Avoidant Love vs. Secure/Anxious Love

[kuteknish]

bumpity !!

[Blue4now]

this kind of made me sad this morning because as much as I believe what I just wrote above.. about the avoidant person in the relationship, this made me sad because I remember looking for signs and dwelling on them. My ex started to feel that he would just never make me happy because I was constantly feeling like he didn't want to truly be with me... BUT all he had to say to quell my fears was something calm like "I want to be here, stop thinking the way you do. I want to be here" or something of the like.. instead, he was scared to say anything but "yes" or something that wasn't enough for me to hear to quell that fear. I became more anxious because he became more avoidant and the cycle kept going. It wasn't that it was "over"..

 

Hey Kutenish, Your statement sums up my relationship to a tee! This time around, he let me know that he has no desire to be saturated with relationship talk, and that I should just trust him, and that all is ok - instead of seeking confirmation all the time. He said I made his "head hurt" with all the insecurity. So, I am really taking a leap of faith now, and so far it's working for him. For me, it is still a real challenge when he can be just awesome half the time, and distant the other. It really is like being with a schizophrenic, but I'm adjusting to not vocalizing my insecurities. It never worked anyway. When he becomes distant, I go into distant mode too. Then, HE comes around. It really isn't very natural feeling, and it's hard to be myself. Ain't love grand. Not the partner I would have picked out, but I fell hard before I knew what hit me. It IS better than it was before, because at least now one of us is happy all the time.

[kuteknish]

Avoidant personality disorder... do you think those with this sort of attachment style would be likely to hold jobs where they are kept busy and occupied? Such as a lawyer or a chemist or something.. something that would allow them to confine their emotions because they are so preoccupied?

[Tired Tiger]

I don't know about the occupational connection, but...

 

Avoidant personality disorder... do you think those with this sort of attachment style...

 

It seems you've tied together two distinctly separate things! There's very specific differences in the manifestations of the disorder and what we've been discussing here (the "attachment style"). One doesn't necessarily equal the other.

 

If anything (and I hesitate encouraging any sort of amateur diagnosing, just to be clear), a closer related psychology topic would be something known as "Relationship OCD", or "ROCD" - a more clinical term being "Relationship Substantiation". Fascinating stuff...

[kuteknish]

I don't know about the occupational connection, but...

 

 

 

It seems you've tied together two distinctly separate things! There's very specific differences in the manifestations of the disorder and what we've been discussing here (the "attachment style"). One doesn't necessarily equal the other.

 

If anything (and I hesitate encouraging any sort of amateur diagnosing, just to be clear), a closer related psychology topic would be something known as "Relationship OCD", or "ROCD" - a more clinical term being "Relationship Substantiation". Fascinating stuff...

 

definitely interesting.

[kuteknish]

bumping this thread.

[banal]

This is my (most recent) ex.

[Sagreras]

A case of lung cancer is an emotionally munificent experience compared to an encounter with an avoidant.

 

I’ve had my head craned so far into my lower intestinal tract that I was unable to make an accurate assessment of my avoidant-related situation until recently.

 

There is no alternative:

 

1.You have to completely disengage yourself from the relationship to preserve your emotional equilibrium.

 

2. Work on yourself: The avoidant treated you like a lump of sputum. Why did you permit yourself to be treated so poorly?

 

Their condition does not excuse their behaviour. They’re feeling suffocated because you want to see them more than twice a month? Tough sh-t! Tell them to get a bottle of Lexapro, see a therapist, and get their crap together.

 

They cling to their condition like an alcoholic clings to a bottle.

 

I’ve had one or two really crappy relationships in the past, but in comparison with my experience with an avoidant, the memories of those old relationships are like a casual stroll through a village fete.

[dolorosa]

They’re feeling suffocated because you want to see them more than twice a month? Tough sh-t! Tell them to get a bottle of Lexapro, see a therapist, and get their crap together.

 

Love it.... I was told by my ex I was clingy.... I never used to call him because I hate talking on the phone and according to him I said I love you too many times (we only saw each other every other weekend, so how was that too many times I am not sure.

[kampuniform]

Not ideal relationship material:

 

link removed

 

"Individuals with AvPD can deal with their emotions only through avoidance, escape, and fantasy. When faced with unanticipated stress, they have few internal strengths available to them to manage the situation. Energy is misdirected to avoid rather than to adapt."

 

The name of the game should be to avoid an avoidant at all costs.

