Unfortunately Money Is A Factor

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

I feel that way about dog owners who regard their dog as their child, who draw comparisons in posts on Facebook when people post about their children, who don't understand why I don't want a strange dog approaching me/jumping on me "but she's so friendly!!" especially in an enclosed space because I never allowed my toddler to do that. 

Having said that I respect that relationship, that love, that dedication and I completely relate to how devastating it is if their furbaby is sick heaven forbid or worse.  I loved my cat like he was my sibling, growing up, my husband felt the same about his -and we wish we could have one now but it's not going to happen right now.  So it's strange I wouldn't relate. 

I think it's because I've seen over the years dog owners cater more and more to their dog's wants, preferences, etc- spend more $ on stuff for the dog, the perfect kennel, the perfect dog sitter, etc (I am not judging!! - just observing).  I do think it's an apt analogy because I have to pretend and say all the right things to good friends of mine who are dog owners especially if the dog has to come along to a meal because he can't be left alone for a few hours.  I too know it's there and know I will never feel that way -to that extent -about a dog -and therefore wouldn't want to take on the responsibility as it would not be fair to the dog.

Oh and I think social media has exacerbated the same thing for parents - the moms who spend $$$ on swaddling, on baby gear, on high tech high fashion strollers and diaper bags and themes for the 1st birthday party, who think that what was done in the past for free, using common sense now needs to have a label and a price tag. 

I love suggesting to moms who complain their toddler is bored of their toys to try things like collecting leaves, empty boxes to climb in and decorate maybe, making a game out of putting clothing in the dryer. Oh and that car seat cover you bought on amazon?? For air travel?  We used two kitchen size garbage bags, one for top, one for bottom.  Etc.

Yeah I think right now I'm a lot more of a "dog Mum" because I don't actually have kids. But my parents have a golden retriever dog and I spoil her rotten!

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Actually I wasn't talking about am "exit plan" or financial stability to be honest. I just think that working or at least volunteering is really good in the sense that it allows us to have a sense of identity, meeting people, learning new things, getting different experiences, getting our if the house. Of course the money is a bonus but to me it doesn't seem like the main benefit of working.

I also wanted to respond to the 9 to 3 school day where it feels like there is plenty of time for working.  Even part time -I mean the part time I do which averages around 20 hours a week (I know moms who work "part time" but it's 10 hours or less per week).  There isn't.  Because if you do drop off and pick up -especially with car pool - (I never have but I wait at the bus stop) -that shaves off a good hour.  5 hours.  If you have to go to an office -well that's at least another hour yes? 

And unless you're going to eat all meals while working and all snacks and work while in the rest room - now we're down to 4 hours.  That's assuming your child isn't home sick or you have to do x y or z for the special activities at school where you'll feel guilty if you're an uninvolved parent.  If you're extremely lucky that's 20 hours a week but obviously most people with a 4 hour time block don't do 4 hours of work.  What I did -I did first one day of after school then later, two.  I worked weekends to make up for what I could not do during the week and some nights.  Part time -some weeks were less than 20 hours. And I'm super efficient.  Oh and if you also have to get grocery shopping/errands done good luck doing that after you pick up your child at 3PM from school. 

And those 4 hour preschools are what my friend calls "latte school" you have time to get a latte and maybe! jog - and then it's time for pick up.  One time I actually had a plan.  It was "grandparents/special friends" day.  We had neither as we were newish and no I wasn't going to ask a friend to go to the school. 

So I think I did my plan - lunch with a friend (!!!) and came to pick up with the teachers telling me I should have stayed for the day - that of course the special friend could be his mom, that he cried most of the day and had to go to the director's office to hang out and calm down.  No they didn't tell me.  So good luck thinking that in that time between drop off and pick up it's "your time" - because those days were not constant but happened often enough where I had to come early/stay, etc.  

My friends who work full time need after care every single day plus rotating nanny/sitter if there aren't grandparents, etc around to pick up.  My son missed 22 days of kindergarten for illness including the day of my first interview (my husband was home thank goodness).  By the time he got to second grade and I was working it was probably a third of that - but still.  Luckily my husband -who works way more than full time -has non-traditional hours so sometimes he's had flexibility. It's really stressful!!

And where I work - the massive paycut is in exchange for it being totally fine to say your child is sick - well, most of the time.  In 5 years I've only missed one in person meeting because my child was sick.  But it's so stressful.

