Abusive Comment? Or Not?

[rainbowsandroses]

Hey guys, would you consider this comment to be verbally abusive?

For context, it was said when my friend (really a friend, not me) asked her fiancé (nicely) to not shut her out when she tries to communicate with him.

His response?

"Why don't YOU shut your fat ugly face"!  

I think it IS abusive but she thinks it's normal - he's in a bad mood, stressed about getting married, whatever - and she brushed it off like it was a perfectly normal thing for him to say.  

She justified it by saying "well at least he didn't swear at me and use foul language." 

Last month, I overheard him in her kitchen harshly tell her she talks too much and to "shut up."

She's a really good friend of mine, like a sister, known her since third grade, and she's gonna marry this man and not sure, what, if anything, I should do?

Thanks in advance....

 

 

[Seraphim]

Abusive. 

[shouldhavelearned]

Not cool

 

Needs some anger management 

[rainbowsandroses]

Thanks but is there anything I can do?  Again she's like a sister to me and thinks it's normal when stressed, tired etc.

The fact she told me about it kinda suggests she doesn't really think it's normal though.

I'm more upset about it than she is! 

 

[boltnrun]

1 minute ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Thanks but is there something I can do?  Again she's like a sister to me.  

Nothing much you can really do unless you want that a-hole to forbid her to see you.

However you could just tell her that you don't think she's fat OR ugly and that if she ever needs support you're there for her. But you can't "get" her to end the relationship.

My best friend was seeing someone who was lying to her and treating her like an unpaid prostitute. ONE time after she told me she'd gone back to him yet again I said "You know I love you. But I'm sorry, I can't support this relationship. I don't think he treats you well. I hope you understand." She said she did understand and we never discussed the topic again until she finally ended it for good after seven years. Maybe try saying something like that. 

[rainbowsandroses]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

You know I love you. But I'm sorry, I can't support this relationship. I don't think he treats you well. I hope you understand." She said she did understand and we never discussed the topic again..

Thank you that's good advice, I'll try it.

But it's still very hard cause she's actually going to marry him next month...

3 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

you could just tell her that you don't think she's fat OR ugly and that if she ever needs support you're there for her. 

She knows she's not fat or ugly, and she knows HE doesn't think she's fat or ugly either which is why I believe she was able to brush it off so easily...

She thinks I am being too sensitive.   I told her if my boyfriend or fiancé said that to me I would be gone!

In fact many years ago, my ex-fiance made a similar remark and I did leave.  There were other issues though too, not just that. 

I dunno, I'm scared for her. 

 

 

 

[Kwothe28]

3 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

She justified it by saying "well at least he didn't swear at me and use foul language." 

 

How does she not consider him saying "Shut your fat and ugly face" not using a foul language? 

Yeah, it is abusive. And sadly your friend got used to it and accepts it as a normal thing.

[MissCanuck]

It's abusive. 

But no, there is nothing you can do. If she is willing to let something like that slide, it's her choice. 

[Batya33]

Why does she want to marry someone who would say such a thing to her? Does she make comments like that to him, too? Not that it justifies it just for context.  It's not about whether it's technically foul language of course.  People use foul language and it's not abusive - "you're treating me in a [s__y] way right now" -so here's no "at least".  I think you simply say -I am here with you (rather than "for" you) and I will support whatever decisions you make.  Please let me know-if you decide to share these things with me -what kind of response you want from me so I don't overstep." Ask her if she'd be ok with him saying that to a young child of theirs - if they have/want kids. Might give some perspective.

[Wiseman2]

8 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

But it's still very hard cause she's actually going to marry him next month...

Yes it's verbal abuse, but unfortunately she knows what she's getting into.

She seems to be one of those people that are so desperate to walk down the aisle, they'll overlook anything. Sadly she may think marriage magically makes things better. 

All you can do is step back but be supportive. She probably doesn't realize every step toward commitment with someone like this escalates the abuse.

[MrMan1983]

Sounds like a complete as$hole, and sounds predictable how the abusive marriage will go if she goes ahead with this.

[redswim30]

It's abusive.  100%.   Not using "foul language".   Not using curse words makes no difference.  An abusive statement is an abusive statement.  

" I can't believe how dumb you are."

" You're totally worthless."

^ Look!  NO curse words.  STILL abusive statements. 

Sadly, she knows who he and is choosing to overlook it.  Whatever she wants from this relationship (marriage, a family, validation, to not be alone) is worth more to her than being in a healthy relationship. 

Nothing you really can do, it has to come from her. 

[itsallgrand]

Every little girl dreams of a man who tells her to shut her fat ugly face. Yeah, right! 

Has she been abusive relationships before? 

[rainbowsandroses]

35 minutes ago, itsallgrand said:

Has she been abusive relationships before? 

No, but her dad abandoned her and her mom when she was 9, and to this day, they still have a very distant relationship. 

She's also had a string of bad experiences prior to meeting her fiancé, they weren't physically or verbally abusive but emotionally they were what we refer to as "emotionally unavailable."

She was in therapy for awhile but stopped when she met her fiancé.

I dislike how she's chosen to conduct her romantic life but she's been a great friend to me, and we have always supported each orher.  We have lived together, traveled together, again we've known each other since the third grade.

I am still just so upset and appalled, one would think those harsh words were said to me!  

I've gotten fairly adept at shoving down my feelings so I suppose I will have to do that here and pretend everything is "nice."

I hate pretending though, it feels so phony and I also fear losing it one of these days and saying something I may regret to either her or her fiancé.

