Was I date raped if I didn't consent until it was already too late?

[figureitout23]

Kat, I'm glad you're responding and I'm glad you're processing everything.

 

I understand being defensive, it's a natural human reaction, but unless we are to completely ignore your original post, you stated you weren't even sure what you wanted, you said sex could have been a possibility but you wanted to take things slow, COMPLETELY understandable, but you didn't say you said any of that to him. This is not your fault, I just really think to avoid anything like this ever happening again you need to know what a boundary is and how to set it. I had the impression from you before this was even posted that you struggle a bit with that.

 

If you convince yourself this situation included hardline boundaries that were crossed you won't learn what a hardline boundary is dear.

[smackie9]

As a woman, I believe women should take some responsibility for their actions or lack there of. By what was posted, there was no clear instructions to this guy that there will be absolutely no sex. That falls on the woman to say no, and remover herself from the situation immediately. His actions were very clear he wanted sex when he dove in for a passionate kiss, and you are not 12 you are a an adult, you know what the intentions were. You were giggling and unzipping your pants, this is consent in any court of law....it's normal to assume this, this is what people do when they are interested in sex. So if you felt you were raped, you need to take a good hard look at how you conduct yourself. I do not agree with what he did either, he should have removed himself from the situation as well. He's a jerk and I hope you never see him again.

 

Now for the mom talk. You do not invite a man into your bedroom unless sex is on the table. This isn't just for women, I tell men this as well. Don't do cuddles in bed, don't do sleep overs, don't do heavy petting you are not a teenager for christ sakes, have them sleep on the couch or go home. Always have clear concise communication.

[smackie9]

 

If you convince yourself this situation included hardline boundaries that were crossed you won't learn what a hardline boundary is dear.

 

I agree with this^

[Kfizzle]

 

If you convince yourself this situation included hardline boundaries that were crossed you won't learn what a hardline boundary is dear.

 

Yes, I regret not making those hardline boundaries from the get go. The boundaries I made were indeed much too soft, especially considering the guy could not take a *NO* statement, let alone a hint that doesnt take a mind reader to figure out. I have only myself to blame for that and claim full responsibility for my actions that night. I just need to learn to make different, more hardfast approaches with men who have different personalities than the men I'm used to, and not rely on the soft boundaries which I defaulted to with him, which are the boundaries I'm used to making, as I tend to date the more sensitive, respectful men. It worked for me in the past, and I never posed it to them in a way where I expect them to do the impossible and become a mind reader or anything, because I *may* want it later on in the night, I have to be honest with myself and with them in that regard. I just never saw myself as sexually repressed in any way, and having that quality can make me seem quite immature at times (like in this situation) and this time, it did get me into a lot of trouble and left me very hurt. So this is just what I needed to hear. Just to practice different approaches of stating boundaries with different types of people I may meet, and not make my approach the same with everyone. Thank you for your response, hon.

[abitbroken]

As a woman, I believe women should take some responsibility for their actions or lack there of. By what was posted, there was no clear instructions to this guy that there will be absolutely no sex. That falls on the woman to say no, and remover herself from the situation immediately. His actions were very clear he wanted sex when he dove in for a passionate kiss, and you are not 12 you are a an adult, you know what the intentions were. You were giggling and unzipping your pants, this is consent in any court of law....it's normal to assume this, this is what people do when they are interested in sex. So if you felt you were raped, you need to take a good hard look at how you conduct yourself. I do not agree with what he did either, he should have removed himself from the situation as well. He's a jerk and I hope you never see him again.

 

Now for the mom talk. You do not invite a man into your bedroom unless sex is on the table. This isn't just for women, I tell men this as well. Don't do cuddles in bed, don't do sleep overs, don't do heavy petting you are not a teenager for christ sakes, have them sleep on the couch or go home. Always have clear concise communication.

 

I agree with everything said here.

 

Ok -- the problem is that 1) a "just cuddling/no sex" is different from "just cuddling....but maybe more as we go" with a sly smile. 2) you unzipped your OWN pants for him. That is where you totally lost me here. To me I think you regretted what happened, but were not raped -- because it is totally unfair to have a woman lie in bed with a guy having previously said "maybe" and unzipping her own fly for him. 3) if you had no furniture, he doesn't stay period --- or you certainly have two pillows where you could give him one and a blanket to sleep on the floor or you could sleep on the floor.

