Avoidant Love vs. Secure/Anxious Love

[GreenPolicy]

Maybe, just maybe, they fell out of love because of you, and your behaviour?

Did that ever enter your hear?

Maybe you misrepresented yourself as well, as most people hide who they are in the beginning, and when the truth came out they ran?

Did that ever occur to you?

Or do you think you're perfect?

 

 

I can't speak for the other poster, but just comparing my ex to my ex-ex: My ex-ex was always very quick to pipe up if I crossed her boundaries or did things she didn't like. My ex, on the other hand, gave me nothing but positive feedback. We never really argued. Minor disagreements seemed like ordinary relationship issues. I have to take responsibility for my actions in the relationship, but it's hard to see how I could have avoided my fate. I mean, five days before she dumps me she's telling me what kind of engagement ring she wants me to get. Why would I have altered my behavior when she responded positively to it?

[Lonewing]

That was the first thing to enter my head - it was my actions. It's always the first thing I look at, at least. But in this case, there was no such explination. I was not someone I was not when I was with her; I gave her a fair, accurate representation. I suppose you are unused to practicing such honesty in the early phases of a relatiosnhip, hence your suggestion that relationships start out on pilars of lies. I do not follow the "pillars of lies" philosophy; if I am not good enough as my honest self, I want nothing to do with the person. Anyhow, my actions where the very actions she returned to me, the actions she said she wanted, and then Poof, she did a compelte character flop. The change was entirely internal to her, as clear as night to day.

 

The reason her relationships fail really IS because of her. she may indeed have been badly mistreated at one point in her life, but at this point she's in her early 30s where she has the choice to either get herself the therapy she needs so she stops engaging in this pattern of destructive behavior, which in this case would be the responsible mature thing to do, or she will keep running from this problem - which is what an emotionally unavailable a--clown does. You're right - she IS immature. But I figured this out by the second year for myself.

 

The commitment to these people is difficult. In the early stages, they appear to give it back in equal amounts. Hence, why it is so easy to give them commitment. Mind you, in the case of a secure person, if you were to give them the same commitment they would do the same. The difference is, after 3 or 4 months secure people still return it just as they always have, hence why in a couple ore months they're married and they stay married. They don't suddenly start breaking away and making it harder and harder to sustain the relaitonship - aka sabatoge with the intent to get the other partner to end it. Why do we stay with them even at this point? On one hand, we're still in shock over their new behavior. On the other, we're making that adjsutment ourselves to prepare for that end. And on the third hand, we're the people who do not believe in giving up on the ones we love - we're not going to suddenly bolt just because our partner is being irrational out of the blue. Particulary if the other person acknowledges their faults and is working on overcoming them. We of course learn by the second or thrid relapse just how hopeless the case is, and yes, we eventually get out of these relationships - be it them, us, or both who finally push the whole thing over the edge. It's a great learning experience to say the least, and if anything, it teaches us why we need to be avoidant of the avoidants - and provides us with the signs of how to spot one a mile away before it ever gets a chance to tease us.

 

You might find this hard to believe because you find such commitment in the current dating pool to be so increasingly rare, but this is for good reason; as time progresses, the dating pool is more heavily weighted towards avoidants. Secures get married and stay married; anxious get married and also stay married. Avoidants don't. It's one reason why it becomes so much harder to find a good partner the older you are in the dating pool. But I've known this for some time now.

[fwdthinker]

This has been a thought provoking thread on both sides. All I know is... Being in that r/s turned out to be incredibly painful. Ending it has been hell (cold turkey). Working on myself has been healing... And as for the avoid ant ex... He'll be like that forever. Because regardless if he was hurt as a child... He has chosen to deal with that by choosing to hurt the ones who love him back.. Every single time. And then dump the person (that would be me and exes and even wife past) to the curb. It's telling.. I used a very similar car analogy myself when explaining my frustration with all his words of love......yet having this sick sense that it was a fake.. one minute he may mean those words...the next... They just didn't ring true. And the actions were just enough to keep you off balance. Then it does become a coda relationship. Its about them being in control not love anymore if it ever was. It is a total mind f. And healing from it is taking forever! And he? I'm sure he is skipping along whistling a happy tune.. Not a care in the world. That's how they roll.

