Avoidant Love vs. Secure/Anxious Love

[Skier]

Wow, I am so there right now. I'm living with my friend to give us (really him) a break for two weeks. He says he wants to leave me and is not in love with me. I asked him to come to counselling and he agreed but I'm not convinced it will help him. I'm having a hard time staying where I am because I have some OCD issues. My husband is a full introvert who is quiet but can also be passivley controlling. He was moved around a lot as a child. Went to 7 high schools. Became an alcoholic but is now 16 years sober and has a good job. I really think he has social issues. He has no idea how to get along with me. I'm not all sugar either. But he just doesn't get social clues like taking jackets, or offering a drink or be sympathetic when I tell of my bad day. He also just gets ready to leave the house but won't say where he is going. When I've spoken to him about how it is a common courtesy he just doesn't understand it. Sometimes he will go out to snow shovel and come back in and make not that I didn't come out to help. Maybe if he said where he was going I would have. Strange. I get clingy to get some attention for myself even if it's really going towards him. Weird.

[Lonewing]

The important thing here is to not dwell on your ex's failings, but instead what was the payoff for being with him?

You were clearly codependent with him, so although it's tempting to blame him, in fact he had no part in your failed relationship, just as you had no part in his. You are responsible for your behaviour. Not him.

 

Co-dependency is part of a normal healthy relationship...it's how most relationships work, there's a mutual dependency upon each other. It's a total shocker, I know!!

[Lonewing]

Er, codependency is BAD isn't a myth. It is bad. It's an unhealthy, need based attachment with little or no real love involved.

This isn't an either/or thing.

No-one who believes in independence believes attachment is bad. It's only the kind of attachment which makes it unhealthy or not.

We are all social animals and we 'need' each other.

But when that need leads to self abandonment, then that is when it becomes codependent.

Again, this isn't a black or white issues, but degrees of healthy and unhealthy.

 

It is vital for a person to be fully separate and whole to be able to have a relationship.

Any kind of enmeshment and inability to move smoothly between independent and dependent (also called interdepence) is going to lead to trouble.

Peace.

 

Pick up the book and read it. Everything you currenlty know about codependency has been put at the forefront by avoidants - 25% of the population and most of the single population in older generations - as a means to better supporting their position. They have many Anxious supporters - people who will argee with jsut abotu anythign an avoidant will do or say because they are trying to be with the avoidant. It's in the secure relaitonships wher eyou see no discussion about co-dependency. That's because they know they are co-dependent upon each other and they have accpeted this "weakness" because they recognize that as one they are stronger and more capable than any two people could be alone.

 

Powerful thesis...

[Lonewing]

Since everybody is strong with the Car Analogy, I think I can put these relationships in such terms.

 

The avoidant is that guy who wants all the benefits of driving the car, but absolutely none of the responsibilities that go with the car.

 

You can be pretty certain that he will never put much more than a drop of gas in the tank, much less look under the hood or check the oil. Every time he brings the car back, there's also another dent, or a crack in the windshield, or another sound under the hood. In short, you will be responsible for all the maintenance. And somehow all those new sounds will be your fault too. He might use the dents as a fair excuse to get himself out of the relationship and find someone else to smooch off of - all while apologizing for his carelessness in words, btu never actually doing anything in words. You could even have a PERFECT car with this guy, and one night out and he'll ram it right into a tree just to prove to you that you and him won't work out. Self destructive, self fulfilling prophecies, the whole nine yards. But never the tenth. You could almost swear this type of person is TRYING to lose!

 

Simbad has nailed one part - examine yourself, and ask just what you are deriving from these people. There is no 'best' that will suit these people - they want everything, a little at a time, and then something else altogether once they've had their fill. It's even easier so long as they have so many people to get their fixes from - primarily other anxious people, since they are such free givers.

 

The secure type knows how to balance this other partner - they know how to keep an anxious at a proper length, and they simply let the avoidant go altogether. As far as I understand, thus far, anyhow.