[Sim54]

I'd stay away from the DSM, it is utterly useless when it comes to real understanding of what is going on with people. The so called personality disorders are not measurable diseases but are merely a way for doctors to avoid dealing with the messy reality of damaged people, and is designed to clarify for the medical community, something that they have little understanding of. For every correct diagnosis of a symptom there are many misses as the truth is all people with so called personality disorders are simply suffering from emotional immaturity due to a failure on the part of their primary care givers to mirror and validate them when they were young. As such, there are almost as many 'disorders' as people, as each person has a unique although similar experience.

 

A close therapeutic relationship is the best cure for emotional immaturity, but doctors are loath to prescribe that as it costs a fortune, so instead they hand over pills and leave it at that. Not helpful.

[dolorosa]

Brilliant post Sim54..... exactly what i always believed!

[Sim54]

Thank you. I get tired of all this armchair psycho diagnosis. When I read up on these disorders I see that often they describe me, but then suddenly they are totally wrong. Seemingly I suffer form all of them. I have been terrible avoidant in some relationships, but then I got married once and fell heavily in love with another girl and invited her to live with me, and she abondoned me for another guy. Not very avoidant behaviour really!.

[dolorosa]

I totally agree, sometimes all these diagnosis are an easy way to accept wrong behaviours.

[GreenPolicy]

I think once you have been with an avoidant, you will see the warning signs and be able to notice them before your heart gets so involved. Unfortunately for me, my heart was involved too much and I still have some itty bitty hope he will change. such is life. I am more educated now though.

 

My ex told me very early on what her relationship history was and I chose to ignore that information under the naive notion that she had "just not met the right person yet." As I believe Tiger posted elsewhere in this thread, avoidants can come accross as engaged and invested just like a non-avoidant until their anxieties and fears are triggered. For my ex, that was getting engaged. In the future, when a woman tells me she has a very bad relationship with her biological father and she has never sustained a LTR, I will pay much more attention to that.

[Sim54]

It's far more important for you to understand why you found their behaviour so attractive and what your dysfunction is that is so attracted to these people. It doesn't matter that you 'didn't notice'. The fact is that dysfunction gives off subtle clues ALL the time. We are SUBCONSCIOUSLY attracted to a persons dysfunctions, and consciously to their positive traits. It is really fruitless to bang on about how messed up your partner was, as YOU chose them, so THERE is where your answers lie, in looking to YOURSELF, whom you are responsible for and have control over, and let go of blaming and pathologising your ex. It serves no purpose and doesn't lead to any real growth in oneself.

 

Ultimately, your partner is a reflection of yourself, so if they were creating a dysfunctional relationship, then SO WHERE YOU.

Until we get this fundamental principle of relationships, then we will simply fall for the same people over and over again, and also CREATE the same relationship over and over again.

 

This thread serves little useful purpose except as a venting and victim board for people who want to blame others and the world for their failed relationships, rather than taking some responsibility for themselves.

 

So stop pointing your fingers at others, as there are 10 pointing right back at you.

 

Peace.

[GreenPolicy]

It's far more important for you to understand why you found their behaviour so attractive and what your dysfunction is that is so attracted to these people. It doesn't matter that you 'didn't notice'. The fact is that dysfunction gives off subtle clues ALL the time. We are SUBCONSCIOUSLY attracted to a persons dysfunctions, and consciously to their positive traits. It is really fruitless to bang on about how messed up your partner was, as YOU chose them, so THERE is where your answers lie, in looking to YOURSELF, whom you are responsible for and have control over, and let go of blaming and pathologising your ex. It serves no purpose and doesn't lead to any real growth in oneself.

 

Who says I am not focusing on myself and trying to make better choices for myself? By bumping this thread, this means that I am not doing the work in my day to day life of trying to heal from this relationship and learn from it what I can? I've been in therapy, I've done 12 step meetings, I have done a lot of introspection and soul-searching trying to learn what I can do differently, what is healthy in a SO and what is not. Nobody is perfect. I made mistakes; I didn't always say the right thing, sometimes I got on her nerves. But that's the case with anybody you spend enough time with.

 

It doesn't matter that you 'didn't notice'....Ultimately, your partner is a reflection of yourself, so if they were creating a dysfunctional relationship, then SO WHERE YOU.

