Broke up with commitment-phobe (again)... Did I do the right thing?

[Shopgirl1980]

Trust me I've totally been in similiar relationships before. Even if you were to move there and live together I suspect it would become toxic soon. I lived with what I deemed a "lovable alcoholic" for years in what become a volatile and abusive relationship. It sounds like the person you were seeing is still emotionally stunted and selfish. I totally could understand if he disappeared for a couple days but gave you a heads up or had been seeing someone professionally to deal with him issues. Instead he's just doing the same thing but expects you to just go along with it. I suggest you start investing time in yourself and make yourself happy.

[lostlove76]

Shopgirl:

Yes, he is for sure emotionally stunted (probably from drinking for so long) and selfish (he's an only child, not sure if that has anything to do with self-centeredness). Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

 

ETA:

p.s. Did your alcoholic exhibit any of these same behaviors? Commitment/intimacy-phobia? Going MIA? Selfishness?

[Wiseman2]

There are some excellent points here. Alcoholics or heavy partiers are notoriously unreliable. They are also fun and charming. It's quite common for those involved with them to say "when it's good, it's great" alluding to the chronic alternating of fun and charm vs. angst and disappointment.

Trust me I've totally been in similiar relationships before. Even if you were to move there and live together I suspect it would become toxic soon. I lived with what I deemed a "lovable alcoholic" for years in what become a volatile and abusive relationship. It sounds like the person you were seeing is still emotionally stunted and selfish. I totally could understand if he disappeared for a couple days but gave you a heads up or had been seeing someone professionally to deal with him issues. Instead he's just doing the same thing but expects you to just go along with it. I suggest you start investing time in yourself and make yourself happy.

[lostlove76]

There are some excellent points here. Alcoholics or heavy partiers are notoriously unreliable. They are also fun and charming. It's quite common for those involved with them to say "when it's good, it's great" alluding to the chronic alternating of fun and charm vs. angst and disappointment.

 

I wonder what makes them so unreliable. The alcohol messing with their minds over the long term? Changes in mood due to level of drunk and hungover? I like to drink, and though I don't have to drink every day, when I drink I drink too much. I guess when I'm hungover no one could count on me for anything. But he makes it to work just fine, without fail. Maybe because he couldn't get away with missing work, but knows he can get away with not calling because I'm still here. I wish I knew how to not let him get away with it, short of leaving him for good. I try so hard not to be a doormat. I give him hell when he doesn't call, and I don't let him back in easily by any means. Not sure what else I can do. I'm getting off point though.... back to your point, I guess I'm naive about alcoholism. I "know" that drinking makes them unreliable, but I don't really understand why.

[reinventmyself]

As for the dating sites, he quit getting on the second I said something. He's like a child who will get away with things until you put your foot down. Is there any way to put my foot down about the not calling for days? I've tried everything I know to do. Fussing doesn't work. Ignoring his calls when he calls again doesn't work. Explaining how I feel doesn't work. I'm open to suggestions. They say people only treat you how you allow. I'm confused on how not to "allow" this behavior.

I'm sorry if I'm mistaken, but hasn't he gone to dating sites more than once? I get that he stops when you call him out but if I recall it's not an isolated incident.

And as far saying he'll try to get away with something until you put your foot down, is this the traits of a mature adult capable of a responsible relationship.

You are not his mom.

[boltnrun]

LOL at that "Mars/Venus" book. Sorry.

 

I've been in a consistent love relationship and never, not once, did the man "rubberband" or "cave". He enjoyed our closeness and craved the same amount I did.

 

It's certain people, not men in general.

 

As for moving in with him, you really don't have a choice but to wait, do you? Because he's apparently done nothing to make that happen except to SAY he wants it to.

 

This relationship works perfectly for him. For you, apparently not so much.

[reinventmyself]

By the way, you can't have an intimate, connected relationship with someone who is in an altered state. You arent dealing with the true person.

It makes them navailable

[lostlove76]

I'm sorry if I'm mistaken, but hasn't he gone to dating sites more than once? I get that he stops when you call him out but if I recall it's not an isolated incident.

 

Hmm. Over a year ago, before we defined things as exclusive and in-a-relationship, he was on. I can't really count that because we hadn't had "the talk," and everything changed after I walked away because of that and he came back and committed to a relationship.

 

While he was living here and we were in a relationship, there was one time he got on and I called him on it immediately because I was always checking to see if he was on. He hadn't been on previous to that, and didn't get on after I said something.