[GreenPolicy]

Do these people ever change? My ex is 31 and not seeking therapy as far as I know. Would her patterns be so ingrained at this point that she is likely to never change without professional help? It's been almost 5 months since the b/u and I am tired of obsessing over her and the whole situation and need to turn the focus to myself and healing. So I just imagine that she is already married with kids and unavailable and there will be no reconciliation...even though my brain knows that reconciliation would just be a replay of the relationship and its painful ending without a sea change in her emotional wellbeing.

 

I am in strict NC and do not seek out info about her online or through family/friends. But I am curious if these people ever get married or develop healthy relationship habits. Our relationship was great until she pulled the plug out of the blue. I look at it as a beautiful house that was built on a foundation of sand.

[Lonewing]

My ex is 33 going on 34 this year...I saw her a month ago, and no, she's not changed one bit. The guys may change, but she, never. She'll get a new place or a new crowd when this one wears out. She's done it her whole life - why would she do anything differently? Marriage and kids didn't change her either - she had that twice before me - she's had some of the best in her life all along.

 

You want to believe in the power of optimism, in the beauty of the idealists, and then reality comes along and reminds you just how it really is.

 

Yes, it was very foolish that I ever thought for a chance that I could be with her on the long term. But hey, as they all say, believing in the power of a clean slate and starting anew...except, her slate will never be clean!!!

 

Another way to look at it, is a house with a half a crummy foundation - you keep rebuilding her broken half, and each morning you wake up to find it broken anew. You overbuild your side to accommodate her weak side, and even that does no good - The house of Usher still falls.

 

You're doing the smart move - be strong, you will recover and find someone better. I'm really sorry things turned out like they did - but there's nothing you did or could have done to make things different.

[Sim54]

The reason her relationships fail really IS because of her.

 

I never said it wasn't her that messed up her relationship. I just said that it wasn't her that messed up YOUR relationship. To re state, there are TWO relationships between two people, hers and yours. She messed up hers, you messed up yours.

 

she may indeed have been badly mistreated at one point in her life, but at this point she's in her early 30s where she has the choice to either get herself the therapy she needs so she stops engaging in this pattern of destructive behavior, which in this case would be the responsible mature thing to do, or she will keep running from this problem - which is what an emotionally unavailable a--clown does.

 

Totally agree with this. But two things are glaringly obvious about YOU. One, it took you TWO years to become aware that she is immature. Such total lack of awareness on your part demonstrates your equal level of immaturity. Once YOU become emotionally mature, it won't take so long for you to notice the other person. And your continued use of abusive language regarding another human being demonstrates quite clearly that you have suppressed anger, a very normal trait for anxiously attached Nice Guys who like to believe that they are all loving and all kind, all of the time.

 

But here's the real kicker:

you keep rebuilding her broken half, and each morning you wake up to find it broken anew.

 

Er, why the hell are you building HER half? That is a TOTAL invasion of her boundaries, and she will experience it as that, and she would back away. Avoidants have had their boundaries repeatedly violated as children, and find the invasive behaviour of a codependent and anxious partner intolerable. You are responsible for YOURSELF only, as I keep saying, and it was up to her to deal with her side. Did you ever actually talk about this with her?

 

Ok, a little bit about me, seeing as you've opened up about your relationship.

 

As per your definitions, there is in fact another, which is anxious/avoidant. I would fall in that catagory. I tend to find partners who are similar to me, or either avoidant, or anxious. With an avoidant, i am anxious, and pursue them, and cling, driving them away, or I back away from an anxious codependent, like my recent ex. It is this most recent breakup that has forced me to take action. I was devastated to lose her, and now I have committed myself to healing. I've been in analysis for 10 months, and have come a long way in healing my childhood wound. I'm still not yet ready for a full relationship, but am taking baby steps with a girl, learning to open up, and commit to being present with her. My ex, who you no doubt would sympathise with, as hopped from one avoidant to another, for YEARS, always blaming them, and seemingly unable to see that her own issues and behaviour are the cause of her misery. She has dived into another relationship super fast, and off she goes, blissfully unaware.

 

Ultimately, it takes two to mess up a relationship.

 

Secures get married and stay married; anxious get married and also stay married. Avoidants don't. It's one reason why it becomes so much harder to find a good partner the older you are in the dating pool. But I've known this for some time now.

 

I LOVE these blanket statements! So, you're an avoidant then? Seeing as you're not married and in your 30's then you must be right? Firstly, as far as I can see, most anxious people aren't married, as no-one can stand to be with them for long. Avoidants run from them, and secures can't tolerate them, and other anxious people can't even see them. My mid thirties female friends are almost ALL anxious, jumping from one unsuitable guy to the next, unable to see that they need to heal them selves to attract a different sort of guy.

