Was I date raped if I didn't consent until it was already too late?

[Morello]

Well, if you didn't scream or hit him, legally it is not rape. I mean, if you believe that he raped you and you didn't do anything to prevent this, from an outsider's perspective you consented. Really though, there is a difference between being physically stimulated and mentally stimulated. Physical stimulation is your body's reaction and sometimes you can't handle it but you said you enjoyed it which means that you mentally liked it.

 

She said no. Please point me to where it is written that victims need to scream or fight with the abuser for it to be considered rape. "Didn't do anything to prevent this". Really? Stop being a jerk.

[katrina1980]

 

The way it's reading is, she had sex with her boyfriend and is now either feeling guilty about it or had a fight with him and is now crying rape.

 

 

Oh Sherry, I don't agree with that at all.

 

The way it's reading to me is that, while yes she did willingly get in bed with him to cuddle and unzipped her own pants, she was NOT prepared for him to so quickly and aggressively climb on top of her and start f***ing her.

 

She was *expecting* a bit of foreplay (fingering, caressing?) and apparently also for him to ask permission to enter her before just climbing on top and ramming it in the way he did.

 

So I DO believe she felt (and still feels) very violated.

 

Also, when in a situation like that, as I've been there myself many years ago, you go into a sort of "shock" and can feel almost paralyzed to do anything *in that moment.*

 

It's only later when the shock wears off that you start realizing what happened, and questioning your own reality including your own role in what went down.

 

Which is why I believe the OP started this thread. She's confused and came here to gain more clarity from the opinions of others.

 

OP, there is a lot of ambiguity from a legal standpoint, unfortunately.

 

I work in law and date rape is almost impossible to prove in a court of law, although if it makes you feel better and more empowered to report this and bring charges, please do so.

 

Cope is right; unfortunately there is a lot of victim-shaming by society which prevents women from reporting it; heck I was drugged (rohypnol) and then sodomized, and I never even told anyone, including my own friends and family for years!

 

You sort of go into a denial about it, shoving it down, which isn't healthy so I applaud you for reachng out and starting this thread!

 

I'm sorry you experienced this too, but please know you will get through it, perhaps even becomimg stronger and smarter for having experienced it and survived.

 

I did!

 

Best of luck.

 

((hugs))

[Kfizzle]

Dias: no, I enjoyed it in a physical sense. It can go both ways. Mentally, I felt like absolute gutter trash, if you want to know the truth. So no. I didnt enjoy it in that way, by any stretch of the imaginatiom

[Wiseman2]

Do you think it was or is this purely for debating what it is?

that is not the same guy

[Cope]

KtheViolinHead, I'm so glad you are feeling more and more confident about yourself and the situation. We're here for you! ((hug))

[dias]

Dias: no, I enjoyed it in a physical sense. It can go both ways. Mentally, I felt like absolute gutter trash, if you want to know the truth. So no. I didnt enjoy it in that way, by any stretch of the imaginatiom

 

Fair enough. I didn't say that you shouldn't feel violated and I do understand that maybe you didn't have time to react but I don't think your claim would stand in a court. This point is really obscure. Rape is a hefty word for this incident in my opinion.

[Hollyj]

I would have been yelling and pushing the guy off. The fact that there were roommates in the home.

 

Use much better judgement, next time. Do not bring guys to your bed and remove your clothing.

 

I do think it is awful that this guy slipped it in without your knowledge. Please get tested.

[empath]

I am so sorry that you experienced this assault, OP.

 

Some others, such as Cope, have perhaps addressed this sufficiently, so I just wanted to chime in and offer my sympathy and reiterate some thoughts.

 

I have never been sexually assaulted, and I am a man, yet I can TOTALLY understand how difficult it would be to respond in a moment like the one you experienced. You were surprised, and vulnerable for a host of reasons. Why is it so hard for people to imagine themselves in that position, I wonder?

 

Nevertheless, it does not matter whether it is difficult to respond (and especially not whether I or anyone else can put ourselves in your place), or if the assaulter is physically strong, or if you invited him over, or if you kissed him, etc. Given some of the responses (here, and other time similarly traumatic events are posted on ENA), it is clear that our society is still struggling to achieve that future place where everyone can feel, and be, respected in body (and mind), and not be coerced into activity that they did not wish for!

 

To reiterate what others have said, even legally, one need not 'scream', 'hit', etc., for it to be assault. As others have noted, the legal question is completely distinct from the moral one, and even more so 'ability to convince others within our legal system of someone's guilt'. Sexual assault has been notoriously hard to prosecute, given how the system is stacked against women and sexual assault survivors (though one hopes that is slowly changing). While states vary regarding the specifics, lack of consent is what is important, not the victim's response to coercion (whether the coercion is by physical force or not!).

