Avoidant Love vs. Secure/Anxious Love

[Sim54]

90-hour-sleep.

 

What a great post. You say it better than me, but then, i've just been reacting quite aggressively to previous posts.

 

Ultimately, polarizing yourself against others doesn't foster understanding, and 'naming' disorders so harshly doesn't really help. The medical community is obsessed with names and boxes, but through my therapy, i've come to see that most mental disorders stem from the same place, and in fact are all varying shades of grey from insufficient parenting and childhood trauma.

 

Utlimately, the more we are able to heal our own insecurities, and build confidence and self esteem, the better able we'll be to gravitate to more healthy partners and to handle the troubles that may come our way in relationships and life in general.

 

For me, it all boils down to emotional maturity, which is something that many people lack. I discovered recently that at 39 years old, I was emotionally about 4! haha. My ex was the same. I've gone some way of growing up recently.

 

I read somewhere that emotional maturity is being able to express the right emotion to the right person at the right time. I like that.

[Sim54]

It was me who said that. the two different styles are simply different response to the same problem pretty much, and in fact, it appears that avoidant behaviour is most male (although not always) and anxious is female. It seems to have something to do with the added need for males to go through initiation into male-hood and to separate cleanly from the mothers, something women don't need, as they stay in the female sphere from birth, whilst men start there and need to move to the male one later on.

 

I two swing between being anxious and clingy with some people, and more avoidant with others, so totally agree with your post.

 

There is a great book called 'Anxious to please: seven revolutionary practises for the chronically nice' that is well worth searching out and reading. It has some great advice about healing this kind of stuff.

[Blue4now]

No offence Lonewig but you do seem to be demonizing avoidants because of what went down in your relationship. I know everyone is claiming that an avoidant is just what they are and will damage you no matter what so "don't play" - but what if there is some truth to their defence of their position, that really they just didn't love you enough (but might be able to love someone else)? Its a hard pill to swallow so I can see why there is more appeal in casting labels.

 

That's an opinion, but, in many cases there is a consistent pattern of emotional unavailability (or whatever label du jour) that permeates all of their relationships. That was definitely the case with my ex. He's never been able to get really close to anyone, emotionally. He revealed to me that his marriage ended because his wife couldn't handle that "he couldn't access his emotions", and give and receive intimacy properly. So, yeah, I guess there are varying degrees with this as with anything. Maybe Lonewing was with one of the more extreme cases (as was I). In those extreme cases, they will try very hard, knowing something is wrong (as my ex did) with them, but they are just "flat" emotionally, and can't get there. Only the most tolerant will stick around. If put into proper perspective, labels can be extremely helpful. That's why the phychological and medical professions (among others) use them. Sometimes when it walks and talks like a duck....it's....a duck.

[Sim54]

I disagree that they are 'flat' emotionally. In fact, you will find people like that tend to have quite extreme emotions. It's often because of this that they tend to screen off their emotions. It's not that they don't have them, it's just that they are scary to them. Most 'avoidants' grew up believing that being vulnerable was a very dangerous thing. They were smothered, used, shouted at, hit, abused and generally treated like sh*t. In the end, you learn to suppress your feelings so as to not draw attention to yourself and eventually, you can't access your vulnerability, and therefore find love and intimacy very difficult. I felt almost nothing when my ex fell pregnant, and subsequently aborted. I cried like a baby about it a year later. I was horrified that I hadn't been able to access anything at the time, but I remember that I was so afraid of that baby, that I shut down, and went on auto pilot.

 

The problem with the medical community is they aren't really interested in psychology as they can't measure it or see it under a microscope, so they come up with loads of names for stuff which makes them look like they know what they're talking about, but which ultimately doesn't help the afflicted much. Someone who is already feeling low and depressed, un loved and un loveable doesn't really benefit from being told they are borderline, or avoidant, or what ever.

 

My therapist is a Jungian analyst, and he never uses such terms. The best he would probably come up with would be to describe someone as having had poor mirroring as a child and having suffered emotional neglect, and from there he would start to give his patient the love and care and attention he lacked as a child, so allowing healing to take place.