 

The bottom line is this. It really doesn't matter what other people do, only what YOU do. Your ex came into your life to teach you something, and you invited her in to learn. Stop bit**ing about it, and take responsibility for your decisions and your life. People come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime. It doesn't mean your relationship was a failure because it didn't follow your private script. You will know next time what to look out for. And as for your ex, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what she did, or does. It's none of your business. It's her life she's messing up, so quite whining about it, and get on with YOUR life.

 

And STOP blaming other people for your pain, misery, and hurt. No one can hurt you without your express permission do so.

[Lonewing]

sinbad, your lecturing really isn't welcome. I already got that. You seem to hold a lot of anger towards this theory yourself. The point of sharing my experience is not to complain about her, but to serve as an aid to those who are currently in the wake of such relationships themselves - and to help them as people before helped me.

 

I suppose you do not have so much patience with you fellow human being. I learned it twice - once from my mother, and once through my education within the sciences. I am shy to make rash judgements with little certainty. Yes, it took my two years to fully comprehend her immaturity. But this is because she did not show her entire self in once instance. And whereas you might not have that patience any longer, I got the full spectrum of her personality - the ups and the downs. It was 30 months in all - and even in the last couple months we were still close. I'm quite happy it ended, mind you - and the way that it did - because it really helped me in moving on. Why on earth would I build on her side? Because in a relationship, there isn't a side - we build it together. Only in our case, she was the sabatouer and I was the architect. She'd find the flaws and i'd re-engineer a new solution. Yeah, I know, it didn't get me a differnet outcome, but that's how things go.

 

My absence from dating in my early twenties was been simple - I wasn't yet ready for such a step, being as how I was not yet stable in my life hence I had little to share with a prospective partner. I don't know if that makes any sense nowadays, but in some sense, I'm quite traditional. And then I wasn't about to go about pursuing relationships when my own future is without finite promise. Being without the means to present myself, it was not in my cards to be looking, either. Short term flings were never a lure. I waited until I finished college before I even started thinking very seriously about the whole thing - and then that's when she came along.

 

Living through her was the greatest joy but also the greatest misery that I have ever lived through. We talked about it alot. Her attitude towards the relationship waffled depending on the phase of the moon, ahem, her cycle. She'd be hot for a couple months, then lukewarm for a week. We'd survive this lukewarm and go back into hot for a couple months, before going cold altogether, crashing, rebuilding, and rekindling altogether. It took me a while to recognize the futility of the cycle - and to this day, she is still quite good at the game. Talk about seeing the Whole picture...

 

I'm now in one of the best points of my life, on all fronts. Dating these last few months has been unfruitful thus far, but it's getting better. The second date could turn into a third, though that's really up to us at this point. In this case, I feel we're mismatched - it happens alot. "Curse of the Single's Table" was a REALLY good reading onthe subject. Moral of that story, is it takes much patience and persistance and a bit of luck to find that one perosn in this modern era of ours.

[kuteknish]

I think when we go through a break up, it is important to learn from it.. and grow from it.

This information is just another tool in your tool belt to make sure that you are aware that there, in fact are different styles of attachment and some relationships may be more challenging to keep in balance than others.

 

For me, these studies have intrigued me dramatically and when I've discussed it with my therapist, he fully backs this theory on attachment, and we've been learning about my style of attachment and how I can move more from Anxious to secure. I'm finding it valuable. We are figuring out my triggers. The major things that trigger me to feel anxious and nervous about my relationships IS in fact that I have a history of dating avoidants. Of course, as simbad argues, I bring my own S**t to a relationship and have to be accountable for my own actions: true, however, avoidants bring their own too and when an anxious is trying to make a relationship with an avoidant more balanced, the avoidant unconsciously feels the need to move further away.. continuing to move the relationship into imbalance.

 

I understand my ex and myself a lot better now because of this article. We are all responsible for ourselves in relationships, but it's a two way street, and you can't have a good relationship with someone without them helping you along the way... avoidants have major difficulty with this... rambling now... just some 2cents for my morning.

[Sim54]

Interesting points. Although it's important to remember that BOTH anxious and avoidants have major difficulty with relationships. Only secure people are able to do it easily.

 

when an anxious is trying to make a relationship with an avoidant more balanced, the avoidant unconsciously feels the need to move further away.. continuing to move the relationship into imbalance.

