Unfortunately Money Is A Factor

[East4]

1 hour ago, itsallgrand said:

And the bias... Hell, it popped up in a post of East's. " You can talk about these things once you have kids". Or things like " as a mother... Ahem... Major authority here".

there is no bias, nor authority here, only stating my opinion, based on personal experience as mother. 

[Jibralta]

1 hour ago, itsallgrand said:

I think honestly some people, as Jib said, don't know themselves and don't want to even. Just fill the void.... Some people it's drugs, food, some people have kids to fill it. Not all parents! Obviously! But do some do it because it's an easy "answer"... I have no doubt. For a lot of people on this planet still, too, having kids is seen as an inevitability still.

About 10 years ago, there was this awesome comic in Wired magazine. I wish wish wish that I could find it again, but to date I have not been able to.

Anyway, it's a guy and a girl having a conversation at a crisis stage in their relationship. Things aren't the same; the relationship has become a routine. They're not sure what they really want. What are they doing? Where is this going? Should they really be together? Have they chosen the right person? Is this what life is all about? Then, in the final frame, the girl says, "Let's have a baby." And that's how it ends.

I thought that was a great synopsis of a lot of the decisions I was seeing among my peers. When people don't know what they want, they feel restless and uncertain. Sometimes it's tempting to resort to 'the inevitable' as 'the answer': Of course this is what I want; it's what everyone does. Once I do the normal thing I will feel more normal.

[itsallgrand]

8 minutes ago, East4 said:

there is no bias, nor authority here, only stating my opinion, based on personal experience as mother. 

I took issue with how you went at dias, implying his opinion is not of equal weight until he has kids. 

This may sound harsh, but making kids requires no particular skills, just the working parts. So I fail to see how impregnating or getting pregnant suddenly makes a person more qualified to weigh in. 

Your experience is valid and it's yours. So is his. 

Someone telling me they are a mother though tells me nothing as far as what they actually know though. Plenty of folks without kids have the experience of caring for kids and insight, plenty with kids don't. 

 

[mylolita]

1 hour ago, East4 said:

 Interesting , you are so occupied, but it takes the time to post postings the size of a Bible and in foreign language...seems like you rather need an intelligent adult conversation, eh? I wrote about it 🙂 there's nothing wrong in admitting that being stay home mom is boring and not enough sometimes. 

As a rule of thumb, when somebody loudly professes something, a bit too loudly, my gut instinct is to not believe it. When one is genuinely happy/fulfilled, one does not need a display in neon lights.

Hi East,

 

I short hand and touch type, used to work in a legal office, I play this keyboard like the bongos. Ain’t nothing but a 5 minute reply 😉 

 

If you want to think even after I explain myself that I secretly hate motherhood then that is your projection, not mine. We don’t know each other. I am an honest person, I wouldn’t fluff the cushions just to make myself feel better or be something I’m not. I have other interests beside being a mother, I speak to plenty of different people daily including my kids. It doesn’t mean that interest has to be a career or I am somehow unfulfilled.

 

I think you are actually being quite rude!

 

 

[mylolita]

And to give you the benefit of the doubt East - just because I openly profess my love for my husband or champion my time at home with my kids doesn’t mean that I enjoy these things manically every second of every day. No one is like that.

 

I have had dramatic, huge arguments with my husband before. I have had almost mental breakdowns with sleepless nights only recently because of my new born and having two toddlers under 3 at the same time. I have taken keys to the car and drove off. It doesn’t mean I want a career or am not fulfilled. I have also cried with pure joy and love.

 

Motherhood is extremely hard. Insanely hard to be in it full time, I think why the women working at the office used to joke they came to work for a break. The path of raising kids up 24/7 with hardly any help is no small feat. It takes everything you have. It definitely isn’t ladies what lunch and snoozes in the afternoon and wine at 5pm. Well, not for me anyway. But would I change anything? Not one thing. Even though it has been desperately hard sometimes we keep having more babies because I adore being a mother, with the ups and the downs.

 

Even though I don’t have to work, I still choose full time motherhood over all other options. That’s just the truth. If you want to work alternative motives into that then you can but it’s nothing to do with the way my life is.

