Unfortunately Money Is A Factor

[dias]

6 hours ago, mylolita said:

 We are animals after all. 

Amen sister!

Btw, do you have any single sisters/cousins like you? I am interested! I am not kidding!

[Batya33]

A cleaner doesn’t get you even close to completing the daily activities.  Maybe a live in housekeeper. 

[Jibralta]

17 hours ago, mylolita said:

my husband has been the sole provider since I was about 26 (before we had children!) and since I have lived with him (14 years) he has never once so much as even placed an empty cup in the sink. I repeat - he does absolutely zero housework. Ever. But I do zero work, apart from housework. That is our traditional arrangement!

I think that's a lovely arrangement. The key is finding the balance that makes both people happy.

[Fudgie]

13 hours ago, dias said:

You don't need to "take a step back in career/manage house". You hire a cleaner. Not all men who make a decent salary want kids. There is no reason to put your career on hold unless you have kids.  

Cleaners only take about 25% of domestic chores. All the cooking, laundry, household management, errands, etc. usually fall to the woman. 

I understand that this has not been the experience of many posters here and I am glad for people, but from what I've experienced, it's been quite different, from what I've seen in my family, friends, etc. Even the women who make way more money than the guy have to do all of that. 

Of course any guy is going to say "oh no I'll gladly help" if he likes the woman and wants to be with her. But what about when the true colors come out? 

It's really not as bad easy as you think it would be. It's easier for you to find someone in that traditional role than it is to find someone for the complete opposite who isn't a boring POS. 

[Batya33]

I never asked my husband if he would “help” because it’s really not a helping role.  It’s just sharing in responsibilities.  Sharing. Whatever feels fair.  Not some scorecard. Or making someone do something they hate doing because it’s “equal” that way.  But that’s just me. But I get what you’re saying.  It wasn’t important to me to ask if he’d share in housekeeping. Or cooking.   Never really occurred to me to ask. But planning to have a baby and having and raising a child - crucial.  That he was over the top enthusiastic and I just knew he’d want to be a parent with all that means. I saw how he was with his family and people.  
I do think it might be more important for women who know they’ll only be happy if they work full time and pursue a career and promotions while being a parent. The “my child needs a happy balanced parent and I’m only going to be happy if I still pursue my career and work full time”

Then you need lots of extra resources and money to make that happen even with two parents. Or a couple who wants kids but can only afford it with two income family. 
And yes a woman who wants a house and wants it decorated and to a specific level of neatness and money to renovate the kitchen needs to find a partner who will be up for being part of that goal or have the money for full time cleaning etc help.
 I know it’s not easy for people who want that and for women who value a relationship where housekeeping responsibilities are divided equally otherwise it feels unfair to them. it’s not something I relate to and I can see where others might find it important. 

[gamon]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:23 PM, Fudgie said:

EMTs make a little above minimum wage. If money is that important to you, I wouldn't waste this guy's time with meeting up or talking to him further. Just my $0.02.

Due to inflation now it’s your $0.03 

[maritalbliss86]

On 11/19/2021 at 5:40 PM, Batya33 said:

It's silly to do what you suggested -for a man or woman -on a dating profile -in fact it shows the person lacks common sense and emotional intelligence.

Right... I agree with A LOT that this other side is presenting (not just Waffle, but others, too 🙂).  But um... maybe having a selection of pictures that are more normal... and throw in one bikini one at the end or something LOL  .... make them drool 🙂 

[maritalbliss86]

On 11/19/2021 at 7:18 PM, Fudgie said:

I was always more of a bookworm.

yes... I've always identified more with Bell from Beauty and the Beast.  But ironically, especially in my early 20's, people thought I looked too pretty/hot to be smart LOL  Very interesting experiment

[waffle]

5 hours ago, maritalbliss86 said:

Right... I agree with A LOT that this other side is presenting (not just Waffle, but others, too 🙂).  But um... maybe having a selection of pictures that are more normal... and throw in one bikini one at the end or something LOL  .... make them drool 🙂 

The point is that it's your attractiveness that matters.  That's it.  If it was your job/income/success that mattered, then you'd be posting that on dating sites instead of pictures.  I'm not saying it should be that way or it shouldn't be that way, I'm saying it IS that way.