 

The medical community is obsessed with drugs, and believes that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. They refuse to understand that perhaps the chemical imbalance is caused by the depression! This is a debate that could rage and rage, but I'm only interested in solutions, not labels and blaming. If someone has a problem, then helping them find a solution in a loving fashion is the best way. Blaming, labelling, finger pointing, projecting, and general negativity never helped anyone feel better.

[mad rabbits]

Simbad, I think you make some really interesting points. Particularly about how men tend towards avoidant because of their gender socialisation (needed to split from the mother)

 

Do you think more women are becoming avoidant these days due to the cultural and social pressures emphasising "self" now increasingly cutting both ways (if you get my drift)?

[Sim54]

badhabits, that's an interesting question. i would say not, because the seeds of attachment behaviours are sown in infancy, in the first 2 years or so of life, so it isn't really a cultural thing but a nurture/nature thing. But that could play a part. There must be so many factors involved in making people behave how they do. I have notice a lot more women seem to be commitment phobic now. Perhaps that is a social thing, that now women are freer to choose their life path, they don't feel the pressure to stay in relationships. I couldn't speculate.

 

I saw an interesting program about the role fathers play in socialising their daughters. Apparently girls who have bad or non existent relationships with their fathers start their periods early, start have sex early, and tend to get pregnant earlier than girls with better fathers. They also age quicker. Can you believe that?! Their very biology changes. The theory is that they mature faster so they can find another male to take care of them, as their father is absent. So after years of single mothers getting the blame for not being able to control their daughters it turns out that is the male's fault that there are so many teenage pregnancies.

 

That doesn't really answer your question I'm afraid! But girls who have absent fathers seem less able to form secure and strong healthy relationships later in life. Perhaps the break down of the family unit has more to do with the rise in avoidant women?

[mad rabbits]

Perhaps the break down of the family unit has more to do with the rise in avoidant women?

 

Yes, I wonder this too.

 

When I contemplate how I got to this point, I have to say some of it started with my absent father. He was there physically (for a while) but he was indifferent to me. This was then a template that was set up for me for what I can expect from males in life.

 

I spent my twenties trying to get the love I was denied through men woefully ill-equipped to give it. Obviously with bad results. Now I have come to an emotional place where I just write love off as a bad investment. That's how I became avoidant. For a time I tried to be attracted to men who were more available but they tended to swing to far the other way, and their clinginess terrified me.

 

I feel like whether a guy is aloof and indifferent, or seems really into a commitment with me, it boils down to the same thing - they aren't interested in me at all, they just want to get their own needs met, whether sexual, financial, or emotional...and I can't be bothered with that sh*t. Yes - I equate love with being drained, manipulated and used.

 

All of that probably sounds really sad. The kicker is that all the time I spent in my twenties grasping for love I was neglecting myself and my own development, my creative development in particular... so now I'm playing catch up. Just becoming me and growing comfortably into my skin now has become my priority. I may never be ready for a partner. I kind of did things backwards... but if that's how it was meant to be then that's how it was meant to be. It isn't in everyone's personal development plan to end up with a partner.

[Sim54]

In the end, you are swinging between two extremes, either grasping for love (needy, controlling, fear based), which has you leaning into someone too much and forces them to lean away, or you are leaning way back (cold, avoidant, fear based) and making needy people chase you. I know, i do the same, but there IS a third way, and that is to stand up straight emotionally and neither lean in or away. By holding yourself emotionally still, you will attract someone who does the same. To get to that stillmess you need to make friends with both your avoidant fear and your clingy fear. They are simply aspects of your wounded self, the child your father ignored, who is still crying out for love and tenderness. I absolutely recommend you get a good therapist. In fact, it's pretty much the only way you're going to heal. I started seeing one a year ago, and it's changing my life. If you think it's expensive, well, it is, but once you get it, you will do anything to keep it.

 

For me, my therapy sits up the top of my needs list just under food, air and shelter!

You CAN heal, and you can give and receive love, but it's gonna take work. The sooner you get to it the better, and in a year or two, things will start to really change for you.

 

Make your first real commitment in life a commitment to yourself, to loving yourself, healing yourself and growing and maturing.

[mad rabbits]

Thanks Simbad, yeah I have been thinking about trying therapy - again! I have done it before but I think it didn't work because either the therapist wasn't the right one or I couldn't really open up to the process. It felt like it put too many things I take for granted at risk... does that make sense??

