How do I stop feeling envious and angry at couples?

[P4nther]

10 hours ago, Coily said:

I do indeed have a great deal of sympathy for all those you have listed, it's a shame that anyone who wants a partner and is of amiable character have to feel alone in life. I find your insinuation grossly offensive and a perversion of what I said.

There is definitely a double-standard. I think anyone who denies this is being somewhat disingenuous. If an overweight woman complained that she could not find a man, no one will tell her to lose weight and make herself more attractive. Instead, the focus is on body positivity and that most men are too shallow to date a larger lady. Flip the genders, and the very first thing a man is advised is to improve himself physically: hit the gym, lose weight, dress sharper, etc., and all the onus is placed on him. 

[P4nther]

9 hours ago, Jaunty said:

I'm responding to this quote:

Until you've actually been in the trenches, you have no idea.  I do anticipate that you'll have a difficult time until you get a bit of an attitude adjustment.   People pick up on hatred and rage.   

I would venture to say that at least 95% of guys that you see with a woman have experienced rejection at some point, unless they are in arranged unions within strict religious cultures where they don't actually ask women out.  

We all put ourselves out there and some of us (me being one) were cripplingly shy as young guys and had to overcome that.   

For sure it's easier for some than others.  But nobody who doesn't try is getting anywhere.

How exactly can you ask out women when they are not attracted to you?

A large % of communication is non-verbal. People have ways of signalling interest. I've seen it happen before (not with myself, obviously) but with women interested in other guys. If not a single, solitary woman is signalling any interest in you, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you're unwanted and undesirable. 

Personally, I don't see all these other men jumping through hoops. They end up with girlfriends naturally because the women are attracted to something about them, whether it's their appearance, character, social status, or any combination of all three. 

Maybe it's my own fault for deluding myself that there was any hope for a freak like me? I've tried so many times to just accept that I will be foreveralone, that some guys have "it" and others, like me, simply do not, but it's impossible to come to terms with it. 

[WaywardKiwi]

20 minutes ago, P4nther said:

If not a single, solitary woman is signalling any interest in you, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you're unwanted and undesirable

Well, that really depends on the sample size. In what specific circumstances are you interacting with women? How limited is your geographical and demographic sample? What signals exactly are sufficient to indicate romantic interest? 

With regard to your observations of other men,  how well do you know their situations? Can you give an actual example for context. 

You are drawing a very final conclusion from pretty shaky data it seems. 

[P4nther]

33 minutes ago, WaywardKiwi said:

Well, that really depends on the sample size. In what specific circumstances are you interacting with women? How limited is your geographical and demographic sample? What signals exactly are sufficient to indicate romantic interest? 

With regard to your observations of other men,  how well do you know their situations? Can you give an actual example for context. 

An example? My cousin met his now-wife at a wedding reception, some 15 years ago. They got to talking and hit it off from there. She obviously found him attractive, and vice-versa. He didn't go out with the express purpose of meeting this woman and seducing her. They just naturally clicked. It didn't take any great effort on his part.

[WaywardKiwi]

3 minutes ago, P4nther said:

An example? My cousin met his now-wife at a wedding reception, some 15 years ago. They got to talking and hit it off from there. She obviously found him attractive, and vice-versa. He didn't go out with the express purpose of meeting this woman and seducing her. They just naturally clicked. It didn't take any great effort on his part.

Do you regularly attend social gatherings such as wedding receptions, birthday parties, housewarmings or the like? Do you speak to women at these events? 

[Kwothe28]

27 minutes ago, P4nther said:

Personally, I don't see all these other men jumping through hoops. They end up with girlfriends naturally because the women are attracted to something about them, whether it's their appearance, character, social status, or any combination of all three. 

 

Really? Because I know very few that didnt jump through hoops to get girlfriends, even to have sex etc. Very few are top percent that can just show up, dazle all the women and leave. All of others had to make an effort, meet some woman they like, talk, take a number, call on probably multiple dates, until they do something. My rich friend, maybe most prolific in that regard I know, had to take his now wife on 2 dates before he even tried something. And it wasnt smooth sailing on those 2 dates either, in fact they barely didnt had second one because he got mad at her about something. So you see, its almost always a struggle even for those you described.

In fact, if I followed your  non- active approach, I am not sure I would ever had a girfriend. I am not good at first impressions so need some time for people to warm up about me. So it almost always involved a whole process of meeting somebody, taking a number, adding on socials, messaging and asking out. Very few times I had that feeling you describe where I knew a woman finds me attractive from the start. So you see, for most my opportunities, I had to sweat a bit. Most men I know had to. We are not women. We cant just wait for somebody to approach us and be interested because it may never happen. So you would have to be very proactive if you want a girlfriend.

