white lies.

[Jibralta]

Lying is lying whether it's big or small and each time a person lies it diminishes trust in a relationship... whether it's a little at a time or all at once with a big whopper.

 

I see where you're coming from, but I don't completely agree. I have a couple flaky friends who I can pretty much count on to be late or cancel plans. Social things. They lie their way out ("I have a business trip." "My husband has a business trip." "My daughter has a recital," etc.). I know they're lying because I know them.

 

The kicker is, they're usually the ones who make the plans in the first place! They do it because they feel bad for not hanging out for x number of months. They have guilt. But then the day comes and they don't want to hang out. So they have more guilt about that and end up lying. I know them.

 

It actually just happened this week. My girlfriend cancelled plans that she made. The funny thing is, my boyfriend doesn't really enjoy hanging out with this girl and her husband. I'm not a huge fan either, but she is a childhood friend and I like to keep in touch. So I make the plans and tell my boyfriend, "Don't worry, they'll probably cancel." And they usually do. So, it's win-win.

 

I just don't see it as a big deal. They're actually not bad friends or bad people; I just don't rely on them to keep plans.

[itsallgrand]

Reinvent, do you think jibraltra may have been on to something when she mentioned the idea of the compounded stresses in your life right making this extra annoying at the moment?

 

I've definitely had that experience. With dealing with my moms estate and all that goes with that, the grief, work and relationships, there was a point there where things I'd usually manage with a shrug were really getting to me. One person at work, who I always thought of as a lazy pain in all our butts, well, one time I actually snapped at her to a degree I knew it was more than just the situation .

 

Take it easy on yourself.

[SherrySher]

Yes but Jibralta, why can't they be adults and just tell the truth? It seems to immature to start lying cause you can't handle or don't want to handle a situation.

 

It's one of my pet peeves.

 

I would expect a 5 year old to be doing this kind nonsense rather than a grown adult.

[Jibralta]

Yes but Jibralta, why can't they be adults and just tell the truth? It seems to immature to start lying cause you can't handle or don't want to handle a situation.

 

It's one of my pet peeves.

 

I would expect a 5 year old to be doing this kind nonsense rather than a grown adult.

 

There could be a degree of immaturity to it.

 

On the other hand, there's something to be said for tact. Would Lisa'a and my relationship be better off if we told each other that we really didn't want to see each other? I don't think so. And it wouldn't actually be a true statement if we did say it because we do want to see each other. Sort of. One day.

[SherrySher]

Sort of. One day.

 

lol, that gave me a giggle. I feel that way about some people.

[katrina1980]

 

I traveled south on the train to visit another office this morning. S loves to surf and I took pictures of the waves from the train. The cell reception is bad, he didn't respond like he typically would and I didn't give it too much thought. 3 hours later he text me and asked how my trip was. I asked if he got the pictures, he said yes he's at the gym. (now) All so innocent but I am second guessing him when I have no reason too. I hate that I am finding myself wondering where he was during those 3 hours and don't want to feel this way.

 

This^ is what stood out to me. And yes you do have reason to second guess him, he lies to others about such things to spare their feelings, so why wouldn't he lie to you too?

 

To spare your feelings. Or to not upset you, say if he were at a bar drinking or something. Or having lunch with a female friend.

 

Both of which are innocent enough and probably would not upset you, but he does not want to chance it, or deal with your possible reaction, so he tells you he was at the gym. In his mind, it's easier.

 

That would be the issue for me.

 

reinvent my friend, he can white lie to others till hell freezes over but when it starts to carry over to your relationship, causing you to second guess, or question what he tells you, it's time to address it and/or re-think the relationship.

 

I'm like Sherry, would rather hear the truth even if it's not something I relish hearing. Or might hurt me.

 

Whatever it is, I will deal with it.

 

My bf knows this about me, he's known it since the beginning. And vice versa. I think having that sort of trust is so important.

 

I can't even imagine having a relationship wherein you don't have that level of trust. Where you have to question whether something so mundane as going to the gym is the truth.

