Avoidant Love vs. Secure/Anxious Love

[Sim54]

The original post describes my ex to a T, but I'm wondering where I fit into it.

 

I fit some of the descriptions, about half, but not the rest. What's the definition of the other kind, the Love Anxious person?

 

I'm with Sim. It's not a case of simply labelling your ex. If you want to truly understand a situation you have to understand yourself as well, and that's where I am now - trying to understand me, and why I found her so attractive being the way she is.

 

Exactly! If you grow yourself, you won't have to worry about meeting someone unhealthy, you simply won't be attracted to them anymore. You won't even notice them.

[EmmaB78]

Just found this thread today, and it's so interesting. I can't believe it, but I read every single post! (And now I'm an hour behind on some work I need to do, lol). My question is, how the heck are you supposed to tell the difference between an avoidant type and someone who just isn't that into you?

 

I'm going to tell a story again that I've told elsewhere so if you've already read it, might want to skip this saga : ). I met a guy online at the beginning of June. We wrote back and forth for a month and a half, and I think he asked me out about 10 times before I agreed (I wasn't trying to play games - just busy at first and also being cautious). I actually even canceled one date that we set up, and told him I wasn't sure I was ready to date at the moment, and he called me to tell me how disappointed he was and hoped I'd reconsider. I thought that was such a nice gesture so I DID reconsider, we went out, had a great time, wound up extending the date from 1 hour to 4, blah blah. He was busy for the next week, but we talked almost every day. I figured, well, he put in such an effort for me, I should ask him out next, did so, and then just didn't hear from him for three days, which he had never done before. I figured I'd misinterpreted his interest and set up a date with someone else, only to have the original guy call me on a Tuesday to say "maybe" we could do something that weekend. We started emailing and texting regularly again, but made no reference to getting together as he didn't bring it up, and there was no way I was going to after his last response. He winds up calling me that Sunday to see if I can do something in a few hours time, and we spend the entire day together.

 

After the second date, I sent him a text telling him how much fun I had and got a vague response. But the next day, I wake up to this email overflowing with how much fun he had with me. So, I wrote back something equally nice, we talked throughout the week about getting together, and then one night he tells me he suddenly doesn't have to work when he thought he did. I say, great, want to do x? and he says, oh, sorry, I made other plans. So later that night, I go do my own thing, and suddenly he's texting me asking me how it's going and do I want to come over after? I go, we stay up all night long talking and hanging out and generally having an amazing time, then we start making out, and suddenly he stops and says he doesn't want a girlfriend right now, and he doesn't know why he put up a dating profile?!?!

 

I tried to stay friends with him for about a week, but he kept asking me about other guys I might be seeing, which made me uncomfortable, and then made some sexual innuendo that made me even more uncomfortable. And we were supposed to get together, but once again he was being vague about plans and wanting to just call me the next week whenever, even though I told him that I was going to be very busy that week and really needed a specific date if he wanted to do something. I figured this was too much work for someone I'd known for so short a time and just shot him an email telling him that he's a really awesome person but that I didn't really want to be friends because we had different expectations, he didn't seem that into it, and it just sort of felt forced. I really didn't think this was that big of a deal as he'd already said he wasn't interested in me romantically and seemed hesitant to ever make any plans anyway, but he blew up at me, sent me a really nasty email calling me needy/insecure/toxic/dependent, which I found very confusing as he had initiated 90% of our communication, and I was cutting off contact not trying to increase it, but whatever. He basically said he never wanted to hear from me again and promptly deleted me from Facebook of all things.

 

Anyway, I shouldn't even be thinking about this guy still as this wasn't even a relationship, but I did like him a lot and thought I had handled it the best I could given that he stated himself that he wasn't interested in a relationship. Also, I'm new to my town and have no one else to obsess over at the moment, lol. Does that sound like an avoidant person to you or someone that just didn't like me that much? One thing I should add is that I know he has a terrible relationship with his mother - he basically said that he doesn't like her because she is "too nice" and he considers it manipulative.