It's not even that one comment, he won't talk to her and communicate which is why she asked him to not shut her down which is what prompted him to lash out with that comment. 

But she thinks it's all 'normal' possibly because it's "familiar' to her due to her dad's unavailability and abandoning her at such a young age?  She doesn't like it but she's comfortable with it, perhaps even drawn to it on some level.   But who knows really. 

I'm rambling now, but anyway thanks to everyone who's chimed in, I guess I needed a safe place to vent as I know deep down there's nothing I can really do.

 

[smackie9]

Tell her that if he's in a bad mood to leave him alone...not the right time to be asking him to talk or whatever. He's not a good communicator but she should see that he wants his space. Next time she can say "Hey if you need your space just say so, you don't need to talk to me like that." 

[rainbowsandroses]

17 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

Tell her that if he's in a bad mood to leave him alone...not the right time to be asking him to talk or whatever. He's not a good communicator but she should see that he wants his space. Next time she can say "Hey if you need your space just say so, you don't need to talk to me like that." 

That's good advice @smackie9, thank you for that!

That's usually what I tend to do; I was/am able to intuitively know when my boyfriend/ex-husband was in a quiet mood and I left him alone. 

NOT that it excuses the harsh tone and words her fiancé used (no way!) but may explain it?

I dunno, I'm grasping.

Thanks though, I will suggest that to her.  It's sometimes difficult to view things like this objectively when you're so close to it. 

[boltnrun]

It's hard to see someone you care about willingly entering or remaining in a bad relationship. Unfortunately unless you want to be estranged from your friend you will have to bite your tongue unless she specifically asks for your opinion. Don't volunteer advice or opinions or you may find yourself shut out. 

[itsallgrand]

Maybe you could suggest pre marital councilling? You can even specify you'd suggest this to anyone getting married, not just her. 

[boltnrun]

3 minutes ago, itsallgrand said:

Maybe you could suggest pre marital councilling? You can even specify you'd suggest this to anyone getting married, not just her. 

But the guy would have to agree. Given that he tells the OP's friend to "shut up" when she tries to just have a normal conversation, I kind of doubt he'd believe he needs counseling. 

As for the OP's friend and individual counseling, I think that would be a great idea but she would have to believe she could benefit.

[itsallgrand]

3 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

But the guy would have to agree. Given that he tells the OP's friend to "shut up" when she tries to just have a normal conversation, I kind of doubt he'd believe he needs counseling. 

As for the OP's friend and individual counseling, I think that would be a great idea but she would have to believe she could benefit.

Yes. My idea is just giving her some options without stepping on toes...what she does with it is up to her. 

 

[Cherylyn]

Of course,  it's a verbally abusive comment and very cruel and mean. 

No,  it's not normal.  As long as your friend gives excuses for her fiance's cruel behavior,  she gives permission for him to continue abusing her.  As long as she is with him,  she continues to enable his unforgivable behavior. 

She should give the ring 💍  back,  cancel the engagement and wedding.  He's a loser. 

You could tell her it will only get worse should she marry but really,  it's not your life.  It's her life and her choice.  Unfortunately,  she is the one who will face harsh consequences for her decisions.  She will make her bed and now must lie in it.  I know you don't want her to have a misery filled future but she will navigate her own life;  not you despite your good intentions.

[Batya33]

Are you in the wedding?

[Coily]

I've been thinking on this a bit. I think there is something to be said for the context of their relationship dynamics. While i think it's mildly abusive, they may have normalized speaking to each other in such a way, and you have picked up on his treatment of her over her treatment of him. May have zero bearing on things, but sometimes we need to look at how we see things, as we will always choose our friends.

I will also agree with Smackie's assessment, they need to work on how to communicate when one or both of them is stressed out. Some people act wildly out of character when they feel push against a wall. Finding a way to communicate that doesn't agitate the other is best.

Maybe he is the horrible jerk, or maybe he's been overwhelmed and not handling things well.

 

[Cherylyn]

If anyone talked to me like that,  I'm gone and  never  coming back.  😒

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, Coily said:

I've been thinking on this a bit. I think there is something to be said for the context of their relationship dynamics. While i think it's mildly abusive, they may have normalized speaking to each other in such a way, and you have picked up on his treatment of her over her treatment of him. May have zero bearing on things, but sometimes we need to look at how we see things, as we will always choose our friends.

I will also agree with Smackie's assessment, they need to work on how to communicate when one or both of them is stressed out. Some people act wildly out of character when they feel push against a wall. Finding a way to communicate that doesn't agitate the other is best.

Maybe he is the horrible jerk, or maybe he's been overwhelmed and not handling things well.

 

Thanks Coily, I've been thinking about this^^ and @smackie9post and I agree it does take two.   

He pushes her buttons and she pushes his buttons. 

For example (and I've witnessed this with her previous boyfriends), when he comes home quiet after work and needs some time to relax and unwind (my dad and ex husband were like this), it triggers her big time and she will start demanding to know why he's quiet, why he won't talk to her, etc etc 

She pushes hard, won't let up which may drive him to pull away more, which triggers her even more, until it reaches the point where he lashes out.  Harshly, the way he did the other night. 

NOT an excuse but a possible explanation?

That said, afterwards, when things have cooled down, an apology would be nice and go a long way IMO. 

But she says he never apologizes, it's just who he is, and I suppose who she is as well and imo, they're toxic together.  

I agree they need premarital counseling, however since she thinks there's nothing wrong and all this is perfectly normal and just the way some couples argue, it's doubtful she would be open to it.

She may be in denial.