 

Not sure whether talking to him will help, this seems to be part of his overall nature. But you could try -- again.

 

I'm sorry reinvent, wish I could be more positive, good luck in whatever you choose to do. :)

[Batya33]

This^ is what stood out to me. And yes you do have reason to second guess him, he lies to others about such things to spare their feelings, so why wouldn't he lie to you too?

 

To spare your feelings. Or to not upset you, say if he were at a bar drinking or something. Or having lunch with a female friend.

 

Both of which are innocent enough and probably would not upset you, but he does not want to chance it, or deal with your possible reaction, so he tells you he was at the gym. In his mind, it's easier.

 

That would be the issue for me.

 

reinvent my friend, he can white lie to others till hell freezes over but when it starts to carry over to your relationship, causing you to second guess, or question what he tells you, it's time to address it and/or re-think the relationship.

 

I'm like Sherry, would rather hear the truth even if it's not something I relish hearing. Or might hurt me.

 

Whatever it is, I will deal with it.

 

My bf knows this about me, he's known it since the beginning. And vice versa. I think having that sort of trust is so important.

 

I can't even imagine having a relationship wherein you don't have that level of trust. Where you have to question whether something so mundane as going to the gym is the truth.

 

Not sure whether talking to him will help, this seems to be part of his overall nature. But you could try -- again.

 

I'm sorry reinvent, wish I could be more positive, good luck in whatever you choose to do. :)

 

Yes, I like this distinction a lot FWIW. My husband and I give each other input on how to avoid certain plans/situations with acquaintances without hurting the person's feelings - and in some cases sure it could involve a white lie like blaming a childcare situation so that a meeting doesn't have to take place over dinner but can be a quick coffee instead, etc. It's partly true - childcare is a true obstacle and of course we could make arrangements if it was crucial (which is not shared with the person, and I think that's typical). But if he didn't want to plan something with me -like see a movie I wanted to see -I am sure he would tell me- nicely "it's not really my thing". Would he instead say "I'm too busy to go that day" - I really doubt it. I can see where there could be times where he'd want to spare my feelings but can't think of an example. It would not be about him or about avoiding confrontation in that sense and it would be highly unusual.

[katrina1980]

 

again with the pathological. . .yikes

 

 

Thanks for everyone input. With that, I'll sign off on this one

 

reinvent, while I agree that some of these posts were a bit over the top (he's a pathological liar, etc), please don't allow a few posts you disagree with to drive you off.

 

I've been guilty of doing same, even had some of my threads closed, so I get it.

 

But this is a great topic and if you would allow it, you may even learn something new about yourself and your relationship with S.

 

I know I have once I'm open to hearing honest feedback, even if at first I don't agree and/or take offense to it.

 

Anyway, you've been through a lot of emotional stuff lately, which no doubt has taken its toll, so I hope you feel better soon, and if you are ever inclined to return, would love to hear from you!! xx

[tattoobunnie]

People who are 100% truthful can often be on the spectrum - ASD. Me and hubby say excuses to others all the time. Why? Because we love these people, but don't want to do something. The best part about this is that I have secrets others have shared that I will take to my grave. If you need me to help bury the bodies at 3 in the morning, I will, and never bring it up again. When you have kids, sometimes you use them feeling sick as an excuse not to go somewhere. If you say you're "busy", it is also saying to the other person that they are not a priority in your life. I have zero issues with confrontations. Being honest and telling it like it is. But with people I love, sometimes I just don't want to go out, and I say we are doing this or out of town. Does that make me a bad person? Nope. It just means that I would never tell a person they looked like crap, especially after pushing a 10 lb baby like I did out of my body.

[katrina1980]

I don't disagree tattoo, but reinvent said her bf's innocent white lies are beginning to affect her, causing her to have some doubts whether or not he is being truthful with her.

 

Do you not see this as an issue to address?

 

Or should reinvent simply live with her doubts and continue wondering about it?

 

I couldn't be in a relatiinship like that, but it's certainly possible I suppose.