 

You did not consent to his penetration -- or to his lack of use of a condom, a second assault. Whether or not you had experiences of physical pleasure has no bearing on that, and was not something that you could control. All that mattered was consent; he did not obtain it, or appear to even try, and appeared to ignore the signs of your dissent.

 

Consent is always needed, and is also required every step along the way (is it a new step? is it a new act?).

 

You can change your mind at any time and it is the partner's obligation to stop. Yes, even if he is inside you!

 

I am glad that you are in a place where you are able to openly confront this, feel anger about it, and have taken measures to protect yourself. I hope talking about it helps, too. Best wishes, OP, and again, I am sorry that you experienced this: it. was. not. right.

 

For others still working through this stuff, I would suggest taking 5 seconds to google it, and please do before your next sexual encounter! Here's a super-fast primer:

https://www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent

 

(Honestly, I'm surprised this kind of thing is not stickied somewhere at ENA...)

[figureitout23]

I have never been raped *knock on wood* so I would never tell a man or woman what theyre feeling is wrong, what I am going to say is simply my observation not an opinion on whether or not you were raped because ultimately you were there and you know what happened.

 

To me, this is an incredibly gray situation. Younger people may do things differently, I don't know, I personally have never been alone in an intimate setting ( cuddling at my house) with a man I was dating, without sex being a potential outcome. It seems like it wasn't completely off the table but rather something that would have been ok if discussed a bit more.

 

Again, your ultimate feelings are yours. My advice going forward would be to not bring a date home until sex is on the table. No judgement at all I promise you, I really think for your own emotional and physical well being you should slow all the way down. It seems you don't know your boundaries, so I'm going to assume you are not asserting them ahead of time, which to me is incredibly imortant so grey areas like this don't occur. Again for your own emotional and physical wellbeing, take a break and work on yourself.

 

ETA : in the eyes of the law, if you aren't even 100% sure a jury will have a hard time as well.From here on out please avoid grey areas.

[Cope]

This is a nice video explaining consent; covers most likely all of the circumstances:

 

[figureitout23]

Cope, excellent video, very black and white, unfortunately, this instance was grey. Again I'm not going to sit here and label what she expierienced, but being familiar with her posts, I know she is a woman who really, really, really, need to slow down and learn about herself, her wants, boundaries and most of all communication ( not basing that statement on this post) If you're kinda shoving her into the victim box, it's no better than posters dismissing what she's saying.

 

Let HER decide.

[empath]

I do love that video, Cope!

 

While I do certainly think that we are in the process of entering a new era regarding sexual relations -- one which I am delighted about -- I do recognize that the shifts can be confusing for many people, especially when we are not very young anymore.

 

Nevertheless, I do not see, from my viewpoint, anything grey at all about the event as described with respect to consent. As far as described, he never tried to obtain consent. Clear as day! And ignored signs of dissent. I fail to see how their lying together makes the situation 'grey'; there are many behaviors that would not be warranted in such a situation.

 

I do agree that ultimately it is OP's situation and her voice that matters most!

[Cope]

Figureitout, although empath pretty much covered me, thing is, I don't see OP's experience as a gray area and I also think the video even covered those areas too. Because of that, I don't think I'm shoving her into the victim box, yet I agree that it's ultimately her choice to decide what went on!

 

Like empath stated, the process of the world changing is long and can be confusing, that's why I get a little "passionate" about subjects like these.

 

@KtheViolinHead I apologise if you felt like I was forcing you to be the victim, not my intention! Hope you're doing well!

[figureitout23]

I do love that video, Cope!

 

While I do certainly think that we are in the process of entering a new era regarding sexual relations -- one which I am delighted about -- I do recognize that the shifts can be confusing for many people, especially when we are not very young anymore.

 

Nevertheless, I do not see, from my viewpoint, anything grey at all about the event as described with respect to consent. As far as described, he never tried to obtain consent. Clear as day! And ignored signs of dissent. I fail to see how their lying together makes the situation 'grey'; there are many behaviors that would not be warranted in such a situation.

 

I do agree that ultimately it is OP's situation and her voice that matters most!

 

Grey:

 

Boyfriend and girlfriend, I noticed that title in one of the subsequent posts, together for a month, alone together watching a movie.

 

She kissed him.

 

Unzipped pants.

 

Asks if he has a condom.

 

I am NOT saying she did anything wrong, please don't think I am. Nor am I saying no doesn't mean no because it does.