 

The main thing I was talking about before is that once he started calling again after moving and we were back together, he was getting on one almost daily. I was watching and never said anything. He would get on and right back off, like he was just checking it once a day for the most part -- not spending extended time on there like he was chatting or looking for long. When I finally said something, he didn't get back on, period - until I stopped talking to him after making this thread, and he thought I was done with him for good. But since we made up again, he hasn't been back on even once.

[Hermes]

Here goes:

 

An explanation:

 

"Alcoholism is only a symptom of an underlying problem. Put down the drink and you still have the problem – the alcoholic mind and their turbulent emotions.

 

Brain chemistry is genetically linked to alcoholism along with many other mental health issues. Alcoholics are often controlling, manipulative, insecure and depressive. They fear abandonment, they have low self-esteem and are arrested in their emotional development. They have difficulty forming healthy relationships because they never deal with their emotions in a normal adult manner. The terrible emotional pain and suppression they inflict on themselves and those around them, often results in a virtual loss of identity."

 

 

[boltnrun]

Wow, the list of "it's wonderful, except when he..." keeps getting longer.

 

Two choices: One, continue on and remain anxious or Two, end it. Option Two you won't do because you "love" him. So, it's Option One.

 

Just accept the anxiety that goes with this relationship and carry on, I guess.

[lostlove76]

LOL at that "Mars/Venus" book. Sorry.

 

I've been in a consistent love relationship and never, not once, did the man "rubberband" or "cave". He enjoyed our closeness and craved the same amount I did.

 

It's certain people, not men in general.

 

As for moving in with him, you really don't have a choice but to wait, do you? Because he's apparently done nothing to make that happen except to SAY he wants it to.

 

This relationship works perfectly for him. For you, apparently not so much.

 

Okay... I've heard others scoff at the Mars/Venus book, so that's interesting that you say this. Good to know that not all men do it. And like you say, maybe it's not even just men who are prone to it, but certain people. I certainly do it myself!!! (cave and rubberband) I do it to the extreme, really, and all the time. I don't hardly do it with him, but with everyone else in my life, yes I do. So it made a certain sense to me when I read it, and like I said, it fits him to a tee - it could have been written by him specifically.

 

Yep, no choice but to wait.

 

And yep on your last line.

 

ETA: UGH, sorry. I need to go back and uncheck the multi-quotes, kind of a pain.

[reinventmyself]

I still have a soft spot for you lostlove, but you have a solid defense case to support what you both are doing. I'm not sure what else can be said.

You seem to want reassurance from us when you feel anxiety but I cant help but think the anxiety is a symptom of a larger issue.

 

I used to be you where I thought my anxiety was the cause of all my troubles, but time, commitment and therapy I learned that it was my troubles or the act of defending them and therefore putting myself in unhealthy situations was the cause of anxiety. Not the other way around.

 

So now when I'm feeling anxious I look within and ask myself what I'm avoiding or what am I lying to myself about

In the throws of anxiety, it's like a riddle you can't figure out. But with practice and discipline you can get yourself out of the puzzle.

 

Right now, you're doing it backwards. Your anxiety isn't the issue. The issues are the cause of your anxiety.

[lostlove76]

Here goes:

 

An explanation:

 

"Alcoholism is only a symptom of an underlying problem. Put down the drink and you still have the problem – the alcoholic mind and their turbulent emotions.

 

Brain chemistry is genetically linked to alcoholism along with many other mental health issues. Alcoholics are often controlling, manipulative, insecure and depressive. They fear abandonment, they have low self-esteem and are arrested in their emotional development. They have difficulty forming healthy relationships because they never deal with their emotions in a normal adult manner. The terrible emotional pain and suppression they inflict on themselves and those around them, often results in a virtual loss of identity."

 

 

 

Thank you!!! I will read that whole article.

 

I guess, to me, alcoholism is like any other "mental illness" - I can't blame or judge him for it, because it's not really his fault. It's genetic, and it's extremely hard to overcome. So I figure, find a way to work within it instead of dropping him for it. I just wonder how much of this he IS in control of (the inconsistency and such). Seems if you KNOW you're doing something, you could change it. But maybe it's all mood-based. When I'm in a crabby mood, I'm quite irritable with people - even though I know I'm doing it and that it's "wrong" I still do it, because it's how I feel in the moment. Anyway, I'll read the link, thanks so much for the quote, makes sense.

[reinventmyself]

Thank you!!! I will read that whole article.

 

I guess, to me, alcoholism is like any other "mental illness" - I can't blame or judge him for it, because it's not really his fault. It's genetic, and it's extremely hard to overcome. So I figure, find a way to work within it instead of dropping him for it. I just wonder how much of this he IS in control of (the inconsistency and such). Seems if you KNOW you're doing something, you could change it. But maybe it's all mood-based. When I'm in a crabby mood, I'm quite irritable with people - even though I know I'm doing it and that it's "wrong" I still do it, because it's how I feel in the moment. Anyway, I'll read the link, thanks so much for the quote, makes sense.