 

This is choice reinvent will need to make for herself.

[Batya33]

People who are 100% truthful can often be on the spectrum - ASD. Me and hubby say excuses to others all the time. Why? Because we love these people, but don't want to do something. The best part about this is that I have secrets others have shared that I will take to my grave. If you need me to help bury the bodies at 3 in the morning, I will, and never bring it up again. When you have kids, sometimes you use them feeling sick as an excuse not to go somewhere. If you say you're "busy", it is also saying to the other person that they are not a priority in your life. I have zero issues with confrontations. Being honest and telling it like it is. But with people I love, sometimes I just don't want to go out, and I say we are doing this or out of town. Does that make me a bad person? Nope. It just means that I would never tell a person they looked like crap, especially after pushing a 10 lb baby like I did out of my body.

 

Wow -that's a really interesting insight about bluntness! I have a niece who starting as a young teenager/tween? became very blunt and offended people regularly. She made no excuses for it "just being honest" - well yes sure but balancing honesty with tact can involve white lies -not all the time but sometimes. I also am not a fan of people who ask me if they look bad, etc because it puts me in an awkward spot (not talking about run of the mill "do I have spinach in my teeth" kind of thing). I do call out my husband if he seems to use an excuse to end an uncomfortable discussion "well I'd better get back to work" - but we then talk about it -and I forgive him for trying to avoid a "can we just not talk about this anymore" because sometimes -even if it's self-serving - you are just too tired to deal with the consequences of "the truth". And the truth is -yes, he does need to get back to work, in part because I'm being annoying lol. Gray areas.

[maew]

What I am finding super interesting here is that this thread is bringing to light the fact that everyone interprets values differently, and everyone has a different "top 5" that guide them through life. Where one is okay with lying to protect someone's feelings, another might not be... and neither is right or wrong... it is simply a difference in what values are most important to us. An example that comes to mind is that when we did a cultural study to identify the differences between the various cultures in our organization, we realized that some cultures are more focused on relationship building vs complete honesty. I think of the people I work with in India as a perfect example of this... they will always tell me what they think I want to hear vs. the hard truth because they believe that is necessary to maintain a positive relationship. Whereas my counterparts in Germany will always be completely direct and blunt even if it causes the other person(s) to squirm because that's just how they communicate.

 

I think understanding all of these different points of view and accepting them is a great example of the diversity of opinions we have on here.

[itsallgrand]

You can be tactful without white lies and excuses though. People can see through it, and white lie enough, trust will be compromised.

[katrina1980]

You can be tactful without white lies and excuses though. People can see through it, and white lie enough, trust will be compromised.

 

Agree which it appears is precisely what's happening and why reinvent created this thread.

 

Putting integrity and moral compass aside, his lies to others are causing reinvent to doubt his truthfulness with her, which I think warrants addressing.

 

It's up to reinvent though. It's her bf, her relationship.

[Batya33]

What I am finding super interesting here is that this thread is bringing to light the fact that everyone interprets values differently, and everyone has a different "top 5" that guide them through life. Where one is okay with lying to protect someone's feelings, another might not be... and neither is right or wrong... it is simply a difference in what values are most important to us. An example that comes to mind is that when we did a cultural study to identify the differences between the various cultures in our organization, we realized that some cultures are more focused on relationship building vs complete honesty. I think of the people I work with in India as a perfect example of this... they will always tell me what they think I want to hear vs. the hard truth because they believe that is necessary to maintain a positive relationship. Whereas my counterparts in Germany will always be completely direct and blunt even if it causes the other person(s) to squirm because that's just how they communicate.

 

I think understanding all of these different points of view and accepting them is a great example of the diversity of opinions we have on here.

 

For me I always differentiate true "white lies" from lies. To me it is just a plain lie if told for a completely self-serving reason and to a person who has specifically asked for honesty about the particular issue - what comes to mind with the OP is planning -so if she has asked him to be honest if he doesn't feel like keeping or making a certain plan with her then if he lies about it it is no longer a white lie told to spare her feelings -it is instead a disrespectful lie and disrespectful in general.