 

There ARE CASES of true date rape == woman and man out on a date, he starts to touch her in the car, she holds his hands and directs them away and says she is not ready for that, then she tries to leave the car and go back inside, but he grabs her. Or when a woman is unconscious.

 

I honestly think you were not raped - you are just experiencing regret.

 

And unzipping your own pants is the WRONG time to talk about protection.

[Batya33]

As a woman, I believe women should take some responsibility for their actions or lack there of. By what was posted, there was no clear instructions to this guy that there will be absolutely no sex. That falls on the woman to say no, and remover herself from the situation immediately. His actions were very clear he wanted sex when he dove in for a passionate kiss, and you are not 12 you are a an adult, you know what the intentions were. You were giggling and unzipping your pants, this is consent in any court of law....it's normal to assume this, this is what people do when they are interested in sex. So if you felt you were raped, you need to take a good hard look at how you conduct yourself. I do not agree with what he did either, he should have removed himself from the situation as well. He's a jerk and I hope you never see him again.

 

Now for the mom talk. You do not invite a man into your bedroom unless sex is on the table. This isn't just for women, I tell men this as well. Don't do cuddles in bed, don't do sleep overs, don't do heavy petting you are not a teenager for christ sakes, have them sleep on the couch or go home. Always have clear concise communication.

 

I don't agree with the last paragraph in the least. I had many many sleepovers and bed sharing situations where there was no sex because beforehand -and we were always sober (I've never been drunk and made the mistake of sharing a bed for a short time with a drunk guy at a resort -luckily I was able to stop further assault) - and I think sleepovers are great and don't need to involve intercourse unless both people want that. So we would talk beforehand, the boundaries were clear and it was VERY RARE where the man tried to push it to actual sex and if it even started to go there and I said no quietly that was it, it was no, all was fine. The two times I regretted it was once when I didn't have that conversation (and he tried to physically restrain me and only stopped at the third "no!") and once when I was dating a really nice person for 6 months and I gave a mixed message and didn't mean to -I asked him if I could crash at his place for the night because it was really late and I was exhausted/safety reasons. Since we'd barely even kissed much (yes it was an unusual dating relationship) i honestly didn't think he'd try to go all the way. When he started down that path he stopped when I said no and we had a very civil conversation about how he'd felt confused from my staying over. He was very understanding and I apologized.

 

I cannot understand why men and women cannot share a bed without the people assuming sexual intercourse will be involved (or oral sex). Making out, heavy petting and sleeping together can be wonderful and intimate. And yes with a new person you have to have clear boundaries beforehand and be sober and maybe you have that conversation again if one of the people realizes it's getting frustrating -and if it is ,you don't do the sleepovers.

 

It's not about teenage stuff -I was a virgin till I was in my mid-20s and had many sleepovers including with serious boyfriends. No one got frustrated or mad and it was the opposite -fun and intimate and exciting and passionate depending on the night. And I often waited months before having sex with a new partner and before that time we'd go on vacations, share hotel beds, stay over at each other's homes. No issue -the opposite.

 

I don't agree with the OP's assumptions and expectations with what happened - I don't think she was fair in what she expected this guy to understand from what she said/did/didn't say. And I also agree with Itsallgrand that it sounds like a very unpleasant experience and should be hashed out with a counselor or someone of that caliber -an outsider she trusts or can trust.

[abitbroken]

Yes, I regret not making those hardline boundaries from the get go. The boundaries I made were indeed much too soft, especially considering the guy could not take a *NO* statement, let alone a hint that doesnt take a mind reader to figure out. I have only myself to blame for that and claim full responsibility for my actions that night. I just need to learn to make different, more hardfast approaches with men who have different personalities than the men I'm used to, and not rely on the soft boundaries which I defaulted to with him, which are the boundaries I'm used to making, as I tend to date the more sensitive, respectful men. It worked for me in the past, and I never posed it to them in a way where I expect them to do the impossible and become a mind reader or anything, because I *may* want it later on in the night, I have to be honest with myself and with them in that regard. I just never saw myself as sexually repressed in any way, and having that quality can make me seem quite immature at times (like in this situation) and this time, it did get me into a lot of trouble and left me very hurt. So this is just what I needed to hear. Just to practice different approaches of stating boundaries with different types of people I may meet, and not make my approach the same with everyone. Thank you for your response, hon.