[Sim54]

Co-dependency is part of a normal healthy relationship...it's how most relationships work, there's a mutual dependency upon each other. It's a total shocker, I know!!

 

Sorry, but where on EARTH do you get the idea that codependency is part of a normal healthy relationship?!

It was originally coined to describe people who were in a relationship with an alcoholic?!

And you call that normal and healthy?

Also, to make a statement like the above is erroneous. The majority of human relationships are actually unhealthy, something like 80% of people having less than healthy relationships with themselves, and therefore others. So, what appears 'normal' is in fact just rife. Just because a lot of people do something doesn't make it healthy, although it will make it prevalent.

 

Codependency by definition is a negative bonding pattern.

link removed

 

And the idea that it is put out there by avoidant types to further their own views is nonsense. It was and is an idea coined and used in therapeutic circles to help people deal with relationships with troubled or addicted people.

 

I have to say i find the the fact that you can present this stuff publicly as quite disturbing. It can have a lasting effect on people and could seriously impede there growth, healing, and their chances of having a healthy relationship.

 

I suggest you check your facts first before redefining the term codependency.

[kuteknish]

The secure type knows how to balance this other partner - they know how to keep an anxious at a proper length, and they simply let the avoidant go altogether. As far as I understand, thus far, anyhow.

 

I think once you have been with an avoidant, you will see the warning signs and be able to notice them before your heart gets so involved. Unfortunately for me, my heart was involved too much and I still have some itty bitty hope he will change. such is life. I am more educated now though.

[kuteknish]

I think dependency is normal and healthy is any relationship. You depend on the other person to a certain degree. If not, why are you involved ?

[Sim54]

I think dependency is normal and healthy is any relationship. You depend on the other person to a certain degree. If not, why are you involved ?

 

Of course it is, but then, we're not talking about dependency, we're talking codependency, which is another thing entirely.

[Lonewing]

I would suggest you read what this book has to say on co-dependency before you argue any further against it...in general, pages 19-35 and in particular, 25-29.

 

Your viewpoints are precisly identified by the authors as being very popular within the community at this point. Co-dependency was initially used to describe substance and alcohol abuse, where they are apporpriate. These authors make the claim that in the view of relaitonships, where the relationship it is between two people and not a person and a substance, it is inappropriate and as a result holding this viewpoint leads to a phobia of getting into relationships which become too close - and as a result, create more avoidant behavior.

 

Per the authors, they estimate that 25% of the population are Avoidants, and most of the people over the age of 30 in the dating crowd are avoidants as well - whereas most of the secures are already married or in relationships, while those secures who are married to Anxious type are also in stable long term relationships, thus accounting for the imbalance of Avoidants, and not 50-50 Avoidant/Anxious. Which group would benefit most from extrolling the virtures of single, indepedent living? The group of people who are trying to stay out of an LTR [but enjoy STRs] or the group looking for LTRs but getting burnt by these same avoidants? This is not rocket science...

 

Your viewpoint about relationships [80% are unhealthy??!!!] only further suggests your contempt towards relationships. I realize you are in the "you can't be in a complete relationship until you are complete yourself" camp, but this idea also goes against, as you say, 80% of all relationships, of which many are successful - inspite of one or more partners not being "all there" as individuals. So which is it?

 

Many people subscribe to the "men are from mars, women are from venus" myth as well. Just because it is popular doesn't make it correct! I'd almost liken MAFM, WAFV to astrology.

[Lonewing]

Of course it is, but then, we're not talking about dependency, we're talking codependency, which is another thing entirely.

 

The terms are used interchangeably depending on the convienience of the term...

[Sim54]

The terms are used interchangeably depending on the convienience of the term...

 

Er, no, they not, they mean different things. Check your definitions.

 

What makes you think that I have contempt for relationships?

It is not the case.

I simply am aware of myself, my shortcomings, and my issues, and choose not to blame them on others.

You seem to resent the fact that perhaps you ended up with an avoidant, you got hurt, and the therapuetic community suggested that perhaps you were responsible for your failed relationship, but you'd rather blame those nasty evil avoidants who are out to get you.

