Avoidant Love vs. Secure/Anxious Love

[Sim54]

Interesting points. I guess I would agree with what you say about a secure attacher.

It does seem to me that avoidants tend to move in and out of a relationship fairly often, so perhaps every few months or so, they would go cold, and perhaps there would be multiple breakups, rather than just having an ok relationship for 18 months or so and then ending. There is a seemingly observable phenomenon that a large portion of relationships end around the 18 month to 2 year mark. It appears that in those cases (without multiple break ups), what happens is the 'in-love' chemicals tend to burn out around 2 years or so, and if a real solid committed love hasn't developed or been created consciously between the two, then they break up. This may happen irrespective of which style of attachment you are. If someone doesn't feel love anymore, and isn't yet willing to commit, then after the 'fun' is over, they bale. This could really just be emotional immaturity more than anything else.

 

S

[kuteknish]

Attached, the book.

[PyrrhicVictory]

I wanted to bump this great thread. I also want to call out a thread I started that is related to this topic.

[Tired Tiger]

An interesting thread, and something I've had experiences with.

 

Not to aggrivate the codependancy debate, but while there does seem to be a fairly elastic definition even within the psychology community, it's clear that the term does get thrown around clearly out of context in the 'self help' realm. One element that seems to be a required qualifier for the label is the enabling of a harmful/dysfunctional behavior (abuse). Personally, I don't equate being involved with an avoidant as an automatic "codependant" dysfunction. Necessarily.

 

Also of note is that it can be nearly impossible to spot the tendancies of an avoidant, or 'runner', even a year or two into a relationship. They do crave the very thing they run from, and as long as their fear/anxiety level is reasonably low, they'll be fully engaged and seemingly invested in the relationship. When the honeymoon transitions to the power struggle stage (Google "Imago"), this is often when the anxiety kicks in - then watch out when the coping and defense mechanisms take over...

[Sim54]

If you define emotional abuse as the periodic withdrawal and withholding of care and love as a manipulative tactic or even simply a withdrawal without explanation as abusive then being with an avoidant is probably co-dependant. By my simple understanding, a co-dependant has very weak boundaries and a weak sense of themselves, so tending to enmesh with another, and classically someone unable to meet their needs.

 

Avoidants tend to have a weak sense of self as well, which is what sends them running when they feel smothered and they fear the loss of themselves (i'm an avoidant). After a year of analysis I've developed a much stronger sense of myself and am just starting to engage with a new woman. I can see she has co-dependant issues (she spent years with a drug user) but because I'm holding firm and not encroaching or running, then she is able to be more solid. As they say, if one person changes then the other can change too.

[Lonewing]

You've put this down very well - it is indeed true. The only warning you do have though is the past, in which case, logic is a more appropriate masure of a person. As they say, your actions in the past begret your actions in the future, and though it IS possible for a person to change for the long term, it's extremely rare to find this example. there are some peope hwo get really upset by this 'judgement,' as they pine for us to only judge them by who they are and what they do now, not by who they have been and what they have already done. This 'judgement,' though, is vital for many of us to avoid the pitfalls that comes with people who are in some cases simply very dangerous - in some events, emotional, others, psychological, and some, even physical.

[Sim54]

I guess we should warn women away from you then, seeing as you've failed to have any lasting relationships up till now, and by your own definition are doomed to repeat this forever.

 

Get off your high horse.

You'd do far better tending to your own glaring faults then going on about apparently dangerous people who keep ruining your life (hint: only you can ruin your life, no one else has that power unless you give it to them so it's still your fault).

[Lonewing]

That would be a very Avoidant point of view to hold - the idea that there is no one in the universe but yourself. The reality is, you're only partially involved in what impacts you in this universe - part of it you do indeed control, but the rest is out of your hands. Part of the power of relationships is indeed giving another person power over your life, but in a healthy relationship that power is reciprocated equally over each other while the entire exchange is entirely voluntary.

 

And I'm doing a very good job keeping the list short. At my age, the dating pool is mostly avoidants, people who appear real up until the moment they break, so it's rather good to approach them with caution. What past I do have shows that I am a dedicated devoted partner, so I'm quite OK at this point biding my time.