 

This is an interesting point. The thing is, the avoidant isn't taking the relationship to imbalance from their point of view. They are trying to keep it balanced and so protect themselves from the perceived dangers of too much intimacy. It only appears to be imbalance from the anxious persons perspective. Ultimately, both anxious and avoidant people are suffering from the same problem, but avoidants have an extra dimension. Anxious people didn't receive enough safe dependent attachment as an infant and so are constantly trying to create a secure attachment that won't leave them exposed to abandonment. They find separation of any kind often intolerable and so tend to smother their partners. Avoidants ALSO want and need a safe and secure attachment like the one they lacked as a child but with the added fear of being engulfed or smothered. It appears that an anxious person is 'better' as they seem to want to create a secure relationship, but it is often fear based, not love based, and doesn't allow for much space. On the other hand, because avoidants come in close (for the security they need), then back off (when they feel smothered), they appear to be the one messing it all up, with their 'nasty behaviour'. If one can see that both types of people are afraid and both have different needs, then one can move to better understanding and possible resolution of conflict.

Blaming people doesn't help, and doesn't create a solution. Neither is to blame, they are just doing what they can to stay safe.

 

There is another element here. Both avoidant and anxious people tend to have low self esteem and 'hate' themselves. There fore whoever seems to 'love' the most, often gets rejected because the recipient of that love doesn't believe they are loveable and rejects the lover. Often it is the anxious one who 'loves' the most, and is often the anxious one who get's rejected.

 

Ultimately, my gripe with this thread is it fosters an attitude of blame rather than understanding. Calling someone an A**clown because they are terrified of intimacy only tells me alot about lonewing, and not much about his ex. And as you say kuteknish, ultimately, the responsibility for our lives rest squarely on our own shoulders.

 

when an anxious is trying to make a relationship with an avoidant more balanced, the avoidant unconsciously feels the need to move further away.. continuing to move the relationship into imbalance.

 

Ultimately, both partners need to be totally aware of their own dysfunctional behaviour and so willing to engage in some kind of reparative work to move past their reactive behaviour. Very tough to do, and you'd need to be with an avoidant who says "yes, I am an avoidant and I want to change and accept responsibility for my pattern, and for causing the hurt that I have.' If you find one like that, then you have a chance. If your partner, either anxious or avoidant refuses to see that they are damaging the relationship, then it's best to leave as it's going to be a headache if only one of you is trying.

 

Peace.

[Lonewing]

The term "emotionally unavailable A**clown" is simply put, a phrase used by more than one source to describe avoidants. It's not my invention, but if you use this phrase through google, you will find a large volume of resources that discuss the subject. Definition number 17 in the Urban dicitonary nails it:

 

17. a**clown: A person (typically male) who refuses to engage in normal romantic relationships. They are sometimes referred to as "emotionally unavailable" and tend to lie, cheat and manipulate women until the woman is whipped into a state of complete confusion and suicidal tendencies. Often times the unsuspecting female is initially lured by very romantic, passionate, hot behavior only to be met with ice once she starts to expect some of the lies the assclown has dished out.

 

And here's one link, for example, with a list of "things EUAs reject." link removed

 

Is this making sense now? The anti-EUA community doesn't use the A/A/S styles definitions, but it's another face of the same discussion - another side of the same elephant. It may seem like a lot of anger is being directed at these people through this term, and through this theory, but understanding how humans react to situations, and understanding how upset people get when they feel they have been tricked or fooled, this reaction does not surprise me.

 

As kuteknish so very well stated, a relationship is a two way street. A relationship with an avoidant is a one way exit ending in a bottomless hole, into which you can throw the kitchen sink and still get a net return of nothing. Pulling away is not restoring balance - unless you consider balance being alone, individual and independent. Which is the opposite goal of a relationship - the goal is to be with someone else, to live life in tandem; together we are stronger than we ever are alone.

 

Another way to describe this balance/imbalance in terms of two way streets it to imagine a pothole in the one way street. You fix it. The avoidant makes a new one. You fix that one too. The avoidant moves to a new street. You improve that street to the point of completion, and the avoidant decides that street isn't good enough either. In short, it's always giving and no return with these people. A relationship works because both partners reciprocate each other - and not by never giving to each other, or very rarely giving to one another, but by giving to each other freely and often. An avoidant recieves, and then when faced with the reality of returning anything of long term value [such as commitment, for example], disappears.