 

How is "being sexually repressed" a topic here/ You are not sexually repressed if you are unzipping your fly and presenting the goods -- that is a YES YES YES YES not a NO . You are not sexually repressed -- NAIVE, perhaps, but not repressed.

 

You really have to smarten up.

[Batya33]

How is "being sexually repressed" a topic here/ You are not sexually repressed if you are unzipping your fly and presenting the goods -- that is a YES YES YES YES not a NO . You are not sexually repressed -- NAIVE, perhaps, but not repressed.

 

You really have to smarten up.

 

I think she meant she is not sexually repressed. It's not about repressed- it;s about avoiding STDS, rape, unwanted pregnancies. Why would you think it's a one size fits all approach? Don't you communicate at work differently with different colleagues about work expectations and standards, for example? Yes, NO means NO but in your case it was preceded with mixed messages so your NO in that context might have been confusing. There is a one size fits all as far as clarity and sobriety beforehand especially with a new person.

[ThatwasThen]

So do you want us to vote on whether you were date-raped or not? That's for you to decide. I would ask if you want to press charges against the guy and have him locked up for rape or not. Legally, you're all over the place. You unzipped your own pants and didn't mind him putting his fingers inside you. Saying that your body language made it very clear that you weren't into it isn't enough. You did say no, but you also said OK. You said you expected a discussion about sex before he did anything. Good luck with that, these things happen. And you had been dating this guy for a month without sex, where you had sex with your former roommate only a week after telling him you liked him.

 

OK, so I'm like two generations older than you, but I don't get this whole idea that you can invite a guy back to your place, cuddle on your bed, and let him sleep overnight with you and have nothing happen. If I was a 32-year-old man dating a girl for a month, I would be thinking that this was finally my chance. And you did something similar in your first post where you were splitting a hotel room with a guy.

 

I don't know if you had health classes, but when men get excited, blood starts pumping to their private parts and there are various glands that start building up fluid that make it difficult to hold in. Plus the instinctive part of the brain starts taking over for the thinking part of the brain and it's damn difficult for a guy to stop doing what he's doing when he's excited. Technically, the second you said no in a clear, strong voice, he was suppose to stop, but reality is different from the theoretical.

 

So I guess I'm trying to make the point to you that you should stop inviting men to be alone with you if you don't want to have sex with them. Don't be naive and play it safe. Don't put yourself in a situation where you can be raped.

 

^^^ and THAT is exactly why schools and parents have to teach their sons and male students to get CLEAR consent before entering a woman sexually. It's also why schools and parents have to tell their daughters that they should be having a conversation about sex and telling their male counterpart about clear consent before engaging, to any guy they are going to be unzipping with.

 

Was it rape? No consent to enter to begin with but whether it would hold weight in court is another matter.

[Cope]

KtheViolinHead, you seem to be setting this guy apart from the others you've dated. You say that this guy apparently needed more clear instructions than the other guys. It looks like he can't take a hint and respect you, especially after the "No". Are you sure you are ok with taking the blame of not making it clearer? You didn't do anything different than with the other men, yet this one crossed the line, even after a "no". Am I reading too much into this or is this guy standing out for a reason?

 

In other words: we have a number of guys who followed your instructions pretty well and one guy that didn't. Yet it is your fault you didn't make it clearer.

 

Why would this be your fault?

[figureitout23]

Yes, I regret not making those hardline boundaries from the get go. The boundaries I made were indeed much too soft, especially considering the guy could not take a *NO* statement, let alone a hint that doesnt take a mind reader to figure out. I have only myself to blame for that and claim full responsibility for my actions that night. I just need to learn to make different, more hardfast approaches with men who have different personalities than the men I'm used to, and not rely on the soft boundaries which I defaulted to with him, which are the boundaries I'm used to making, as I tend to date the more sensitive, respectful men. It worked for me in the past, and I never posed it to them in a way where I expect them to do the impossible and become a mind reader or anything, because I *may* want it later on in the night, I have to be honest with myself and with them in that regard. I just never saw myself as sexually repressed in any way, and having that quality can make me seem quite immature at times (like in this situation) and this time, it did get me into a lot of trouble and left me very hurt. So this is just what I needed to hear. Just to practice different approaches of stating boundaries with different types of people I may meet, and not make my approach the same with everyone. Thank you for your response, hon.