 

When I am in a relationship, I am responsible for 50 percent of the upkeep, maintenance and nourishment of that relationship. But the demise of a relationship? I'm sorry if you take umbrage at the idea that it's not always 50/50. It really depends on the people involved, it's not always something that can be neatly divvied up in half. It's not "blaming" or casting unfair judgment to say that the end of a failed relationship is mainly on the person who overpromised and underdelivered on her commitments when I was doing the same things I had throughout. I didn't cheat, I didn't abuse her, I didn't lose interest in her sexually, I didn't substitute going out and doing novel and exciting things together for sitting at home on the couch drinking beer and playing video games. Nor did I terrorize her with 500 texts/emails/calls a day and not give her space to breathe. Up until the end she had no problem letting me think we were on the same page.

 

You said yourself that certain kinds of dysfunction subtly reveals itself. So it damn well matters that I didn't notice certain things. I would like to learn what to look for so I don't attract the same kind of person as my ex into my life again. How is that crying "Woe is me?" and blaming her? Her approach to life and relationships is simply incompatible with mine, and that's a lesson I learned far too late. That's when I learned what incompatibility really means. I always thought compatibility only referred to having similar interests, goals, values, getting along and having good chemistry, etc. It refers to so much more.

 

 

 

 

This thread serves little useful purpose except as a venting and victim board for people who want to blame others and the world for their failed relationships, rather than taking some responsibility for themselves.

 

It also serves the purpose of people sharing their stories and gaining encouragement and strength from each other. I have no interest in recounting my story for the sole purpose of nurturing martyr status. I've learned a lot from this thread. It has helped me step outside the emotional part of my brain and analyze my relationship more objectively so I can see what was mine and that I need to take ownership of and what was hers and I don't need to self blame for.

[banal]

Seriously, dude. Relationships end for a variety of reasons, but sometimes it's almost the exclusive fault of one person.

[Sim54]

Good.

I'm glad to hear it. I wasn't speaking expressly to you, only the general feeling of this thread in pointing the finger at others.

It is simply fruitful for an hour or a day, but not more.

 

It mainly being the fault of one or the other is irrelevant, it is almost impossible for it to be only one person who wrecks it. By nature, a relationship is a dynamic between two people, and if one starts to mess up and the other joins in, then you are both responsible. But this is all moot. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. It simply doesn't matter. All that matters is what we do with the situation we find ourselves in. Do we behave wisely or foolishly, win win, or win lose?

 

I have been bad to some of my ex's, and i've been treated bad by some, and in the end, I see that all roads lead back to me, and the choices I am making. What they did is their business, but what I put up with is mine or what i did to others is mine.

 

I don't think we're on different pages, but i get tired of all this pathologising of people by others who are not trained to diagnose illness.

 

It is comforting to believe that it isn't 50/50, and to be honest i never said it was. Usually one IS more culpable, but again, it doesn't really matter.

 

We all feel hurt for a while after a break up, but in the end, if you let go of anger and blame you come to see that it doesn't matter. People are usually doing the best they can at that moment, and even it that falls short of what we want, it's again fruitless in the long run to get hung up on that.

 

Our energy is always better spent focusing on what we do and did, and leave others to deal with their lives.

 

I'm not saying that I have achieved this. Not by a long shot, but this thread saddens me. It seems to only encourage people to look outside them selves for the source of their pain, when it is within.

 

I certainly didn't mean any offence.

[bungalo]

I have been bad to some of my ex's, and i've been treated bad by some, and in the end, I see that all roads lead back to me, and the choices I am making. What they did is their business, but what I put up with is mine or what i did to others is mine.

 

I don't think we're on different pages, but i get tired of all this pathologising of people by others who are not trained to diagnose illness.

 

It is comforting to believe that it isn't 50/50, and to be honest i never said it was. Usually one IS more culpable, but again, it doesn't really matter.

 

We all feel hurt for a while after a break up, but in the end, if you let go of anger and blame you come to see that it doesn't matter. People are usually doing the best they can at that moment, and even it that falls short of what we want, it's again fruitless in the long run to get hung up on that.

 

Our energy is always better spent focusing on what we do and did, and leave others to deal with their lives.

 

I'm not saying that I have achieved this. Not by a long shot, but this thread saddens me. It seems to only encourage people to look outside them selves for the source of their pain, when it is within.

 

I certainly didn't mean any offence.

 

amen

[nchenry]

She discarded me like a piece of garbage, and abandoned me when I needed her the most after what happened with my dad. It's not normal to so quickly go from "I love you, I want to marry you, you're the best I've ever had" (and mean it) to wanting me out of your life. The whole thing has been a huge mindf*ck. Five months on I feel a little better, but I'm still hurting a lot.

 

I just read Green Policy's story, and pretty much change the ages, a couple of dates, and that's me and my ex. The biggest mindfu** ever, as it came right out of the blue. Having a normal conversation, she'd not been sleeping, she mentioned that, then in passing "and then I realized the problem was us", and then carried on talking about something else.