Avoidant and anxiously attached are actually on the same side of the spectrum, and are more alike than disimilar, both having suffered abandonment and neglect as infants.

 

As per above, it's extremely unlikely that a securely attached person would actually date an anxious or avoidant, as they would find their behaviour unattractive.

Avoidants attract anxious, and anxious attract avoidants, it's the reworking of there childhood dynamic at play. Neither is worse than the other, nor more to blame than the other, and BOTH people need to wise up and see that they are the architect of their own lives, and ultimately are responsible for their own feelings, behaviours and failures at relationship.

 

Co-dependency was initially used to describe substance and alcohol abuse, where they are apporpriate.

 

No, it wasn't. It was originally used to describe the behaviour of someone who was dating someone else who was sufferring from alcohol abuse.

It specifically describes the enmeshed state that the codependent enters into where they forgo their own emotional health so they can tend to the alcoholic.

Anyone who could consider that kind of self abuse and self abandonment on the part of the codependent as part of a healthy natural relationship needs to stop and think about things a bit. The word now is used to also describe a relationship where one of the people suffers from an emotional disorder, or eating, sex, substance abuse is present. it also relates to the work environment.

 

Yes, i do subscribe to the few that people need to have reached a certain level of emotional maturity and separation before being able to have a healthy and successful relationship. A relationship again by definition, takes place between two separate people, not two enmeshed people, who have effectively become one person.

 

I have experienced this myself on both sides of the spectrum, both as the anxious side, and the avoidant side, as neurotic people tend to actually suffer both sides and can often swing from one to the other, depending on the relationship they are in.

 

Your viewpoint about relationships [80% are unhealthy??!!!] only further suggests your contempt towards relationships. I realize you are in the "you can't be in a complete relationship until you are complete yourself" camp, but this idea also goes against, as you say, 80% of all relationships, of which many are successful - inspite of one or more partners not being "all there" as individuals. So which is it?

 

It isn't black or white. Of course it's possible for someone to be 'not all there' in a relationship. It's a matter of degree. But if someone finds that there neurotic behaviour is so extreme as to mean they pursue the same relationship time and time again, each one failing in the same way, then it's clear that some growth has to take place. If two people are happy and content then I'm not going to suggest they split up and work on themselves! But if your relationships are failing, then simply blaming someone else (avoidants), and not trying to find out WHY you are attracted to them is unlikely going to lead to a healthy relationship any time soon.

 

I have now pledged myself to healing, and am currently single as I no longer want to damage myself nor anyone else. When I am stronger, i will go and find a mature adult to love and built a strong partnership with.

 

I will not blame others for my behaviour, nor will I steam in, without thought to the effect my actions will have on a significant other.

 

One last thing, the term codependent has been around for over 30 years, but there have been support groups for codependents since the 40's. It is not a modern phenomenon, but has been recognised for a while now.

 

Just because someone writes a book that get's people of the hook of facing themselves, doesn't mean that decades of research and understanding are suddenly bunk.

 

I'll check your book out soon.

May i recommend:

Anxious To Please: Seven Revolutionary Practises For The Chronically Nice.

It goes into a lot of depth about the causes and solutions to anxious attachment.

 

Peace.

[Lonewing]

The lessons of this book is simple: avoid the avoidants altogether. In their case, it really IS them. You can't hang your hat on something that doesn't exist, and in this case, with these people, a relationship with them doesn't actually exist. These are the relationships where one partner want's normal things like marriage, kids, closeness, so on and so forth, and the other partner wants co-habitation, an open relationship, or just a short fling. Promises are easy to give - these people heap them on when it comes to getting what they want, and once satisfied, disappear or withdraw altogether. These people as they currently are, are simply unfit for monogamous LTRs - and everything about their behaviors suggests there's nothing in them any normal human being would want from them in the long term - so we have to simply learn what the traits are and then NOT fall for them.