 

The last two guys I was with (in a real relationship sense, not a casual thing) were ready for something serious with me but I dumped them for being clingy. I didn't like hurting them either so for now I am not dating. Not engaging in anything casual either for a different set of reasons. This period of quiet is probably a good time to talk to someone.

[Tired Tiger]

Thanks for answering my question, Sim. I'd like to think that the loss of a significant relationship would be motivation enough to want to change, but that's not always the case. Leave it to me to find a woman runner (in spite of the statistics). She had strict, judgemental parents (that's putting it nicely), and has carried the side effects of that with her into all her relationships through adulthood. She's been married twice, and will freely admit that she married both with the conscious knowledge that she wasn't in love with either of them - the concept being if you're not in love, you can't get hurt. She claims I'm the only man she's been in love with in her adult life, yet shuts down and runs without there being any significant or identifiable dysfunction between us. Three times now.

 

To be fair, though - yes, I've had to look at my own roles in this, and consciously adjust my own behavior in terms of passive/anxious traits. In my case, the motivation was definitely a by-product of the break up(s). I suppose that remains to be seen for her.

 

Interesting topic.

[bungalo]

very interesting article...gives me hope....a good read

 

link removed

[Live-N-Learn]

I just finished a book called "Abandonment to Healing" it explains a lot of the factors behind why I chose to be with a woman that was emotionally unavailable. I remember when the relationship was good, well as good as it ever could get, I was not even sure I wanted to be there. However, when she started pulling away I would feel this incredible surge of anxious aliveness. I started to obsess and all the sudden I could not live without her.

 

I have come to realize that even when things were good between us she never was able to share her feelings. That most of her previous relationships lasted less than 2 months. I was her third longest. She would tell me things like she was afraid of being in a relationship because she the thought of getting bored terrified her. After we broke up I chased her for a year. During that time we played the push pull game the whole time. However, she really never opened up. She slept with 10 other men over that years time along with me about 15 times. I found out she was actually sleeping with 3 of us at the same time for a month.

 

She always seemed to need attention and affirmation from men. She had very few girlfriends if any and all her guy friends were men she had slept with that she would stay in contact with. She had horrible boundaries and would actually text 2 or 3 of us and let us know what club she was going to and seemed to enjoy having all of us there at the same time. More than once had she told me she hated her life, she drank too much, was lonely and hated her job. I even remember one time she was really down saying all I am put here on the earth for is to be a receptical for men, I guess I will just have to accept my lot in life.

 

Most of this came out after the breakup but what I have now realized is that I am pretty messed up myself and this girl triggers me. I am not interested in ever speaking to her again and am taking time to work on myself so that I can have a healthy relationship someday. I do not know or care to label her, all I know is she is bad for me. I want to be with someone I can communication with and can share their feelings. Although I see that I am drawn to the kind of women that are closed off and will most likely leave me, I just want to be aware of it and try to not pick them going forward.

 

I really don't know if she will be successful in relationships in the future or not. I was told she is in one now and has stopped sleeping with multiple men. All I know is she left me and many others broken by her actions. I will now use it for my good. I don't blame it on her I allowed it to happen.

[mad rabbits]

Although I see that I am drawn to the kind of women that are closed off and will most likely leave me, I just want to be aware of it and try to not pick them going forward.

 

LNL, I got to this point a while back. I decided I was going to consciously avoid distant and aloof men and date guys who were really into me. Much to my dismay I found I couldn't be attracted to those guys. However I suspect they were too far at the other end of the spectrum - rather codependent.

 

So I'm not sure where to go now. I'm not dating for the time being.

 

Not wanting to rain on your parade, just wanted to share my experience after having the same realisation you did. I think knowing what you don't want is the first step, but unfortunately its after that the real work seems to begin...and I'm wondering if its work that might last a lifetime!

[bungalo]

The allure of the distant, aloof lover is very strong. I believe this is the case with men and women because we value those people who challenge us...if its too easy, we tend to discount it. Where it gets sticky for me is when you get very strong messages that the person is into you, and you feel relaxed and fulfilled...but in short order, they pull away from you..and you feel abandoned and helpless.