 

"Hold on, stop. What did you just say?"

 

We spent a month getting to the bottom of the problem, basically she agreed in the end it was 'fear' that kept her from moving forward (literally, I went from 'wedding vows' to 'like a brother not a lover' to 'wash my hands of us' in 2 weeks) and we agreed to have no contact for a month, but when we said good bye we both agreed it was to grieve what was so we could move forward, no fear.

 

I had an email from her a month later, and I've never felt anything so cold and distant. She even said, after 3 years, she had nothing to say to me.

 

Her family was stunned, but then it was her father that left, her mother that was alcoholic, leaving her to essentially be mother to her younger brothers. Only an aunt, who is really secure, was able to say anything.

 

And me? It just........ in the aftermath of course, I've tried to work out what it was. I know absolutely I brought ONLY good things to her and her son's lives. The jerks she's dated in the past were all emotionally unavailable tards, and the friend-with-benefits that lasted for years, no better. She would always say how this relationship was the best she'd ever had, and suddenly poof. I think I just have been trying to make sense of it all, and I KNOW it's not me, absolutely. No ego trip, I just know who I am (36, PhD, smart, handsome, funny, have my sh*t together emotionally, and suddenly single). It still hits me at the oddest times, but I did write to her, with as much grace as I could muster, simply because someone needed to tell her the truth: that this breakup was not about 'energy' but Fear, and that she would come back to this place again and again and again, with different people, but be faced with the same choices. I told her it was frustrating to see, because I only ever wanted her to be happy and have the relationship she really DOES long for. She wants connection, but sabotaged it.

 

I let her go, because I really believe - the naff bit of me, not the rational scientist bit - that love is stronger than fear. I love her, I showed her unconditional love, and even though I am no longer part of her life, I will always love her, but I believe letting go is to allow someone to face the consequences of their actions, even if it hurts to watch them. I only wanted to spare her the grief of needing to repeat this endless cycle she's in.

 

I still believe that one day - I am under no illusions it will be with me, mind you - that love will win the ultimate victory in her life. I see this cycle.... her son's dad walked out on them, and she pines for another avoidant, fantasizing that life with him would be what she wants (and she admits she wants real emotional connection, but maddeningly, when she had it, she suddenly took a baseball bat to it). It hurts, but I take solace in the fact I know absolutely it wasn't me, but I want to save her more heartache. Isnt' that what love really is?

[Tired Tiger]

Hey nchenry. Welcome to eNA. I, too, would like to believe that love could be stronger than fear, but reality has often proven otherwise.

 

As a bit of interesting reading not entirely unrelated to the thread theme...

 

link removed

 

If nothing else, it's a great example of understanding and compassion.

[GreenPolicy]

I don't think we're on different pages, but i get tired of all this pathologising of people by others who are not trained to diagnose illness.

 

I am not qualified to put a label on my ex. While I firmly believe that something was and is amiss with her to walk away from a man that was good to her and good for her, fixating on her and her issues is not helpful for my recovery. I can blame her for hurting and letting me down if I want, but ultimately is is my choice as to whether or not I will continue to insist on getting my expectations met when she has made it clear that she cannot and will not fulfill those wishes.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying that I have achieved this. Not by a long shot, but this thread saddens me. It seems to only encourage people to look outside them selves for the source of their pain, when it is within.

 

I certainly didn't mean any offence.

 

The way I see it, our exes led us to this well. It is up to us as to whether or not we continue to drink from it. We are the source of our pain if we continue to do so.

[Sim54]

I am not qualified to put a label on my ex. While I firmly believe that something was and is amiss with her to walk away from a man that was good to her and good for her, fixating on her and her issues is not helpful for my recovery. I can blame her for hurting and letting me down if I want, but ultimately is is my choice as to whether or not I will continue to insist on getting my expectations met when she has made it clear that she cannot and will not fulfill those wishes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way I see it, our exes led us to this well. It is up to us as to whether or not we continue to drink from it. We are the source of our pain if we continue to do so.

 

I agree with all of that.

[Benville]

The original post describes my ex to a T, but I'm wondering where I fit into it.

 

I fit some of the descriptions, about half, but not the rest. What's the definition of the other kind, the Love Anxious person?

 

I'm with Sim. It's not a case of simply labelling your ex. If you want to truly understand a situation you have to understand yourself as well, and that's where I am now - trying to understand me, and why I found her so attractive being the way she is.