 

No problem at all, take things one day at a time and I do hope you reach a place of peace after this. We all fumble through life, it's a learning expiereince.

[cddupes]

Not one post telling her to date some good guys. Not one. Yes it is rape by the way.

[Batya33]

^^^ and THAT is exactly why schools and parents have to teach their sons and male students to get CLEAR consent before entering a woman sexually. It's also why schools and parents have to tell their daughters that they should be having a conversation about sex and telling their male counterpart about clear consent before engaging, to any guy they are going to be unzipping with.

 

Was it rape? No consent to enter to begin with but whether it would hold weight in court is another matter.

 

I think this more often occurs when someone chooses to get drunk with a person they don't know well and where they haven't discussed boundaries beforehand. I know she told him that he was crashing out of convenience but in her case the only place to sleep was to share a bed. I would have had him sleep on blankets on the floor.

[ThatwasThen]

I think this more often occurs when someone chooses to get drunk with a person they don't know well and where they haven't discussed boundaries beforehand.

If men and women are educated more on what is and what isn't consent, and if she had a conversation with him about consent before she unzipped, then chances are higher, that none of this would have happened. Luckily here in Ontario, the new sex ed curriculum is fully covering such lessons.

 

I know she told him that he was crashing out of convenience but in her case the only place to sleep was to share a bed. I would have had him sleep on blankets on the floor.

I wouldn't have been cuddling with him under the blankets unless I was ready to have sex with him and it was mutually agreed to before we did it... and yes, he would be sleeping on the floor if he were unable to get home.

 

Also: I am with Smacking on this one in that if you don't plan on having sex with a guy then don't be inviting him to be in your bed with you. Certainly being in that bed doesn't give him carte blanche to do what he wants to my body but until the lines of communication are more clear and men/women are more educated to the point where it's the norm to have that unsexy conversation, I say to women, keep them out of your bed until you're ready to have all forms of sex with them.

 

I 100% believe that sleeping together just to cuddle before you have ever been intimate before just muddies the lines and intents.

[katrina1980]

Not one post telling her to date some good guys. Not one. Yes it is rape by the way.

 

A guy can appear to be a "good guy" until shyt like this, or other things happen which makes him "not" a good guy anymore.

 

She's only known him a month, you've got to date a guy for a little while to know whether or not he's a good guy.

 

But yeah of course she should strive to only date good guys!

 

That's a given!

[j.man]

What isn't rape: unzipping your jeans for a guy and letting him slide your panties to the side under your own assumption it's just gonna be fingers and that assumption proving incorrect. But I suppose if we were to argue affirmative consent, pretty much all of it including the kissing would have been a sexual assault to some degree if he (or you) didn't ask for or provide explicit verbal consent every step of the way. You may be able to infer my leanings as far as that one goes.

 

What is rape: Him not stopping once you've clearly stated "no" or "stop" or whatever reasonably interpretable equivalent.

 

While it's very important we don't make hard and very impactful assertions when details are gray, it seems clear to me by the account given that the guy commited the rape.

 

The nuance of a rape victim is often lost when we try to insert ourselves and how we think we'd react into it. Rape, as a committed act, is 100% wrong, no gray required. The extent to which someone feels victimized or traumatized during and after definitely can and does operate on a scale. If we're talking someone who is saying no not necessarily because they aren't physically primed and rearing to go, but, say, because they simply want some coaxing or foreplay first (obviously still having as much right to reject an advance as anyone else), a man not taking no for an answer may be taken less as a physical assault (which it undoubtedly is) and more mildly as a disrespect. I think it's very conceivable that a rape victim who, if not for wanting more foreplay or having emotional boundaries to consider, would otherwise like to have sex then and there might find themselves enjoying themselves during the rape. Again, the rape is act committed. Whether someone like the OP happens to find enjoyment during it doesn't take away from that fact. That's not to say the OP shouldn't aspire to assert her boundaries and immediately disengage with a man who violates them even once, but that her scenario isn't unconscionable as a legitimate rape.

[Kfizzle]

Katrina1980 and Cope:

 

Katrina im so very sorry you had to e oerience what you did. That is just awful. Thank you for all your advice, love, and yes this will probably be inevitably a case of *implied consent* that you discissed in one of your posts,given that i did help him take off my jeans. Ugh.