[Blue4now]

My experience to a tee. Couldn't have said it better myself, Lonewing. For me, it is the first (And I endeavor for it to be my last!) rel. with one of these people. You give SO much, trying to get it back to where it was, or at least define what IS, all to no avail. Once they know they've hooked you, they trot out the distancing, avoidant behavior. Then, you realize YOU'RE the one doing all the work. When you call them on it, or try to leave (as I did so many times), they clean up their act again for awhile.....just like playing a marlin.....reel you in, play out the line (distance, which is their comfort zone)...reel you in again, when you start making noises.....on and on. All the while, you're working SO hard to figure it all out. A real serious mindf***, allright. When ever I'd chime in about my dissatisfactions or questions, he'd do everything I asked/expected for a normal relationship...like performing a to-do list. On the outside, it looked good. The problem was....I didn't FEEL him in the rel. Looking back, it's like I was in a relationship with a robot I'd programmed. Albeit a sweet, wonderful robot, who I love dearly.

[Sim54]

Whilst you're all blaming the world and everyone else for your problems, rather than seeing that you are the architects of your own life, and ultimately responsible for how you manage your feelings, and how you react to the world, i wonder if any of you have any idea what a hell hole it is to suffer avoidant attachment.

 

I can't say for sure that I am an avoidant. I've been avoidant in some relationships, and anxiously attached to an avoidant in another.

 

What ever you do, don't for one minute think that it's a picnic. I crave closeness, but walk a knifes edge of trying to get close but also keep myself safe from being smothered and controlled. My last girl friend filled the room with her needs and her emotions leaving me absolutely NO room to feel mine. And accused me of everything under the sun.

She gave and gave and gave, and totally wiped herself out of the relationship, didn't set any boundaries, and pretty much made herself totally invisible, and then accused me of making her feel invisible.

 

Any time you accuse someone else of 'making' you feel a certain way, then you know you are in codependant behaviour mode.

 

It's never all about just one person. There are always two dysfunctional people in a dysfunctional relationship.

It's that simple.

[Sim54]

Part of the power of relationships is indeed giving another person power over your life, but in a healthy relationship that power is reciprocated equally over each other while the entire exchange is entirely voluntary.

 

Absolute poppycock. You should never give someone else power over your life, not unless you want to end up being used, as you seem to feel you have been.

A relationship is about two separate individuals choosing to share their lives for mutual growth and support. There is, and shouldn't be any talk of power over one another.

[Tired Tiger]

Hey Blue - I can relate to much of what you describe, but for this...

 

Once they know they've hooked you, they trot out the distancing, avoidant behavior.

 

While it certainly could feel that way on the receiving end, I don't think it's a conscious or premeditated behavior. In fact, I don't think it necessarily has anything at all to do with the knowledge that they have you "hooked", but more the fear that they, themselves, are becoming hooked.

 

Whilst you're all blaming the world and everyone else for your problems, rather than seeing that you are the architects of your own life, and ultimately responsible for how you manage your feelings, and how you react to the world, i wonder if any of you have any idea what a hell hole it is to suffer avoidant attachment.

 

Hey Simbad - Maybe it's because I've made significant effort to practice understanding and compassion that I've recognized the extreme level of conflict and turmoil that my 'avoidant' must be experiencing... to deeply crave the very thing that triggers such significant emotional terror. Understanding that isn't about blame, it's actually helped me to accept my role in a clearer way - and without beating myself up over so many of the projections that have been tossed my way through the course of this roller coaster.

 

That said, I know I still have work to do on myself in regards to boundaries. I've allowed this cycle to repeat enough times to feel like the proverbial 'doormat' - a role I'm certainly not used to historically. It's a challenge, to be sure, as she's absolutely intoxicating to me when she's on the "up" side of the cycle.

[Blue4now]

Hey Blue - I can relate to much of what you describe, but for this...

 

 

 

While it certainly could feel that way on the receiving end, I don't think it's a conscious or premeditated behavior. In fact, I don't think it necessarily has anything at all to do with the knowledge that they have you "hooked", but more the fear that they, themselves, are becoming hooked.

 

Part of the conflict for me was struggling with one part of me believing my ex when he would say he is trying, working on his issues, etc., then another part of me suspecting it was a selfish act on his part (intentional). I always wanted to believe he was the man I thought he was, but it was challenging at times. The "walling off" of emotions by someone you love has the effect of an act of cruelty being perpetrated on you.

 

 

 

Hey Simbad - Maybe it's because I've made significant effort to practice understanding and compassion that I've recognized the extreme level of conflict and turmoil that my 'avoidant' must be experiencing... to deeply crave the very thing that triggers such significant emotional terror. Understanding that isn't about blame, it's actually helped me to accept my role in a clearer way - and without beating myself up over so many of the projections that have been tossed my way through the course of this roller coaster. QUOTE]

[Blue4now]

I started reading the book at the bookstore yesterday.. interesting stuff...