I completely agree with the brain benefits of working.  Not because raising a child is brainless -it's not, at all - but I mean a different kind of brain work.  My job often is like a sophisticated jigsaw puzzle plus writing in a creative way, plus being a good editor of my own and others' work. I think about strategies and approaches even when I am not on the clock and it's good for me.  I write things down sometimes before I go to sleep when an idea comes to me. It really was so helpful during the pandemic -distracting in a good way.  Socializing -to an extent, more limited as I telework a lot. 

But yes I made one good lunch friend and it's good she is my age but no kids - so I'm not tempted to talk about kids, nor do I wish to . We talk about everything but a lot of the time the books we're reading and the travel we've done, want to do.  We last saw each other February 2020 and I remember we hesitated before we hugged goodbye because of covid sort of starting.  And now my friend -a fellow mom - took an open part time position so it's nice to have someone I know in the trenches with me.  I agree with you.  I did not feel I needed outside work before he was 5 - there was a shift I felt inside me after.  Everyone is different.  

[East4]

On 11/27/2021 at 4:59 AM, Tinydance said:

Zara is great! We actually have it in Australia too. In Australia in regards to paying for dates and other things, it's actually pretty 50/50. Men don't really seem to pay for women anymore, except if it's something small like a coffee. Or basically you take turns paying for dates. So in this sense it does help to have a job if you're a woman! Lol

Hehe didn't know Zara set foot in Australia, the world is becoming one big village.

Dating culture is changing over here in Europe too, in the same direction like the Australian one.

[East4]

 

On 11/26/2021 at 6:31 PM, itsallgrand said:

I took issue with how you went at dias, implying his opinion is not of equal weight until he has kids. 

This may sound harsh, but making kids requires no particular skills, just the working parts. So I fail to see how impregnating or getting pregnant suddenly makes a person more qualified to weigh in. 

Your experience is valid and it's yours. So is his. 

 

 

Well, I guess if dias took an issue with my posting, he would have said something, unless you have been appointed to speak on his behalf, iag.

Quote

Your experience is valid and it's yours. So is his

The little tiny detail here is that he has no experience in what we were discussing, so how can his experience be valid, if there is no experience at all? If you go back to what I was referring to, it was relating to divorces. As far as I know dias is not married, let alone divorced (good for him). 

I agree with you that the act of conception is rather pleasurable activity and not so laborious 🙂 . The hard part though comes with the childbirth and onwards, the sleepless nights, the constant worry if your child is well fed, healthy, happy and in safety and then, when they grow up, also worries about their education, career and finding a good partner to form their own family. The child is constantly on your mind, you are never free in your thoughts again, like before, as carefree, non-motherly woman. To me this is the hardest part of motherhood, the ultimate sacrifice that a woman is capable of: the sacrifice of your peace of mind, the freedom to think for your own wishes and desires and the luxury to spend your time and money as you see fit.

Husbands may come and go, boyfriends may come and go and careers may come and go. The child is forever. From the first moment my son entered this world, he has not left my thoughts. This is something that can only be felt and experienced, and it is not a pleasant thing. But it is binding. It is impossible to feel that feeling of belonging to your child,  by looking at other women, or by temporarily taking care of somebody's child (as part of profession, or other circumstances).

 I had stood corrected by my own real experiences as a mother: at the start of my marriage I was planning to have three children, the same like you've said iag, it didn't seem to be so complicated to be a mother. Then when I experienced it firsthand, and the toll in took, I had to scale back to being happy with only one child.

 I have not participated in any discussion forum on topics that I have not had any experience: e.g. computer/on-line games, esthetic surgery, or stuff like that. It simply seems inappropriate for me to give opinion/advice on something I do not know first hand. Looks like a sensible approach to me.

[Seraphim]

11 minutes ago, East4 said:

 

Well, I guess if dias took an issue with my posting, he would have said something, unless you have been appointed to speak on his behalf, iag.

The little tiny detail here is that he has no experience in what we were discussing, so how can his experience be valid, if there is no experience at all? If you go back to what I was referring to, it was relating to divorces. As far as I know dias is not married, let alone divorced (good for him). 

I agree with you that the act of conception is rather pleasurable activity and not so laborious 🙂 . The hard part though comes with the childbirth and onwards, the sleepless nights, the constant worry if your child is well fed, healthy, happy and in safety and then, when they grow up, also worries about their education, career and finding a good partner to form their own family. A child is constantly on your mind, you are never free in your thoughts again, like before, as carefree, non-motherly woman. To me this is the hardest part of motherhood, the ultimate sacrifice that a woman is capable of: the sacrifice of your peace of mind, the freedom to think for your own wishes and desires and the luxury to spend your time and money as you see fit.