 

I am far from perfect. My kids aren’t perfect. My husband isn’t either. Am I gleefully happy skipping around all day? Definitely not. Are women who have a career? All I hear is them complaining just the same as stay at home mums. Seems both paths have their different challenges. Which you prefer I guess falls in your personality and what you want and value in life, is different for everyone.

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

You are not just somebody who just needs to take care of his/her own needs, you need to take care of your kid in a big way.

Many people without children have to take care of others' needs - aging parents, sibs with special needs/medical conditions, work-related needs (mine -the latter-chose a job where I was basically on call 24/7).  Husband is an only child whose parents had him later in life so they aged and it all fell on him.  I was stigmatized with the label "single/crazy life" "single and carefree" - maybe for some.  Not true for me or for so many people I know.  

I didn't have that "suddenly" experience when I became a mom at 42.  I had a lot of experience with babies/young kids over the years (through work for a few years) plus I'd worked so hard at my career the unpredictability and having to be available 24/7 made it a much easier transition.

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

I wrote about it 🙂 there's nothing wrong in admitting that being stay home mom is boring and not enough sometimes. 

I was not bored for the first 5 years - once he was in kindergarten I wasn't bored but did have the desire to return to outside work. I returned once I found the right job when he was 7.  All jobs are boring sometimes.  All jobs are not enough sometimes -with rare exception.  My background and experience is similar to Lolita's (but only one child and couldn't drive off -don't drive lol). 

I had intelligent conversations at least daily.  I stayed up on current events and continued my bookworm ways.  I tried to avoid talking about baby/kid stuff with my husband and friends - but my inlaws and parents and sister couldn't get enough of it.  I don't relate to why moms post photos of their kids and the cute things they say on social media if they do so to hundreds of friends.  I am fully aware that what's adorable and fascinating to me about my child is boring to almost anyone else.  And that's ok!

[mylolita]

6 hours ago, Jibralta said:

I think it comes down to the fact that very few people truly know themselves. Seems outrageous, but it's true. Most people don't think about what they are doing; they simply follow the path of least resistance. Some of them wander down the marriage and children path, and finally 'wake up' in the thick of things, wondering how and why they got there.

For me, it was almost pure dumb luck that I never wandered down that path because I didn't truly realize that I didn't want my own family until I was in my mid thirties. If things had gone differently for me, I would certainly be one of those lost souls wailing in the mom groups. 

Jibralta,

 

You are your own person and do your own thing and for that I can’t give anyone anything but admiration and respect! 
 

The variation of life choice and what people value through this discussion is evidence enough that we really are all not the same! That’s good!

 

And thank you so much for the compliment. It has taken me aback, especially because you are so eloquent and creative. I don’t want to give the impression I am ever trying hard when I reply on here but I genuinely love writing, and love debating (you don’t take politics and NOT enjoy a good “discussion” 😉) It’s all BS anyway 🤣 

 

Wonder what the OP thinks… LOLZZZZ!

 

Surprised this hasn’t been closed and *** down. Almost feel like we need in the ‘Off Topic’ club a section for just random discussions and debates!

 

Lo x

[mylolita]

5 hours ago, Batya33 said:

This is an excellent point.  Do you feel like this is exarcebated by those that choose motherhood in their 20s as opposed to later? I really am not sure.  My niece is now a 25 year old married mom of 3 -yes 3 kids ages newborn-7 I think (oldest is 6 or 7).  Married at 17, for love -like over the moon love -but --- 17.  She has no marketable skills.  High school education. Is she smart -yes, she is.  I am not saying uneducated=not smart. But as a practical level other than experience in child care/babysitting (she was my mother's helper part time for two summers as well) -no marketable skills if heaven forbid something happened to her husband/his business.  She is happy and now has a lot of outside help thank goodness plus my sister/the grandma.  But I feel this is a very fragile situation, as an outsider, despite it being a good marriage (she's been with him a dozen years).

Lolita - I wanted to say -too much to quote- I love your posts on this and other topics.  I like the sense of insight, humility, warmth and thoughtfulness you bring to your input and advise.  Thank you.  Also you're a good writer- I can see/imagine what you're referring to for sure!