It's sad, really... Avoidants won't get into relationships with avoidants because then neither of them hold the cards or have the full power, but avoidants and anxious or even avoidants and secures will never fully be happy... being an avoidant is a sad place to be... Even sadder is that they won't realize that what they do or don't do is based out of their unconscious fears, so unless someone very close to them tells them they need to seek therapy or change their ways, otherwise they will end up alone, they won't...

 

In my case, I went to a counselor on 4 occasions to try to understand what I was dealing with. It was/is really messing me up. I asked him to go, and he said he didn't need counseling. Either denial, or not sincere about "trying", was how I see it.

[Blue4now]

It shouldn't surprise me that this link would pop up. When the strange behavior started with ,my ex (avoidant) a couple of months in, I did some googling and wound up here too. I even bought the ebook. I did SO much research regarding EUs long before I sought counseling. Though the material helped me considerably in understanding this "phenomenon", it didn't really provide any tools to help deal with it or overcome it. The advice is pretty much....."Don't walk away...RUN!". Wish I had listened. And, yes, Simbad, I take responsibility for not getting the hell outta there. I had never in my life experienced anything like this before, so was completely "hoodwinked" by my ex.

[Blue4now]

Simbad, after reading many of your posts on this thread (I've highlighted just a few in this one post), I am really put off by your badgering of other posters. You come accross like some self-styled authority on relationships. You argue semantics. You know what? Sometimes it IS the other person's fault. Sometimes it isn't. Anyway, we posters are describing events that are uniquely personal to OUR relationships, so I wish you'd withhold your judgement and authoritarianism. I have gleaned alot of important info from your posts (food for thought, and to be taken with a grain of salt), but the tone you use with anyone who disagrees with you (or vice versa)....really is not productive. No one is addressing YOU on here when they speak of their ex's, so you don't need to be so defensive. Sorry for being so blunt, but my goodness, brow-beating people who are in emotional pain or trying to heal is very negative, IMO. I wouldn't want to speak for other posters, but I am here for empathy, validation, information, successful healing stories, etc. Please, can you try to make your responses a little more positive? Or not. Your choice, of course.

[Blue4now]

Wow, Runaway! Well stated! This was my first (hopefully last!) run-in with an avoidant. I have always been a very secure person, which is why the experience has been so profound on me. Totally freaked me out. I am pi**ed off, but trying to keep some perspective by (trying) believing that my ex was not perpetrating that cruelty on me knowingly and intentionally. I'm having a hard time with the "knowingly" part, though. He told me about his experiences with his two ex wives. When describing situations with them, things they said to him, etc., I was always amazed...thinking, "don't you see that you're doing that with me too?". Eventually, I would tell him this. Didn't phaze him. He liked to say that they were the same to him, but I believe that they eventually distanced themselves from him emotionally out of sheer survival. I had to do that as well. I couldn't be myself anymore. Holding back my emotions to try to match up with his. It was awful. Felt like I was half-starved, because I was being so careful NOT to smother him with an otherwise normal amount of affection, etc. And all these intimacy issues were not revealed until I stated that I loved him. Hmmm.

[Sim54]

Blue4now, I'm angry because the basic tenet of this thread is that most of the posters here are victims of someone else and there is a lot of self pitying and blaming of others going on, a lot of whining and finger pointing, and it's all coming from just one book that was written. In answer to your question, I'm not a psychologist, but have spent many years reading many books on behaviour and the origins of neurotic behaviour, as well as working hard in therapy to heal my own issues.

 

The fact is that avoidants and anxious people actually sit very closely together and are more similar than different, which is something that seems to be missed here, as noted in the title of the thread putting anxious with secure.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter too much what others do, but instead matters what WE do in response. It is often that the case that someone who seems to be avoidant, is simply reacting to the clinging of their partner, and vice versa, and when the avoidant goes off to anther partner, they don't run away, but are able to commit. That was me, avoidant with a clingy person, not so with someone secure.

 

I just want a more balance view rather than the blame and victim pity party game that goes on here.

 

i'm sorry if I come accross heavy handed, but some of the posters here are positively dangerous with the misinformation they are posting. It's one thing to seek validation and sympathy. it's another thing to be fed down right lies about people.