[katrina1980]

I'm not so sure about this notion of "sparing of feelings."

 

I mean on its face, it seems noble, but I think it may actually be a bit self-serving.

 

Meaning, it's just easier to tell a white lie rather than deal with the possible consequences of telling the truth.

 

And I'm not talking about someone just blurting out without being asked "you look fat"! Or something like that. That's just mean.

 

I am talking about creating an elaborate false scenario, rather than simply saying "I'm sorry, I can't make it that day" and leaving it at that. Or "I'm super tired," or "I was hoping for a quiet evening at home, some lone time." Just to name a few.

 

The possible consequences of the truth being the recipient continuing to push, which you'd rather avoid, not be bothered with, so you create this elaborate false scenario to basically shut them up.

 

To me that is not sparing their feelings, it's self serving, which is ok, just own it and not disguise it as something noble -- "oh I lie to spare their feelings."

 

Not buying it.

[Batya33]

Part of nice things we do often have some part that is self serving including the good feeling we get from for example doing volunteer work. So you’re ok with white lies in response to “do you think I still look like I have baby weight on me” but not with “I can’t make it to your event because our sitter has to leave too early “ instead of “I’m too tired to go to your event and I’d rather have a bowl of cereal and read a good book “. I made a new friend some months ago. She immediately wanted my husband and myself to double date that weekend. I wish I’d told her we already had plans. I told her the truth and she gave me a hard time about it (we don’t go out at night anymore - very rare - and I don’t want to go out at night although I did regularly for 25 years ). I offered her alternatives. But I wish I’d had a white lie ready because I didn’t need the annoying push back on my “not something we can do at this time “. With a new person.

[greendots]

Ugh, white lies. I might smile out of politeness when people I have to associate with, such as a colleague or relative, express meaningless pleasantries or tell white lies.

 

But, let's get real. If you can't be honest to me about little things, then what certainty do I have that you'll be honest to me about big things? Besides, a solid relationship of any kind is built on honesty. Without honesty you've got squat.

[katrina1980]

Hi Bat, not sure who you were addressing in your last post.

 

Maybe no one in particular, but to clarify, personally I don't care for any sort of lie, but I understand why people do, I used to, often times it's just easier.

 

As far as self-serving, we are all self-serving in one form or another, I have no issue with that.

 

My only issue is not owning that and hiding it behind "I only lied to spare their feelings," which I think is BS in most cases.

 

Funny story -- my bf and I are on a sort of "good eats" fest, dining out, experiencing different types of cuisines at local (and non-local) restaurants.

 

It's been really fun and as a result I have gained around 7 pounds, much of it in my tummy! Lol

 

So I asked him the other day if it was noticeable, and he said "yeah it was, but I still looked great to him."

 

Ugh, lol, now this wasn't something I particularly relished hearing and he could have white lied and told me, no it wasn't noticeable, as many boyfriends would have, but boy did I ever appreciate his honesty!

 

It fosters trust which is huge for me! I know I can always count on him to tell me the truth no matter what.

 

This incident was not the first time either, we talked about it very early on. Honesty is super important to both of us.

 

So no, I don't like any sort of lies, but again, I understand why people do.

 

Just own it! Your reasons. If not to others, then at least to yourself.

 

 

To me that is not sparing their feelings, it's self serving, which is ok, just own it and not disguise it as something noble -- "oh I lie to spare their feelings."

 

[Jibralta]

But I wish I’d had a white lie ready because I didn’t need the annoying push back on my “not something we can do at this time “. With a new person.

 

Lol. It can save a lot of work!

[Batya33]

Hi Bat, not sure who you were addressing in your last post.

 

Maybe no one in particular, but to clarify, personally I don't care for any sort of lie, but I understand why people do, I used to, often times it's just easier.

 

As far as self-serving, we are all self-serving in one form or another, I have no issue with that.

 

My only issue is not owning that and hiding it behind "I only lied to spare their feelings," which I think is BS in most cases.