[maritalbliss86]

18 minutes ago, waffle said:

The point is that it's your attractiveness that matters.  That's it.  If it was your job/income/success that mattered, then you'd be posting that on dating sites instead of pictures.  I'm not saying it should be that way or it shouldn't be that way, I'm saying it IS that way.

Yes, but don't you think it is more nuanced than that in real life though?  If a bikini picture is her profile picture (!!) normal, high-ranking men will probably steer clear.  Because that one decision she made just screams drama and high-maintenance (and like Batya said, "low emotional intelligence," in that she couldn't see how she'd come across).  Or the higher ranking men will most likely only want to use her and move on when they finally marry.

Men want a lady in the street and you know what in bed 😉 usually....

[waffle]

38 minutes ago, maritalbliss86 said:

If a bikini picture is her profile picture ....

You're overthinking.  It really is very simple.

Try the experiment I mentioned and report the results back to us.

[maritalbliss86]

46 minutes ago, waffle said:

You're overthinking.  It really is very simple.

Try the experiment I mentioned and report the results back to us.

Hard pass!  LOL

 

[Fudgie]

1 hour ago, waffle said:

The point is that it's your attractiveness that matters.  That's it.  If it was your job/income/success that mattered, then you'd be posting that on dating sites instead of pictures.  I'm not saying it should be that way or it shouldn't be that way, I'm saying it IS that way.

I mean, to be fair, I used to have minimal photos (and I am plain, not very attractive, no make up, photos were not particularly flattering, no revealing clothes) and my profile focused on my internal strengths and interests and I would still get responses from men, men who seemed genuinely interested in me as a person. This applied to back when I was obese as well. 

That said, it wasn't TONS of men. But some. Just some. 

Sex appeal will ALWAYS get you more attention and the better looking you are, the more it nets. But it's not to say that physical attractiveness will make or break you completely. It means you have to have other things to offer if you don't have it, and you have to market yourself well. And very attractive women can still struggle in relationships if they are THAT bad in personality.

It's just life. If your values or desires don't line up that way, you don't have to play along but it may equal to more struggle in finding someone or maybe not finding anyone worthy at all. And that may be okay. 

[Cherylyn]

The #1 reason why my parents had very heated arguments (fights) was due to lack of money and in their case, big debts as well.  I don't know what most couples argue about but lack of money is one of the major reasons why many couples argue. 

Of course, other factors especially high quality character is tantamount.  However, if there are a lot of arguments due to lack of money, constant hardship and struggle, the relationship will not endure and bound to fail sooner or later. 

I agree, yes, money does matter and love does not conquer all.  Hence, "love doesn't pay the rent." 

Generally, a financially stable home life has one less thing to worry about and money does make life more comfortable.  Most established marriages and family lives have a comfortable standard of living. 

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, maritalbliss86 said:

Right... I agree with A LOT that this other side is presenting (not just Waffle, but others, too 🙂).  But um... maybe having a selection of pictures that are more normal... and throw in one bikini one at the end or something LOL  .... make them drool 🙂 

I had one photo of me in a cocktail dress but a simple black dress and not skimpy or in your face sexy.  I never ever wanted someone to get the impression that I’d flaunt my body for strangers on a dating profile. I did indicate that I was slim as this was a huge positive when I dated in the city in which I dated but I never wanted someone to be interested in me because I looked sexy in a photo. Or give off that impression. Also risky because I don’t blame the victim but a man who had the wrong impression was more likely to pressure for sex. 

[Batya33]

5 hours ago, waffle said:

The point is that it's your attractiveness that matters.  That's it.  If it was your job/income/success that mattered, then you'd be posting that on dating sites instead of pictures.  I'm not saying it should be that way or it shouldn't be that way, I'm saying it IS that way.