 

I did indeed have a relationship with an avoidant, and for a while I did think it was something about me that was to blame. But then I started looking at everything around the situation, and I realized, no, it really WAS her. And I have not just my relationship with her to offer as evidence, but the four prior and the one latter to add to this defense. It made it so much easier to move on once I realized there was absolutely nothing I ever could or could HAVE done to save our relationship.

 

You cannot have a relationship with someone who keeps adding distance every single time you start getting close. That's an abusive relationship - and it's the behavior propogated by avoidants. I've been aware of this long before the book ever came into my life, as I've recognized and read about it in other places. To finally have this in such a concise written form, though, is a great relief.

 

Just because a body of knowledge is held to be true by a large number of people doesn't make it true either. The physical sciences have proven this over, and over, and painfully over again. The greatest example has been Wegner's thesis about continental drift. And an ever prevelent theory that persists is that of Astrology - which has been around for a very long time, and yet, there are still people who believe very strongly in it.

[GreenPolicy]

My story -

 

 

We started dating October 2009, when I was 31 and she had just turned 30. She told me at the beginning that most of her relationships were short-term, just a few months, because the guys would annoy her and she had only two previous relationships that lasted as long as a year. Her background is that her biological father abandoned her mom when she was pregnant and told her mom to get an abortion. She was raised by her mom and stepdad and she said that they would fight all the time over her. Her stepdad is who she considers her real father, but she even expressed some resentment about him when we were together ("He'll come up to Dallas and Fort Worth to go to the gun show, but he won't come up to take me to dinner.")

 

Anyways we hit it off, had a great connection and chemistry, similar values, goals in life. We started talking marriage. I have a card from her from last Valentine's Day where she writes "I have always been wondering when God would bring my future husband into my life and now I've found him. I know I will succeed in life with you as my husband by my side." She sat her parents down and told them I was The One and I was different from all the other guys she'd ever dated. She told me throughout the time we were together that it was the best relationship she'd ever been in. She even introduced me to her biological father, something she had never done with any guy she had ever dated before. Her parents wanted to meet mine.

 

Six weeks before she dumped me she was emailing me suggestions for wedding venues. A month before she dumped me she reminded me that her parents really wanted to meet mine and we needed to arrange a dinner to make that happen. Five days before she dumped me she made a comment in an email about what kind of ring she wanted.

 

Last fall we were supposed to go to four weddings, all for her friends/family. We had already been to one. The last time I ever hung out with her was Thursday, October 14th at her apartment. When I got there, I told her I had secured a job interview for Sunday, October 17th for a second job to pay for the ring. That night while I was hanging out with her my mom called. My dad had driven home drunk from work and crashed his truck into her car in the driveway, totalling both vehicles. I left my ex there to help my mom take him to a rehab facility.

 

So the next Saturday, October 16th, we were supposed to go to another wedding for her friend, and I had let my mom borrow my car since my dad had wrecked both of theirs. My ex texts me at nine in the morning asking to come over.I thought it was weird that she wanted to come over so early, so I texted her back and said "We have several hours to kill before the wedding, what do you want to do?" And she texts back "I'll be there in 30 and we can talk." So that got my radar up immediately and I called her and she didn't answer. I called again and she didn't pick up. So when she got to my place I pretty much knew what she was about to do.

 

Remember how I said she had never been with a guy longer than a year? This was exactly two weeks shy of our first anniversary. She says she doesn't feel like she can love me the way I want to be loved and need to be loved. I tell her I don't feel neglected by her. She says when I give her compliments and show her affection, she doesn't feel like that person on the inside. She says she's never been in a relationship longer than a year and she always does this. She says she doesn't want to waste anymore of my time and make me go to weddings I don't want to go to and don't have to go to. I tell her that I never resented having to go to weddings with her, I just loved being with her, and I didn't care what we did. After about 15 minutes she got up and left. I missed a couple red flags before she broke up with me. The last month she was a little distant, so I guess she was detaching. She made a very weird comment a few weeks before breaking up about how she wanted to go to heaven now. I was like "What the hell? Don't you mean you want to go to heaven when you die? What about our future together? You're not looking forward to that?" And she says don't worry, I'm not suicidal, I'd just rather be there now. There were also a few other occasions where she said she wished Jesus would come back already. She also made a comment that was a precursor to when she broke up with me and she said she couldn't love me the exact same way that I loved her and I needed to be okay with that. Since up to this time we had both been very happy with each other, I thought she was talking about different loving styles and was like "Sure, no problem."