Batya!

 

Oh wow, thank you ☺️ I know we sometimes have a difference of opinion but that’s not always a bad thing. I always admire how much time and effort you take to reply and help others as well. I just lurk on here and pounce on things that personally interest me so it’s all pretty selfish really but, you and other posters are here all the time giving much insight and support and without the core of yourself and others there really wouldn’t be much too this forums so! With that said! Thank you right back atcha!

 

Lo x

[itsallgrand]

46 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Many people without children have to take care of others' needs - aging parents, sibs with special needs/medical conditions, work-related needs (mine -the latter-chose a job where I was basically on call 24/7).  Husband is an only child whose parents had him later in life so they aged and it all fell on him.  I was stigmatized with the label "single/crazy life" "single and carefree" - maybe for some.  Not true for me or for so many people I know.  

I didn't have that "suddenly" experience when I became a mom at 42.  I had a lot of experience with babies/young kids over the years (through work for a few years) plus I'd worked so hard at my career the unpredictability and having to be available 24/7 made it a much easier transition.

Yeah, I'm trying not to get emotional about it but when people say things like that, implying you don't know how it is to put someone else first or to care for anyone if you don't have kids/until you have kids, it does upset me. It's so inaccurate and it's a dig, whether it's intentional or not. 

I was 14 when I learned to empty catheter bags, change wound dressings, and was reading the blinks of eyes to communicate with my loved one. I did nothing but go to school, do housework, cook, study, and care for the people I love. I mean, that's part of my story and my life. 

Some people say "ah you don't know real sacrifice and love until you are a mother". I call bull. I've known it, and I don't begrudge it either, I did it because it was so so important to me to be there and do everything in my power for those I care about. And I'd do it again, no questions, if the need comes up. 

It's just so stupid, sorry not sorry. It's not the roles we take, it's what kind of person are you. Good parents were good people before they took on that role. They'd be awesome either way, going the distance for people. And those who don't aren't all magically changed because baby. 

OK I'm done now thanks. 

[mylolita]

4 hours ago, itsallgrand said:

Mylolita, I think truly we get the judgement no matter what... We being humans. I've gotten it for not having kids, others get it for being working moms, others for being SAHMs, and it always will be something!! Got one kid?! When are you giving them a brother or sister?! 😂

I have seen the vacant eyed no identity besides being a mom crowd though. I think honestly some people, as Jib said, don't know themselves and don't want to even. Just fill the void.... Some people it's drugs, food, some people have kids to fill it. Not all parents! Obviously! But do some do it because it's an easy "answer"... I have no doubt. For a lot of people on this planet still, too, having kids is seen as an inevitability still. You just do it. There's still boatloads of baggage associated with that, where not everyone really is freely choosing. We are still in the dark ages for reproductive choice in so many ways. And the bias... Hell, it popped up in a post of East's. " You can talk about these things once you have kids". Or things like " as a mother... Ahem... Major authority here". 

I'm all over the place here but I truly think there's still a lot of romantizing about motherhood. Yay for every person who is a parent and loves it, has the skills, has the commitment and passion to do it. That makes me happy, that's great for kids. But for every person like that, there's someone who is half assing it or worse. There's no magic potion that makes women specially qualified because they give birth, there isn't, it's part of the romanticizing. Children will call out for, love, cherish, go to those who are there for them and doing the work. The work I totally acknowledge it is to nurture a young life. 

I've mentioned this before, but I used to work with kids in bad situations... Won't elaborate too much now. It has shown me a lot about and shaped some of these views. I 100% with all my heart believe it's not about blood or gender, what kids need, it's about who will step up and just give them consistently what they need. 

 

 

It’sallgrand,

 

I am sorry you have been judged for being without kids. I can say I never look at women who choose or can’t have children any differently. I know that sounds lame but peoples lives are complex and everyone has their unique circumstances and you just don’t know what is going on. If I meet a woman who doesn’t have kids I find myself laughing and saying with a wink, “That’s why you look so fresh and rested” 😉

 

Just because I have 3 children also doesn’t give me major authority on the subject over someone who has 1 or none or 7 even. Okay I have first hand real life experience of certain things but I don’t claim to know more about it all. I mean, I always joke that I wing it everyday and that by my third people think I would have this down but I sometimes feel as clueless as I did the day my first son was placed in my arms! 
 