 

Cope: I'm feeling much better now that im talking about it, and I thank you so incredibly much for all your kind words and your support! *hugs* and this happened not even a week ago. The only thing I'm worried about is going to the doctor and getting tested for STI's or STD's, neither of which ive ever had to deal with before, as I've always *always* talked with my partners and they were smart enough to carry protection, not on a whim, but when they didn't have it, we waited. And we were intimate in other less dangerous ways when they didn't have it on them. But with this guy, he wasn't having ANY of that... so I'm pretty scared. Yes, he's a bit different than other guys i've dated, and I experienced many firsts with him, so i guess i subconsciously knew that he was different, from my first date with him, but nothing could have prepared me for this.

 

I assumed he would have protection, and he was the *first* one that didn't who went ahead and completely disregarded telling me and forcing it in me anyway. I was expecting some kind of emotional primer or something that told me what he wanted, and he was the *first* man I snuggled up with who completely had forgone any of that, no words exchanged, just peck, kiss on the mouth, more kisses on the neck (the make out session of his was very brief), but then again, neck kisses usually get me ready for foreplay, so I foolishly unzip my pants, he takes them off, and I then grab his hand and begin to guide his hand to, y'know (but I left my underwear on! So he knew that that was what I wanted! )and then Booooooooommm. 2 seconds later its in me, and he completely forgoes the foreplay scenario that I nonverbally set up for him, and I'm like, 'ouch?!!! ????' he was the *first* to put it in without my consent, the *first* one I've ever had unprotected sex with.

 

So yeah, I am blaming myself. That was quite possibly my biggest error when I just thought to myself that we would see how the night would unfold, and didn't ask him before we got into that Uber and headed back to my place. That's why I'm kicking myself in the a$$ for not setting harder boundaries with this guy.

[figureitout23]

Katrina1980 and Cope:

 

Katrina im so very sorry you had to e oerience what you did. That is just awful. Thank you for all your advice, love, and yes this will probably be inevitably a case of *implied consent* that you discissed in one of your posts,given that i did help him take off my jeans. Ugh.

 

Cope: I'm feeling much better now that im talking about it, and I thank you so incredibly much for all your kind words and your support! *hugs* and this happened not even a week ago. The only thing I'm worried about is going to the doctor and getting tested for STI's or STD's, neither of which ive ever had to deal with before, as I've always *always* talked with my partners and they were smart enough to carry protection, not on a whim, but when they didn't have it, we waited. And we were intimate in other less dangerous ways when they didn't have it on them. But with this guy, he wasn't having ANY of that... so I'm pretty scared. Yes, he's a bit different than other guys i've dated, and I experienced many firsts with him, so i guess i subconsciously knew that he was different, from my first date with him, but nothing could have prepared me for this.

 

I assumed he would have protection, and he was the *first* one that didn't who went ahead and completely disregarded telling me and forcing it in me anyway. I was expecting some kind of emotional primer or something that told me what he wanted, and he was the *first* man I snuggled up with who completely had forgone any of that, no words exchanged, just peck, kiss on the mouth, more kisses on the neck (the make out session of his was very brief), but then again, neck kisses usually get me ready for foreplay, so I foolishly unzip my pants, he takes them off, and I then grab his hand and begin to guide his hand to, y'know (but I left my underwear on! So he knew that that was what I wanted! )and then Booooooooommm. 2 seconds later its in me, and he completely forgoes the foreplay scenario that I nonverbally set up for him, and I'm like, 'ouch?!!! ????' he was the *first* to put it in without my consent, the *first* one I've ever had unprotected sex with.

 

So yeah, I am blaming myself. That was quite possibly my biggest error when I just thought to myself that we would see how the night would unfold, and didn't ask him before we got into that Uber and headed back to my place. That's why I'm kicking myself in the a$$ for not setting harder boundaries with this guy.

 

Please don't blame yourself Kat. Im not gonna lie, when I was younger I put myself into SO many dangerous situations. It took age to learn to be more cautious, its unfortunate that this had to happen to open your eyes to these types of situations and the importance of boundaries, but it is definitely NOT your fault he violated you.

