Advice on SIL

[Bluejay1]

Hi Everyone,
Hope you’re all doing well. Was hoping to gain insight and get some advice.

I’m in my 30s and have been dating my SO for 1.5 years. Things are serious and happy between us, and I’ve since met SO’s family, including his older SIL.

The SIL possibly has NPD. I can identify traits because I dated someone with NPD for 5 years before understanding it and leaving - the entire ordeal was traumatizing.

My SO and his family are incredibly kind individuals. They always attempt to maintain peace, but needless to say, end up walking on eggshells around SIL to appease her. This has gone on for over a decade and stories I’ve heard are disturbing.

I’ve joined my SO and his family ~3 times in the last year, and 2 times, SIL had outbursts, which I identified as “NPD rage.” The outbursts were unwarranted and unreasonable.

After the 1st incident, which did not involve me, I revealed to SO that witnessing the episode made me uncomfortable. He suggested I ignore SIL and redirect my focus, as that has helped him.

I attempted to, and kept my distance from his SIL the following trip. The 2nd incident, however, involved me, though wasn’t initially directed at me. After this, I asked my SO if it was okay that I just sit out of his future family gatherings that involved his SIL (or at minimal, not share a roof or car) as these incidents have been extremely uncomfortable for me. Also, based on how SIL continues to treat SO’s family, things get worse over time, not better.

SO sounded displeased with my request and asked if this meant I “wouldn’t be joining them ever, if they got together for trips or holidays?” He said he didn’t see why I couldn’t just ignore his SIL, and that it would be weird if I just chose to stay home anytime they vacationed as a family.

I responded that I understand he enjoys spending time with his family, and in no way am I trying to disrupt that. I’ve even encouraged it as much as possible that he go on trips with them. I don’t get much vacation time these days, but in the event that I do get off, I’m perfectly fine backpacking by myself or visiting my own family during SO’s family trips.

For context, I grew up in a family that insisted on spending time together despite toxic behaviors, many of which were directed at me by my much older half-sister. The last and final incident happened only a few years ago, as since then, I’ve finally made a more conscious effort to avoid toxic family members regardless of event. Doing so has made me happier and brought long-term relief.

My SO’s responses have so far been hurtful because it’s clear he thinks I should just endure it, if anything (for sake of appearances, I believe). He understands my past and why I try to avoid toxic people in my personal life (I tolerate toxic people in a professional setting, but would rather not in my personal life). I suggested couples counseling today for this issue, but he hasn’t decided.

Have any of you been through this? What’s worked for you? Do you have suggestions for us? Thank you for reading.

[Seraphim]

I don’t think you are as compatible as you want to think. Same as you I forced to endure dramatic toxic behaviour as a kid and my husband’s family is full of bullies that I have endured for 32 years. My FIL is now passed and my MIL is 87 so she is on borrowed time. I have stayed because I love my husband immensely but at horrendous cost to my mental health . 
 

I recommend finding a partner that doesn’t have these dynamics. 
 

 

[melancholy123]

Ok I can relate.  Mt husband has a wacky sister who has caused all manner of trouble for her 70 odd years.  He is much younger than her.  She has no concept of telling the truth and is a major drama queen of epic proportions, has major hissy fits and plays the victim at every opportunity.

When I came on the scene, years ago, she resented me, told lies about me, called up family members saying  my husband (bf then) was calling her asking for advice on how to dump me!  He never did that.  She told wild stories to anyone who'd listen about me.  I'd never met anyone like her and I sure didnt like her once I Learned what she was saying about me.

My brother was a psychologist and I asked him what to do about her.  He said - stay away from her.  Simple advice and to the point.  My husband didnt like that, as he was close to his family and I think it was for appearances sake that he wanted me to attend family events.  We did have a tough time navigating that issue.  However, I stopped going anywhere she was going to be, and that worked.  I have not seen her in about 20 years and that is just fine.  She still lies and tells wild stories, she is not about to change.

You cannot change your SIL nor the way his family reacts to her.  Your only option is to avoid her at all costs.