I think attractiveness is far more obvious in person than in a photo other than for people looking for arm candy or a trophy boyfriend or girlfriend based on looks. 

[Jibralta]

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I think attractiveness is far more obvious in person than in a photo other than for people looking for arm candy or a trophy boyfriend or girlfriend based on looks. 

When I first did online dating, that's what I hoped too. This was back when I was in my mid- to late-20s, so around 2004. It was eHarmony and I set it up to release my photo after 3-4 message volleys. I wanted guys who were interested in my profile more than my looks. And it worked. I did get dates.

But when I did online dating again in 2009, I got zero interest until I posted photos. Times had changed and I got the message: Physical attractiveness is pretty much the number one concern for people who are looking for a romantic relationship. Compatibility on other levels is secondary. If you don't pass through the gate of physical attraction, those other levels don't matter. 

Is that smart? I don't know. But I once tried dating a guy who I wasn't physically attracted to and it was unpleasant. I never did that again. I'm not looking for arm candy; I just draw the line at a physical relationship with anyone that I am not physically attracted to. Emotional and intellectual attraction do not make up for physical attraction. All three must be there.

I agree that you can't really determine attractiveness until you meet in person. Photos can misrepresent. I've found that they were usually more flattering rather than less so, and the quick meet in person got to the bottom of that right away. Photos were still the first 'gate,' so to speak. If I didn't like the photos, I didn't go forward. Yes, personality goes a long way, but it doesn't go that far. 

Now, having been in a relationship with my partner for nearly 10 years, physical attractiveness takes a back seat. We can gain and lose weight, have bad breath, have greasy hair, be a little stinky.... the love would still be there. We could (god forbid) become physically handicapped or disfigured and the love would still be there. But that is after years of growing the relationship. 

[dias]

39 minutes ago, Jibralta said:

If I didn't like the photos, I didn't go forward. Yes, personality goes a long way, but it doesn't go that far

Ts ts ts you are being superficial now, you are influenced by the wrong ENA members 

[Fudgie]

10 hours ago, Cherylyn said:

The #1 reason why my parents had very heated arguments (fights) was due to lack of money and in their case, big debts as well.  I don't know what most couples argue about but lack of money is one of the major reasons why many couples argue.  

It's fascinating how our families of origin influence our outlook of relationships. 

I grew up well-off, parents fought often over many things but not money, lots of resentment on both sides, just emotional stuff, past trauma, etc. You could feel the tension. I never saw them kiss or hug unless it was an anniversary. I was my father's crutch, his confidante, and this was inappropriate and messed me up deeply. My parents relationship is a lot better now, they are still together, but I will forever have the scars. 

I saw how my parents treated each other, I saw my dad refuse to contribute to household chores despite both of my parents pulling 60-80 hr weeks in high paying, intense careers. I hated how he did that. Money was never an issue but everything else was. 

I have a very negative personal opinion of marriage that is now leaking into my opinion of relationships, I was sterilized in my mid 20s, I won't be a parental figure because I can't trust that I won't repeat the same toxic patterns, and I poured myself into other pursuits, assuming that I would be "on my own" for the most part and I wanted to make a lot of money on my own (now I do). 

I've been in therapy for a long time and worked on myself a lot. I've accepted, "this is as good as it gets". I can't get rid of my personal lifelong revulsion toward marriage and other things and at this point, I'm okay with that. 

My grandmother grew up with a poor dad with many debts. It's feast or famine in my family, either you're rich or you're struggling. Money was scarce for her, she married very well, but the pattern of mental illness and bad dynamics continued. 

The only person who understands me in this regard is my cousin, who grew up in the same family, grew up wealthy, parallel to me, and also has a strong revulsion to marriage and children, no partners. 

The family tree ends here.

[maritalbliss86]

4 hours ago, Fudgie said:

It's fascinating how our families of origin influence our outlook of relationships. 