[Tired Tiger]

Hi Emma,

 

I'm not so sure what you're describing here is necessarily an example of avoidant behavior - at least not in the context of attachment style or disorder, et al. To be honest, I would simply take it as his being too flaky to consider entering into something more serious with (that, or there's more to him that you don't know about - married, girlfriend, etc). Red flags abound.

 

With avoidants and ROCD, etc, there's usually a very strong desire to form a close relationship - they can be very charming and passionate, and will move mountains to secure the relationship (well beyond a few dates). The 'running' is triggered by the approach of deeper commitment down the road (living together, engagement, etc). In other words, it's not about fear of entering a relationship, it's the commitments associated with moving beyond the honeymoon stage that instigate the panic, and thus the running away defense mechanisms. Consider yourself fortunate - better to recognize it isn't going to work after a few dates than a couple of years down the road!

[EmmaB78]

That makes sense, TT. I do consider myself fortunate so I was just sitting here thinking to myself, "If I'm so glad I saw his "true colors" so early on, why the hell am I even still thinking about this guy? And writing about him on web-sites???" and I realized that it's this: He somehow managed to turn around me being assertive/standing up for myself/sticking by my boundaries (whatever you want to call it) into me being a needy, desperate loon. He literally told me I had the emotional maturity of a 15-year old!!! Just before deleting me on FB, lol! He also said that I belittle others to make myself feel better in the VERY SAME EMAIL in which he was doing that to me! I think I'm just mad that their is no real way to retaliate (nothing legal anyway, lol). It doesn't really matter if he's avoidant or just a jerk - and, yes, I think it's fair to call him a jerk, not because of the "I don't want a girlfriend" schtick but because of his insensitivity afterward and then the nasty attack email because he was mad I didn't want to stay friends with a guy I met on a friggin' dating site! Bah! I HATE that he got to talk to me like that, and then wrote, "Please don't write back" at the end.

[lozzy1980]

It has taken me a couple of days to read all this and complete all my other work that needs doing at the moment. i am wondering if i always attract love avoidant types,

 

My ex-fiance after 6 yrs got cold feet and called our whole relationship off. and now... i went and met a new guy 2 months ago, who i thought had fell for me really hard and fast... i did always say to him we need to take things slowly, but no, he kept saying he wants a proper relationship with me once he gets his transfer back home(we live 3 hours away from each other so only seen each other once a fortnight). i then recently moved to my new flat (stayed with parents for 6 months after splitting with my ex)

 

we have only been on 5 dates but he we did take things way too fast - slept together second date, but the chemistry was great and it just felt right. also he would phone me every single night and we'd speak sometimes up to 2 hours. he also introduced me to his sister and mother.

 

then.. 2 weeks ago, he got the news he was waiting for - his transfer at work, so he'd be back home which is also where i live. well... since then he has been very distant with me and also said he is not sure now if he wants to move home... he will miss the friends and his work where he has been for nearly 3 yrs.

 

also - he was really hurt by his ex girlfriend... he said he fell for her very fast and moved up north to live wtih her after just 4 months of meeting her... they were together 4 yrs but split up 2 yrs ago - she dumped him to go travelling... they have always kept in contact since, which i think don't help with moving on. she phoned him recently and he told her about me - he said he has found someone who he feels very strongly about and he has moved on. she apparently burst into tears and said she was hoping one day in about 10 yrs (???? i know ?!) that they'd get back together and have children!...anyway that was about a month ago before the transfer... but thought maybe as he was so hurt by her he is scared of new relationships?

 

I went all the way to see him last week for a few nights in a hotel (he is a lodger at his mates parents house so not ideal for us to go back to), and he was so cold and distant.. he said things had happened quite serious at work and he cant talk about it as it winds him up. but still he made me feel so unwanted. then i got the impression he couldnt wait to get rid of me on the saturday. he said he'd call me later. I have not heard a word from him since which is very unusual considering we usually speak on phone every single night, and text occasionally during the day.

