… There was this young girl that was either a year or two younger than I am. She was the nicest, sweetest girl, and she followed me around like a puppy dog, and made no apologies for saying that she was in love with me. but, for some reason, I just couldn’t see it. I look back now and wonder what the heck I was thinking. I can remember her face clearly, and she was beautiful. Smart, sweet, everything that I would probably ever want in my life right now, but at 15 years old, I was scared to death of her. So I continuously rejected her. 

I remember, she even dared me to kiss her once, and I tried, and I just had the crap scared out of me. I couldn’t feel any attraction. That’s so far from what I would’ve likely felt a few years later.

So, people convince themselves in and out of things, based on their own attachment wounds. I tend to think that the doctor lady created a lot of her confusion to put her out of her own misery, so to speak.  Given that she would constantly belittle her own value and self-esteem, I think it was just easier for her to destroy the relationship, then to have to face the fact that her behavior was causing someone she loved discomfort and potential love ending pain.  I can relate, but it gives me so much pain to think of this. It seems so useless. 

I know that’s a longshot, but that’s my take on it. That comes from me doing the same things many times, so I’m not trying to point the finger at anyone.

[Whirling D]

31 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I agree with the others. Entirely. And I am sorry you are hurting and do wish you healing. Fast healing. 
Something struck me and I’ll probably mess up the retelling. You said she said about how she harangued your driving - basically “well if you did what I asked I wouldn’t feel anxious and wouldn’t nag you /beat a dead horse.”  No. No. No.  because I am her in this sense - I tend to the controlling I tend to the type A ok please do this darn thing my way !! 

But I OWN the temptation to repeat or even to say the potentially nagging or controlling thing in the first place. I’m in my 50s. Her age ish.  So I “work” on alternatives so I keep family and marital peace more of the time. Today:  husband got up 2.5 hours early and Thursday’s are his really crazy work day. Because son’s braces “broke “ and needed immediate attention.   At an office near his suburban school. Which means rush hour traffic back to our city. Husband who is NOT a morning person did this for his non driver wife (yes we can afford Uber but … this made more sense.  Sort of - my DH never suggested I take him in Uber (

after appointment  - after school drop off -wires fixed but now tire pressure sensor comes on again. So.  Off to dealer. Now wires and tires are fixed. But husband then drives home has like 30 minutes before an intense stretch of work from around 11am to 5pm.  
And here I am. I have in my head stuff I need him to attend to - honey do list and other discussions we should have nothing like “deep” but you know the whack a mole that is parenting sometimes. My temptation would be to talk then. Or email then. Get it done. 
but I love him and I care for him and I feel for him. He came first today I mean isn’t it obvious ? It should be to anyone with some common sense and kindness and compassion. So I said quietly “if I can help you with getting out the door again I’m here”.  He asked me to follow up with orthodontist.  I did. But away from him since he needed a minute to breathe. I stayed out of his way but approachable. When he spoke to me I stayed chill and supportive. 
Your ex is not like this. She doesn’t read the room and doesn’t care enough if she’s too much too intense to whatever the heck because it’s about her. Too bad if you don’t like it because darn it this is who she is and if she “needs” to remind you of your speed every five minutes during  an otherwise fun conversation too bad if it’s too much. I really didn’t like her comments. At all. Sorry if long winded. It got to me cause she’s not willing to be other centered or giving or budge. Even a little. Ick 
 

Also, I truly wish that she had your negotiating skills, even internally, in matters like this. She’s just not that well developed in that way.

She wants to be, and I think she’s probably going to be thinking of that in her alone time now that she’s single again.  I think she’s just too busy and has too many hands on her time to want to manage any of this right now.

I could have even been a casualty of her stressful existence. I was just one more stress. And given that we hadn’t really been physically together in a month, and then, three weeks prior to that, all I was really accomplishing was filling up space on her car rides, which may or may not have been something she even wanted, although it seemed to always be. Right up until the end she always seemed really happy to hear from me.  

and then out of the blue she tells me she’s going to end it.

Another thing that struck me as hugely peculiar. It’s true that we hadn’t been texting much over the weekend. She did send me a whole bunch of nice photos.

Then, she invited me up to her home the first moments she had when she got home… And when I went up there, she seemed perfectly fine… She allowed me to come into her house, help her with chores, put together a fairly complicated meal with a lot of dishes to take care of, sit and eat that nice meal… Present me with two nice little trinkets from her trip, allow me to kiss her nicely to thank her…

10 minutes later, she breaks up with me.