[P4nther]

18 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

Really? Because I know very few that didnt jump through hoops to get girlfriends, even to have sex etc. Very few are top percent that can just show up, dazle all the women and leave. All of others had to make an effort, meet some woman they like, talk, take a number, call on probably multiple dates, until they do something. My rich friend, maybe most prolific in that regard I know, had to take his now wife on 2 dates before he even tried something. And it wasnt smooth sailing on those 2 dates either, in fact they barely didnt had second one because he got mad at her about something. So you see, its almost always a struggle even for those you described.

In fact, if I followed your  non- active approach, I am not sure I would ever had a girfriend. I am not good at first impressions so need some time for people to warm up about me. So it almost always involved a whole process of meeting somebody, taking a number, adding on socials, messaging and asking out. Very few times I had that feeling you describe where I knew a woman finds me attractive from the start. So you see, for most my opportunities, I had to sweat a bit. Most men I know had to. We are not women. We cant just wait for somebody to approach us and be interested because it may never happen. So you would have to be very proactive if you want a girlfriend.

The only way you're ever going to get anywhere, as you describe, is by a woman giving you a chance. How did those men get their chance? Because the women saw something in them. You can't force a woman to go on a date with you. She either finds you attractive/interesting enough to afford you the opportunity, or she doesn't. And in my case, it's unanimously the latter. Women simply don't find guys like me desirable. 

[Kwothe28]

55 minutes ago, P4nther said:

The only way you're ever going to get anywhere, as you describe, is by a woman giving you a chance. How did those men get their chance? Because the women saw something in them. You can't force a woman to go on a date with you. She either finds you attractive/interesting enough to afford you the opportunity, or she doesn't.

Yes, but you are acting like all those men got their chance by just showing up. And again, I can assure you most of them work their but for their shot. Very few managed to create some "instant chemistry" just by showing up. And most of them did have to go through process to get that chance. Meeting them, talking to them, calling on dates etc. The whole process to create that chance. Women wont instantly fall for you. They dont know you. So its up to you to present yourself and see if they want something or not. And I have a feeling you expect them to just be interested from the second they meet you. It doesnt happen like that in most cases. In most cases it takes time. Time that you will spend to get to know them and for them to get to know you. And I have a feeling you just dont want to invest that time into dating because you bought some "blackpill" advice how you are "sub 5" that nobody wants. Guess what? Lots of "sub 5"s also get dates. But they dont do that by sitting at home and wallowing in self pity but by being active about it.

[Batya33]

12 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Agree and that's the unfortunate irony.  The more you get rejected, the more angry and bitter you will become which is reflected by the energy you project. 

I did not.  I got rejected plenty and I asked out men and was also "rejected" when men didn't want to see me again.  I didn't reject men when I declined first meets or dates with rare exception -I "rejected" when I knew them fairly well and there was a specific reason I declined -but lack of chemistry isn't a "rejection" which is why I put it in quotes. 

 I didn't let myself get jaded or bitter even when my female friends were marrying and having babies and I was in my mid 30s and older.  I didn't want to sabotage myself in that way and I kept my eye on the prize despite NO guarantees -and I never felt "entitled." I worked very very hard to come up with ways not to "not be angry" but to react and act in ways that either prevented it outright or kept it on the radar the periphery without infecting or tainting my social interactions.

I met a number of jaded/angry men and women. Often the women had been dishonest with themselves about being ok with casual sex but that's just anecdotal. My personal indirect experience.

What I did was typical of many people I knew dating well into their 30s -especially those who were serious minded - bitter and angry was going to impede our goals. I did nothing special or unusual.

[Coily]

5 hours ago, P4nther said:

There is definitely a double-standard. I think anyone who denies this is being somewhat disingenuous. If an overweight woman complained that she could not find a man, no one will tell her to lose weight and make herself more attractive. Instead, the focus is on body positivity and that most men are too shallow to date a larger lady. Flip the genders, and the very first thing a man is advised is to improve himself physically: hit the gym, lose weight, dress sharper, etc., and all the onus is placed on him. 

Yep, double standard. It sucks but that is just how things are at the moment. It's stupid and malignant, but the question is how do you change the minds of millions? I don't know how.