 

so.. .. i am pretty confused.... was he really into me and got scared? or, has it just run its course and he thought maybe afterall it just weren't what he was after????? Just wish i knew , but the ball is in his court... i did send him a text on the sat to say id got home ok and i am here if he ever wants to talk. i have left it at tht. i am not going to start pestering him. in fact. i don't think now i want to see him again anyway after that but i would have just liked some closure.

 

and, is this a pattern i am developing,... look at my ex-fiance, and now this guy. Am i stupid at missing red flags for these love avoidant types? .. and it is not like i ever chase them or just stick with them out of any desperation...i am not afraid of being alone in fact, perhaps at present it is probably for the best. i know i am not in love with my ex at all i have moved on from that, but i do still have the painful memories of the betrayal. that is something else

[lozzy1980]

oh forgot to mention his parents split up when he was young, and he has quite a lot of resentment towards his father who he doesnt see very often at all and says he don't care about him at all

[lozzy1980]

update on the recent guy i was seeing : he contacted me tonight, and we actually managed to end things amicably . he admitted he wasnt ready at all to move home , had no where to live even, and so yes he had all this going on his head when he met up with me, he just couldnt decide whether to move or not, and the deadline for his decision was yesterday. I explained to hi that it had also made me realise i am not ready for anything heavy right now and that i was very disappointed in how he treated me this past week, and that i also cannot be with yet another man who will not communicate with me when they ddealing with these issues. so we both agreed it is now best to end things. chatted for about an hour. i am sad but i know it is for the best. plus i now know it would also be long distance still and that was taking its toll.

[italiannmf24]

As this is an interesting thread, I disagree that all "Love Avoidant" people sprout solely from childhood mental or physical abuses/neglection.

 

It'd sound more true if it concluded that when one's trust is abused in a certain relationship, i.e. cheating, emotional abuse, acting bipolar etc. that one may be unable to fully trust his or her next partner.

 

It's a shame that people cheat on others and cause these types of "symptoms" when it comes to loving another.

 

Personally, I don't think that "Love Avoidant" people are only truly created through childhood misfortunes.

[Danmasta]

This is a good thread. I sent the info about avoidant love to my ex and told her this is why all her relationships fail. Because of this and her dependency on attention from other men. She just said yeah you're right and you're the only person to ever call me out. haha

[lozzy1980]

sorry to go on again but my ex fiance was also very critical and very controlling. and yes he did take on the role of a carer towards me and it used to wind me up something rotten!!! his mother has bi-polar and ME and she takes up a lot of mental energy from you , so i guess growing up with that and parents fighting all the time may have added to his love avoidance.... that and yes adult experiences might have played some part - his first love cheated on him and he took it very badly - attempted suicide.

[toby17]

My ex left 3 months ago. After she left, I came accross Levine and Heller's book Attached. I worked out that she's a classic avoidant, and in previous relationships, while I been secure/anxious, with her I became anxious/secure.

 

I look back and realise that she'd been distant for about 2 months before the break-up. But one week before the break-up, I pressed her up on the fact that she'd stop talking about us moving in together.

 

We ran into each other accidentally a few weeks ago and since then she's been turning up where she knows I'm going to be. It's obvious she's still affected by me and even though I've told her clearly we can't be friends, she keeps turning up.

 

She's seems to be happy with just seeing me. And I think being friends is just her way of keeping me in her life in a way she can handle.

 

But what do people think?

 

Is there anything I can do about this girl? I love her and I think she's made a big mistake that I regret and she'll later regret.

Is there any point in giving her a copy of the book?

Anyway to get her face her fears?

 

Having said that, if this girl really wanted to be with me, would anything stop her?

[kuteknish]

How does she know where you are going to be? Are you sure it's not just coincidence?

[toby17]

I'm there every weekday at the same time, we used to see each other there when we were together. And she's avoided it since the break-up. She only started showing up again after we ran into each other and I said we couldn't be friends.

[kuteknish]

could be coincidence.. you really won't know. I'm sure she misses you, but missing and wanting to get back together are two different things.