Husbands come and go, boyfriends come and go, careers come and go. The child is forever. From the first moment my son entered this world, he has not left my thoughts. This is something that can only be felt and experienced, and it is not a pleasant thing. But it is binding. It is impossible to feel that feeling of belonging to your child,  by looking at other women, or by temporarily taking care of somebody's child (as part of profession, or other circumstances).

 I had stood corrected by my own real experiences as a mother: at the start of my marriage I was planning to have three children, the same like you've said iag, it didn't seem to be so complicated to be a mother. Then when I experienced it firsthand, and the toll in took, I had to scale back to being happy with only one child.

 I have not participated in any discussion forum on topics that I have not had any experience: e.g. computer/on-line games, esthetic surgery, or stuff like that. It simply seems inappropriate for me to give opinion/advice on something I do not know first hand. Looks like a sensible approach to me.

I will say it is true. Your child is never never never out of your thoughts ever again once here. I don’t think there has been an hour in 24 years I haven’t had some thought of my son and his life and welfare. 

[Batya33]

59 minutes ago, East4 said:

he child is constantly on your mind, you are never free in your thoughts again, like before, as carefree, non-motherly woman.

I was not carefree for many of the years before I gave birth.  I had an intense and intensely demanding career, serious romantic relationships, serious friendships and family responsibilities.  Lots was on my mind where I was not free in my thoughts.  I really can't stand -and I see this a lot particularly with other moms - holding motherhood over everything as if there is nothing harder to do, nothing more worthwhile, nothing that requires more sacrifice, etc.  And that women who don't have kids or a partner presumably are carefree and have tons of free time and only have to worry about themselves.  It's a silly stereotype and not true.  Parenting is an extremely difficult job.  And amazing role to have when done with love and care.  Why the need especially for moms to play this comparison game of "no one will ever know what hard work is until you're a mom" or the like.  As if they should need to defend the hard work they do, the hard unpaid work they do especially for a woman who doesn't work outside the home. It's not necessary. 

The silly comparisons go on and on too "oh you "only" have one so you have no idea how much work it is to have three".  My acquaintance has three or four kids probably 11 and under.  And her husband recently died of ALS after a years long battle with it.  Horrible tragedy. So -really -someone who has 3 or 4 kids and a healthy husband wants to play this comparison game? Of course not.  What's the point.  Just support people for whatever jobs they choose and never presume someone without children is "carefree" and "non-motherly."  Please.  

[East4]

I honestly can't understand the aggressive reactions from some posters. For some reason, sharing my experiences, triggers them. 

Despite my responsibilities as Air Traffic Controller, arguably one of the most stressful jobs one may have, I have been always able to relax after the end of the shift and be carefree. 

But when my son had an issue, anything, I could never just relax. I guess the emotional connection experienced with a child, is incomparable with the obligation with regards to professional duties. 

Or may be I wasn't a professional enough, if I didn't worry about my job, as much as I worried for my son. 😅😅

[boltnrun]

Ten pages, and the OP hasn't been seen since page one.

And I can't figure out how the OP saying she wants to date a man with money evolved into a discussion about kids vs. no kids and who is more serious or who is or is not "carefree".  I don't recall the OP even mentioned kids.

Anyway, these off the rails threads are always entertaining because they aren't about the OP at all.

[itsallgrand]

3 hours ago, East4 said:

I honestly can't understand the aggressive reactions from some posters. For some reason, sharing my experiences, triggers them. 

Despite my responsibilities as Air Traffic Controller, arguably one of the most stressful jobs one may have, I have been always able to relax after the end of the shift and be carefree. 

But when my son had an issue, anything, I could never just relax. I guess the emotional connection experienced with a child, is incomparable with the obligation with regards to professional duties. 

Or may be I wasn't a professional enough, if I didn't worry about my job, as much as I worried for my son. 😅😅

I mean, it's just the same thing that is heard in variations by some women and it gets tedious. Motherhood is the ultimate sacrifice a woman can make, you don't understand certain things until you are a mother, it's different when it's your own, blah blah blah. It just isn't true. Certainly someone may learn some things they didn't know before once they become a parent, but experiences are knowable in so many ways. Maybe for you, you needed to have a child to know 3 would be too many for you, others might know that before having a child. And that's just one example.  

Some moms never feel that bond with their kid. Some people feel it without ever being an actual parent. Again, it's not the act of having a kid that makes this bond possible. 

I don't mean to come across aggressive, and sorry if I am. These ideas need to die though. It causes harm and it pushes this glorification of motherhood that's damaging. 