Oh my friend. He has as much control of his drinking as you do your anxiety.

I hope you see the double standard in your reasoning

[boltnrun]

Thank you!!! I will read that whole article.

 

I guess, to me, alcoholism is like any other "mental illness" - I can't blame or judge him for it, because it's not really his fault. It's genetic, and it's extremely hard to overcome. So I figure, find a way to work within it instead of dropping him for it. I just wonder how much of this he IS in control of (the inconsistency and such). Seems if you KNOW you're doing something, you could change it. But maybe it's all mood-based. When I'm in a crabby mood, I'm quite irritable with people - even though I know I'm doing it and that it's "wrong" I still do it, because it's how I feel in the moment. Anyway, I'll read the link, thanks so much for the quote, makes sense.

 

You're making excuses for him. Same with the dating sites, you choose to give him a "hard time" and monitor him, but you stay, so why should he change his behavior?

 

My grandfather didn't get help, and look how he ended up. His family finally left him, but by then it was too late. He'd drunk himself to death.

 

Yes, it's "hard" to overcome, but I guarantee my grandfather didn't have an easy death. If he'd gotten help instead of taking the "easy" way out (continuing to drink even when his health was failing) he wouldn't have ended up dying a painful death alone.

 

BTW, one of my exes never did change no matter what I did. Because I didn't do the one thing I should have done, which was to leave him permanently. He even told me at one point that he never changed because I kept coming back, so he figured I must like the way he behaved. Why change if there are zero consequences?

[lostlove76]

I still have a soft spot for you lostlove, but you have a solid defense case to support what you both are doing. I'm not sure what else can be said.

You seem to want reassurance from us when you feel anxiety but I cant help but think the anxiety is a symptom of a larger issue.

 

I used to be you where I thought my anxiety was the cause of all my troubles, but time, commitment and therapy I learned that it was my troubles or the act of defending them and therefore putting myself in unhealthy situations was the cause of anxiety. Not the other way around.

 

So now when I'm feeling anxious I look within and ask myself what I'm avoiding or what am I lying to myself about

In the throws of anxiety, it's like a riddle you can't figure out. But with practice and discipline you can get yourself out of the puzzle.

 

Right now, you're doing it backwards. Your anxiety isn't the issue. The issues are the cause of your anxiety.

 

Hmm. I'll have to give this some thought. In a way it makes sense, and I kind of see what you're saying. Like what came first, the chicken or the egg sort of thing? But I've always had anxiety, always always. I had it before he came along. And I'll have it after (just not about him, once I get over him). I've always had problems distrusting people... even people who I now know can be fully trusted, like my parents. So while I can appreciate what is being said about him being the cause of my anxiety, I just know that I have anxiety even without him. And I know that I've always had anxiety in every relationship, even with consistent stable guys who I didn't even like all that much in hindsight. That's why I have a REALLY hard time differentiating between what is my own issues vs. what he is causing.

 

I'm not sure what else can be said

I get this, and I understand if people bow out. I will say that all of this is really helping, because it's opening my eyes to new ways of thinking about this, and as I've said, sometimes I need a reality check. I do spend a lot of time defending. I think some of that, though, is just my tendency to keep bouncing ideas back and forth and looking at all sides of everything. I don't want it to get to the point where I drive you all crazy.

[Hermes]

LL.

 

Just saying, kindly, that you are deluding yourself.

 

It is not your job to "fix" anyone.

[lostlove76]

Oh my friend. He has as much control of his drinking as you do your anxiety.

I hope you see the double standard in your reasoning

 

Definitely - I see that. What I was trying to say/ask, was how much control does he have over certain behaviors that are perhaps caused by the drinking -- like the inconsistency. I myself am also pretty unreliable with everyone, because of my anxiety... because if I say I'll do something, but the time comes and I'm having a lot of anxiety over it, I won't do it. It's not because I don't care or don't love the person. And people who are close to me understand this and forgive me for it, probably way more than they should. If it's a similar case with him, then I'm a lot more likely to be forgiving and understanding than if it's just that he simply doesn't give a sh*t.

 

Does that make sense?

[reinventmyself]

I think most people with anxiety disorders can look back and see that it's been a life long struggle. Not to the degree it is at times but I can look back and see as a child I was anxious. Tho I didn't realize it, didn't have the words to describe it, after all its all relative when it's all you know as a child

 

But as an adult with GAD you can put into practice taking care of yourself and avoiding anxiety provoking situations.