[1a1a]

I think, this doesn’t have to be a negotiation. You’ve thought about his concerns at the prospect of you never attending another family gathering and you feel hurt because it feels like he’s only concerned about the optics of your absence and isn’t taking into account that the cost for you to be there is for you to experience discomfort and distress. 
 

If never seeing her again is a hard boundary then tell him that and ask him to give it some thought and work out if it’s a deal breaker for him or not. 
 

A potential compromise you can offer (only if your heart desires to offer it), that you will attend some percentage of family gatherings but you come with your own means of escape and at the first sign that the sister is going to pick a fight, you leave. You’re not angry, there’s no hard feelings, but you aren’t going to stay in this environment while it’s hostile. Peace out, bye bye. (I feel like you’d have to really love him a lot to offer this, just never seeing her again feels much more appealing). 

[Wiseman2]

Sorry this is happening. Reflect if you and your BF are really that compatible.

You can't change his sister. Apparently they are a close knit family and you're just the GF.

You'll either have to be polite and respectful whether you like her or not or reconsider the relationship.

Be careful of armchair diagnoses based on your past and projecting that. You're not going to fix or change him, his sister or their family.

You don't have to be in lockstep with all the family outings, but if you choose to be, be friendly and polite, that's it.

Most of all, reflect if you are compatible because this dislike of his sister is becoming an issue for you.

[Rose Mosse]

5 hours ago, Bluejay1 said:

Have any of you been through this? What’s worked for you? Do you have suggestions for us? Thank you for reading.

Yes. Leave the armchair diagnoses out of it and decide whether you want to stay in the relationship. Your expectations of each other are driving you both apart. He expects you to be there, you expect not have that expectation of you. 

Without other details about these disagreements it’s hard to say whether either or none of you were reasonable. 

Regardless, it’s always best to minimize contact with individuals you cannot respect or who have no respect for you or your choices. Keep it simple that way. 

 

 

[Bluejay1]

Hey Everyone, thanks for all your thoughtful and helpful responses.

Seraphim - I’m sorry that occurred... I love my SO as well and really want it to work. That’s what makes this hard. Agree though, compatibility may need work. I’m grateful communication is okay. Thank you.

Melancholy123 - Wow, I’m sorry... I’m glad it worked out to distance. Psychologist told me the same about last relationship. Until then, it didn’t really occur to me that I should just avoid him. You’re right the only thing I can change is my own reaction. Thank you.

[Bluejay1]

1a1a - Yes exactly your first paragraph accurately describes what went on in my mind and it was difficult for me to express that to him without hurting him, because he truly is kind and not intentionally inconsiderate.

It doesn’t have to be a hard boundary, and I think your potential compromise would work. The escape part helps a lot - Thank you!

[Bluejay1]

Wiseman2 - Yeah I do think compatibility needs work, though communication is okay and we’ve been trying to listen more to each other in general.

His immediate family is close knit and we all get along, but it’s his Sister in Law that they all walk on eggshells around and warn each other about when they sense she’s in a bad mood.

They prefer to avoid adding fuel when she has “outbursts” and just carry on when it’s over. I apologize for not providing additional details, but the consensus among them is that the outbursts are very rarely warranted.

The advice I’ve gotten has helped so much and I no longer feel as guilty/weird as I did (before posting) for asking him if I can avoid her at least most of the time (and yes for sure staying polite and brief if I do have to see her hopefully only once in a while going forward). Thank you!

[Bluejay1]

Rose Mosse - Yes true, her ongoing behaviors could be due to a number of reasons. I didn’t mean to base my observations on my past and I apologize. It would help to recognize signs to know what I’m potentially dealing with only if I stay with my SO though, which I do want to do. I think regarding this we would benefit from seeing a professional together and running through possible scenarios so I can be prepared. It’s likely not realistic to avoid her completely, but I agree it’s best to keep it as simple as possible. Thank you!

[Wiseman2]

31 minutes ago, Bluejay1 said:

 I think regarding this we would benefit from seeing a professional together and running through possible scenarios so I can be prepared. It’s likely not realistic to avoid her completely, but I agree it’s best to keep it as simple as possible. Thank you!

Unfortunately if you need couple's counseling after 18 months dating, there are some communication and incompatibility problems.