[ThatwasThen]

I assumed he would have protection

Go to the store and buy your own. Always have some in your night stand and in your purse. Take care of yourself and don't leave that job up to anyone else.

[Cope]

KtheViolinHead, I'm so glad you're feeling better! I really feel for you, glad I can help!

I know getting tested is scary, but you have to do it. You can take a friend with you if it feels better. If it was less than a week, you don't have to rush to get tested as far as I know because some things don't show up that soon. Consult a doctor for more details, because tests (and therapies) differ from country to country and I'm not in the US. Note that even while using protection you have to get tested, some things not even a condom can protect you from as there are other ways you can get them, but don't worry, most go away with antibiotics. Make sure to get tested for everything since it's your first time. Most likely you're clean, but just to make sure. Again,consult a doctor!

 

Nothing can prepare you for something like this. The more you describe the event the more scarier it sounds. You really need to talk to more experienced people about this to guide you through your feelings. I can't speak for the rest here, but I do go on dates and find it common to go on dates and "see how it unfolds", there's nothing to beat yourself up about on that. Sure, you might have things that you've done with previous men that you want to change. Like me, for example, I have a drinking tendency and I know that I like having sex and frankly, am pretty easy about it, so lately I've been trying to not drink, especially on first dates, to avoid having sex so fast. Drinking way too much is a problem, it can get you into risky things like, hit by a car, or get into fights etc. But when it comes to rape, it take a specific type of person to force themselves on a blacked out one. I admire the men who don't try to have sex with girls who are just tipsy, but that shouldn't be a cause for admiration, that should be the norm.

 

I honestly am confused as to if you set boundaries or not before hand. Did you set any or just the normal ones you do? (you call them soft, but I don't see them as soft, they are actually thorough if they are the ones you mentioned in a previous post.)

 

Don't beat yourself up, he has a lot of blame on his shoulders. You said no. No matter what hints you gave him in the beginning, you said no. Any logical and respectful man would not want to continue if they see that their partner is not 100% in it. Unfortunately, there's a saying that is circulated for. who knows how may decades, that "when a woman says no, she means yes" and also the one that says "boys will be boys", which basically gives them a green light for almost any behavior. He might not be a serial rapist, but he did commit rape. He might think that this is normal and that is even scarier. That is why we need to educate men about consent and women about setting boundaries and that they don't have to say yes just because a man wants to. Also, if I hear another blue balls excuse, I'll vomit.

[SherrySher]

All I was pointing out was that, like others said, very mixed messages were given to this man. Saying no the first time but then you keep on lying beside him and cuddling? Then you admitting that YOU weren't even sure if you wanted sex or not?

 

For all intents and purposes the least anyone could admit is that this guy was probably confused as to what she wanted. Yes, she did say no, but then she kept on lying with him and cuddling and asked if he had protection.

I am not saying he wasn't wrong, but he had been drinking and no doubt was confused, at least to some degree.

 

Secondly, don't be bringing any man into your bed if you don't know them really well (which can take lots of time).

You say you didn't know if he would "snap your neck"...wow..unreal that you truly thought he could be this violent ( or didn't even know) but yet had him in your bed.

All I am saying is, exercise far far more caution.

 

I agree as well that if you feel badly, seek help in the form of counselling.

[empath]

There is a lot going on in this discussion!

 

I just want to put some (more) reaction out there as a cis, heterosexual man. Maybe it is unhelpful, I dunno!

 

- I can totally imagine variously grey situations in sexual life. I think like most people, at least of my age, I was given little specific instruction growing up about the world of sexual consent, and the idea was implanted in us that we are all supposed to somehow intuitively, gropingly suss out what is happening next. Operating this way, being a rather pointlessly stupid means of communication, can certainly lead to confusion, and to some situations where it is unclear whether the move one makes is wanted.

- For this reason, I welcome the new era that we are entering where people do not, by default, operate in this fashion! Instead, we work on communicating openly and looking to make sure the person(s) we are with are enjoying our company and what is happening.

- However, it would never occur to me, nor would I think it is ok, to whip it out and stick it in with someone I have never so much as discussed the topic with and who has not specifically invited me to (with words!).

- I would not take a peck, or even making out, as license to penetrate.

- I would not assume lying next to a woman is regarded as an open invitation to sex.

