Was this behaviour abusive or just "tough parenting"?

[abykann]

I've been thinking about some of the punishments I received in my childhood and whether or not they fall into the category of abuse. My mother used physical punishments when I was growing up. She never hit hard enough to cause long-lasting bruises or anything, but I was absolutely scared of her growing up.

She has admitted that this behaviour is wrong and she no longer wants to do it. It got me thinking about other punishments that felt awful to me, but weren't actual physical abuse. Some of these things are still going on with other family members who live with her. I'm getting to an age where I'm thinking of starting a family and I know she would want to be involved...and it kind of scares me.

Some of these punishments included destroying belongings (that she had paid for), using a food I hated as a punishment, taking an inexpensive but highly sentimental belonging of mine and throwing it away/damaging it (she would always return it later and repair it), tearing clothes, cutting hair or threatening to cut off hair, threatening to take or damage my posessions until I was 100% financially independent (I was working full-time but lived at home, this included gifts that weren't from her), giving gifts but taking them back or threatening to take them if I misbehaved, pretending to be me and ending a high-school "relationship" (I was allowed to date, this wasn't the issue), and reading all of my text conversations and putting down the way I talked, just to name a few.

I know that I would never do these things to my kids, but I'm not sure if I'm just overreacting. A lot of these things gave me severe boundary and self-esteem issues growing up, but any time I've tried to talk about it, my mother will say that she just had too much on her plate and I was a disobedient child. I was not a disobedient child. I worry that she would use punishments like this on my hypothetical kids if they were around her often enough.

Are these actually appropriate forms of punishment? And if not, do I have a duty to talk about this with my mother if I ever have kids? Would it even help? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. 

[Batya33]

I think there are two separate issues here -the general one of what people in the appropriate professional spaces - believe is appropriate discipline and where it crosses the line into inappropriate and/or abusive.  Then there is the issue of whether you now feel that you have scars from how your mother treated you.  I would wait until you have kids and then with your partner figure out whether it's appropriate to have your mother interact with them, babysit, etc and what the appropriate boundaries are. 

A lot can change between now and then. By the time we had our son 3 of our parents were disabled and the one who was not (my mom!) cared for my dad a lot so that hampered her ability to ever babysit (also she was not comfortable being alone with my son once he was walking because she couldn't comfortably lift him if she needed to). 

When the time comes you can talk to your mother about your expectations as to how she interacts with your child - if she asks to babysit/have alone time especially.  

I'm sorry you had upsetting experiences as a child!

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, abykann said:

. Some of these things are still going on with other family members who live with her. I'm getting to an age where I'm thinking of starting a family and I know she would want to be involved...and it kind of scares me.

Sorry this happened to you. Live your own life fully and distance yourself from her. When you have a family, don't leave your children with her. Therapy could help you unpack and sort out what happened to you. Are your younger siblings in danger? Is there a father or normal relatives you could turn to? Distance yourself completely from her. She's a sick dangerous sadist. Don't try to reason with someone like this.

[Batya33]

I didn't read carefully enough.  i agree with Wiseman.

[Coily]

This topic went from, okay the OP's mother may have given a spanking or two and a stern talk; to holy wow destruction of property, cutting hair, and such.

You need to draw a hard line here and not allow this woman near your developing family, unless it's under heavily controlled circumstances. This is not normal parenting, or behavior at all.

 

[Batya33]

Also I don't get what you mean by "tough parenting" - a parent can be firm and have strict rules/be strict without any form of punishment.  Consequences for bad choices/bad behavior -sure -like removal of a privilege like screen time, time out, not being allowed to stay up late, having to clean up a mess the child made, having to apologize to a teacher or caregiver with a handwritten note (if the child hates that sort of thing).  That can be "tough" as opposed to a parent who doesn't have such consequences or doesn't follow through on implementing consequences.  None of that need involve any physical punishment and yet is "firm" or as you put it "tough".

[HeartGoesOn]

I wouldn't allow any child to be alone with this woman.  Unfortunately this is the price you have to pay to be a voice for, along with protecting them from harm.