 

I never called, texted, emailed, IM'd, showed up at her apt or job, sought out her friends or family. The only two gestures I made post breakup were to send her flowers and I wrote her a snail letter. The snail letter basically said that I respected her decision, but that I thought what we had together was worth trying to save and that I wanted to try couples counseling. And if she didn't want to do that, then we couldn't be friends or remain in touch.

 

Her response to that final letter was to maintain 2.5 months of radio silence and then she emailed me during funeral preparations for my grandfather to ask for her bike back. She didn't know about my grandfather when she wrote but it's something she should have taken care of when she broke up with me.

 

It was sad and weird seeing her again. The whole encounter lasted four minutes. I could tell she was genuinely glad to see me, but it felt like there was this invisible plane between us. I didn't want to inquire about what she was currently up to and risk info I wouldn't want to hear, nor could I bring up the past without pissing her off. I figured that whining and begging to get back together, or being hateful and spiteful (even if she deserves it) gets their conscience off the hook and eases their guilt, so I played it dignified. After I loaded the bike in her vehicle, I said "I just want to say take care of yourself, I wish you well, I will always care about you, and thank you for letting me be a part of your life." And she said "Aww thank you" and then I told her goodbye and walked back to my apt.

 

I feel a little better these days, not so much sad anymore, but just really angry and frustrated about the whole situation. Angry at her for how she handled things. Frustrated that I can't do anything about it. Intellectually I understand that I was spared even worse pain in the future by her ending things now, since one of three things would have happened: her calling things off between formally getting engaged and the wedding, getting divorced, or being in a marriage with somebody that only allows for so much intimacy and connection and puts up emotional walls. But emotionally it's hard to accept that. Most breakups there is some sort of underlying logic to what is occurring, and that didn't happen here. And she was very immature and cruel in her refusal to communicate. And usually when a relationship ends, it's been going downhill for a while. Things were still very, very good. And then there were the plans and commitment she made that she was unable and unwilling to follow through on. Most people I talk to say that these are commitment/intimacy/abandonment/daddy issues and I'm better off. But man is it hard to emotionally accept that. All you remember is that the relationship itself was grounded and stable, full of love, almost no drama or conflict, and how could somebody walk away from that?

 

She discarded me like a piece of garbage, and abandoned me when I needed her the most after what happened with my dad. It's not normal to so quickly go from "I love you, I want to marry you, you're the best I've ever had" (and mean it) to wanting me out of your life. The whole thing has been a huge mindf*ck. Five months on I feel a little better, but I'm still hurting a lot.

[Sim54]

You cannot have a relationship with someone who keeps adding distance every single time you start getting close. That's an abusive relationship - and it's the behavior propogated by avoidants. I've been aware of this long before the book ever came into my life, as I've recognized and read about it in other places. To finally have this in such a concise written form, though, is a great relief.

 

I absolutely agree! But, do you not see, that it is YOU, who is messing up your relationships?

They mess up theirs by being avoidant.

And you mess up yours because there is some damaged part in you who is constantly attracted to them?

You are totally responsible for your life.

It isn't them.

And you have latched onto this theory as it allows you to blame others for your failed relationships, rather than take total responsibility for the life you are living.

 

I'm sorry, but you need to grow up and stop whining that all these nasty avoidant messed everything up.

You were there too, creating an unhealthy relationship.

Every time they did something dysfunctional, you did some dysfunctional in reaction.

A healthy person would have legged it straight away, wouldn't have even got past the first date.

You need to wise up to YOURSELF, and YOUR issues and stop going on about others failings, which are frankly nothing to do with you any way.

 

You have had SIX of these relationships?! And it's STILL not you doing this to yourself?