 

One poster even goes so far as to use abusive language to describe people who have been victims themselves of childhood abuse. Ass clowns, I believe he called them. Pretty childish stuff IMO.

 

The bottom line is that it is pretty standard in the therapeutic community to state that two people in a relationship tend to be of roughly the same level of emotional maturity, so if you find someone who is immature, then it probably reflects something back to you. If you spend two years in a dysfunctional relationship, then you are both dysfunctional, not just one. And if it starts out that one person is to blame, then it doesn't take long for you both to be to blame, as you bounce back and forth off each other. Saying 'he/she started it' is just childish and counter productive and doesn't allow much for a solution.

 

If one person behaves badly and then the other joins in, then you have two people behaving badly, don't you? A healthy person simply says no thanks and walks away.

[Blue4now]

 

One poster even goes so far as to use abusive language to describe people who have been victims themselves of childhood abuse. Ass clowns, I believe he called them. Pretty childish stuff IMO.

 

Hey Simbad, I think I know where that poster got that term, "Assclown". It's use is peppered throughout a website ([link removed[/url]) dedicated to the subject of emotional unavailability. I perused that site heavily during my relationship, as much of the material there described my situation pretty accurately in some respects. It was an eye-opener, and provided me with alot of insight into that phenomenon that I had no prior knowledge or experience in dealing with.

[Tired Tiger]

I didn't find that referenced website very helpful, to be honest. It's entirely from a female perspective, and while there's a few good points here and there, there's also quite the jaded edge. I mean... "assclown"? Seriously.

 

Simbad - If you don't mind my asking, what would you consider the catalyst for recognizing your avoidant relationship behaviors? Was it the retrospect from a failed relationship, or something else?

[90_hour_sleep]

wow...what a thread. simbad...lonewing...kudos for keeping the discussion alive!!

 

i'm wondering what the use of being labelled is if all it does is polaraize us against each other. does that aid in building stronger relationships in the future? or does it just contribute to jaded feelings of separateness?

 

i agree that if i'm not getting what i need out of a relationship...at least part of that experience comes down to my own inability to express my needs effectively to my partner. if I am not getting what I need...guess what...it's up to me to effectively initiate the steps to get there. obviously...this also involves having a partner who is at the very least open to exploring and learning with me. this means being in the same ballpark in terms of emotional maturity. and it's very much a two way street.

 

i'm all for becoming informed...learning the ways in which others tick. if anything...it can help to bridge the gaps on an intellectual level. perhaps it provides additional potential for understanding. where i see a potential problem is when there's a move from simple acknowledgement and awareness to a subversion of accountability. if my focus becomes on the other...i've actively taken a step to avoid looking at my own business. i see this as an unfortunate side-effect to becoming informed. it can often lead to arrogance. where the idea is to promote awareness...and add some tools to the relationship toolbox...what's happened instead is that i've become polarized to the opposing view, and have limited my ability to understand it. this will be detrimental to my ability to relate to future partners.

 

the onus should always be on me in terms of faults. it is well within my power to focus on my own awareness...my own reactivity...and to actively investigate where i go astray. if i can discover where i run into problems...and come to an understanding of that...i will be better able to relay that to my partner. i'm of the opinion that any desire to 'fix' my partner is inherently flawed. regardless of whether i'm the avoider, or the clinger...any attempt to 'fix' will be met with resistance. the idea as i see it is to learn how i tick...and work towards helping my partner to understand that. understanding promotes the bond. it doesn't matter if i'm a classic avoider and my partner is a classic clinger...the idea for both of us is to work towards helping the other understand. as i see it...it's generally the unconscious assumptions i make about my partner that lead to my insecurities. understanding helps to make the assumptions conscious...and to eventually work through them.

 

as i see it, blame has no place in any relationship. it is utterly useless. accountability is fantastic...but only as a means to build awareness. from that point...i see it as best to put the finger pointing aside and focus on more important things. if my focus is on blaming my partner, i'd be inclined to believe that my own emotional maturity is questionable. if i can't look to myself...how can i possibly relate to my partner on her terms? i see myself in my partner. i see that we are both subject to our fears and insecurities. perhaps these qualities manifest in different ways...but we're both coming from the same place. we are both seeking to feel safe within our partnership. i understand that she will feel threatened in much the same ways that i feel threatened...and she will react accordingly. her behaviour makes sense...and it is my responsibility to remain open to understanding that...as it is my responsibility to be active in helping her to understand the same in me.