Be careful not to let your guard down, as these types of people don't change.

 

[Starlight925]

Yes, this was abuse.

She used these things to keep you on eggshells.  What is she going to throw away of  mine now?  What crazy thing is she going to do next?  Oh wait, cut my hair?  Take back a gift?  What next?

It's about keeping the victim on their toes, keeping the abuser in control.

It's  abuse.  Please find a great therapist who can help you sort through this.  Not one who just says, "tell me how that made you feel", or "let's get some tools to help you, like a walk in the park".  Oh no, this requires some deep dive stuff, possibly EMDR.  

Abuse comes in different forms, and I'm here to validate:  If you felt it, it existed.

[Cherylyn]

Your mother is abusive and my parents approach to punishment was physical and mental. 

When I became a mother, instead of punishment, I re-enforced rewards instead of punishment.  For example, if my sons behaved consistently for weeks at a stretch, instead of candy or food, they were rewarded with a special outing just for them and not necessarily lumped with their sibling all the time or grouped as family time.  They were rewarded with special days or times devoted just for them.  They loved it and it was all the more incentive to be on their best behavior habitually.  Or, it could be a special outing and they could bring along a friend for the day or certain time frame. 

If they misbehaved which wasn't often (because they preferred rewards instead of punishments), privileges were taken away.  If it was story time, no story time for several days.  If they wanted to watch TV or a particular program, no TV for several days or even a week.  Or, they had to go to bed earlier than usual as there was nothing to do anyway.  They quickly grew bored without privileges.  Punishments  were passive.  Or, they weren't allowed to partake in certain family or friends type activities. 

Instead of finger wagging lectures, often times my husband or I would ask them this:  "How would you feel if you were in his or her shoes?"  They would say, "We wouldn't like it."  Or, some other "feel for others" correct answer.  We taught them empathy and how to be very considerate of others at a very early age. 

Fortunately, punishments were few and far between because they preferred rewards for excellent behavior as opposed to no privileges for misbehaving.  They learned how to respect others early on.  Mostly, my sons learned through observation regarding how to behave honorably.  Also, my husband is very good to me so they also learned early on how to respect women in particular. 

[Tinydance]

I definitely think you would call all these things abuse. It's basically gaslighting and tormenting. Like giving gifts and then destroying them or taking them away. That's really awful!

At first I was going to ask how old you are but that was only because a long time ago people actually thought it was OK to hit and spank children. Even at school the teacher sometimes would hit children with a stick or a ruler. Please don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think it's OK to hit children, but a long time ago people thought it was a normal form of punishment. So I think at that time people probably didn't really think of it as abuse but just a harsher form of discipline.

I guess also in terms of whether something could be constituted as abuse or not may depend on what the child has actually done and whether "the punishment fits the crime".

For example, parents might give their child an Ipad as a gift. But let's say the child ran away or stole something. So the parents say as punishment for what the child did, they will take away the iPad because what the child did was really serious. But if let's say the child just didn't finish their dinner because they were too full and the parents took away the iPad, I think you could call that abuse. 

In any case, doing things like threatening to cut off hair or physical punishment is definitely abuse. Some forms of punishment are also just not constructive. Like, for example, if your child didn't go to school and lied to you, you can take away their iPad or Playstation but say they'll get it back later. Say in one week. But if you just cut off the child's hair then they would just feel really hurt and bad about how they looked. 

[abykann]

6 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Are your younger siblings in danger? Is there a father or normal relatives you could turn to?

She's actually the hardest on my father at this point. And unfortunately he thinks he deserves it, his self-esteem is pretty low. Every time I've tried to discuss her behaviour with him he blames himself and says if he had been a better husband she wouldn't be so angry and upset all the time. I've stopped trying to convince him otherwise because he doesn't seem to want to hear it. I genuinely don't believe that my siblings are in any phsyical danger, she stopped being physical with them years ago because they're so much bigger than her. Her mistreatment of us has simmered down to severe boundary issues but she's still very toxic towards my dad and he has no desire to leave.