 

I understand consent, a big part of consent is communication and if you are not very good at basic communication because you aren't 100% sure where you even stand, it's cause for confusion. I think as a young lady who has some .... maturity issues... she should take some time to herself, really allow herself to process this event, and take some more time to herself, to learn who she is.

 

Like I said, this is going to be a very personal thing and I wish you all the luck navigating things kitty please post if it helps. I'm sorry you are going through this and I mean that.

[Cope]

Oh don't worry, I know you don't think she did anything wrong!

 

Another fact is that a lot of people consider rape to be only committed by strangers in a dark alley. Most rapes are from people you know, a lot of rapes are committed by spouses and many more by a family member.

 

Still, a no is a no.

[Cope]

Anther thing. Society accepts the fact that a man can hear a no and translate it in his mind as a yes, or a maybe; we accept that "Even a no is confusing", yet we can't accept the fact that a woman, being in such a vulnerable position should just be firm, decisive and get up and leave. She's not allowed to be confused when she's attacked by the guy she's dating/her lover/her spouse/her father etc.

[katrina1980]

empath, question re consent since you seem to be experienced with this, or knowledgeable.

 

In law, there is something called "implied consent" which is often taken into consideration before determining if a crime has occurred.

 

"Implied consent is consent that is not expressly granted by a person but rather implicitly granted by a person's actions and the circumstances of a particular situation (or in some cases by a person's silence or inaction)."

 

It's usually consideted when determining drunk driving situations but sometimes sexual assault as well specifically date rape.

 

This *is* a gray area with respect to implied consent via certain actions (getting into bed with him, unzipping her own pants, not screaming out, not running out of the room and other actions/inactions that would be considered ambiguous under the law.)

 

BUT, emotionally for the OP? Definitely *not* a gray area, she did not want it, she said NO. He should have stopped at that moment (not forced her to drink the tea)! No question about it!

 

But he did not stop, he continued on, she said "okay" -- thus the gray area. No?

 

So how does one navigate that? The implied consent aspect of this, under the law?

 

If you've read my previous post, you know I am NOT blaming the OP, this happened to me!

 

So I understand and empathize 100%!!

 

However, I never considered myself a "victim," I don't like that word and think we should get rid.

 

I prefer "survivor" - in all situations that happen in life wherein one feels powerless and violated.

 

OP, you okay? Please check in and let us know how you're doing!

[figureitout23]

Nvm, it worked :)

[Hollyj]

How did it happen a second time? OP, why didn't you throw him out?

[katrina1980]

How did it happen a second time? OP, why didn't you throw him out?

 

My guess would be she was in a state of "shock" at that moment and felt temporarily paralyzed and powerless.

 

It's so easy for others to say "you should have done this or that, ran out of the room, screamed, kicked him in the balls"!

 

But when in the actual situation, it's a whole different thing. You're scared, in shock, feel paralyzed -- in that moment. Everyone's emotional reactions will be different.

 

I'm strong and pretty tough emotionally but I can certainly understand how or why a woman would feel that way when this type of thing happens.

[abitbroken]

sorry, if you get in bed with a guy you are dating, you can't be shocked if they make a move on you. If you don't want sex with someone at all -- they don't spend the night. I don't care how far away they live. you arrange the plans of the evening so that they are back to their uber or subway before things close for the night, or when they come in, you show them where the guest room is and are very clear about that. Or ask a male friend who lives nearby to put them up.

 

If you didn't want it the first time (although giggling a joke and not saying no when he went for your zipper is confusing), how did you allow it the second time --- why did you not zip yourself up, stand up, leave the room, kick him out ? I mean, it just astounds me how you just went back to cuddling.

 

you need to let your actions align with your intent. Inviting someone to your home for the first time during the day with a clear leaving time, or clearly being strong in your actions about your expectations (that this is just a crashing over out of convenience and not an invite for sex - don't lay next to him in the wee hours of the night).

[Kfizzle]

Hi everyone! OP here.I'm just checking in to say that I'm currently reading and processing all these responses, and am staggered by your support. And even if my actions that night don't make sense to you, I wholeheartedly appreciate your advice, and please know that its not falling on deaf ears! :). I'm still trying to take everything in, So will be back to respond to individual comments in a short bit

[Batya33]

I would have been yelling and pushing the guy off. The fact that there were roommates in the home.

 

Use much better judgement, next time. Do not bring guys to your bed and remove your clothing.

 

I do think it is awful that this guy slipped it in without your knowledge. Please get tested.