I take peoples advice with a pinch of salt. You have to walk your own path and learn from your own mistakes.

 

Guess we are all in this thing called life together ay 😉

 

Lo x

[mylolita]

3 hours ago, Jibralta said:

About 10 years ago, there was this awesome comic in Wired magazine. I wish wish wish that I could find it again, but to date I have not been able to.

Anyway, it's a guy and a girl having a conversation at a crisis stage in their relationship. Things aren't the same; the relationship has become a routine. They're not sure what they really want. What are they doing? Where is this going? Should they really be together? Have they chosen the right person? Is this what life is all about? Then, in the final frame, the girl says, "Let's have a baby." And that's how it ends.

I thought that was a great synopsis of a lot of the decisions I was seeing among my peers. When people don't know what they want, they feel restless and uncertain. Sometimes it's tempting to resort to 'the inevitable' as 'the answer': Of course this is what I want; it's what everyone does. Once I do the normal thing I will feel more normal.

This is a true observation Jib!

 

I am often nosey and want to secretly ask people how they came about having kids, if they were planned etc but I know that is totally weird and taboo but it does cross my mind! Gotta say!

 

I admire your decisions Jib. From the outset here it looks like you have a very fulfilled, chilled, fantastic life with a man who adores you and he seems like your ying to your yang. You seem very respected in your career and a hard worker, but with a fab sense of humour. I would’ve loved working along side you! Hey, when I was in my 20s, ya could’ve had me as a personal assistant. Do you need any typing? Answering calls? Mingling and schmoozing of clients? 🤣 Coffee making? 🤣 All in a past life! Now my breakfast is a coffee followed by a red bull chaser before the kids jump all over me and tell me to put some makeup on - HA!

 

Lo x

[Kwothe28]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

Many people without children have to take care of others' needs - aging parents, sibs with special needs/medical conditions, work-related needs (mine -the latter-chose a job where I was basically on call 24/7). 

I know, I did my own with my professional work and taking care of children with special needs a while ago. My comment was more in the line of that lots of people, kids or no kids of their own, arent ready for that role change. My friend has a "godmother"(here in some cases you take your best friend as godmother or godfather for the wedding). Anyway, her godmother is exactly the case we are talking about here. Was always "full of life", married young after high school and got the kid few years after that. But never been able to fully accept the role as a mother. She goes to work, goes to drinks with colleagues after, goes to gym, goes in bars every weekend with friends, lives that full life. The kid? Its either in kindergarden, or with dad, or in most cases gets thrown with grandparents that extremely spoiled him. She maybe has a marriage, and a kid, but acts like she doesnt have them most of the time. Those are exactly the types that would give you "OMG dont ever lose yourself" advice. 

Just so we are clear, I am not saying that she should be some "stay at home, look the kid 24/7" kind of mom. I think its extremely important for both sides to have more then just family life, which would include work, hobbies, even going out with friends. Just that having a family and especially kids requires certain "sacrifices". Your life changes and so is your schedule. Times that you had for yourself before are indeed replaced and you have to adapt if you are going to be a true partner and parent. 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Your life changes and so is your schedule. Times that you had for yourself before are indeed replaced and you have to adapt if you are going to be a true partner and parent. 

What you described I don't personally consider a "full life" -that's her interpretation or yours.  And sure some people who are not in a relationship or who do not have children have more time to themselves.  And some don't.  And some don't want time to themselves- don't need that time, love living a busy filled life.  I lived a full life when I was the full time caregiver.  It was filled with love, with joy, with power walks while my baby was in the stroller, with trips to the grocery store, chats with my husband, my mom, my mother in law on the phone.  Reading the same book to my toddler over and over and over again, building block towers, dumping cheerios out of a dump truck, reading Go Dog Go! during his bath.  That hooded towel after.  How is that not a full life?