I'm not claiming to have the same experience. I'm not trying to speak for anyone, just myself. 

 

[Batya33]

On 11/28/2021 at 7:58 PM, East4 said:

I honestly can't understand the aggressive reactions from some posters. For some reason, sharing my experiences, triggers them. 

Despite my responsibilities as Air Traffic Controller, arguably one of the most stressful jobs one may have, I have been always able to relax after the end of the shift and be carefree. 

But when my son had an issue, anything, I could never just relax. I guess the emotional connection experienced with a child, is incomparable with the obligation with regards to professional duties. 

Or may be I wasn't a professional enough, if I didn't worry about my job, as much as I worried for my son. 😅😅

Good for you!  Not all jobs are like that and many people have to be on call 24/7 for aging parents or siblings etc and can't relax/be carefree. That's what my husband went through when one and then his other parent were disabled/sick/in hospice, etc.  I didn't do shift work - I was on call 24/7 yes even on vacations and even on the one day I took off during my pregnancy because I was up all night with tummy troubles and still didn't feel well enough so I "worked from home" in between bathroom trips.  

[mylolita]

Batya,

Quick question, totally unrelated to this hijacked thread but, it's gone so far now so, let's roll with it!

Can I ask what you do exactly, work wise? Is it something in law or are you an editor of some kind? Just curious. I am nosey!

Lo x
 

 

[mylolita]

On 11/29/2021 at 12:23 AM, Batya33 said:

I was not carefree for many of the years before I gave birth.  I had an intense and intensely demanding career, serious romantic relationships, serious friendships and family responsibilities.  Lots was on my mind where I was not free in my thoughts.  I really can't stand -and I see this a lot particularly with other moms - holding motherhood over everything as if there is nothing harder to do, nothing more worthwhile, nothing that requires more sacrifice, etc.  And that women who don't have kids or a partner presumably are carefree and have tons of free time and only have to worry about themselves.  It's a silly stereotype and not true.  Parenting is an extremely difficult job.  And amazing role to have when done with love and care.  Why the need especially for moms to play this comparison game of "no one will ever know what hard work is until you're a mom" or the like.  As if they should need to defend the hard work they do, the hard unpaid work they do especially for a woman who doesn't work outside the home. It's not necessary. 

The silly comparisons go on and on too "oh you "only" have one so you have no idea how much work it is to have three".  My acquaintance has three or four kids probably 11 and under.  And her husband recently died of ALS after a years long battle with it.  Horrible tragedy. So -really -someone who has 3 or 4 kids and a healthy husband wants to play this comparison game? Of course not.  What's the point.  Just support people for whatever jobs they choose and never presume someone without children is "carefree" and "non-motherly."  Please.  

Hey Batya,

Good point. Someone is always worse off or, ya just never know their situation. What is hard for someone else is easy for another. Children or no children. 

My husband works away a lot, I have full days and nights in long rows absolutely solo with no help whatsoever. 3 month old baby, 2 year old girl and a 3 year old boy. We have just moved house and are buying. It's all been quite stressful. And my husband having his own business, because of covid and the Government practically making it illegal for you to operate and make money, we lost over 100K in one year. We aren't flashy rich. It was a mega hit. 

But then, you have military wives who's husbands are away for months on end on a tour, things like that. You have single parent situations, divorces, etc. It can all get real rough. I often think myself very lucky. 

This discussion has been pretty cool. I like hearing everyones different perspectives and situations.

Lo x

 

[Fudgie]

I like what you said, Lo. You're right, it could always be worse/different.

Of course, someone else's "worse" is someone else's "better".

I feel that I've been rather blessed in life overall, lucky to have been born into the lot that I was. I've had a lot of opportunities and I jumped on them. Outside of my current circumstances (school AND working fulltime), I feel that my life is fairly good and compared to most people, low stress and I have a lot of leisure time. 

That said, being very honest, my stress/unhappiness stems from mental illness and some other internal issues, not so much my life circumstances, external stressors, etc. I am well-treated and very high functioning and those around me would never guess it, but yeah, it's something I have to continually work on - for the record, I was diagnosed with severe major depressive disorder when I was pretty young.

My life lacks a lot of the "hard" bits that many people have in their lives but I've largely done that to myself in order to maximize both my productivity and enjoyment in life. The trade-off is that I'm pretty isolated so that I do get lonely sometimes and I don't have a "tribe" or people to lean on outside of family, it's only me. When I have a large financial cost (car breaks down) or a bad work day, it only falls to me. 

But all things considered, it could be so much worse. I keep that in mind everyday.