[abykann]

3 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

We taught them empathy and how to be very considerate of others at a very early age.

You sound like you did an incredible job raising your boys. This is the kind of parent that I would want to be, and wish that I had. I'm so sorry that you had to face abuse in your own upbringing. 

I know my mother's intention was to teach empathy but she severely missed the mark. It wasn't until I was in my teen years and my relationships were suffering that I learned the importance of doing the right thing for the "right" reason, and not just the fear of consequences. 

[abykann]

3 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I guess also in terms of whether something could be constituted as abuse or not may depend on what the child has actually done and whether "the punishment fits the crime".

My mother did grow up in the time when schools gave corporal punishment, and when I was a kid I think spanking or slapping was still somewhat acceptable. It's the rest of the stuff that gets me...

I was a A+ student in advanced courses. I never skipped class, never did drugs, wasn't sneaking out or anything but I had my handful of teenager moments that deserved a punishment or two. The majority of the childhood punishments were mostly related to me lying. Usually to get out of trouble over a bad grade or a damaged item in the house, sometimes to get more attention. When I was a teen it was typically for talking back, not doing a chore on time, getting caught messaging friends when I was supposed to be in bed, or if I was caught telling a friend anything negative about her or my home life.

I was also the kind of teen that wanted to be liked by everyone, and I didn't judge the kids who weren't the most "squaky clean" and this bothered her A LOT. She would often try to force me to end casual friendships and demand that I ignore/block/unfollow people or would straight up do it for me. Keep in mind I saw very few of these people outside of school but it tended to cause a lot of trouble when I'd get to class and have to explain why I'd suddenly blocked them everywhere. As an adult I can understand if her concerns were about my safety (one of the kids used pot) but she once blocked a girl in my friend group because she "thought she was a witch".

I see these things as normal, developmental behaviours...and I definitely agree that discipline was deserved in many cases...just not that type of discipline. It just seemed like she always had a way to twist or exaggerate everyone's behaviour to make their crime fit her punishment.

[abykann]

4 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

Abuse comes in different forms, and I'm here to validate:  If you felt it, it existed.

After spending my entire life being told I deserved it, you have no idea how good that feels.

[mylolita]

5 hours ago, abykann said:

You sound like you did an incredible job raising your boys. This is the kind of parent that I would want to be, and wish that I had. I'm so sorry that you had to face abuse in your own upbringing. 

I know my mother's intention was to teach empathy but she severely missed the mark. It wasn't until I was in my teen years and my relationships were suffering that I learned the importance of doing the right thing for the "right" reason, and not just the fear of consequences. 

Hey abykann,

 

This is rough, a rough childhood. Your mother is supposed to be your comfort blanket.

 

As a mother of three myself, I honestly don’t believe children need teaching empathy at all. I’ve witnessed my one year old baby go up to her sister or other children and stroke their head if she sees them crying. My son would always pat my back sweetly when I was holding him at around the same age strangely when I was feeling very tired! And my middle daughter will look to birds or cats and if she thinks they aren’t looking too happy she will say, “Poor thing! Oh poor thing!” 
 

Children are amazing and pure. They have their moments but they are learning and look to us to for guidance. I find my children are often teaching me! Truly! 
 

Personally, when the time comes to have a family of your own, I agree with others - if she is to have contact, I would simply always be there, no excuses, and if she does anything you don’t like, you can tell her when the children aren’t there and make sure she knows she has to behave to have any kind of relationship with her grandchildren.

 

I would cross that bridge when you come to it though. 
 

I don’t know how useful for you or her it would be to address how she raised you? It depends if you are carrying the weight of this around and feel like you would gain closure by “having it out with her”? People deal with their part traumas in different ways. As long as your younger siblings are okay? Maybe you could make it clear to them if you haven’t that they can always come to you/stay with you if they feel threatened? 
 

I am also extremely disappointed and angry at your father for potentially witnessing this and not stepping in/protecting you from your mother? 
 