Why do you KEEP going there?

Why?

 

You cannot have a relationship with someone who keeps adding distance every single time you start getting close. I totally agree, so why did you keep going there time and time again? Ignorance is not an excuse.

 

That's an abusive relationship - and it's the behavior propogated by avoidants. And colluded in by their partners. You helped make it unhealthy.

It is totally impossible for a healthy person to have a relationship with an unhealthy one. By definition of 'healthy' they will walk away. You stayed, and indeed went back over and over. Don't tell me that is healthy.

 

Go and check this website out and see what it says about taking responsibility for oneself. Especially the stuff on nice guys.

It's an eye opener.

 

link removed (you need to change the stars, as ENA sensors the word biatch)

[GreenPolicy]

You cannot have a relationship with someone who keeps adding distance every single time you start getting close. That's an abusive relationship - and it's the behavior propogated by avoidants. I've been aware of this long before the book ever came into my life, as I've recognized and read about it in other places. To finally have this in such a concise written form, though, is a great relief.

 

I absolutely agree! But, do you not see, that it is YOU, who is messing up your relationships?

 

I just got out of a relationship with one of these types of people. Honestly she kept this stuff well-hidden. I really thought we were on track to get engaged and get married. From now on, I will take things slower and be more on the lookout for red flags. There were a couple of those red flags that I didn't pay attention to and I paid the price.

[GreenPolicy]

Some of these avoidants are what are known as "future fakers." They lead to you believe that they desire a long-term future with you. Future fakers come on strong and make gestures indicating their desire for a long-term committed relationship with you, they talk about a future together, such as getting married, having kids, etc, and then at a certain point when it becomes clear that the other person intends to hold them to their commitment, they bail. They come in two varieties: the first are straight up users. From the start they are not honest with their partner about what they really want out of the relationship and what their agenda is. An example would be the married man who tells his mistress that he wants to leave his wife to be with her, when all he wants is sex outside his marriage. So the mistress is expecting him to leave his wife and marry her when he never has any intention of doing so. They bail when it's time to make good on their promises. The second category of future fakers are the people who get swept up in the romance and are sincere at the time that they make these gestures and plans, but when the honeymoon stage gives way to the reality stage, the dust settles, and they realize the enormity of what they've committed themselves to, they feel cornered and panic. And so they bail.

[Sim54]

I just got out of a relationship with one of these types of people. Honestly she kept this stuff well-hidden. I really thought we were on track to get engaged and get married. From now on, I will take things slower and be more on the lookout for red flags. There were a couple of those red flags that I didn't pay attention to and I paid the price.

 

Hey, if it's never happened to you before, then sure, you can get hoodwinked, but also if there was NO sign of odd behaviour in the RS, then they weren't avoidant. If they were, you would know about it. Anyway, if you have 6 or 7 of these relationships, as lonewing has, then there is no excuse.

 

For some reason, people mostly walk blindly into relationships.

They meet someone they fancy, they have sex, and within a month they're in 'love' and off they go, only to get devastated months later because they went too fast and didn't get to know the person. Personally, I want to know someone for a few MONTHS before I have sex with them, and then take it super slowly. I want to fall in love down the line, not straight away.

 

Anyway, I'm sorry you got burned but let it be a lesson to you and screen your lovers better.

if they come from bad or broken home and aren't TOTALLY dedicated to healing themselves, and in therapy, then run.

And don't look back.

 

Look for someone who is stable, and can demonstrate it.

 

Good luck.

[Sim54]

The second category of future fakers are the people who get swept up in the romance and are sincere at the time that they make these gestures and plans, but when the honeymoon stage gives way to the reality stage, the dust settles, and they realize the enormity of what they've committed themselves to, they feel cornered and panic. And so they bail.

 

That's not a future faker, that's someone who rushed into love, and then fell out of love, and there was no real relationship there. Nothing to do with being avoidant.