It's not your job to fix or change him, his sister or their family dynamic.

It's fine to do your own therapy to develop better boundaries, communication skills and work out your past issues and anxiety and control issues..

However suggesting he needs therapy to get along with his family who he is close to and gets along with anyway is more projecting on your part.

You don't have to like his sister, she's part of his family. She is who she is and she doesn't have to change who she is so that an 18 month GF isn't upset.

The best thing to do is stay in your own lane and observe if you two are compatible. It's better than expecting people and their families to change for your comfort level.

[Batya33]

You don't need to be around someone who acts disrespectful to you.  Are there marriage plans? Does your SO see this as different because you're not part of the family -you're not his wife? He has very different views of family than you. Family -yes, even in laws- takes priority over your comfort.  My FIL started treating me disrespectfully after my MIL passed away -after FIL and I had been close for many years.  He was awesome with our son.  So when he came to see his grandson I left -  and had me time.  It was fine with my husband - but if I'd pushed back against him seeing my son that would not have been ok  (of course I wouldn't have!) - it's all about communication and compromise.  Good luck!

[Lambert]

I don't think compatibility can be "worked on"

Working on something really means compromise & changed behavior.

You have to decide if something that you compare to a toxic childhood memory is really something you can compromise on. 

Seems like a very harmful experience to put yourself through. 

No matter how great a SO is in the good times. it's how the hard things are handled that really tell the story of a long loving relationship.

[Rose Mosse]

3 hours ago, Bluejay1 said:

Rose Mosse - Yes true, her ongoing behaviors could be due to a number of reasons. I didn’t mean to base my observations on my past and I apologize. It would help to recognize signs to know what I’m potentially dealing with only if I stay with my SO though, which I do want to do. I think regarding this we would benefit from seeing a professional together and running through possible scenarios so I can be prepared. It’s likely not realistic to avoid her completely, but I agree it’s best to keep it as simple as possible. Thank you!

You can stay with him but don’t create you vs her (his SIL) scenarios. That’s a set up for failure. Try not to compete with a belligerent person, one who appears unsettled or one you suspect can’t handle him/herself for any reason. It may even be justified.

You also don’t quite know the full story. Where it comes to spouses, marriages and what goes on behind closed doors, never assume you have the full picture of what goes on. You may want to ask yourself if she’s married into a family and finds herself trapped or miserable because her marriage isn’t what it appears on the outset. Remove your rosy lenses and think about whether you want to be around that family. Has it not occurred to you that she may be pressured into spending every vacation moment with people she might not want to always spent that time with just like you? 

The root of problem seems to be your issues with your older half sibling and possible distrust/deep resentment when it comes to other females in a family unit. Why not deal with that relationship in private counselling or therapy?

I’d use the discomfort you feel to probe unsettled issues in your past and also question whether you’re compatible with this family. Your bf’s SIL is just an alarm bell for the kind of pressures and expectations that go along with being his partner. 

 

[Bluejay1]

Wiseman2 - Sorry I didn’t clarify, the counseling would be solely for the purpose of reaching a compromise for this issue only between us. I’d ask counselor if it’s fair that I request SO to only allow me to spend 1 holiday/year or every other year if his SIL there. The expected frequency would be much higher if I did not bring this up after our recent 3rd gathering. SO and I are not sure how to compromise, even though we want to, and he got upset at the thought that I’d want to sit out on functions at all.

I’m not trying to change their family dynamic.. I’d prefer if he just vacationed with them without me, and I’m happy he can spend time with them. The issue is that he wants me there on (all) their family vacations if possible, and I’d prefer to stay home if the SIL is there (I am fine with his other family); this is what we are disagreeing about. I even told him that because I’m so new to their gatherings, no one would even notice if I wasn’t there, so why not let me sit out? But this upset him.

SO does not like his SIL at all, but has learned to ignore her entirely when she’s in the room with his family. He literally doesn’t talk to her and is only there to spend time with other family members. Sometimes they both ignore each other simultaneously.