I had a full life before him too - very different schedule it's true.  Late night work, late business dinners, lunch with friends, brunch where you wait in line to get in, nights at the theater or volunteering at a homeless shelter or at my book club or networking group.  Parties and game nights with friends, the gym at night instead of in the morning. 

I adapted easily.  Because I was over the moon to be a mom.  Felt like I won the lottery finding a great husband and partner in crime and getting pregnant at age 41 naturally. 

When you really want something so badly then hmmmmm it's easier to "adapt".  I embraced it, welcomed with open arms. And read Lolita's post - I had that downside too that she describes.  Doesn't make it anything less of a miracle.  Do I feel every day like I won the lottery? No.  Do I ever regret adapting to this different schedule, different role, different responsibilities - never ever ever.  

[Fudgie]

I think at the end of the day, we are all built differently and what is a full, good life varies for everyone. I don't think anyone can completely appreciate/understand the "other side(s)" but to know that they are there for others and to leave them be is enough, in my book. 

Kids are not my jam. They don't have a place in my life - I will not be a mother nor a mentor. I can't relate at all to the love, joy, and dedication that parents express. I know it's there but I can't completely understand that as I don't have it myself and never will. 

Live and let live, I'd say. Everyone is trying their best in this existence, finding meaning while also keeping oneself alive, sane, etc. 

[Batya33]

7 minutes ago, Fudgie said:

Kids are not my jam. They don't have a place in my life - I will not be a mother nor a mentor. I can't relate at all to the love, joy, and dedication that parents express. I know it's there but I can't completely understand that as I don't have it myself and never will. 

I feel that way about dog owners who regard their dog as their child, who draw comparisons in posts on Facebook when people post about their children, who don't understand why I don't want a strange dog approaching me/jumping on me "but she's so friendly!!" especially in an enclosed space because I never allowed my toddler to do that. 

Having said that I respect that relationship, that love, that dedication and I completely relate to how devastating it is if their furbaby is sick heaven forbid or worse.  I loved my cat like he was my sibling, growing up, my husband felt the same about his -and we wish we could have one now but it's not going to happen right now.  So it's strange I wouldn't relate. 

I think it's because I've seen over the years dog owners cater more and more to their dog's wants, preferences, etc- spend more $ on stuff for the dog, the perfect kennel, the perfect dog sitter, etc (I am not judging!! - just observing).  I do think it's an apt analogy because I have to pretend and say all the right things to good friends of mine who are dog owners especially if the dog has to come along to a meal because he can't be left alone for a few hours.  I too know it's there and know I will never feel that way -to that extent -about a dog -and therefore wouldn't want to take on the responsibility as it would not be fair to the dog.

Oh and I think social media has exacerbated the same thing for parents - the moms who spend $$$ on swaddling, on baby gear, on high tech high fashion strollers and diaper bags and themes for the 1st birthday party, who think that what was done in the past for free, using common sense now needs to have a label and a price tag. 

I love suggesting to moms who complain their toddler is bored of their toys to try things like collecting leaves, empty boxes to climb in and decorate maybe, making a game out of putting clothing in the dryer. Oh and that car seat cover you bought on amazon?? For air travel?  We used two kitchen size garbage bags, one for top, one for bottom.  Etc.

[Tinydance]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:20 AM, mylolita said:

Hey TinyDance!

 

I have always found it interesting how many women have silent “exit plans”! It’s a world away from how I think. If my husband was secretly or knowingly separating finances in some way into another account for a rainy day incase I slap him with a divorce or taking on extra work as a safety net incase things don’t work out I would be so offended and upset and it would feel like our marriage was already half over. A Plan B running in the background doesn’t seem… I don’t know. It’s not how I do it.

 

I always find it ironic as well, because I am always the most traditional, the most “indoor” homey of girls but in every female group I get into I am strangely the most free and independent. That seems wrong doesn’t it, when the other women talking to me have their financial independence and their own money in an account and other things but, here I am, with full choice. I can work, I can stay home, I can work part time. I could take on 4 degrees if I really wanted too. My husband supports be completely and has always, as soon as he was financially able, given me the biggest luxury of time and choice. 
 