You tell me how that makes any kind of sense.

That’s where I think that her selfishness kind of comes in. I get the impression she’ll take whatever she can get if it has value to her, and when the value runs out, she’ll discard it. I don’t know how accurate that is, but that’s kind of a sense I get.

I had value to her, because I made her feel good during her long car rides, and I did all kinds of things for her at her house and her beach house. I was basically like her right hand man in that way. We actually worked fairly well together as a team working on projects around her house.

But she wouldn’t really extend that same courtesy to me. Only came to my house once. July 4. Actually, I do remember she drove down one rainy night to see my kids play in a theater production. That was a really great night, despite her having to drive back an hour home through thunderstorms. I was proud of her for taking out on.
 

Then there was the night in early August, where she met my dear friend Larry, up near the town that she lives in, and we went to an outdoor concert up there. Her and I couldn’t get enough of each other that night. There was no way in purgatory that I could have predicted that within a few weeks we would be done. No way. We were so well-connected for those two occasions. Perfectly synced in almost every way.

How does that goes so pathetically wrong so quickly? I’ll never know.

Well, it was probably after lying in bed with her that night, when she was bawling that this seemed to turn around.  I’ll never forget that night. A bigger man probably would have left that night and said there was no way he could continue after hearing her say the things she said.

 

[catfeeder]

I haven’t read this thread yet, but I just want to welcome you back here, Whirl, and I’m so deeply sorry that it’s under these circumstances.

((((BIG HUG))))

[Tinydance]

32 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Yeah, I guess so…

I guess I was fairly naïve to think that since we had a lot of similarities in very important areas, that those similarities would pull us through. I always got the impression she was pretty much all in. Until suddenly she wasn’t.

I don’t even really know what to do with myself at this moment… My brain is just totally scrambled. I thought her and I would continue to fight the battles, but never would I have thought the war would be over so quickly. Never saw that coming. Didn’t think she had it in her, quite frankly.

This is a girl that has repeatedly bemoaned spending 15 years with a guy that she said she never talked with, who never asked her what she liked, or didn’t like, and always asserted his will in matters. Then there was the guy until a few years ago that she was with for three years that she only saw once every second weekend, and also felt very little connection with.

And then there was me… The guy for the first couple of months she said was the only guy she’s ever dated that she felt truly “got” her. So much for that. 
 

I will probably take my last breath wondering how something that has so much to offer turned so sour… But that seems to be my status quo.

And despite a lot of my previous foibles, I think, in so many ways I did so much better with this lady than I have with almost any others in my adult life. I almost never pressured her into anything. Always thoughtful of her time and her space, always willing to give validation and encouragement. Was hugely consistent and positive. Always friendly and good-natured.

Here’s where I think it likely started to go downhill.  After the night that she laid in bed bawling, I think something in my self-confidence just snapped. Prior to that, maybe a little prior to that, maybe the hair conversation… I think I lost the confidence to be a leader in the relationship.

Prior to that, I had a huge amount of confidence, because I felt valued, wanted and needed. I felt she actually kind of looked up to me and respected me somehow, which is not something I feel very often. It’s usually the opposite.

prior to those two devaluing conversation, my confidence allowed me to take the lead, whether it meant being really funny and off the top, or aggressive in bed, or out in the community. I felt like I had the fuel to be the person I wanted to be.

After we had the hair talk, and then a couple weeks later, her bawling in bed, when she said things that rattled my most significant dark neurosis, my confidence went way down, and I mean fast.

I stopped being aggressive, pursuing her verbally, socially, and sexually.  I became significantly disempowered and weakened.  I became astronomically less assertive, and pretty much took on a submissive role. I suddenly became a serious Simp.

I suspect that this alone is what made her lose attraction, or as she said, “lost enthusiasm” or something like that, despite the fact that we were still basically best friends, in most ways that were relevant. I was the first one she spoke with every day, and the last one she spoke with before she went to sleep. Every time she had free time, which wasn’t a lot, her and I made plans to get together, despite not seeing her for a month.

It’s a little ironic how she said a lot of the things on the last day about why she needed to end it, and to know that most of what she said was at her own hands. I don’t think it has anything to do with distance, or going on vacations. I think those are just the cerebral tools that she used to distance herself from a situation that became too complicated for her to manage. So rather than trying to deal with the demons that were plaguing her, it was easier for her to just unplug.

I guess everybody that loses a love interest like that tries to blame the other person for the failure. I guess my failures were that I lacked confidence to take the leadership role once things started to get complicated. That’s not likely attractive to partners.