[Lonewing]

See, here's the thing...when the relationship is PERFECT this hour and goes to Zero in the next hour and I did ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING DIFFERENT between then and now...I'm sorry, but that's where I draw the line. No, it really IS them - I'm not alone, GreenPolicy is not alone, there are many many more who have had experience with this subject.

 

I ran into a site after my ex dumped my that labels these people "Emotionally Unavailable A--clowns." That's when I first really understood that it wasn't me, it was her - and that there are a lot more people out there like her. The funny part is, she liked to insist she was not one of those people.

 

You seem to miss alot here, I mean SHE has had five of these relationships, plus mine to make six [that I know of]. The four prior I learned about while I was with her - she was incredibly open with information in some regards - and the latter I learned about a month before I was to leave for training. You ask why we get into these relaitonships with these people - and it's really quite simple; on the surface they appear ot be lvoing, caring, wholistic individuals withthe capacity and capability to engaage in a matrue long term relationship. They KNOW how to hide their insecurities - as I said before, they KNOW how to play the LARCENY game. And once someone commits larceny onece, there's really no turning back for the rest of their life.

 

Larceny being, giving something false in exchange for something real. These people know what they are doing. We fall for them because we are giving them the relationship we seek, a relationship that is normal, healthy and wholistic within the other 75% of the population. And we are not used to their game - but a couple times, and we learn our lessons well! If nything, it makes us cut people off a lot sooner, thus appearing "cold" or "judgemental." Well excuse me for not wanting to get my heart broken! I'm sorry, but a rap sheet and a history of actions a mile long begrets any words that might be said here and now!! Reading the red flags is a learning curve - and I'm much better at it now than I was.

 

Why do we do it? Because we are the people who believe in standing by the people we love, and being there for them as we'd like them to be there for us. This might be a surprise to you, but there really are people who reciprocate this relationship. Most of them are married. There's always that first we're willing to give a chance to - they burn that bridge, we turn it into a beacon for all others to see.

 

Dysfunction alone is not a negative sign. There are many dysfunctional couples who work just fine diespite - or even as a result - of their dysfunction. the difference is, these people do not have a heart - or at least, are not willing to give their heart to any permanent situation. A commitment is too strong for them, especially the responsibility that goes with it.

 

There are those poeple who, in the presence of someone healthy, will adopt healthy lifestyle for themselves as well. These people recognize their deficencies, recognize the motivation for making that shift in their life, and work towards filling them - with the support of their partner. Those relationships work, hence why relationships between a secure and an anxious work out to a positive outcome.

 

You aim a lot of negative attention towards nice guys as if they're scourge or something. The main problem with a lot of nice guys is, they're aiming their energy at the wrong people. That's part of the learning curve, though, and we improve with age. You don't hear from a lot of the successful nice guys, though, because they ended up married quite quickly out of high school or college, and they're still married today and they have no need to seek out sites like this.

[Lonewing]

I've only ever had One of these sorts of relationships...I'm sorry you got the wrong idea there...but anyhow...

 

I did know her for a few months. And she was making great progress in demonstrating she was capable of being stable. On one hand, I'd love to say she's the latter type of Future faker [as in, they provide a fake representation of the future!] but at this point she's done it so many times I'm afraid she really is guilty of committing relationship larceny; she's one of the first type.

[Lonewing]

That's not a future faker, that's someone who rushed into love, and then fell out of love, and there was no real relationship there. Nothing to do with being avoidant.

 

That's what an avoidant IS, though...they fall In love, then discover they're not 'in love' anymore, and then run. The reason there isn't a relationship, is because they haven't committed themselves to be in the relationship. And in a long term relationship, love isn't an emotion, its a commitment that transcends the day to day emotions. No commitment, no relationship. And that commitment isn't lacking from the other person - because that other person 99 out of 100 times is the Dumpee who never saw it coming.

[Sim54]

That's what an avoidant IS, though...they fall In love, then discover they're not 'in love' anymore, and then run. The reason there isn't a relationship, is because they haven't committed themselves to be in the relationship. And in a long term relationship, love isn't an emotion, its a commitment that transcends the day to day emotions. No commitment, no relationship. And that commitment isn't lacking from the other person - because that other person 99 out of 100 times is the Dumpee who never saw it coming.