I guess it might be unfair to maybe compare myself to other women because my situation is slightly unusual I guess. If anything did happen, we have assets I would sell, like an art collection, store of antiques, we have other properties that could be sold aside from our main house. Or, will do soon, just getting into buying property to let. 
 

I don’t know… all that aside, and with no plan apart from I love my husband and family with all my heart and know me and him are a sure thing till death do us part… I have what’s here (taps temple) and, I had that before I met him, while I am sitting here married and if anything ever happened too him. I’d figure it out. I know I can be resourceful if s**t hit the fan.

 

I once got into a debate that turned into an argument with a female friend. She had been married to a high flying banker. She got divorced from him and was left nothing but the house (it is worth over 2 million so she did okay) but, he legally shifted assets around so in the end, nothing else. She was stressing the point of needing a fall back and she accused me of not liking the way I spoke because it was too direct and she actually used the word “masculine” and, my tone is what she found offensive. The irony is, I am supposed to be the feeble, meek, submissive wifey and she was supposed to be the aged and now experienced independent woman. It just struck me at the time that it seemed like in our attitudes, we should have swapped titles at the time! 
 

Women have accused me of being chained to the sink but I’m no ritzy push over. I can understand some women feeling unsure, vulnerable, wanting to make a separate financial plan for themselves but there must be something in your marriage that is niggling at you to do that? Maybe even a past experience with your own parents divorcing? I don’t know, I kind of don’t even imagine a scenario where we would split. I know that sounds stupid because trust me there could be plenty but, how can you live your life always thinking or planning for the worst? Maybe I am a total fool! 
 

It’s not as if I am in this perfect marriage and we are perfect people either! God, we can argue. Maybe the types of arguments we’ve had would be grounds for divorces and splits in other relationships, I don’t know, other people have other expectations. 14 years isn’t that long in the scheme of things but, we’ve lasted up too now! Marrying your best friend helps I would say.

 

I am well aware my kids will leave and everyone, working or not, will feel that empty nest, how could you not? Just because I stay at home all day doesn’t mean I need to distract or fill my time. Plenty of things bump around in this noggin’ to keep me on the hamster wheel as it is! I tried hobbies and, they are a waste of time 😉 
 

I took up yoga once. Loved the leggings. I can see why people live in those things… LOL!

No exit plan for me yet, just gonna wing it and fly by the seat of my pants. Hope this isn’t going to jinx my life now!

 

I can see why other women feel the need to do this but it just makes my old romantic heart a little sad.

 

Lo x

Actually I wasn't talking about am "exit plan" or financial stability to be honest. I just think that working or at least volunteering is really good in the sense that it allows us to have a sense of identity, meeting people, learning new things, getting different experiences, getting our if the house. Of course the money is a bonus but to me it doesn't seem like the main benefit of working.

Of course not working doesn't necessarily mean that a person isn't intelligent and doesn't already have their own skills, hobbies and interests. Pursuing hobbies in your free time if you're not working can be a really good way to have a sense of  self identity.

I think there's nothing wrong with being a housewife if it suits the person and their family. I must add also that I don't have kids (yet) so I don't have any experience if being a stay at home mother at all.

I'm really not a homebody AT ALL though and if I stay home too much and don't work I go completely mental. I have a really outgoing and social personality and I NEED to be around people as much as possible. It's what makes me tick. I went completely crazy and depressed in the pandemic lockdowns. My job was cancelled for six months and I hated nor being able to work.

I'd love to have kids so of course I'd stay at home with them but when they're a bit older the idea would be to go back to work part-time. And hopefully my kids would enjoy going out places. For selfish reasons, so I could go out myself lol

[Tinydance]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:23 AM, mylolita said:

Hope my ‘The Shining’ reference was clear there or you might wonder what I’m going on about which ain’t nothing new!

 

Lo x

I got it, it's one of my favourite movies!

[Tinydance]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:45 AM, mylolita said:

And also, get your sick bucket out TinyDance but my biggest achievement is and will always be my children. I know that for a fact from deep in my heart. No career or money or piece of paper with a degree or certification on it is going to trump the three cherub faces me and my husband have somehow created. It’s been the biggest high, a real kicker! Other women might feel differently I don’t know.