The bigger thing is how we all handle it. Me personally, I turn my atime and attention to getting the things I want that I can accomplish on my own for me. I don't pay much mind to what the rest of the world thinks of me, when i have to I blend in and pretend to go with the flow. Inside I'm dissatisfied, but the moment I let that out the people who want me to feel bad about myself win. I hold myself to higher standards for me, if that happens to align with some silly social standard fine.

[P4nther]

3 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Yes, but you are acting like all those men got their chance by just showing up. And again, I can assure you most of them work their but for their shot. Very few managed to create some "instant chemistry" just by showing up. And most of them did have to go through process to get that chance. Meeting them, talking to them, calling on dates etc. The whole process to create that chance. Women wont instantly fall for you. They dont know you. So its up to you to present yourself and see if they want something or not. And I have a feeling you expect them to just be interested from the second they meet you. It doesnt happen like that in most cases. In most cases it takes time. Time that you will spend to get to know them and for them to get to know you. And I have a feeling you just dont want to invest that time into dating because you bought some "blackpill" advice how you are "sub 5" that nobody wants. Guess what? Lots of "sub 5"s also get dates. But they dont do that by sitting at home and wallowing in self pity but by being active about it.

My point is that those men are given the opportunity because the woman likes the look of him, his vibe, whatever. It is only from there that they find out more about each other and whether it's worth exploring further. But if you a woman isn't even interested in you to begin with, then good luck getting anywhere. And that's where I find myself. Despite the efforts I've made to improve myself, women still aren't attracted to me. Maybe I am simply undateable and should give up on everything.

[bluecastle]

Can I ask how old you are, for context? I'm also curious about where you live—not specifics of longitude and latitude, but basic outlines. A big city? Small town? A place that leans liberal or conservative? Wherever it is, is it a place where you feel at home, surrounded by like-minded people or a place where you feel, well, out of place? Finally, if I'm understanding things correctly, you've never asked a woman out in person but I'm curious as to whether or not you've ever tried dating apps? 

[Jaunty]

25 minutes ago, P4nther said:

 But if you a woman isn't even interested in you to begin with, then good luck getting anywhere. And that's where I find myself. Despite the efforts I've made to improve myself, women still aren't attracted to me. Maybe I am simply undateable and should give up on everything.

You really have no idea whether the hundreds of women you encounter as you go through the motions of your life might be interested in you if you put yourself out there.  It's very easy to just say "no woman on Earth would go out with me" and then spend possibly the rest of your life marinated in self righteous hatred, anger, self pity, and violent thoughts than to take a risk.   

Most of us can understand how that might come to pass for a person, but IMO your choice of how to handle your own insecurity is not worthy of compassion, because it hinges on blame and hatred towards other people.  People who have something you want, but that you are not willing to take risks and work towards.

"Progress always involves risk; you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first" -- Frederick Wilcox

MOST of the people who have what you want are people who were willing to take risks that, so far, you have not been.  

[rainbowsandroses]

@P4ntherthere was a very similar thread circulating awhile back created by another male poster experiencing the same thing as you. 

I am unable to link but the poster's name was @TheLambOfDeth.

Lots of very interesting responses that may help you on your journey, or may not. 

You don't know me but I've been through hell and back. I won't get into it, this is not the place, but it wasn't good. 

What got me though is resilience.  I think it's so important.  I was blessed with the ability to be resilient from a very young age, probably came from dad, but can be cultivated. 

It would involve a complete transformation of your mindset and attitude but can be done. 

People who have experienced the most extreme levels of adversity (way beyond not being successful with women) have done it and turned their lives completely around.

Up to you, it's a choice. 

Good luck. 

[rainbowsandroses]

@P4ntherI think I may have missed something.

If I'm understanding this correctly now, you have never asked a woman out, never put yourself out there or taken a risk, and basing your non-success with women on your belief that none have given you "signals" that their interested?

Where did you learn this?  That it's up to women to give you proper signals?  And if they don't, they're not interested? 

Well, how the hell could they develop an interest in you if you never approach, never talk to them, never put yourself out there, or never ask them out? 

Get off the manosphere mate, that place is TOXIC.  

[boltnrun]

Do you think all of those men you have contempt for just passively sat there and waited for women to approach them? Or waited until the women showed clear signs they were interested before asking them out?

If that were the case I guarantee there would be a lot fewer couples. 

[itsallgrand]

I mean, the real question right now is are you ready to face the things that are holding you back right now from fully engaging in life and being happy? No promise of anything if you commit to this except that you will improve yourself and broaden your experiences and life. 