But I still can likely leave with the understanding that I did significantly better with the doctor lady that I have with the last three relationships I’ve had.

Part of me thinks it will be hard to re-create the power that that relationship had as a potential… Knowing the goodness that lady has inside of her. And knowing the power that her and I had together when things were flowing in the right direction.

For all I know I’ll get a text in a few weeks or a month or two months asking how I am. I have no idea what I will say. I’m sure she’s thinking she still wants to be friends. That’s what she said. No way I could go there right now.

Hearing her cry, as I was leaving, was a soul crusher. She doesn’t deserve that. Neither do I. I almost wonder if I should have stayed there and negotiated with her and told her that I had every belief we could work things through and I saw a vision through the darkness.

I have to wonder if my fear of her anger got in the way of me being able to do that. Couple of months earlier and that wouldn’t have been a problem.

online social workers, who are “experts“ in breakups say to never send follow up letters or texts after someone breaks up with you. That’s my plan. You have to show your ex partner that you are willing to respect their needs and give them what they ask.

There is still a part of me that looks at my phone about every 15 minutes and feels a stab going through my heart when I don’t see a text from her. Part of me still wants her in my life, and part of me still wants to fight for her. She has so much worth fighting for.

General expert consensus is that the only way that could happen right now is for me to let her go. Maybe she’ll value the loss, maybe she won’t. Guess only time will tell. I’m not going to be spending a lot of time waiting it out. I’ll be on dating sites before too long, no doubt. I already reactivated my account, but it’s still too painful for me to even look at the faces of other ladies. I’m just having a hard time seeing anyone that makes me smile the way that her photos did, and I have so many photos of her smiling. That’s what I would likely remember from her. 

You said: "I thought we could keep fighting the battles". That really stood out to me because it's actually not normal in a relationship to always keep fighting. I remember someone saying to me that a relationship is meant to be at least 80% good or something like that. Your relationship wasn't "mostly good". To me it actually sounds like it was mostly bad. Your ex was right that you were getting on each other's nerves. Fundamentally I think you didn't actually have what you call a natural click.

I remember you writing that she  wanted you to change things about yourself, your appearance, etc. And you even said that you began not to be yourself.

However I just want to be fair and see both sides of the story. To me it actually sounds like you're both people who are more dominant and opinionated. So you were probably clashing for this reason. I actually don't think that your behaviour was necessarily totally great either.

Do you mind me asking why you were driving her car a lot? Did you not have your own car? Or she just wanted you to drive her car because she prefers her car? I think because she wasn't your de facto partner or wife and you hadn't been together super long, the car and the beach house were "hers". When you're driving someone else's car, you do need to be respectful towards their car and their wishes. It sounds like she's got a bad temper and her communication style is kind of aggressive. But at the same time it sounded like you weren't actually that respectful towards her wishes about HER property. 

For example, here in Australia people are usually pretty law abiding and police do enforce road rules and speed limits. I understand countries can be different and in some countries people don't follow road rules much. My belief is that if you're driving someone's car and they ask you to follow speed limits, etc , you should respect that. To me it actually seems that you were kind of being passive aggressive. She asked you to slow down to 35 miles or whatever it was. But seems you deliberately only slowed down to 39 because you were annoyed and didn't like being told what to do. And you were like: "I know what I'm doing". Well yes maybe so but if there are actual speed limits and she asked you to follow them then why are you so resistant to doing that?

Also did she actually ask you to help her fix up her beach house? It seems to me that you were always trying to help her which is nice. I know you had good intentions. But sometimes people actually don't want/need your help. If it's her property then in my opinion it's normal that she has the right to ask you to follow what she wants.

If someone came into my house and started helping and I asked them to do something, I want them to be respectful. I don't want them to be like: "No I know what I'm doing". You probably do know but the issue is it's not your house. If I'm going to be honest, this would really annoy me as well. I hate people coming in and using my things or doing something with my house and then if I ask them not to do it, they're like: "No".

[Kwothe28]

4 hours ago, Whirling D said:

Many of you guys would probably say that you would predict this outcome, and it’s hard to say whether or not I think that prediction should have been accurate.

 

I hate bad ending. Even in movies. So I never root for bad ending to happen. Many times I wish I am wrong about some of my predictions. I overanalyze things so lots of things that I say are result of that. And sadly lots of them are not that positive. 