I grew up well-off, parents fought often over many things but not money, lots of resentment on both sides, just emotional stuff, past trauma, etc. You could feel the tension. I never saw them kiss or hug unless it was an anniversary. I was my father's crutch, his confidante, and this was inappropriate and messed me up deeply. My parents relationship is a lot better now, they are still together, but I will forever have the scars. 

I saw how my parents treated each other, I saw my dad refuse to contribute to household chores despite both of my parents pulling 60-80 hr weeks in high paying, intense careers. I hated how he did that. Money was never an issue but everything else was. 

I have a very negative personal opinion of marriage that is now leaking into my opinion of relationships, I was sterilized in my mid 20s, I won't be a parental figure because I can't trust that I won't repeat the same toxic patterns, and I poured myself into other pursuits, assuming that I would be "on my own" for the most part and I wanted to make a lot of money on my own (now I do). 

I've been in therapy for a long time and worked on myself a lot. I've accepted, "this is as good as it gets". I can't get rid of my personal lifelong revulsion toward marriage and other things and at this point, I'm okay with that. 

My grandmother grew up with a poor dad with many debts. It's feast or famine in my family, either you're rich or you're struggling. Money was scarce for her, she married very well, but the pattern of mental illness and bad dynamics continued. 

The only person who understands me in this regard is my cousin, who grew up in the same family, grew up wealthy, parallel to me, and also has a strong revulsion to marriage and children, no partners. 

The family tree ends here.

I had a similar experience, but of course different in many ways.  

I love my parents, but they had/have a messed up relationship.  A lot of that went into what I decided to do as far as choosing a different kind of spouse for myself (even though I love my dad and still get along really well with him).  My husband is opposite of my dad in the ways I felt like my dad failed, but then the same as him in the ways where I felt my dad succeeded.  That was on purpose though.  I knew what I wanted at 20 years old somehow.

There are many things both of them did that as a child, I swore I would never do.  I think that's normal... I think it's called something along the lines of, "vows one makes as a child," from the things they see that they just *know* deep down aren't right.  Sometimes they can be a little off, logically, and need tweaking when they're more mature in adulthood, but most times those, "vows," a child makes are actually valid, good decisions.

As a side note... when we didn't have any money we still NEVER fought over money.  So I understand the money argument, it definitely makes things easier, but fighting can happen over literally anything, especially if one or both of the partners just have a difficult personality/bad character.

[Cherylyn]

5 hours ago, Fudgie said:

 

Thank you for sharing, Fudgie.

I agree, it's fascinating to know the various reasons regarding why marriages and families are so dysfunctional and broken. 

Like you, my parents also carried past trauma and very painful baggage with them into their marriage and family life.  I never saw my parents hug either and they would bad mouth each other to me which placed me in a very awkward, uncomfortable position. 

Like you again, my parents soured my image of marriage.  I've also worked with a lot of typical men who are a representation of how society is.  In my teen years and around age 20 and 21, I truly did not look forward to marriage because I thought most marriages would disintegrate eventually.  Marriage left a very negative impression on me at an early age. 

If my late father didn't contribute to household chores, my mother and I would've been fine with it as long as he could bring home the bacon AND behave like a decent human being.  He did neither.  He gave my mother a very hard life. 

My late, alcoholic, chain-smoking father punched my mother's teeth out numerous times.  We couldn't afford to get her teeth fixed.  We couldn't afford to pay out-of-pocket for a dentist nor doctor.  We never had medical and dental insurance! 

My house was in dilapidated shambles so embarrassing that I dare not invite friends for fear of shame and humiliation. 

I grew up living a hand-to-mouth existence with insurmountable debts.  Money makes life comfortable when there is food on the table, no worries regarding ending up on the street and never worrying about daily survival.   My siblings and I wore holes in our clothing and shoes which were too tight because my parents couldn't afford to replace them.  I was bullied and ostracized during my youth. 