 

Yes. So to me, it's essential you stay sober with a new person you're going to be in private with (not because you deserve to be raped! - just for safety) - second you have to have a sober calm discussion before inviting a man home where you're going to fool around and be in the bedroom about your boundaries (and even if sex is ok, maybe get clear on protection, etc in case you don't know that already from past discussions) - and third, no is no so he should have stopped if you actually said a clear "no" without qualifications. I don't blame him for trying intercourse because as I read it there was no clear discussion and you let him in your bed, under a blanket, foreplay so I don't blame him for assuming that would be ok with you. I do think he needed to get off of you as soon as you said no even if he had "blue balls". I think you gave mixed messages both with your body language, invitation and what you said and didn't say so I probably wouldn't press charges. I don't think it's relevant at all to whether it was rape that you enjoyed it physically - you can still be a victim. I'm sorry he didn't stop when you asked and I can see both sides of this.

[itsallgrand]

I think it'd be good for you to talk with a therapist. Most major cities have women's resource centres and/or crisis centres. You can often even speak on the phone or online, and there are often drop ins where you can speak to someone quickly for emergency situations like this.

 

I'm not going to comment on if it is legally rape or not, I don't feel qualified to. It sounds extremely distressing though, and it was tough to read. It's an experience I hope you will never have to go through again.

 

You sound so conflicted inside. Your actions were conflicted too. Maybe talking to someone can help you with that.

 

I'd also suggest going to see a doctor soon as well. Take care of your psychological and physical safety. Hugs. Sorry this happened.

[Kfizzle]

Abitbroken: ok ill just start from this most recent response and work my way back.

So yes, thank you for the response. This happened when my roommates and I were a week away from moving out so believe it or not, all furniture was gone (I.e. couches, futons) and there definitely wasn't a guest bedroom or anywhere else he could have slept. I also just moved to this city so knew no male in the vicinity whose place that this guy could crash at for the night.

 

ALSO, I MADE IT VERY CLEAR TO HIM BEFORE we got an Uber back to my place that it *was* for convenience and just so he wouldn't have to book a hotel for himself for the night. I told him he would be sleeping alongside me in my bed, since our furniture was gone, and that I was ok to just cuddle, talk, and watch this show he wanted to introduce me to. Sex was not even mentioned, so I didn't say it was on or off the table. I'm laid back, and pretty passionate (although clear about boundaries, yet I myself don't know where the day/night might take us, so I leave everything *open for discussion if and when it gets to that point*, hence, if I don't mention sex, any type of guy I'm *used* to dating is smart enough and gentleman enough to take that as a *clear* signal that its possible, but not inevitable, and that I'm clearly not thinking about it from the get go if I don't allude to it. Also, any guy I'm used to dating *also* realizes and understands that it *needs* to be discussed prior to anything happening, however briefly so,if he's already in his throes of passion, and that it needs to be discussed prior to him assuming that I'm ready or even want it. I have always been fortunate enough with guys who take this hint in the past, this neutral approach but clear defining of boundaries has ALWAYS worked for me in the past, and led to either a night at someone's abode that was either full of us playing board games, Jenga, cooking together, with no sex involved and both of us being clear and communicative with each other that it was perfectly great without it (didnt mean it didnt happen at a later date though lol), or a night of the same *with* sex involved and clear communication in either instance. Its my fault I didn't realize this guy was actually a numbnuts who would have complete disregard for anything and everything.

 

So with this guy, I *mistakenly* didn't ask him if he would be able to control himself since we would be in the same bed, because I've never had to ask a grown a$$ man that question before...Not making excuses for myself, but... Like I mentioned in a previous post, the few guys I had dated and either went back to their place or invited them back to my place in the past, had respected me enough to be grown a$$ men and *communicated* to me on their own (and *before* we get to the point where we're at one another's more intimate dwelling/place of residence), as to whether or not they would be able to exercise that self control after I state those boundaries. With this guy, he said 'ok, sounds good' after I stated all this to him and we hopped in the Uber. You see now? I tend to over-verify with people, as it is, but I've *never* before had to ask a man that question in succession of placing my boundaries. and that approach has *never* led to something like this...until now.

 

And yes, if you read the post, I said that i *did* say "no, stop it" after making that ninja joke to him when he tried taking off my bra. To which he obliged, but not for long. Even an 'I want you so bad right now' or *something* on his end would have sufficed while my pants were being taken off and we were in the moment, so I couldve decided the next route of action to take accordingly, and just so I would have SOME verbal primer from him as far as gauging what he wanted, so that I could please him in other ways if I wasn't ready for the big HUURRAHH! just yet. I did not realize this man wasn't wearing underwear until he already had it *in* there, and didn't realize that he had *that* easy of access to do whatever he wanted with me. *that* was also a big problem.