 

Anxious are scared of losing their relationships; Avoidants are scared of getting stuck in relationships. That's the main difference right there, no need to bring in differences developed from the infant stage forward. Yes, Self esteem does appear to be an issue prevelant within avoidants - they don't feel they're good enough, or they feel like their attempts will never be good enough, so they don't even try in the first place - it's self-defeatism at it's finest. Given which side runs with no clear reasons whatsoever, I think it should be clear why that side gets such a bad rap.

 

You cannot improve a relationship where the other person is absent, distant, or always sleepwalking back to their closedoff position every night. You CAN improve a relationship with someone who is always close; the anxious are more readily available to developing a sphere of independence once their relationship needs are met, independence which gives their partner necessary space. It's impossible to develop this closeness with an avoidant - hence why it's always distance between you and one of them. There may be times you can't count on an anxious not being there for you, but you can always count on them coming home - you know in their heart they are always there for you. The avoidant...well, you know they are there for themselves, first and foremost, and any time things become "I don't like this, I'm uncomfortable with this, this is beyond my comfort zone,I'm not worth this level of commitment, I can't give you this kind of love back," they disappear. And this happens alot.

 

As I stated before, it is for this reason why there are more avoidants in the dating pool the older one gets. Its a very simple thought experiement, to be honest. The Secures stay in their relaiionships. The Anxious also stay in their relaitonships - yes, they have issues, but they are able to work on their issues due to their commitment to their partner and to the relationship. A relationship with an anxious may be dysfunctional [malcolm in the middle, anyone?], but the relationship with the avoidant is simply non-existant. Avoidants deal with relationship problems by running - although it usually isn't a problem for anyone but the avoidant.

 

My experience with the repentful avoidant is that regardless of what they may say, they relapse and often. You're looking at a relationship which will be a couple months long, on average. You might get over the hump at the end of this period, but there will be a next point where things will relapse. It's akin to Sisyphus rolling a rock up a hill.

[Sim54]

You simply don't understand attachment theory at all.

Anxious people are only there for themselves too, that is the nature of their anxiety.

You are a teflon man.

Nothing will stick to you.

No hint of blame.

No possible idea that you are messing it up.

All you can do is point the finger somewhere else, anywhere else as long as not on you.

There is EVERY need to bring in the infant causes of this. Without knowledge and understanding of why things happen you are simply at sea.

 

Oh and I also said that a relationship is a two way street.

You're the one who seems to think you are perfect and didn't cause any of the problems in your RS.

And fixing other peoples 'pot holes' is EXACTLY where you are going wrong.

 

 

And some 'Urban Dictionary' gives a definition and therefore abusive language is no longer abusive?

Are you JOKING?!!!

 

Seriously man, you need to grow up.

[Lonewing]

It's a Search term - I only bring it up brought it up because without the search term you will not be able to find the volumes written on this subject. I prefer to stick to using the term Avoidant, whereas it is much easier on the launguage. But as a search term, avoidant will not find the results tied to the former term.

 

Yes, I am the teflon man. There are those things which I am indeed liable for, those things which are my own responsibility. I'm aware of this. There are things I need to perosnally improve, and there are things which I am responsible for. I'm also aware of the overall balance - and in these situations, the root of the problem is dispproportionately slant towards avoidants. My first exposure to this avoidant theory, under the former term, and I literally slapped myself upside the head when I realized how foolish I had been.

 

When I saw the same behavior being repeated with myself no longer in the equation, that was when I knew for Absolutley sure that she was the issue in the relationship. She's with Guy 1. She shows up really late, more running ahead of guy 1 than arriving with guy 1. Been there, seen that, it's not as innocent as it appears - when we were late to going out like this, it was usually because of her "not feeling it" and then switching over to just going. She gets super drunk. She dances on the dance floor with guy 2. She kisses up on guy 2. Guy 1 confronts her. Guy 2 disappears. She becomes apologetic to guy 1, they embrace for a bit, then both leave. And this is 16 months after me and her broke up. This one event is only a little piece of the puzzle; I was privy once to the entire puzzle. And I would not at all be shocked to find out the rest of the puzzle is still the same as it was when I was in it.

 

Nothing I ever did would have made a different outcome with that girl. That's the point of coming to terms with being dumped by an avoidant - and it's a lesson in moving on and then NOT getting a new Avoidant, even though I am now aware that more chances than not, at my age I will find another avoidant. The lesson is, NOT to get into a relaitonship with them!