 

i feel that awareness achieved through aggression towards others is achieved IN SPITE of that aggression. put your hostility towards others away and look at how you can actively contribute to healthy behaviours in your relationships.

 

my two cents.

[Blue4now]

I didn't find that referenced website very helpful, to be honest. It's entirely from a female perspective, and while there's a few good points here and there, there's also quite the jaded edge. I mean... "assclown"? Seriously.

 

I do agree with you Tiger. It is very biased, but I sifted through the bashing, and did manage to glean alot of insight that pertained to my situation. I actually feel alot of sympathy for my ex. I wouldn't consider him an "assclown". I think it is a sad thing for someone to not be able to fully experience love and intimacy, and everything that has to offer, whatever the reasons.

[Blue4now]

i agree that if i'm not getting what i need out of a relationship...at least part of that experience comes down to my own inability to express my needs effectively to my partner. if I am not getting what I need...guess what...it's up to me to effectively initiate the steps to get there. obviously...this also involves having a partner who is at the very least open to exploring and learning with me. this means being in the same ballpark in terms of emotional maturity. and it's very much a two way street.

.

 

This is where I was beating my head against the wall. I just could not find an effective way of communicating my needs in a way that produced results. I was always careful in trying to achieve compromise, too. I would ask him what specifically his comfort level was, etc. Unfortunately for me, he was just plain uncomfortable even talking about emotions. Sigh.

[mad rabbits]

I'm not so sure how useful or accurate it is to characterise avoidants as an unchanging "clump" of the population. Ie they are what they are and they will never change.

 

I think I have strongly avoidant tendencies... that being said I wasn't always this way. I got this way after being drained by investing too much in go nowhere relationships that gave no return - and yes some of this started in my childhood (alcoholic mother, drug addict father). In my 20s I was more the anxious type.

 

Also, different people can trigger different responses in me. Put me together with another avoidant, I'm more likey to act the part of the anxious type. Put me with an anxious type and that will magnify my avoidant traits.

 

I wonder if it isn't more accurate to think of avoidants as a pool of people that isn't static but changes over time? People join the pool at certain times, other leave the pool...

 

No offence Lonewig but you do seem to be demonizing avoidants because of what went down in your relationship. I know everyone is claiming that an avoidant is just what they are and will damage you no matter what so "don't play" - but what if there is some truth to their defence of their position, that really they just didn't love you enough (but might be able to love someone else)? Its a hard pill to swallow so I can see why there is more appeal in casting labels.

 

Somebody mentioned that both attachment styles originate from the same trauma - I think that's an important point

[Sim54]

Aaah! Finally some measured discussion!

 

Tired Tiger, I finally got down to healing myself after the loss of my last girl. i had been abandoned by a girl previously, who was my first real love in a long time, and just as I fell deeply in love, she disappeared and wouldn't speak to me. I had a nervous breakdown, lost my job, and was forced to leave France where i was living and return home. I met my ex about 4 months after I got back, and she took on the role of 'saving' me, which I allowed but which ultimately created a very unhealthy relationship. We went through and abortion together and finally split after 15 months by my hand, but as we separated I suddenly saw what i'd done, and was mortified. She is a very messy hearted girl, but truly lovely, and had tried very hard to love me, and i'd just pushed her away. I finally saw that I had broken my OWN heart and that was it. i swore to get to the bottom of this and make sure I never treated her nor myself like that ever again.

 

Interestingly, it wasn't until i was forced to FEEL the pain of loss of her, and my own heartbreak that I snapped out of it. We can feel guilty for hurting others, but if we get away with it, we simply move on. It's only when the consequences of you actions hit home and you FEEL the pain of it that you can change.

 

The best thing my ex did for me was refuse to take me back, and so make me feel her loss. She had spent the whole RS saying yes to me, and NEVER saying no. It was one of the reasons we failed. 'No' is a very important word. She let me get away with it, thinking that was a loving thing to do, but saying no to someone is often the most loving thing to do, as it gives them a chance to feel what they are doing.

 

The last 11 months of therapy and heartbreak have been torturous, but I'm finally coming out of it. I saw my ex this week for the first time in 7 months. It was sweet between us. A hug and a kiss, and certainly we will stay in touch over the years. There is potential friendship there down the line. She is very happy with her new boyfriend and has moved on, and so am I.

 

All in all, a massive learning experience. You can read more here if you like. It's only 4 pages long.