It was pure dumb luck when I met my husband, the love of my life.  Fortunately, he hails from an amazing family who is normal, nurturing, loving, respectful and the way life should be.  His father treats his mother like a queen.  Naturally, my husband and his brother are great men, husbands and  fathers because they had observed their father behave honorably towards their mother, children and everyone.  My in-laws set the bar very high.  My marriage and family life is very similar to theirs and they were very positive role models for my husband and me.  My in-laws are the polar opposite of my late father and my mother's marriage.  My in-laws are the epitome of what marriage and family life should be. 

Since high quality character combines with sound economics, this existence equals a stable, harmonious marriage and family life.  There can't be one without the other otherwise a household disintegrates.  Therefore, for the OP, booziebunny83, yes, money does indeed matter very much. 

Having lived on both sides of the fence, financial hardship and struggle was a constant nightmare.  High quality character and stable economics is a recipe for a content, harmonious, secure life. 

My cousin grew up poor but she prospered in adulthood.  I could relate to her for a while.  However, she married a man who is a "bad apple." Therefore, her life spiraled downhill quickly.  Unfortunately, due to her miserable marriage with her husband and children, it affected my cousin-ship with her very negatively to the point of disaster so we parted ways.  It was for the best.  I'm no longer in "hero mode" and I only surround myself with people who know how to treat me with respect.

[itsallgrand]

Given your story Cherylyn, it makes total sense why you feel as you do. It's like they say, it's easy to not care about money when you have money. If you've experienced how bad it can be when there is truly a struggle for survival, things tend to look different. 

I didn't grow up in such harsh circumstances. My parents were loving, both worked hard. We never had a lot of money but I never worried about it either, until our family came on some tragic times. Then I got a taste, and it was really hard for quite the time. 

It shaped me to a degree, the self sufficiency I learned growing up became even more important to me. I didn't ever want to be at the hands of someone else for my security. 

My partner grew up with a lot more luxury than I. Ok, he grew up rich. But his parents are both self made, both shared in work in and out of the house, and his parents raised him to earn his own way. He has an excellent work ethic and we both share in all the work together. It's awesome when you find someone who shares your values, because otherwise, I'd be single lol. 

I just want to acknowledge the feeling you talk about "doing things for survival". I've felt that in my own way, you never forget it, you never forget we are on this delicate ledge and it's not just other people who it can happen to. 

 

[Tonight.majestic]

On 11/19/2021 at 6:02 PM, waffle said:

If you read the topics on this board, the men who are considering asking out a particular woman or choosing between 2 - 3 - 4 women, you'll notice that her income/success is never even mentioned.  Ever.  Her attractiveness always is, and if there is more than one woman the most attractive one will always be identified right away.

Try this experiment.  Create a dating profile online and put up pictures of you in a business suit giving a work presentation, and list your achievements and qualifications.  Then at some point switch it up and take those things down but put up a pic of yourself in a bikini.  Which version of your profile do you think will get the most attention?

You're right. 

Youth and attractiveness will push a man a little more, especially if he's successful. 

Whenever I did dating apps, I barely put anything about myself, just a few pictures. I had tons of messages. Then one day I got curious to see what would be the equivalent of a male on a dating app. So I picked a few pics of a decent looking guy with minimal info. Barely any responses. Then I switched it up and put in some fancy profession aka physician. Oh, this got more hits from the ladies. So, there ya go.  

[Kwothe28]

If we are talking dating apps, men in general are at extreme disadvatage there. Mostly because large number of men competes for a smaller ammount of females so you would have to really be top percent in terms of looks or something you offer to actually get what average female could get normally. Women in average match with 36% of men who they like. Want to know men percentage? 2%. Admittedly, that also means that females are more picky because they like somebody rarely rarely but get the matches while average men would like and like to get a few of them. But they can be picky because, again, its a big pool competing for them. And this is not out of my head, there is an actual research supporting this. 

[dias]

11 hours ago, Tonight.majestic said:

Then I switched it up and put in some fancy profession aka physician. 

Physician? Pfff I can  understand if you wrote data engineer but physician? Meh...