But yes, in your case, it wasnt that hard to "predict" given the ammount of information you are writing. For start you both had a problem with "stature disparity". It made you feel that you are not enough and she felt that you couldt keep up there. Most of happy couples dont have that disparity because they usually seek somebody complimentary. For example, my rich friend married his equally rich dentist wife. My other friend married his long time girlfriend where they both started and made it as a freelancers. Both are very happy couples. Not because "stay in your lane" mentality but because they are complimentary to each other. If there is a disparity there is a big chance that it would show up sooner or later. Like in your case for vacation.

But to be fair, that is a very little drop in the ocean considering all rest. I think you both are not really good dating prospects. You blame this all on yourself and still wonder how can you fix this. Which is normal for beggining of break up but from your writing I would say its more a character flaw. While she very clearly broke up with you. And while you said how you havent seen the signs, signs were all over your post. She literally havent seen you in a month. If that wasnt a sign something was wrong then I dunno what is. Though she did play hot and cold with you so maybe that confused you.

She on the other hand is even heavier case then you. You would think that a doctor would have an abudance of dating prospects just on the fact she is a doctor. And yet I think you said she is still unmarried and no kids. Which is sometimes a personal choice, I get it, but given her personality, its not really that weird that she is that. Because I am sorry to say this, but she is by all means insuffarable. You should have broke up after that car tirade alone. Let alone letting her berate you how "Oh so didnt clean her beach home properly like in an instruction manual". Add anxious attachment characteristics and I really have no doubts why somebody like that is still single.

You did good by just walking out of that mess when she wanted break up. No, if you want a relationship and to be married, you shouldnt want to ge back into that mess ever again. And no, you certanly shouldnt have begged her to be with you, nore you should ever do that. In fact I would suggest to delete and block her. It would be way easier to get over it that way.

[Whirling D]

46 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

You said: "I thought we could keep fighting the battles". That really stood out to me because it's actually not normal in a relationship to always keep fighting. I remember someone saying to me that a relationship is meant to be at least 80% good or something like that. Your relationship wasn't "mostly good". To me it actually sounds like it was mostly bad. Your ex was right that you were getting on each other's nerves. Fundamentally I think you didn't actually have what you call a natural click.

I remember you writing that she  wanted you to change things about yourself, your appearance, etc. And you even said that you began not to be yourself.

However I just want to be fair and see both sides of the story. To me it actually sounds like you're both people who are more dominant and opinionated. So you were probably clashing for this reason. I actually don't think that your behaviour was necessarily totally great either.

Do you mind me asking why you were driving her car a lot? Did you not have your own car? Or she just wanted you to drive her car because she prefers her car? I think because she wasn't your de facto partner or wife and you hadn't been together super long, the car and the beach house were "hers". When you're driving someone else's car, you do need to be respectful towards their car and their wishes. It sounds like she's got a bad temper and her communication style is kind of aggressive. But at the same time it sounded like you weren't actually that respectful towards her wishes about HER property. 

For example, here in Australia people are usually pretty law abiding and police do enforce road rules and speed limits. I understand countries can be different and in some countries people don't follow road rules much. My belief is that if you're driving someone's car and they ask you to follow speed limits, etc , you should respect that. To me it actually seems that you were kind of being passive aggressive. She asked you to slow down to 35 miles or whatever it was. But seems you deliberately only slowed down to 39 because you were annoyed and didn't like being told what to do. And you were like: "I know what I'm doing". Well yes maybe so but if there are actual speed limits and she asked you to follow them then why are you so resistant to doing that?

Also did she actually ask you to help her fix up her beach house? It seems to me that you were always trying to help her which is nice. I know you had good intentions. But sometimes people actually don't want/need your help. If it's her property then in my opinion it's normal that she has the right to ask you to follow what she wants.

If someone came into my house and started helping and I asked them to do something, I want them to be respectful. I don't want them to be like: "No I know what I'm doing". You probably do know but the issue is it's not your house. If I'm going to be honest, this would really annoy me as well. I hate people coming in and using my things or doing something with my house and then if I ask them not to do it, they're like: "No".

Interesting perspectives, I appreciate the thoughts.

I was driving her car because she didn’t like to drive, so whenever we went somewhere I would drive.

here in the US, it’s kind of an unwritten rule that you can get away with so many miles per hour above the speed limit. Everybody just intuitively knows that the cops won’t stop you until you go over a certain threshold.  
 

it didn’t feel like I was being passive aggressive when I went 39 in a 35 mile per hour zone, I just figured that’s what everybody would probably be doing there, and maybe even close to 45, before a cop would likely pull you over, unless it was mid day with lots of people around. I just thought that’s kind of what people would do. I suspect that very few people would actually go right on 35 miles an hour in that zone. Very few, I think.