 

Funny story -- my bf and I are on a sort of "good eats" fest, dining out, experiencing different types of cuisines at local (and non-local) restaurants.

 

It's been really fun and as a result I have gained around 7 pounds, much of it in my tummy! Lol

 

So I asked him the other day if it was noticeable, and he said "yeah it was, but I still looked great to him."

 

Ugh, lol, now this wasn't something I particularly relished hearing and he could have white lied and told me, no it wasn't noticeable, as many boyfriends would have, but boy did I ever appreciate his honesty!

 

It fosters trust which is huge for me! I know I can always count on him to tell me the truth no matter what.

 

This incident was not the first time either, we talked about it very early on. Honesty is super important to both of us.

 

So no, I don't like any sort of lies, but again, I understand why people do.

 

Just own it!

 

Oh I agree with you that oversharing about someone looking fat has nothing to do with honesty or lying - I mean if someone asks you if she looks fat do you tell a white lie. Your boyfriend and you have a special relationship where perhaps you are comfortable saying the truth and you are comfortable asking him if you look fat. I don't think it's fair to ask that of our loved ones unless it's for a very good reason because it puts them in a really awkward position.

 

I don't think it's BS at all to tell a white lie to spare someone's feelings. I've done it and I know it's been done to me. And I'm thankful that people are thoughtful and caring and want to spare mine and other peoples' feelings. If they also benefit in some way so be it. Just like people feel better about themselves from helping others - that doesn't detract from helping others.

[katrina1980]

>>I've done it and I know it's been done to me. And I'm thankful that people are thoughtful and caring and want to spare mine and other peoples' feelings.

____

 

That's an interesting perspective Bat. Lying to someone as being "thoughtful and caring."

 

I'm teasing B, actually upon further reflection, yeah I agree, in certain instances that's very true. I will own that I do it too!!

 

Reminds me of the movie with Jim Carrey "Liar Liar" which reflects just how often we white lie in everyday life without even realizing it. And how chaotic and cruel the world would be if we didnt.

 

But I dunno, creating elaborate false scenarios versus simply saying "sorry I'm busy that night, rain check?" is something I am having trouble wrapping my brain around. It's not necessary.

 

Re my bf, yeah he's pretty blunt!! LOL I love that about him! Even when it's something I don't particularly relish hearing.

 

I'm a big girl, I can handle the truth! Lol

[SherrySher]

I agree with you, Kat. I can't ever find a good enough reason to lie or "white lie". The close friends and family and partner I have, are close enough to me that we are comfortable enough being totally honest with each other, all the time.

 

Though it's not so much in part luck. I have sought out friendships and relationships like this. I find honesty very attractive. I find it mature, responsible, respectable.

I can literally ask anyone in my closer circle anything and I know the answer they give is 100% the truth. That makes me feel safe. I will never have to second guess or have mind games when it comes to any of them.

 

Have they said harsh truths to me? Yes. You can't really live a life without some harshness coming along at some point. But same thing, my friends, family and partner aren't ones to hide the truth or bend it or play games with it.

I appreciate that, very much.

 

As for others in my life, acquaintances, co workers and so on, my mind thinks even less of wanting to lie to them. Why would I? I don't know them very well and I find it even easier to tell the truth. (if that makes any sense).

Again, I am not harsh with my truths. (or at least that's never my intention). I try to be as honest with people as possible, even if its not what they want to hear.

 

I can't understand why it would need to be any other way. I do try to see others sides of it, but only to the degree of possibly trying to understand why the need to "white lie"..but again, it seems daft and useless to go down the route.

I probably could spare myself a lot of grief if I white lied. But I'm not that person.

 

Someone asked me my opinion on something political the other day and she didn't like my opinion. (I cringed when she asked me knowing how she felt already about the subject).

I could have told her I agreed with her and all would be well. (sort of). But I would still feel like a fraud and I don't like that feeling.

 

I told her the truth, she freaked out. Yep...freaked out. She felt very passionately about this subject. She wouldn't speak to me for over 3 weeks.