Just be nonchalant, no pushing at all, and keep moving on...

[chitown9]

But he just doesn't get social clues like taking jackets, or offering a drink or be sympathetic when I tell of my bad day. He also just gets ready to leave the house but won't say where he is going. When I've spoken to him about how it is a common courtesy he just doesn't understand it. Sometimes he will go out to snow shovel and come back in and make not that I didn't come out to help.

 

This part sounds like Asperger's.

[sportyg]

This thread is fascinating.

[lilypadgirl]

Bump! I recently read a book on attachment styles that relates to some of this and is really helpful to me in understanding my ex and myself. I think my ex is a love avoidant person and I'm a love addict/anxious person. He's even said at one point he feels that I give him love but he's unable to completely absorb it or return it because there's a barrier. Sigh. I really thought if I was patient and loving enough...but at some point, I realized it doesn't mean anything if he doesn't know how to value and cherish me and my love. It'll just feel like pressure and burden to him and he'll just form stronger, higher walls and engage in more distancing behavior like withdrawing or avoiding me to keep me out the harder I try. I can't break down his walls for him. He has to want to and do that on his own.

[journeynow]

For some people, relationships signify obligation instead of love.

This sounds familiar. My ex didn't want the "burden" of a relationship, although what's said above about how engulfment began in childhood doesn't fit him at all, or the being caretaker/rescuer. (He did have an extended hospitalization as a toddler, and I wonder if that is somehow connected.)

 

{I wish I could think of another term other than "my ex". He's not "mine", and "ex" is so __________? I suppose that's for another thread, another time...}

[journeynow]

Thanks for reviving the thread, lilypadgirl. What was the book you read called?

[lilypadgirl]

The book is called "Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find and Keep Love" by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. What I really like about this book is that it doesn't make judgements of people like "needy/clingy" or "jerk/*****" which other books do by taking the side of the reader or blaming the reader. The book is simply about using research and case examples to help people understand more about themselves and their partners. The basic premise of the book is that people are either 1) anxious, 2) avoidant, or 3) secure. The key is recognizing which one you and your partner/ex is and promoting better understanding of each others' needs and motivations for intimacy, love, and commitment in a relationship. Though it does focus more on the anxious person because they are more likely to be the readers of books like these.

[journeynow]

The book is called "Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find and Keep Love" by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. What I really like about this book is that it doesn't make judgements of people like "needy/clingy" or "jerk/*****" which other books do by taking the side of the reader or blaming the reader. The book is simply about using research and case examples to help people understand more about themselves and their partners. The basic premise of the book is that people are either 1) anxious, 2) avoidant, or 3) secure. The key is recognizing which one you and your partner/ex is and promoting better understanding of each others' needs and motivations for intimacy, love, and commitment in a relationship. Though it does focus more on the anxious person because they are more likely to be the readers of books like these.

 

Thanks! Nice summary, and it sounds like a helpful book.

[Sim54]

Just remember that if you spent more than about 2 weeks with an avoidant, then you certainly have issues yourself. Avoidant go perfectly with anxious people. Avoidant's don't always run away from genuine love, but they will ALWAYS run away from smothering love, which is what most anxious people have to offer. Anxious people have never learnt about good boundaries, and have never witnessed adult love, and they mistakenly believe that their love is good and wholesome and that the avoidant has all the problems. In fact, just as an avoidant person seeks out someone who will smother them, to reinforce their self belief, so an anxious person will seek out an avoider to reinforce THEIR belief, that they will be left, and can't be loved just as they are, so they cling, smother, over function, and generally do everything in their power to make sure there is no space for the relationship to grow in.

 

If you have ever found yourself in a relationship like this, then it is helpful to understand your partner, but VITAL that you understand yourself. Both Anxious and Avoidant are actually flip sides of the same coin.

 

My last relationship I was the avoider, my ex the anxious. She went on to another guy, who she left after six months because 'he smothered me, and wouldn't give me any space...'