I didn’t even think much of it until she was barking at me about not going exactly 35 miles an hour. I thought she was being rather petty and extreme.  Almost hostile.

for most couples, a little barking back-and-forth like that would probably not be a big deal, but for three months in our relationship, it struck me as being very triggering, and devaluing. I knew I was going to have a hard time with that kind of barking. I had two other relationships where my partner would bark at me like that, and they did not end well, either.

and yes, she was asking me and expecting me to help her in all kinds of different ways. She was even kind of looking up to me for help and guidance in those matters, which is why I was taking it upon myself to find the easiest and most effective solutions to some of her chores. I didn’t think that was stepping outside of the boundaries, but then she got a little snotty about it, which I didn’t really interpret as being anything other than her being a little snotty. She didn’t specifically tell me how to do something, she just saw that I didn’t do it per instruction on the bottle.

would it not be equally relevant to say that if you ask somebody to do something, and you know they typically are pretty good at such matters, that you respect their experience in such matters and allow them to guide the project along in a way that they think may be more manageable? That’s the way I looked at it.  I think I may have also been a little bit guilty with trying to impress her with how I could think outside the box and get things done quickly, as well.  May be able to trying to score brownie points with being clever?

I do see how from her perspective she could be annoyed. She takes pride in the fact that she follows every rule to the letter. I kind of look at interpretations of rules. She doesn’t validate my perspective, and I suppose I didn’t with hers, but I wasn’t really given a chance to, because I didn’t understand her expecting me to do it exactly the way the instructions were saying. She didn’t really make that clear until she was upset later.

as far as battles and wars, I hear what you are saying. I was saying that a little bit figuratively, meaning that every couple has to get used to different styles, and I was fully trying to interpret her style, but also try to explain my style of thinking as well. I’m not sure that one was necessarily any better or worse than the other. They were just different styles of going about things. I would have no way to know that she was expecting for me to do things exactly the way that she wanted them to be done, but most of the time that’s what was happening, whether I liked it or not.

I was learning to navigate that rigidity, and I think I was doing a fairly good job placating that. I was trying to pay more attention to what speed I was going in the car, and trying to minimize disruptions, so she wouldn’t have to get grumpy.

in fact, in our final conversation about my driving her car, I said to her something like… “Can you see how by me asking you not to comment on this matter is a way of allowing me to correct what you weren’t liking and do it in a way that would make you happy?“  That was my way of trying to make good of the situation that had been cantankerous.

it didn’t feel like she was really making an effort to truly understand that that’s what I was trying to do. I think she still stuck with her belief that I was just being annoying.  So be it.

if she wasn’t willing to try to truly be empathetic with different perspectives, and there’s really not a lot I can do about it, and thus, that’s why we are likely now over.

but again, those are battles that I think couples have to learn to negotiate so they can understand each other’s styles a little more. I thought that those things were the kind of discussions that would help make people grow closer, not make them grow further apart.

 

 

 

[Batya33]

I am a little reluctant to rehash -it's over -but two things.

One -why didn't you go to the wedding?

Two - I think she met someone there and she didn't cheat but he piqued her interest and that started the ball rolling to ending things -she felt attracted/maybe danced/flirted and she saw you/the relationship -in a new light.

[Whirling D]

 I thank you guys for your encouragement.

I do have to say, she may not be as bad as some of my stories portray.  It is likely mostly because I am talking about the contentious stuff on here, but if I was on here to talk about her good things, you would hear a completely different story.

she has a lot of goodness inside of her, and I love her dearly. I do. It’s just hard to manage the 20% of her that can kind of be a crap head.  She even said at the beginning of that big conversation we had in the car… “I know sometimes I can be a jerk“. I wanted to say to her… “Well why don’t you just then choose not to be a jerk? That’s full within your range of decisions“. But I refrained from doing that.

to give you some perspective and context… As you know, we would talk every morning on her way to work, which was often around a half an hour, and every night before bed, which was usually 45 minutes or an hour. We could talk nonstop about all kinds of things… And it was fun, and engaged, and validating. She would ask me about my day, and give me suggestions if I told her that something may not have gone the way I want it to. She would hear my stories about things that went well during the day, or things that didn’t. Occasionally her and I would laugh hysterically, when both of us are not really strong laughers.  That kind of thing.  We can both be very playful and light, and I found that very endearing about her.  She brought me out of myself, which is something that very few ladies I have known were ever able to do. I profoundly will miss that.  It got harder as time went on though, for reasons described previously