 

And yes, I'm not afraid of citing any source if the information itself is correct. It all goes back to the Emperor's New Clothes. It is a youth who finally declares to all that the Emperor is wearing nothing - and even though as a youth this person has no credibility whatsoever, the truth is still the truth. In this case, the definition provided by the Urban Dicitonary is perfectly valid - it provides a short answer for conventional practical use. But you can look around and find a more "credible" source to define the term if you need such credibility.

 

In healthy relationships, partners do indeed fill each other's potholes. I know, that may come as a shocker to you, but it all goes back to strengths and weaknesses; where one partner has a weakness, the other partner has a strength. In a good relationship, this leads to a balance upon which there is a purpose for reciprocation. In a bad relationship, there is no reciprocation. Indeed, you may even run into the isolationist attitude of "I have to do EVERYTHING myself, don't help me!" But that isn't so - specialization allows a wider range of net benefits for both partners - hence why we work together, as opposed to working apart, so well.

[kuteknish]

You simply don't understand attachment theory at all.

 

 

I like the debate going on between you two.. it's all valuable information about attachment theory from two different people, which means that the theory is definitely open to interpretation, and that might all depend too, on whether you fall in the avoidant, anxious, or secure category, or have a little of one or the other. I think you both make valid points.

[Windycitygal]

The problem also is, is that they don't recognize the 'issues' are issues at all.. they think they are normal and it's everyone else that has the problems... unless they recognize they have the issues, and seek out help, then they will continue with this path... my ex is almost 38 and is a love avoidant... doesn't realize it.. he thinks he just can't fall in love, but why would he think his ex knows anything about it... he just thinks he fell out of love, or was never in love at all, and it just wasn't "meant to be" or the "right fit" ... THEY have to realize the issue themselves... maybe anonymously send this article out.. LOL (just kidding)

 

This is my ex! To a tee! He is a love avoidant. But he doesn't go out with the boys.. he avoids things by going on his computer.

 

And if anyone has issues, it's their fault and not his.

[Sim54]

And if your relationships fail, it's your fault and not theirs, and if you have issues, it's your fault and not theirs.

Take some responsibility.

[RunawayLove]

WOW. It's AMAZING to see my ex described so accurately. Being with him highlights my flaws too. I AM pretty needy, I do rely on people for my happiness- else why would I still want to be with him when he treats me badly? It's needs to stop and I need to stop being such an anxious lover. However, I feel so bad for him. I believed that there were times when he truly wanted us to be together but his fear of love made him sabotage the relationship buy treating it/me like absolute crap.

 

I really want him to read this. Does anyone think reading this would make him want to change or get help? I'm doubtful because he's a pretty apathetic person. He's even indifferent to his own indifference. :S

[Sim54]

WOW. It's AMAZING to see my ex described so accurately. Being with him highlights my flaws too. I AM pretty needy, I do rely on people for my happiness- else why would I still want to be with him when he treats me badly? It's needs to stop and I need to stop being such an anxious lover. However, I feel so bad for him. I believed that there were times when he truly wanted us to be together but his fear of love made him sabotage the relationship buy treating it/me like absolute crap.

 

I really want him to read this. Does anyone think reading this would make him want to change or get help? I'm doubtful because he's a pretty apathetic person. He's even indifferent to his own indifference. :S

 

In my experience, someone like this will only change when they lose someone they really love, and realise that they don't want to lose someone like that again.

It happened to me, and I've spent nearly a year in analysis now, healing my wounded heart, to make sure I don't lose someone like that again.

The best thing you could do for him is cut him out of your life and move on. When he feels your loss he MAY realise that he's had enough. Whether you take him back down the line would depend on whether your saw that he had changed.

[RunawayLove]

In my experience, someone like this will only change when they lose someone they really love, and realise that they don't want to lose someone like that again.

It happened to me, and I've spent nearly a year in analysis now, healing my wounded heart, to make sure I don't lose someone like that again.

The best thing you could do for him is cut him out of your life and move on. When he feels your loss he MAY realise that he's had enough. Whether you take him back down the line would depend on whether your saw that he had changed.

 

Thank you! That's what I'm trying to do now. I've been no contact for nearly a month but it has been HARD.

 

Anyway, the debate between you and Lonewing has been most interesting! Both you guys are correct from where I stand but it seems like you guys are having a misunderstanding. Lonewing seems to underestimate the extent to which anxious lovers are responsible for the fact that they allow themselves to be hurt over and over again by avoidants. They continue to tolerate the whims of the avoidant at the expense of their sanity.