Maybe, just maybe, they fell out of love because of you, and your behaviour?

Did that ever enter your hear?

Maybe you misrepresented yourself as well, as most people hide who they are in the beginning, and when the truth came out they ran?

Did that ever occur to you?

Or do you think you're perfect?

 

I didn't see it was her who'd had all those RS's and sure, that is a big sign. And YES, this woman has BIG issues. BUT, SO WHAT?!!!

It's nothing to do with you!

All you are doing here is bleating and whining on about her.

 

What do you mean that is really is her?

It really is her what? Who messed up YOUR relationship?

There are TWO relationships between people. Your's and hers.

You are 100% responsible for yours.

She is 100T responsible for hers.

 

She is not an a**clown. She's a very damaged girl. She was badly mistreated and is immature and not ready to face herself yet.

But neither are you quite clearly.

 

Why do we do it? Because we are the people who believe in standing by the people we love, and being there for them as we'd like them to be there for us. This might be a surprise to you, but there really are people who reciprocate this relationship. Most of them are married. There's always that first we're willing to give a chance to - they burn that bridge, we turn it into a beacon for all others to see.

 

Look, there is nothing wrong with this, but why are you commiting to someone who isn't doing it back?

That is NOT love, that is self abuse.

YOU did that, not her.

 

That kind of commitment is EARNED, but anxious needy nice guys and girls give it up without even CHECKING to see if the other is in with them.

 

You REALLY need to stop blaming other people and stop being a victim.

 

Check out Karpmans drama triangle. Google it.

 

I'm done here.

[kuteknish]

That's what an avoidant IS, though...they fall In love, then discover they're not 'in love' anymore, and then run. The reason there isn't a relationship, is because they haven't committed themselves to be in the relationship. And in a long term relationship, love isn't an emotion, its a commitment that transcends the day to day emotions. No commitment, no relationship. And that commitment isn't lacking from the other person - because that other person 99 out of 100 times is the Dumpee who never saw it coming.

 

To the avoidant, they may "love" the other person, but are very afraid of what that feeling represents: commitment & liability & pressure. ... So they run away.

[bungalo]

This thread is of great interest to me. I am a little tired of pathologizing the ex....you could call these people CP (commitment phobic) too. Lonewing, you are right on...no one is a pure typology. Everyone is a blend. In extreme cases, its called co-morbidity. Can you tell that I dated a shrink for five years?

 

I have had some contact with my ex recently (in person, and by phone). It is very civilized and less emotionally charged now. She broke up and ran away from me three times, but when we see each other (we live about 2 miles away so it happens every couple of months)..the attraction and chemistry is STILL THERE and STRONG AS EVER! She won't drop the "L" word...but believe me boys and girls...she does still love me.

 

So long story short, she now openly acknowledges that SHE IS THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM, AND PROJECTED ALL THIS NEGATIVITY ON ME!!! So...my friends...I know what you're thinking...(maybe) self-knowledge, admitting that you have a problem is the first step towards recovery right? Time will tell, but honestly, I fully expect her to just keep up her avoidant behavior for good. So, to sum up (btw, thanks for indulging me dear readers!) the ex still loves me, and is still drawn to me, all the negativity and bitterness and most of the pain (on my part) is gone...and we're still apart. Thank you and drive safely!

[GreenPolicy]

To the avoidant, they may "love" the other person, but are very afraid of what that feeling represents: commitment & liability & pressure. ... So they run away.

 

I think they do indeed love their partners, but their capacity to love is not as strong as a normal person's. It's why it's so easy for them to run, because they believe that they can come back if life after you doesn't pan out the way that they want it to. Feelings are necessary when it comes to love...but love is also actions, a day to day commitment to stand with and by your partner, and it's hard for these people to do that.

 

I honestly think the only kind of relationship in which they can thrive is with other avoidants, where there is a certain amount of distance (emotional, physical, mental, geographical or otherwise) built in.