Cont… I felt very appreciative that she went out of the way to re-search and order an appliance for my house that was fairly expensive… That was delivered the day before my birthday.

it tickled my heart that she thought of me when she was away for the wedding this past weekend and brought home two little things. They were just puny little things, but I was so thankful that she did that and she was thinking about me.

that’s why this whole break up strikes me is so strange… We sit at the table and have a nice meal, she gives me these two nice little gifts that are wrapped in party paper, and 10 minutes later she breaks up with me.

does that sound oddly suspicious to you?

I will never get it.

That’s why I have to prepare for the possibility that she’s suddenly going to start thinking about it in the near future and be thinking, “what did I do?”

[Tinydance]

8 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Interesting perspectives, I appreciate the thoughts.

I was driving her car because she didn’t like to drive, so whenever we went somewhere I would drive.

here in the US, it’s kind of an unwritten rule that you can get away with so many miles per hour above the speed limit. Everybody just intuitively knows that the cops won’t stop you until you go over a certain threshold.  
 

it didn’t feel like I was being passive aggressive when I went 39 in a 35 mile per hour zone, I just figured that’s what everybody would probably be doing there, and maybe even close to 45, before a cop would likely pull you over, unless it was mid day with lots of people around. I just thought that’s kind of what people would do. I suspect that very few people would actually go right on 35 miles an hour in that zone. Very few, I think.

I didn’t even think much of it until she was barking at me about not going exactly 35 miles an hour. I thought she was being rather petty and extreme.  Almost hostile.

for most couples, a little barking back-and-forth like that would probably not be a big deal, but for three months in our relationship, it struck me as being very triggering, and devaluing. I knew I was going to have a hard time with that kind of barking. I had two other relationships where my partner would bark at me like that, and they did not end well, either.

and yes, she was asking me and expecting me to help her in all kinds of different ways. She was even kind of looking up to me for help and guidance in those matters, which is why I was taking it upon myself to find the easiest and most effective solutions to some of her chores. I didn’t think that was stepping outside of the boundaries, but then she got a little snotty about it, which I didn’t really interpret as being anything other than her being a little snotty. She didn’t specifically tell me how to do something, she just saw that I didn’t do it per instruction on the bottle.

would it not be equally relevant to say that if you ask somebody to do something, and you know they typically are pretty good at such matters, that you respect their experience in such matters and allow them to guide the project along in a way that they think may be more manageable? That’s the way I looked at it.  I think I may have also been a little bit guilty with trying to impress her with how I could think outside the box and get things done quickly, as well.  May be able to trying to score brownie points with being clever?

I do see how from her perspective she could be annoyed. She takes pride in the fact that she follows every rule to the letter. I kind of look at interpretations of rules. She doesn’t validate my perspective, and I suppose I didn’t with hers, but I wasn’t really given a chance to, because I didn’t understand her expecting me to do it exactly the way the instructions were saying. She didn’t really make that clear until she was upset later.

as far as battles and wars, I hear what you are saying. I was saying that a little bit figuratively, meaning that every couple has to get used to different styles, and I was fully trying to interpret her style, but also try to explain my style of thinking as well. I’m not sure that one was necessarily any better or worse than the other. They were just different styles of going about things. I would have no way to know that she was expecting for me to do things exactly the way that she wanted them to be done, but most of the time that’s what was happening, whether I liked it or not.

I was learning to navigate that rigidity, and I think I was doing a fairly good job placating that. I was trying to pay more attention to what speed I was going in the car, and trying to minimize disruptions, so she wouldn’t have to get grumpy.

in fact, in our final conversation about my driving her car, I said to her something like… “Can you see how by me asking you not to comment on this matter is a way of allowing me to correct what you weren’t liking and do it in a way that would make you happy?“  That was my way of trying to make good of the situation that had been cantankerous.

it didn’t feel like she was really making an effort to truly understand that that’s what I was trying to do. I think she still stuck with her belief that I was just being annoying.  So be it.

if she wasn’t willing to try to truly be empathetic with different perspectives, and there’s really not a lot I can do about it, and thus, that’s why we are likely now over.

but again, those are battles that I think couples have to learn to negotiate so they can understand each other’s styles a little more. I thought that those things were the kind of discussions that would help make people grow closer, not make them grow further apart.