 

Based on what you are sharing I believe you do know the difference but you're just not willing to do the hard part.

 

The hard part is limiting certian people and certain situations that trigger you.

 

But I for one believe you know the difference.

[boltnrun]

Definitely - I see that. What I was trying to say/ask, was how much control does he have over certain behaviors that are perhaps caused by the drinking -- like the inconsistency. I myself am also pretty unreliable with everyone, because of my anxiety... because if I say I'll do something, but the time comes and I'm having a lot of anxiety over it, I won't do it. It's not because I don't care or don't love the person. And people who are close to me understand this and forgive me for it, probably way more than they should. If it's a similar case with him, then I'm a lot more likely to be forgiving and understanding than if it's just that he simply doesn't give a sh*t.

 

Does that make sense?

 

So how do you intend to make this relationship work?

 

If you're both running away from each other, how are you ever going to be together?

 

It sounds to me like you're going to have an inconsistent phone relationship for however long each of you is willing to put up with it.

[reinventmyself]

Definitely - I see that. What I was trying to say/ask, was how much control does he have over certain behaviors that are perhaps caused by the drinking -- like the inconsistency. I myself am also pretty unreliable with everyone, because of my anxiety... because if I say I'll do something, but the time comes and I'm having a lot of anxiety over it, I won't do it. It's not because I don't care or don't love the person. And people who are close to me understand this and forgive me for it, probably way more than they should. If it's a similar case with him, then I'm a lot more likely to be forgiving and understanding than if it's just that he simply doesn't give a sh*t.

 

Does that make sense?

Yes. But you are justifying that he is equally damaged and therefore you shouldn't judge.

This is not a foundation for a successful relationship

[lostlove76]

You're making excuses for him. Same with the dating sites, you choose to give him a "hard time" and monitor him, but you stay, so why should he change his behavior?

 

My grandfather didn't get help, and look how he ended up. His family finally left him, but by then it was too late. He'd drunk himself to death.

 

Yes, it's "hard" to overcome, but I guarantee my grandfather didn't have an easy death. If he'd gotten help instead of taking the "easy" way out (continuing to drink even when his health was failing) he wouldn't have ended up dying a painful death alone.

 

BTW, one of my exes never did change no matter what I did. Because I didn't do the one thing I should have done, which was to leave him permanently. He even told me at one point that he never changed because I kept coming back, so he figured I must like the way he behaved. Why change if there are zero consequences?

 

The problem is that the only consequence is being left permanently. And then what good does that do you (the one leaving, when you don't really want to have to leave)? I wish there was some consequence that didn't involve completely leaving.

 

I really am sorry about your grandfather. I know that had to be horrible for your family. And it's sad, for him. And yes, my guy may very well end up like that one day. I guess it's hard to see that far into the future when he's young and appears healthy and keeps his life running well aside from this relationship.

[Hermes]

I fail to see the point. What I ask is: what's in it for you, LL, this "existence" with an inveterate alcoholic.

I never heard before (you learn something new every day) that living with an alcoholic is great therapy for anxiety!

 

Listen, this person loves one thing, and one thing only, and that is the bottle.

 

No, you won't drive us crazy, but you will go crazy yourself. Guaranteed. All that lies before you is sheer desperation.

 

I've seen that with spouses and families of alcoholics, here in 3D.

[lostlove76]

So how do you intend to make this relationship work?

 

If you're both running away from each other, how are you ever going to be together?

 

It sounds to me like you're going to have an inconsistent phone relationship for however long each of you is willing to put up with it.

 

I guess that's what I'm looking for here. I want to know, with no doubts, that I've done everything I can possibly do to make it work, because I love him. If there's something I'm missing, or some way to do things differently, or see things differently, I want to find it. You all seem to think it's a pretty hopeless situation, and while that's hard to hear and accept, it's going to help me when I do decide (again, ugh) to drop him. If this turns into another several-days period of no talking, then I really have to be done and figure out how to be at peace with that and move forward. I can't keep going through the same cycle.

[boltnrun]

You can't make him do anything he doesn't want to do.

 

You can read all the books you want, get as much advice as you want from various sources, but bottom line...relationships work only if BOTH of the parties is receiving what they want and need from the relationship.

 

He's getting everything he wants. You are not. The relationship causes you anxiety or exacerbates it (yes, it does). He is an addict who does not seem to want to get help. You have anxiety and do not seem to want to get help.

 

None of this adds up to anything but an indefinite, unsatisfying (for you) phone relationship that will only end when one of you has had enough.

 

BTW, when is the last time you actually saw him in person?