I’m sorry this happened. Onwards and upwards, you know exactly the type of parent you want to be and the type you don’t want to be! 
 

x

[mylolita]

Also OP,

 

I understand the feelings of “was this abuse?” can be confusing, but in your case, from what you have described, I would say this was abusive.

 

My Dad was quite strict and stern and he did “tap me round the back of the legs” a good few times. But he was loving and tender and amazing for the rest of it, and as others have mentioned, he came from a time when pretty much everyone used corporal punishment (school, parents) he talks and laughs about getting the slipper at school, ruler brought down on your hand, and his mum (my sweet little Grandma!) running around daily chasing him and his brother with a back scrubbing wooden brush trying to whack them both! 
 

My Grandma would tell me stories of “well if you misbehaved it was a clip round the head” and it was as unemotional and simple as that.
 

I think the difference between this is that their parents and my Dad loves me deeply and, these occasions when he lost his temper were few and far between. There was no emotional games, sinister malice behind it. He wasn’t trying to tear me and my sister down. Your mother was playing emotional fear games which is almost worse than physical punishment (I imagine) for messing with your head.

 

I’m personally very glad times have changed and spanking and hitting children is illegal here in the UK. 
 

x

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, abykann said:

She's actually the hardest on my father at this point. 

Please discontinue trying to fix or change her or talk to your equally irresponsible father about the abuse.

You've come a long way moving out and starting your own life.  Therapy could help you reframe things.

For example. Abuse does Not "teach empathy". Abuse teaches how to abuse and be abused. Unfortunately you may be at high risk for abusive relationships because sadly you have normalized this treatment in order to cope.

In addition to therapy and researching and learning about abuse, read up on "cognitive dissonance". It's when the truth is so horrible we rewrite things mentally to deal with the pain.

[Coily]

7 hours ago, abykann said:

She's actually the hardest on my father at this point. And unfortunately he thinks he deserves it, his self-esteem is pretty low. Every time I've tried to discuss her behaviour with him he blames himself and says if he had been a better husband she wouldn't be so angry and upset all the time. I've stopped trying to convince him otherwise because he doesn't seem to want to hear it. I genuinely don't believe that my siblings are in any phsyical danger, she stopped being physical with them years ago because they're so much bigger than her. Her mistreatment of us has simmered down to severe boundary issues but she's still very toxic towards my dad and he has no desire to leave.

I really pity your father, his is a classic example of the abused spouse. He has been so gaslighted by your mother that he's probably damaged beyond hope of regaining any dignity. He probably feels helpless knowing that if he intervened he would get the brunt of her rage, and possibly brunt of the legal system bearing down. So I wouldn't classify him as irresponsible, but broken.

[abykann]

3 hours ago, mylolita said:

Personally, when the time comes to have a family of your own, I agree with others - if she is to have contact, I would simply always be there, no excuses, and if she does anything you don’t like, you can tell her when the children aren’t there and make sure she knows she has to behave to have any kind of relationship with her grandchildren.

I think this is an excellent approach. She cam be a completely different person when she's being supervised...there's no room for the "well you didn't see what happened before that" excuses. I just hope I can have a level response if it ever comes down to that.

[abykann]

1 hour ago, Coily said:

So I wouldn't classify him as irresponsible, but broken.

That's unfortunately how I see it too. It didn't help that I was considered the "disruptor" of the family when I got older. I lived in a different city for 5 years and when I'd visit home for holidays I was always hearing "everyone was getting along until you got here". My siblings always clarified that this wasn't the case, but my dad would encourage me to just ignore her behaviour and not take it to heart.

[boltnrun]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Abuse does Not "teach empathy". Abuse teaches how to abuse and be abused.

100%.

My mother mocked me publicly because I told her my husband and I would not use physical punishment to discipline our son. She would sneer and say "they don't BELIEVE in spanking!" and look around for approval. No one approved. I believe spanking teaches children that when someone does something you don't like you should hit them. Not the message I wanted them to learn. I also wanted my children to feel safe, secure and loved. I wanted them to respect me of course, but not to fear me. 