 

 

 

Well I think unfortunately this woman is what you call high maintaince. You also mentioned that she's on antidepressants so obviously she's struggling with mental health issues. By the way, I'm not saying that to defend her at all but just saying she's a lot of work because you also have her mental health issues to deal with. To me she sounds like someone you might call a "control freak" or micro manager. Seems that she has very particular ways she likes things done and she won't accept any other way.

I think if she was asking you to drive her car or do things for her then she had to be way more chill about things. If she didn't like how you do things then she needs to do it herself. It's as simple as that. Also even if she wanted to say something to you, it has to be in a polite and calm manner. She can't just act aggressive about it.

I actually think it's a good thing that she broke up with you, even if it hurts right now. It doesn't really sound to me like your relationship was actually happy or healthy. I understand you meant fighting battles figuratively. But in this case it actually wasn't figurative, it was literal. You were actually fighting and arguing a lot on a regular basis. You had also been writing about this woman basically from the start. You were talking about various issues you were having from the beginning. I know you really liked her but it seemed you were trying to make the relationship work but it wasn't actually working. Like, it wasn't natural but you kept trying to discuss everything and come to a resolution. Which you do need to do in relationships but you shouldn't need to be doing that constantly.

[Batya33]

She doesn't have to be a bad person at all to be a bad person for you for a romantic relationship. I think often the timing of a breakup seems weird/suspicious to the recipient - and also so often there's no good time to do it.

I think you guys survived on the adrenaline of all the drama/angst/"work" /resolution and on top of that in a short-ish relationship not seeing each other in person for 3 weeks or more -and you don't work really so something is off there too.  Fun convos and video calls- all well and good -but if you then have all this drama/arguing when you are together -hmmmmmmm.  I think it's best it ended even though it hurts -and I'm sorry it does.

[Whirling D]

4 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I am a little reluctant to rehash -it's over -but two things.

One -why didn't you go to the wedding?

Two - I think she met someone there and she didn't cheat but he piqued her interest and that started the ball rolling to ending things -she felt attracted/maybe danced/flirted and she saw you/the relationship -in a new light.

Interesting that you say that, because I wondered about that very possibility.  I wondered whether maybe she had met someone that made her feel things she hadn’t been feeling with me. There is no way she would’ve cheated, because she had family around her the whole time.

if I was a betting man, I wouldn’t bet that that’s what happened, but it’s entirely within range of possibility.

I wasn’t invited to the wedding? I don’t know if I would’ve been able to go, because it’s the weekend I had my kid, and it would’ve been a crap load of money, but I’m guessing she was also not ready to present me to her whole family as her partner.

when her mother was sick a month ago, and I drove them to the ER, I met her mom for the first time, and she had previously been clearly apprehensive about that, saying that her mother has biases against guys with long hair, and people who think liberally. I think the doctor lady was hesitant to put those combinations together.  

But when we went to the emergency room that night, I met her mother and escorted her by arm out of the house and got her settled into the car, and I think her mother thought I was very charming. There was no reason for her to feel otherwise. I never heard anything else regarding what her mother thought of me after that.  There were a couple of opportunities a while back for me to go see the doctor lady when she was staying at her mother’s house, which is much closer to me, but the doctor lady didn’t even bring that up. They were either work nights or travel nights, So I stayed away from suggesting anything.

if I had to guess, I think the doctor lady was worried about her image… And that maybe her family members might not understand why she was with me. That’s what my gut tells me from the hair conversation.  No way to really know, though.

[Batya33]

First of all she should have paid for you to be her guest except maybe attire if needed.  You were this serious this invested talking this much every single day .... and you weren't invited to a family wedding? I think it's fine if you didn't go as you have your daughter -but you should have been welcome to come, invited - and that you weren't speaks volumes to me -but then you're good enough to help her mom in an emergency?? Huh?? 

 

[Whirling D]

4 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

She doesn't have to be a bad person at all to be a bad person for you for a romantic relationship. I think often the timing of a breakup seems weird/suspicious to the recipient - and also so often there's no good time to do it.

I think you guys survived on the adrenaline of all the drama/angst/"work" /resolution and on top of that in a short-ish relationship not seeing each other in person for 3 weeks or more -and you don't work really so something is off there too.  Fun convos and video calls- all well and good -but if you then have all this drama/arguing when you are together -hmmmmmmm.  I think it's best it ended even though it hurts -and I'm sorry it does.