 

And I also never got the identity thing when women mention that! Surely your kids aren’t you, who you marry, what job or hobbies you have? You are you, up or down, homeless or millionaire, you “soul” still burns inside you just the same from dawn till dusk? I don’t understand this idea that we lose it somehow like it blows away in the wind. I’ve been myself all my life, who I am is under no threat of being swept away by outside circumstances that change all the time, as life does. I could never get my head around that one.

 

If people mean getting lost and bogged down doing the same thing by it then I can understand that, maybe changing it up or switching direction to give yourself a shake but I don’t know. To me, Elvis Presley was Elvis Presley when he was being pulled along in an old potato sack in a dusty field by his mother, when he was all slicked back hair and rocker billy youth in the middle of his fame, and fat, sweating and bloated with bushy sideburns in a flare suit. All still Elvis. Different phases but, maybe it’s my thinking, I don’t get the lost identity thing women talk about?

 

I don’t mean that in a disrespectful or condescending way at all by the way Tiny, I just never understood what people meant by it and I hear it quite a bit, especially at Mum groups… “you have to keep your identity!” They say! Full of warning!

 

Maybe I will know what they mean a few years down the line. I am only 3 children and nearly 4 years of parenting deep - not long in the scheme of things!

 

Lo x

Well identity can be anything, it's what we are made up of. I agree with you that there are so many things that make-up someone's identity so even without a job of course a person doesn't lose it. Working is just a huge part of MY identity but that's just personal to me. For other people it might be something else, like you mentioned your children for example.

The thing though is that children grow up and become adults. Then they start living their own life and completely looking after themselves and living alone. So in that sense of course you can say that you've achieved something so amazing as raising these beautiful human beings. But I don't think then you can say that raising your children is part of your identity as such because you won't be raising them anymore. I think it's good to have your own life as well because the kids become adults eventually.

[Tinydance]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:32 AM, East4 said:

Back to the OP's question, indeed (and where is OP? That's the first long thread I've seen here, that seems to live a life of its own, with no OP's input).

To me earning power is a reasonable question in regards to a prospective husband. 

It is easier when both people come with similar financial capabilities. As early as at the dating stage, it can breed resentment if only one person pays for all outings, because he/she is wealthier than the other. And it can make the 'beneficiary' feel inadequate (provided he/she is not a mooch).

I remember some years ago went out for several months with a gentleman who was earning better than me. He loved to play golf at, I think, the most prestigious golf-club here. He invited me several times and I gladly obliged, but quickly realised that my normal sneakers did not fit that posh place. The golf shoes that were on offer in this club were priced at 300-400 euros, and I certainly did not want to spend this much on a pair of shoes. I also disliked the pressure to conform and to wear brand clothes, look and speak a certain way. 

We stopped dating, for other reasons too, but I remember the relief to feel well-dressed in Zara (regular dress shops in Europe) shirt and jeans 🙂

Been on the other side too: scaling down to low-cost dates, as the guy was short on cash, when it was his turn. Not cool either. This is why to me equality is best.

I also think that no matter how much her husband earns, a woman should always have her own source of income. It is hard to keep a relationship balanced, if one person is completely financially dependent on the other. 

 

Zara is great! We actually have it in Australia too. In Australia in regards to paying for dates and other things, it's actually pretty 50/50. Men don't really seem to pay for women anymore, except if it's something small like a coffee. Or basically you take turns paying for dates. So in this sense it does help to have a job if you're a woman! Lol

[Tinydance]

On 11/26/2021 at 2:52 PM, Batya33 said:

But why is it a "just"?  Most often being a housewife is very hard and challenging work albeit unpaid.  I know many housewives who have advanced degrees.  I was never a housewife or just a housewife.  Not my thing.  But I was the full time parent for 7 years.  Cooking/cleaning was very secondary to my role of working full time at caring for and raising our son.  My husband worked more than full time and traveled often and cared for his aging parents -- and was a very involved, boots on the ground, parent as much as possible during that time.