 

You may underestimating the fact that avoidants often appear to be JUST AS committed and in love at the beginning and then VERY SUDDENLY turn ice cold for NO reason. Man, that's enough to take a HUGE chunk out of *anyone's* sense of security and send then into a anxious state of bewilderment! No matter how secure you are.

 

After the sadness and disappointments however, confident (secure) people would probably get way more angry than depressed. They'd get pissed at the two-faced avoidant who wasted their time and would promptly move on and never look back.

 

On the other hand,anxious lovers do what they do best..they get anxious and continue run down avoidants demanding the love they were promised at any cost-making a complete disaster of themselves in the process of course.

 

Although the love avoidants are damaged themselves, their behavior towards people- whether anxious or secure is really a huge problem on their part through. I felt so betrayed and duped to be dropped that way by someone who professed all these deep feelings for me and gained my utmost trust. It was terrible. I think the only difference between the reactions of anxious and secure people is that secure people are able to cope with the betrayal better.

[Sim54]

Interesting points Runawaylove, and you seem to have a very balanced view of all this. Just a couple of things that I feel are important.

It's fairly rare for a secure person to end up with anyone who isn't secure. Secure people simply resonate on a completely different wavelength to anxious or avoidant types and can hardly even notice them. The important thing to remember is that attraction is largely subconscious, so saying that you didn't notice they were like this or that doesn't really matter, as on a subconscious level, an anxious person completely clicks with an avoidant EVEN if the avoidant doesn't appear so on the surface, they are sending out subtle clues which the anxious person will pick up on.

 

Generally, insecure people search out people on a subconscious level who will repeat the pattern they experienced in childhood, so someone who was abandoned will find someone who is MOST LIKELY to abandon them, so the anxious person can reply their childhood drama, and try to get the abandoner to stay, there by 'winning' their old battle.

 

And a love avoidant who was smothered as a child will search out someone anxious who will smother them, so they too can reply their old drama.

 

The other thing though is that if someone falls hard in love with you and is present in the relationship for perhaps a year or so, then goes cold and leaves you, that doesn't mean they are an avoidant. They may well have just come out of the honey moon period and realised that they don't love/like you anymore. It happens all the time. It probably means that they simply have shallow emotions. Usually, when someone really likes you too quickly, it's a bad sign that they are fantasising about you and they can't really see you. If someone isn't willing to take it slowly, then I would run quickly.

 

Ultimately, it's up to us to learn the signs of when someone is unhealthy for us and also understand our OWN issues, and how they lead us to unhealthy relationships, so we can heal our issues and grow to a more secure place where a strong love connection will happen more spontaneously and naturally, without all the drama of these avoidant/anxious relationships.

 

In the end, it's best to focus on ourselves, as we can't control or change another's behaviour, but we can change our own.

 

Peace.

[RunawayLove]

Thank you Simbad54, you made very good points. My ex boyfriend and I had an intense relationship for about 4 months before he broke it off the FIRST time (we broke up several times). And yeah, he was coming on pretty strongly, saying that he thought I was perfect and the kind of girl he really wants to marry etc. That should have been a red flag for me but I was only 18 and much more naive about all this stuff back then.

 

What you said about subconsciously seeking out partners to replay some childhood trauma is scary,though. It makes sense but I don't understand how it works because I honestly remember thinking he was a good guy who would treat me right and we were going to have this wonderful, close relationship.I didn't fantasize about him ignoring me and breaking my heart lol .Do you have any links you can refer me to? That'll be great, because I don't want to go down this road again and constantly end up with people who can't function in a relationship.

 

However, I understand now that my idea of closeness may be smothering to someone else and I need to not expect so much of my partners by being more autonomous.

[Sim54]

You're welcome. Well, seeing as you were so young, it's totally understandable that you fell for all this. You really had no way to know what was going on. Put it down to experience for now and learn from it.

 

You wouldn't fantasise about someone leaving you, but well, thoughts tend to become reality, so if someone has low self esteem and believes deep down that they aren't worthy of love, then they tend to sabotage relationships in very subtle ways.

 

BUT, I don't really think now is the time for you to delve to deeply into all this. You are young, and well, perhaps you were a bit smothering with him, but he CLEARLY has issues that you shouldn't have to deal with when you are just starting out in life. The multiple breakups is a bad sign of commitment phobia.