The issue is he’s asking me to do the same, but that makes me uncomfortable in general and I’d rather just not be present. She talks to me more than I desire and it becomes unpleasant quickly if I or anyone else disagrees with her on even trivial subjects. I have now learned just to agree, nod, and exit the conversation as soon as possible by finding a nearby distraction. People have suggested I just stay away from toxic people, but I’m unable to if we’re in a close setting and she decides to interact with me.

Would it be fair to say he’s trying to change how I respond to this situation by telling me I should ignore her? While I’m just requesting that I not attend functions with SIL present at all... and I can compromise and attend important holidays (and when/how/where etc, is what we’d discuss with a counselor).

SO and I otherwise get along very well and rarely argue about anything else. In terms of lifestyle, I believe we are compatible, but it would be nice to find middle ground on this issue, and it’s looking like we can’t without some help.

[Bluejay1]

Rose Mosse - From stories I’ve heard from SO and members of his immediate family, it doesn’t sound like she’s trapped. It sounds like SO’s SIL is controlling, manipulative, and prone to outbursts if people disagree with her. I want to avoid specifics, but her actions have also been unethical and hypocritical (concerning, given her profession), and I kept those observations to myself in the last year, yet members of my SO’s family would then point it out but no one ever confronts her. That’s okay as I realize that’s how they’ve dealt with her for 10+ years, but I’d like to limit my own exposure to his SIL severely (if cutting off is not an option) after seeing/experiencing this, and my SO is upset at this idea.

I love my SO’s mom and she vents about SIL frequently and I feel bad hearing about mom’s complaints. But as others have shared, it’s their priority to maintain peace so they can continue to vacation together among other things. Is it right for me to ask that I only attend a gathering 1x/year max? Ideally leading to every other year? SO might be willing to see someone with me re this issue, so we’d need to talk to a professional about what he’s able to accept, because we’ve been stressed out every time this topic comes up and unable to reach a conclusion.

For sure I resent my older half sibling. Yes I should work this out privately in counseling as it’s long overdue. Not sure there’s resentment when it comes to females in a family unit in general though as I also deeply resent an uncle and my ex for their actions too, but I’d be willing to explore all possibilities. It’s just sad because I get along with SO’s family very well and I want to see them, but I just don’t want to be around for the drama and in-fighting that occurs when walking on eggshells around his SIL fails.

[Bluejay1]

Batya33 - Thank you yeah it’s been the hardest part (and hurtful) trying to explain to my upset SO why I don’t want to be around someone who is not only disrespectful to me, but also to him and his family. They are simply just used to ignoring her or appeasing her in most scenarios.

Yeah there are marriage plans, which is why this feels awful. I do believe SO would still be upset if I was his wife (maybe even more upset, as I’d perhaps have more of an obligation to attend any/all family gatherings). Yes that is absolutely true - he has a very different view of "family," and I'm glad you brought that up. I no longer choose to tolerate certain behaviors I consider extreme (I really can’t for sake of my own sanity), but he sees this as my not putting family first. There's no right answer, just a compatibility issue, which is also awful to consider.

I’m really sorry you experienced that with your FIL, and glad to hear he was still great with your son, and you were all okay with an arrangement for your me time. The me time is exactly what I’m trying to discuss and establish with my SO, and I hope we can come to a similar compromise. Thank you so much!

[DancingFool]

OP, you mentioned that you've resolved to stay away from toxic people in your personal life and yet......this relationship you are in is the opposite of that resolution. In fact, you are engaging in some extensive mental gymnastics to justify carrying on in this mess that is triggering you and making you so unhappy and uncomfortable.

You cannot compartmentalize your SO, his family, and the SIL as separate units because at the end of the day, this entire arrangement and they way they are choosing to deal with her and even you is toxic. They all want to pretend that everything is great and ignore and suffer psycho behavior rather than draw healthy boundaries with the toxic individual. Think on this long and hard.

Your SO is upset at the idea that you would step out of this family dynamic precisely because there is such an inherent pressure to pretend to get along and do things as a clan. They'd rather walk on eggshells than have boundaries. Keep in mind that when his mother is complaining to you about SIL, she may easily do the same to you. Their family dynamic is essentially a smile to your face stab you in the back variety. They've also been doing this tireless for 10 years. This is not a recent thing, this is how they are and it's deeply ingrained.