It's not "just" but I think if possible it's good for a woman to work at least a little once the children are a bit older. For example in Australia kids start going to school at five years old. They're at school Monday to Friday 9 a.m. - 3 p.m. So that allows for some time for a woman to work or volunteer maybe at least once or twice a week. I just like the idea of still working in order to meet new people, have friends and keep yourself engaged in the workforce. That's only my opinion though. I think there's nothing wrong with being a housewife and not working but this is what I would probably like to do myself.

[Tinydance]

14 hours ago, Jibralta said:

I think it comes down to the fact that very few people truly know themselves. Seems outrageous, but it's true. Most people don't think about what they are doing; they simply follow the path of least resistance. Some of them wander down the marriage and children path, and finally 'wake up' in the thick of things, wondering how and why they got there.

For me, it was almost pure dumb luck that I never wandered down that path because I didn't truly realize that I didn't want my own family until I was in my mid thirties. If things had gone differently for me, I would certainly be one of those lost souls wailing in the mom groups. 

Also I hate to say it but marriages sometimes do end in divorce. So to think that if you have a husband, you'll be married forever and he'll financially support you forever, might not be the right thought process. For me personally I'd rather continue working at least a day or two a week so that I have experience and connections in the workforce. So if things didn't work out with a marriage then I could still get a job by myself and support myself.

[Tinydance]

13 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

I think lots of people "crave" about what they once were. After you get the kid your life naturally changes in a big way. There is no that much "you" time and suddenly your whole life gets transformed. You are not just somebody who just needs to take care of his/her own needs, you need to take care of your kid in a big way. So suddenly, there is not much time for hobbies, training, even more simple stuff like seeing friends or going out. While the marriage and kids arent the dead of those things, you get way less time for them. So, some people after a while start to crave for the person they once was. Not realizing that they are that person but, as everything else in life, their role changes after a while. We are not the same persons we were in our 20s, 30s, 40s etc. Our roles over time are subjected to change. Some people arent ready for that when it comes to parent role, some do it but then crave their past and some accept it as natural progression. Those who crave are usually the ones with stories like "OMG never lose your identity, you need to stay the same, it would be so wrong if you lose yourself". 

I feel like I'd be one of those "craving" people if I had kids because I'm just such an outgoing and social person. Because I don't have kids (yet) my number one thing in life is basically spending time with my friends. I really thrive on socialising and doing all sorts of fun things all the time.

[Tinydance]

8 hours ago, mylolita said:

Jibralta,

 

You are your own person and do your own thing and for that I can’t give anyone anything but admiration and respect! 
 

The variation of life choice and what people value through this discussion is evidence enough that we really are all not the same! That’s good!

 

And thank you so much for the compliment. It has taken me aback, especially because you are so eloquent and creative. I don’t want to give the impression I am ever trying hard when I reply on here but I genuinely love writing, and love debating (you don’t take politics and NOT enjoy a good “discussion” 😉) It’s all BS anyway 🤣 

 

Wonder what the OP thinks… LOLZZZZ!

 

Surprised this hasn’t been closed and *** down. Almost feel like we need in the ‘Off Topic’ club a section for just random discussions and debates!

 

Lo x

These discussions are really good though, I'm really enjoying them lol

[Tinydance]

7 hours ago, itsallgrand said:

Yeah, I'm trying not to get emotional about it but when people say things like that, implying you don't know how it is to put someone else first or to care for anyone if you don't have kids/until you have kids, it does upset me. It's so inaccurate and it's a dig, whether it's intentional or not. 

I was 14 when I learned to empty catheter bags, change wound dressings, and was reading the blinks of eyes to communicate with my loved one. I did nothing but go to school, do housework, cook, study, and care for the people I love. I mean, that's part of my story and my life. 

Some people say "ah you don't know real sacrifice and love until you are a mother". I call bull. I've known it, and I don't begrudge it either, I did it because it was so so important to me to be there and do everything in my power for those I care about. And I'd do it again, no questions, if the need comes up. 

It's just so stupid, sorry not sorry. It's not the roles we take, it's what kind of person are you. Good parents were good people before they took on that role. They'd be awesome either way, going the distance for people. And those who don't aren't all magically changed because baby. 

OK I'm done now thanks. 

100% agree with literally your whole post!