 

I don't doubt that he meant what he said/did when he loved you, but that can be even more confusing when he goes cold.

 

I'm not going to give you any links to psycho-analytical web sites for now, it is probably too much to absorb and you don't sound like you are really messed up or anything.

It can be a long and dark path going into all that stuff and you should only go there if you find your relationships follow a repeated and destructive pattern, so for now, get out there, live your life, and find a new guy to get to know, but take it SLOWLY.

 

If I have any advise to women regarding dating, it's to take it slow, uphold your boundaries and self respect and don't accept any * * * * . Don't sleep with a guy too soon, get to know him over a few weeks first. If he complains ditch him straight away. A good guy will always honour a woman's right to decide when to give herself to a man, and personally my respect and desire for a woman go through the roof if she withholds sex for a while to allow intimacy to grow slowly and spontaneously.

 

If a guy comes on too strong too soon, starts talking about love when clearly there hasn't been enough time for it to really develop, then be very very wary. But, well, you've already been burned, and will be more careful next time, but ultimately, we learn from our mistakes, so get out there and make some more!!

haha

 

You sound to me like you're in an ok place actually, intelligent and balanced, so don't sweat it too much.

 

As for the NC you're in, make sure you are moving on, re-setting your boundaries, building yourself back up to full strength. DON'T do this if you are hoping he will change and come back. It will take him about 1 to 2 years minimum to deal with his issues IF he has realised he has them, and is in therapy and is working to change them. If he ISN'T, then you're going to have to bite the bullet and accept it's over forever, because he WON'T change unless he wants to.

 

It IS hard to leave someone you love, but it's vital that you place your emotional well being above being in a relationship.

 

Peace.

[kuteknish]

After a breakup, I recommend each and every person whether you are the dumper or dumpee starts learning a little bit more about themselves. Why were you in a relationship with another person and couldn't make it work or why didn't it work, if you really did want it to work after all the time investment. I think we are all ALWAYS works in progress. We should never stop learning and break ups are great times to take some time and better yourself for your own benefit and the benefit of your next relationship... whoever that may be with.

I recommend if you are going through heartache and have done some work on what YOU brought to the relationship, and have come to terms with your side, you pick up this book and understand it.

I'm nearly 6 months out of a BU with a clear avoidant. I have done a lot of work on myself and learned a lot about what I brought to the relationship and also what he brought. I understand our dynamics a lot better and it is helping me move on better. I thought i would never get here though... but i have.

[GreenPolicy]

 

The other thing though is that if someone falls hard in love with you and is present in the relationship for perhaps a year or so, then goes cold and leaves you, that doesn't mean they are an avoidant. They may well have just come out of the honey moon period and realised that they don't love/like you anymore. It happens all the time. It probably means that they simply have shallow emotions. Usually, when someone really likes you too quickly, it's a bad sign that they are fantasising about you and they can't really see you. If someone isn't willing to take it slowly, then I would run quickly.

 

 

 

There's three main attachment styles, right? Secure, Anxious and Avoidant. Nobody falls purely into one category or the other. For instance, I am a secure attacher with a few anxious traits.

 

I don't think a secure attacher is the kind of person who leaps before they look, love-wise, and then suddenly goes cold when they realize their perfect fantasy is not so perfect after all. A secure attacher knows the difference between lust and love, and between the infatuation of the honeymoon stage and the committed love that comes when the honeymoon ends. They accept their partner's flaws and choose to love them anyway. The people that suddenly go cold I think can only be avoidant or anxious. If a secure attacher has been with somebody long enough to get to a more committed stage, such as contemplating getting engaged, moving in together, getting married, etc, it's a long journey for them to decide to end the relationship. I don't think a secure attacher can fall out of love in a period of a few weeks. It is literally the case that they attach securely.

 

In the case of my ex, if I had to guess, she probably contemplated ending the relationship anywhere from 3-6 weeks. It's not something she thought about for months. If that had been the case, she would never have loaned me her bike and gone to the trouble of going down to her parents house to get it (a three hour round trip), as well as letting me know the schedule for several weddings we were scheduled to go to, if she was planning on leaving me. Nor would she have been emailing me suggestions for wedding venues and reminding me that her parents wanted to meet mine at dinner so the future in-laws could meet.

[GreenPolicy]

What book are you talking about? He's Scared, She's Scared?

[GreenPolicy]

What book are you talking about? The book Attached, or the book He's Scared, She's Scared?