Your mother's goal was to break you down and make you submissive to her. Even now, it seems. My mother's goal was to have her children fear her. She spoke proudly of how terrified her children were of her. I did fear her wrath, tremendously. She was not the cuddle in her lap type of mother at all. I seldom received hugs or kisses or even pats on the head. So I do understand.

Interestingly my mother absolutely adored my son and never so much as laid a finger on him or even corrected him. She protected him fiercely. I was bemused watching her interact with him because she cuddled and loved on him all the time. Frankly, it was strange. But I was relieved as well. 

[tattoobunnie]

20 hours ago, abykann said:

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. 

I thought my mom was cruel and abusive and withholding and I hated her when I was 12 through 30.

Now with two kids of my own, the damn woman was a saint.  We never realize how much we take from our folks until you get the same drama, crap and ordeal from you own kids.  I read what happened, but they sound like dramatic threats to get you to comply.   Sounds like my mom, really.  Is she Asian too? 🤣

Go ahead and talk about what you think happened.  Because there is a little kid inside of you still blaming her for an event that molded how you are as person now.  But it doesn't mean you need to keep letting your little kid self call the shots in how to be as the adult you are now.

[abykann]

1 hour ago, tattoobunnie said:

Go ahead and talk about what you think happened.  Because there is a little kid inside of you still blaming her for an event that molded how you are as person now.

I think you may have missed part of the point here....this behaviour hasn't fully stopped, and certainly wasn't just idle threats...these things did happen. In fact, that's what made her threats so terrifying, the memories of it actually happening.

Part of me working through these issues is recognizing where they came from. The whole reason I began therapy was because I didn't want to be the person I was taught to be. A meek, compliant, doormat who let anyone and everyone abuse me. When that stop serving me, I decided to change. I can't blame her for how I am today because I'm in control of that. But I can recognize the damage she did to me during crucial developmental years. I couldn't do some of the things she's done to my worst enemy, let alone a child. And I want to make sure she never does it to mine.

[boltnrun]

I tend to act emotionless because that's how my mother acted. But I made a conscious decision to show my kids love and affection. They climbed on my lap and hugged me around the leg and we said "I love you" all day, every day. Sadly, I don't remember my mother saying "I love you" when I was a child.

Yeah, it does affect you, even as an adult. But we can change our behavior by deciding to do differently. 

[Cherylyn]

13 hours ago, abykann said:

You sound like you did an incredible job raising your boys. This is the kind of parent that I would want to be, and wish that I had. I'm so sorry that you had to face abuse in your own upbringing. 

I know my mother's intention was to teach empathy but she severely missed the mark. It wasn't until I was in my teen years and my relationships were suffering that I learned the importance of doing the right thing for the "right" reason, and not just the fear of consequences. 

Thank you @abykann.  I'm sorry about your physical and mental abuse, too.

My parents had no qualms regarding beatings.  My father beat my mother.  My father beat me once and my mother beat me whenever I sassed back or didn't follow her commands.  My earliest memory of her beatings were from age 5.  Both my parents grew up under horrible circumstances.  Not that I give them excuses but they couldn't be the type of parents I wanted because they didn't have any good examples to follow.

The only reason why I am the way I am is because I married a good man who was raised in a proper home filled with normal, very loving stability, nurturing care and a very idyllic "mom 'n pop 'n apple pie" type upbringing.  He has 2 siblings.  (I have 2 siblings.)  His parents set the bar very high and I wanted that for my family in my household. 

I agree, doing the right thing is what matters. 

I, too feared consequences regarding changing the way I conducted myself and whenever I had to deal with people.  I've since learned to either contort and navigate myself wisely with them or I avoid them altogether.  I no longer waste my precious time,  energy and resources on people who aren't reciprocal with common sense decency and courtesy.  I prefer to go my own way in life and I must say it's the most liberating feeling in the world.