- I would not read her unzipping her pants as license to penetration. Even in the 'grey' stage, and in the interest of reading verbal cues, I would think this may mean an invitation to some sexual engagement... but this is not the same as immediate penetration!

- Her 'no's would have a strong effect on me.

- I would not ignore her pleas to wear a condom, if it got to that point. (Of course, I would have brought it up myself, but putting that aside.)

- I would have wanted to discuss all of this first.

 

Perhaps I am not the average cis het male -- but I think most cis het males would agree, at the very least with most of this. (And if they I am wrong, so much the worse for them, and so much the more societal change we need.)

 

I would not want to engage in such a manner, and it makes me sad to think of a world where women are 'not supposed' to invite men to their room because... it means spontaneous penetration is possible?!

 

It is not the woman's job to make sure she is not assaulted. Yes, I understand that by directing her not to, say, invite a man to her room again unless she is primed for (what, immediate penetration?), the intention is to 'protect' her. But it also keeps the discussion solidly on what the woman has done 'wrong' in this situation. When the actor was, in fact, the man, based on what we have been told. It was the man who did this. It was his responsibility to gain consent. By continually turning the discussion to her 'role', we cloud this most essential point.

 

Not every form of mistreatment need be the same. No, as someone mentioned (OP?), it is not the same as being assaulted by a stranger on the street. There is a continuum of maltreatment. It is not murder, either! It is still wrong.

[Batya33]

Luckily with the at least 20 men I shared beds with (and I had far fewer than 10 sexual partners) it was never an issue because I had a one sentence discussion with a sober guy after we’d been out a number of times and discussed having a sleepover or going on a trip “I’d love to have you stay over and I’m not ready to have sex with you”. That conversation happened before we were alone. No issues. And I can’t stand the implication that somehow that is not ok because it’s not worth it to cuddle or make out or have foreplay without going all the way or that somehow a man can’t control himself or will feel resentful. The only men who ended things with me over sex do not because we had a no intercourse sleepover but because I wanted to wait months until we were in love and committed and with potential for marriage. The men who stayed over had similar values to mine - we would wait for intercourses intil we were more serious. I did make a few mistakes for sure and I regret those but the vast majority - really enhanced our time together. I did not tease or lead on. And no one ever declined the invitation and very few tried to have sex. It’s all about communication and that meant a lot more fun for us and shared intimacy and shared morning breath.

[ThatwasThen]

Too many young men watch porn where no one asks for anything and it's mostly all about the man. These young men are getting the wrong idea, particularly when there is no one at home giving them the talk and most schools aren't teaching about consent.

[Kfizzle]

 

I don't agree with the OP's assumptions and expectations with what happened - I don't think she was fair in what she expected this guy to understand from what she said/did/didn't say. And I also agree with Itsallgrand that it sounds like a very unpleasant experience and should be hashed out with a counselor or someone of that caliber -an outsider she trusts or can trust.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, only to a certain point: our conversation prior to getting in the cab: I shouldve made much clearer reservations with him and set firmer boundaries in place. I shouldve outright told him DIRECTLY that it was NOT an invitation for sex. Rather than just telling him I'm inviting him over "just because I didnt want him to have to pay for a hotel room for himself, and that I was fine with just cuddling, talking and watching the show he wanted to introduce me to". Before, I kinda thought that how I presented that to him prior tO ordering an Uber to my place had made it CLEAR ENOUGH that I wasnt inviting him over for sex. But some guys just dont get the hint, and I shouldve been more clear.

 

However I dont see why I'm being patronized and having my actions and expectations called something other than ambiguous. Yes, I admit I was regrettably ambiguous at some points, and I'll even add that they were confusing and could be misconstrued (and were indeed misconstrued by him). But UNFAIR????? Hmm, didnt think I'd see that term pop up. Lol Sorry, but EXCUSE ME? UNFAIR? Hmm, who in this situation got what they wanted, again, EVEN after I said NO?

 

I have been able to have date scenarios much like yourself, in an intimate setting at someones home, where laughs and talks are shared, lots of *non*sexual fun is experienced, and it was all done with using a very similar, if not this SAME EXACT APPROACH before as i used with this man. How the he** IS my expectation of the most basic common courtesy that i would expect from any fellow human being exactly UNFAIR? And i shall wait for your response, because I am damn intrigued by what your answer will be. :)