Put it very simply, if your SO cannot or will not set boundaries with his family and will not prioritize his relationship with you, you are going to be in a very difficult and miserable life. The fact that you need counseling to resolve this should tell you that this is a much bigger issue than you want to face up to. All couples have to develop boundaries and work out whose fam they'll visit for holiday or split up or whatever. That's usually resolved easily and doesn't lead to need for counseling. As someone else mentioned, when you are just dating and you already need counseling....that's your big clue that you might be investing in the wrong person.

[Bluejay1]

Lambert - That’s true. It doesn’t help to compare at all and I’ve been trying to work on that, but yes in moments of what I see, hear, and have experienced myself with how his SIL behaves with his family, it does feel harmful.

It wasn’t helpful when SO said it would be weird if I sat out of functions... I started feeling guilty for my thoughts, which is exactly why I posted for advice. Everyone has been so helpful and I’m grateful for the additional insight.

Yes I am willing to compromise by agreeing to reduced visits, and also setting up exit strategies and other means of distancing, such as not carpooling, though SO still seems upset at idea of this. I do agree with you that it’s how hard times are handled that show how strong our relationship is, and I really hope we can work through this.

[boltnrun]

2 minutes ago, Bluejay1 said:

SO still seems upset at idea of this.

So he wants you to handle it his way or else he'll be "upset"?

That alone is concerning.

Is he willing to discuss and compromise? Has he said he is willing to compromise?

[Bluejay1]

DancingFool - Wow you articulated precisely... I wasn’t able to organize it this accurately/concisely in my mind despite understanding and agreeing with all that you’ve brought up. Yet it was driving me crazy but I kept wondering if I was overreacting. I was hoping a counselor would not only be able to help us work out vacation arrangements, but also relay the notions you’ve mentioned to my SO. Thank you.. really needed this.

[Bluejay1]

Boltnrun - Yeah it felt like it was his-way-or-be-upset despite my discomfort/requests, which is why I suggested counseling as I saw that as the only way to stop the back and forth between us. I really don’t want to fight, but I also can’t just sit on things that bother me this much. I think he is willing to discuss/compromise, and we have a lot we need to work on at this point.

Thank you!

[boltnrun]

17 minutes ago, Bluejay1 said:

I think he is willing to discuss/compromise,

But has he said he is willing to discuss and compromise? Or are you hoping he will?

[Bluejay1]

Boltnrun - Yeah he said he is willing to discuss and compromise and usually he’s good with that, so I believe it for now. He’s not enthusiastic about this topic (or discussing any conflict for that matter), and I was aware I’d prob have to initiate and find the therapist myself etc, which is fine with me...also willing to try several if necessary and unsure if he feels the same urge. I just found a few names in our area yesterday but have yet to call.

What I’m really hoping for is that he won’t be internally upset over this though if we do decide to try limited contact/vacations. Their family tendency to accept something despite being upset over it (and holding it in until they can vent), isn’t really what I want to perpetuate in my relationship with him (hard for me to explain precisely what I mean - I just don’t want him to be uncomfortable either). Don’t really want a certain cycle to continue, and yeah I guess this absolutely begins to tread in dangerous territory of changing someone. I just hope we can reach the best possible solution without ending the relationship, and I’m hoping that a therapist can help reach fair ground.

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, Bluejay1 said:

I’d ask counselor if it’s fair that I request SO to only allow me to spend 1 holiday/year or every other year if his SIL there.

Are they from a different culture than you? They seem to force themselves on each other then just complain.

Of course you don't need agreement or permission to bow out of family events. Invitations are not subpoenas.

It's interesting the mother gossips about her DIL to you so negatively, that makes the mother a bit toxic and soon she'll complain about you to someone.

How is the relationship with your BF and his brother? The brother has been married to this women 10 years so he must care about her. 

Perhaps she hates being part of their family and acts out because she, as well, is forced to be in lockstep with them (like your BF is trying to do with you).

While avoiding toxic people is a strategy there are many excellent books written on how to deal with them because they could be anywhere.

Step back and look objectively at the family dynamic as a whole, rather than single her out as the black sheep which may blind you to his family's toxic dynamics.