You see, there wasn’t really that much arguing and disagreeing. For the most part, those interactions took up just a small amount of our time together.

most of the time, we were going out on walks on the beach, or doing things around her houses, and when she came to my gig it was absolutely awesome. She helped me completely with my set up and teardown, and dragging all the equipment back to the car. She wanted to learn how to do it and do it properly. I could fall in love with that girl just for that. She was awesome.

I do have to wonder about her medication, and whether that has been screwing with her head over the summer, and maybe has been a larger part of why she has been so disagreeable and mentally unstable.

I remember she was a little testy when I first heard about that… And she was telling me a story how she was prescribing Zoloft to one of her patients, and I said to her… “Does your practice have a policy of sending mental health patients to psychiatrist for the medication management?” She said, “why would I do that?  I know everything I need to know about medication, so I just prescribe whatever they need”.

I think she may have thought I was challenging her prudence with that practice, and I kind of was. I don’t think my doctor would ever prescribe me SSRIs without first going through a psychiatrist.

Yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the changes in her medication were messing with her head. That may be a moot point now, though.

[Whirling D]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

First of all she should have paid for you to be her guest except maybe attire if needed.  You were this serious this invested talking this much every single day .... and you weren't invited to a family wedding? I think it's fine if you didn't go as you have your daughter -but you should have been welcome to come, invited - and that you weren't speaks volumes to me -but then you're good enough to help her mom in an emergency?? Huh?? 

 

She had bought her ticket to the wedding, which was halfway across the country, after we had only been dating for about six or eight weeks, I believe.

It only struck me as a little bit saddening that she didn’t invite me, considering we had only been dating a short while, and also considering the aforementioned biases of her family members.

 

 

[Batya33]

7 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I think she may have thought I was challenging her prudence with that practice, and I kind of was. I don’t think my doctor would ever prescribe me SSRIs without first going through a psychiatrist.

I think both of you shared and shared and shared -but then swept really important stuff under the rug or approached it with so much arguing and stress nothing could get done.

[Whirling D]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

My son's pediatrician posted on her website a year ago or so that she and one other doc in the practice -also a pediatrician -did special training related to mental health and prescribing related medications so that if needed they were equipped and trained to do so - so as they explained it -no psychiatrist but it would be in conjunction with talk therapy.  Since the pandemic many many kids and  teens have needed mental health treatment more than ever it seems so perhaps this sort of training is to expand the options for receiving proper treatment.

I didn’t catch that the Dr. lady actually had any specialized treatment for mental health meds, but I’m not completely sure.  I know my doctor wouldn’t touch that subject with a 10 foot pole.  
 

there were times I wasn’t convinced that she was as knowledgeable in the medical field as you would think a doctor would typically be. But that might just be my own bias. I don’t feel very good saying that.

[Batya33]

Just now, Whirling D said:

I didn’t catch that the Dr. lady actually had any specialized treatment for mental health meds, but I’m not completely sure.  I know my doctor wouldn’t touch that subject with a 10 foot pole.  
 

there were times I wasn’t convinced that she was as knowledgeable in the medical field as you would think a doctor would typically be. But that might just be my own bias. I don’t feel very good saying that.

It's ok -maybe she didn't think you were as talented as you thought you were but you both were supportive -I like that she helped you with your gig.

I don't think you should dwell though on this as some sort of major learning experience -other than square peg in round hole and overlooking major stuff and focusing too much on abstract touchy/feely stuff in common -obviously as she told you many times it was the former incompatibilities that bothered her the most.

[Whirling D]

M

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

It's ok -maybe she didn't think you were as talented as you thought you were but you both were supportive -I like that she helped you with your gig.

I don't think you should dwell though on this as some sort of major learning experience -other than square peg in round hole and overlooking major stuff and focusing too much on abstract touchy/feely stuff in common -obviously as she told you many times it was the former incompatibilities that bothered her the most.

Ironically, the last time I saw her I teased her about my hair, and she said… “I’m kind of getting used to it… :-)“

on the other hand, when I was up there yesterday, she handed me a page of a magazine, and said “here’s a picture of another hairstyle that I thought you might like“ it was a picture of some older actor with a wavy hairstyle. It looked good.

Even that gesture at that particular time made me think… Did she really plan to break up with me yesterday? Or did it just come out impulsively?  I may never know.

 

 

[Whirling D]

She hadn’t mentioned one of the incompatibilities since probably the end of July. I had hoped we had put all that stuff behind us, but I wasn’t convinced we did.

so what do you guys think? Do you ever think I’ll hear from this lady again?