I asked her if she saw the irony in this statement considering how clingy she was with me, and she said yes.

 

I too, as an avoider, have swung the other way, and been a clinger. It is rare that a person is ONLY one way or another, it is a behavioural pattern after all, not a disease.

 

It is natural to focus on the 'other' for a while, and perhaps even healthy straight after a breakup, but eventually, you can only focus on you. You were there, and it is NEVER only the other's fault, you were there, you made choices on being with that person, staying with them, and responding in the way that you did. That is all your responsibility. So, try to avoid the blame game, and seek self knowledge, it will set you free.

 

Peace to us all.

 

S

[lilypadgirl]

Both Anxious and Avoidant are actually flip sides of the same coin.

I too, as an avoider, have swung the other way, and been a clinger. It is rare that a person is ONLY one way or another, it is a behavioural pattern after all, not a disease.

 

So true (and I don't believe it was referred to as a disease). I do have avoidant tendencies with people I don't have interest in in the early stages of dating, though I tend to be the anxious one if I'm in a long term relationship with love. But there is a difference between people who have lost interest and people who desire love but are afraid of losing themselves and people who desire love but are afraid of losing the other person. For me, I read the book from the perspective of long term relationships.

 

But I disagree with your first sentence:

Just remember that if you spent more than about 2 weeks with an avoidant, then you certainly have issues yourself.

 

It's very hard to spot avoidants and anxious people because most of time people are normal and most people are not that extreme. When there are no problems in the relationship, which is usually in the beginning during the sparks phase, both types tend to act more like secures. The difference comes when there are conflicts in the relationship or the relationship has developed long enough that differences, or as I now understand incompatibilies, between commitment/imtimacy needs and expectations of two people show up. That's when the avoidant/anxious/secure traits come out and that's what the core attachment tendencies play the role. It's about how one handles conflict, commitment, and intimacy based on our needs and attachment styles.

 

But I completely agree that it is vital to understand oneself and crucial to that is understanding the dynamics of the relationship and what could have been and couldn't have been fixed. To understand that, you also need to understand your partner. For example, understanding my ex is an avoidant helped me realize why no matter what I did and why when I kept pushing to communicate or telling him I need certain reassurances, he felt more and more pressured and felt the need to withdraw or not be completely forthright with me. Understanding that I am anxious helped me understand why that pushed me to become so insecure and afraid of being abandoned that I became more and more emotional. This resulted in me behaving in more extreme anxious ways and him behaving in more extreme avoidant ways despite the fact that we were both quite secure in the early stages of our relationship and both love each other very much and seem reluctant to let each other go even though we've broken up. (To be fair, this is overly simplified, we did have other issues too and I recognize they play a big role in the outcome as well or may even be symptoms of this core incompatibility.)

 

Sorry for the mini-story. This has been quite cathartic for me!

[Lonewing]

Tis true; an avoidant will make even a Secure shift towards Anxiousness. But a secure can also bring an anxious back up to secure.

 

I think the main point here is, you can build something if both people are committed to it, but it only takes one to ruin it, and the avoidant is the one who refuses to work together on the relationship.

[Sim54]

Tis true; an avoidant will make even a Secure shift towards Anxiousness. But a secure can also bring an anxious back up to secure.

 

I think the main point here is, you can build something if both people are committed to it, but it only takes one to ruin it, and the avoidant is the one who refuses to work together on the relationship.

 

It isn't true. A secure won't stick with an avoidant, in fact, they won't even find them attractive, as the nature of their core attachment style means they will be repulsed by an anxious.

 

And every relationship councillor on the planet agrees, it takes two to wreck a relationship, but one person can turn it around, if they stop their dysfunctional relating style.

 

The Avoidant can't/won't change, due to having shut down their emotional centre in defence against the constant threat of invasion by the Anxious.

The Anxious is unable to change, as they refuse to even except that they are damaging the relationship, refuse to take any responsibility for their behaviour, and instead blame their partner for it all, perpetuating their victim response, and dooming their relationship (see previous post).