I have a cousin who both him and his brother were raised isolated and homeschooled and my uncle and aunt as much as I love them are quite kooky in their beliefs. My cousin is such an inspiration to me, this man without even having the usual socializing most get growing up worked his tail off to make a life for himself. He's currently in Korea teaching French in a private school and thriving. 

I mention him because here was a guy who as a teen couldn't even look me, a cousin, in the eye and was visibly shaken at the most basic interactions with females. Now he lights up a room, he is visibly confident in himself and what he has to offer others. 

You have to give yourself a xhance first my dude. Are you ready to commit to that though? 

 

[P4nther]

3 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Do you think all of those men you have contempt for just passively sat there and waited for women to approach them? Or waited until the women showed clear signs they were interested before asking them out?

If that were the case I guarantee there would be a lot fewer couples. 

I don't believe they tried to find a girlfriend, because normally the harder you try, the more desperate you come across, and that's a turn-off to women. I believe that these men naturally met women who found them attractive (for whatever reason) and the rest is history. Sadly, that doesn't happen for me, because women don't find me desirable on any level.

[Wiseman2]

Do you feel it's your appearance, personality or lack of social opportunities to meet women?

[P4nther]

3 hours ago, bluecastle said:

Can I ask how old you are, for context? I'm also curious about where you live—not specifics of longitude and latitude, but basic outlines. A big city? Small town? A place that leans liberal or conservative? Wherever it is, is it a place where you feel at home, surrounded by like-minded people or a place where you feel, well, out of place? Finally, if I'm understanding things correctly, you've never asked a woman out in person but I'm curious as to whether or not you've ever tried dating apps? 

I'm probably a lot older than you expect, let's say that much 😅

I live in a fairly sized town, a 10 minute train ride from the city. I'm certainly not out in the sticks. 

No, I don't use dating apps. I consider them a humiliation ritual. Imagine taking your best photos and writing up a clever bio, only to be overlooked by just about every woman on there? That would be utterly soul-destroying for me, and hence why I don't do it.

[P4nther]

3 hours ago, rainbowsandroses said:

@P4ntherI think I may have missed something.

If I'm understanding this correctly now, you have never asked a woman out, never put yourself out there or taken a risk, and basing your non-success with women on your belief that none have given you "signals" that their interested?

Where did you learn this?  That it's up to women to give you proper signals?  And if they don't, they're not interested? 

Well, how the hell could they develop an interest in you if you never approach, never talk to them, never put yourself out there, or never ask them out? 

Get off the manosphere mate, that place is TOXIC.  

People give off signals when they're interested in someone. Some signals are more subtle than others, but all the same, it's a natural part of human behaviour.

I am completely invisible to women. They have no interest in me whatsoever. You can't ask a woman out unless there's the opportunity to do so. I wish I could come to terms with the fact I will always be alone and unwanted, but it's easier said than done. Who would willingly want to accept that?

It has nothing to do with the "manosphere". I'm not sure what that even means.

[P4nther]

58 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Do you feel it's your appearance, personality or lack of social opportunities to meet women?

Good question. I wish I knew the answer, but to be honest, I feel that women are the only ones who know the answer to this.

[bluecastle]

1 hour ago, P4nther said:

I'm probably a lot older than you expect, let's say that much 😅

I made no assumptions. That's why I asked. It's fine if you don't want to help with some clarity, but I ask that you don't make any as well. Seems that grand assumptions might be, for you, something like lead-soled shoes. 

Anyhow, if I'm following this correctly, here is the issue: You have never asked a woman out, or attempted to use dating sites to meet women, but are confident that you are "unwanted by every woman on the planet" because you have yet to register the "signal" women give off to show/prompt interest. As such, and as the years have passed, you have come to envy and despise anyone who is a relationship because you view them as a mirror to your condition, and are now looking for ways to address those toxic feelings brewing.  

Does that get to the nuts and bolts? 

[Jaunty]

50 minutes ago, P4nther said:

People give off signals when they're interested in someone. Some signals are more subtle than others, but all the same, it's a natural part of human behaviour.

You have no idea about women's subtle signals, since you have chosen to sequester yourself from interacting with women.  

We can cover the dating app thing here too:  you have no idea how it would go for you since you have made the personal choice not to try.

And, we can also check off the "invisible to women" aspect.  Again, you have decided that you won't interact with women. Thus, you don't know what any women are thinking. Given that women (this is denied by your manosphere - yes, you use the lingo, so you're obviously there) are individuals, you certainly don't know what ALL of them are thinking.  

 

[boltnrun]

What happened the last time you attempted to have a conversation with or even speak to a woman?