Eventually she came around and apologized. Told me she respected the fact that I was honest with her and she still valued my opinion even if it was different than hers.

What can I say? I felt better about myself, I felt she and I had a better relationship after that whole scenario. She knows I don't tell her things she wants to hear.

It was a better ending in my opinion.

 

But I know we are all different and we accept different things from others and/or from ourselves.

[Batya33]

>>I've done it and I know it's been done to me. And I'm thankful that people are thoughtful and caring and want to spare mine and other peoples' feelings.

____

 

That's an interesting perspective Bat. Lying to someone as being "thoughtful and caring."

 

I'm teasing B, actually upon further reflection, yeah I agree, in certain instances that's very true. I will own that I do it too!!

 

Reminds me of the movie with Jim Carrey "Liar Liar" which reflects just how often we white lie in everyday life without even realizing it. And how chaotic and cruel the world would be if we didnt.

 

But I dunno, creating elaborate false scenarios versus simply saying "sorry I'm busy that night, rain check?" is something I am having trouble wrapping my brain around. It's not necessary.

 

Re my bf, yeah he's pretty blunt!! LOL I love that about him! Even when it's something I don't particularly relish hearing.

 

I'm a big girl, I can handle the truth! Lol

 

I would not be ok with what Reinvent describes - lying to your SO about your whereabouts in the name of sparing feelings- not in the particular way she describes. I'm not generalizing from that -just responding to what Reinvent described.

 

If someone asks me my political opinion I don't lie. I say "I don't want to discuss it". Especially on social media. Yes I will discuss my political views with certain people including my husband, mother, sibling - but I make it a rule not to go there on social media ever or with basically anyone else. I never understand why people respond in the name of honesty if in reality they want to avoid confrontation - choosing not to respond with a truthful "I'm not comfortable sharing" is honest and perfectly appropriate IMO. Being honest doesn't require a response to a question you're not comfortable with or that's intrusive in some way - and doesn't require a lie either. I too would feel like a fraud "agreeing" with someone if I didn't feel that way.

 

I think people confuse "honesty" with "sharing" - we're not required to respond or share in the name of honesty. That might be being "open" and that's fine if the person wants to be but choosing not to respond isn't dishonest. I also think people dismiss being tactful in the name of "honesty" - not responding to "am I fat?" isn't dishonest it's simply having a boundary so saying to the person "look, I don't want to be the judge of that. If you are unhappy with your weight and you want to talk about that I'm here for you". Someone asked me the other day if I thought her boss was being unfair about something. The truth is I can see both sides and the truth is she was really, really upset when she asked plus has serious medical problems. So I simply responded with what I would do -the steps I would take- to resolve the matter. My opinion really didn't matter in the long run -I don't work with her -and no I didn't care to get involved in a discussion right then of whether her boss was unfair. She wouldn't have been in a place to be able to listen to me talk about the other side of the matter.

 

She thought she wanted to know what I thought but what she really needed was for me to act in a supportive way. And I felt I did by trying to help her figure out next steps if she thought he was being unfair. I don't think I lied by not responding, I do think I was honestly trying to help her and if she'd pressed the issue I would have said I felt uncomfortable judging it since I wasn't at her workplace. Would it have been helpful for me to share that I think he has had to deal with a lot of drama with her in a short period of time? No. This way I could help her move forward and she thanked me.

[katrina1980]

Bat, in reading reinvents' post, we don't know if her bf lied to her, she posted he lies to others, which is causing her to question whether or not he is/was lying to her too.

 

I hope he is not, but the mere fact she questions it is concerning, or would be for me. I'd address it, before it escalates.

 

Re him lying to others, regardless of his reasons, I would be pissed if I discovered my bf was including me and my family in his elaborate false scenarios to others.

 

I would never accept this or date a person who did that.

 

But I am not dating him, reinvent is so that's her choice to make.

 

Sherry!!! You and I -- newfound kindred spirits?

 

Who would've thought?!! xx