[mad rabbits]

The allure of the distant, aloof lover is very strong. I believe this is the case with men and women because we value those people who challenge us...if its too easy, we tend to discount it. Where it gets sticky for me is when you get very strong messages that the person is into you, and you feel relaxed and fulfilled...but in short order, they pull away from you..and you feel abandoned and helpless.

 

Yeah I very much get where you are coming from. I think it's true that we don't value what comes easy.

 

But if we tend to pull away when someone is very available and into us...what does it mean in the cases where we felt happy and fulfilled when we were getting the same message from someone who ended up leaving?

 

Does that mean we were subconsciously picking up signals of our imminent abandonment even when we felt happy and fulfilled?

 

That's a sad thought.. lol!

[Live-N-Learn]

I think there is a balance. Let me explain. I dated a girl a few weeks ago and slept with her. The next day she ask me to be in a relationship with her. I said look...I don't even know you, slow down. Well she kept pushing and I realized she was needy and too aggressive with more issues than me. I went out with another girl this week that was really cool. Neither of us were rushing things and it was a lot of fun. So my point is...too fast is not good but there is a balance where we can feel wanted and still be connected to another healthy person. That is the one I am looking for. I want to feel safe and confident they like me but no needy.

[kuteknish]

I just finished a book called "Abandonment to Healing" it explains a lot of the factors behind why I chose to be with a woman that was emotionally unavailable.

 

So in speaking of you, rather than her, what were the factors of why you chose to be with someone who was 'emotionally unavailable' ?

[Live-N-Learn]

So in speaking of you, rather than her, what were the factors of why you chose to be with someone who was 'emotionally unavailable' ?

 

I simply did not know that was the case. I just thought she was a quite person that kept her thoughts to herself. We had a lot of fun together but really did not have many deep conversations. However, once she broke up with me and I tried to communicate with her as to why and pull out her feelings and thoughts, I quickly learned she could not or would not share them. This set off a bunch of triggers within me. The more she pulled away, fed me bread crumbs the more the fear of abandonment heightened and the harder I tried to get her back. It was a viscous cycle that went on for a year post BU. She gave me just enough to keep me around but never satisfied my need for commitment.

 

The book explained that it was common for people like myself who had been abandoned as a child or who had suffered many losses to confuse these anxious feelings as feelings of love. So I tried even harder to get her back because I thought I really loved her when in reality I was trying to repair my past losses.I guess subconsciously I thought if I could get her back it would fix all my past abandonment. The reality was that there was no way that was going to happen because I picked a person incapable of commitment. I now understand that I need someone who will be open with there feelings, can communicate and will commit.

 

I may battle this all my life because I may not feel that high rush I seem to get sub consciously from these kinda of women. But next time I feel that I will pay attention and know that is means trouble.

[Sim54]

Live-n-learn, I would probably need way more info to be able to see what was really going on with you, but someone isn't instantly an emotionally unavailable person because she withdrew AFTER the breakup. That is just normal. She pulled away because it was over. She didn't open up because it was over. Your anxious response to the breakup is ALL about you, and nothing to do with her. The fact that she stayed in contact with you, or allowed you to keep contacting her played a part, but your anxiousness is yours.

 

I'm not saying she wasn't part of the dynamic, but it would be helpful to know how long you were together and whether you bonded or not. I'm guessing that seeing as you are an anxious person, that would have driven her away during the RS. It's important to understand something about anxiety. It makes the anxious person emotionally unavailable too.

 

Let me restate that: If you suffer from anxiety and fear of abandonment, then you are emotionally unavailable.

 

How so? Well, during a relationship, anxiety will basically colour everything you do. Anxious people are usually hyper aware of the dynamic of the relationship, and are always on the look out for signs of love, or signs of love being removed. It colours everything, and therefore it informs almost all your actions. Every gift of love, or generous act actually is precipitated not from love but from FEAR. It means that all the 'love' you give isn't really love, and often isn't about the other person, but is about your self and quelling your anxiety.

 

A much as you want a person who is available and into commitment, you would do better to concentrate on healing yourself as the best step you can take for a healthier relationship, rather than asking the world to change for you. In any case, you attract, and are attracted to people because of your anxiety, so to attract and be attracted to someone healthier YOU must become healthier. Then it will just happen.

 

I thoroughly recommend you seek help to heal your wounded heart. And try this great book: Anxious to Please: 7 revolutionary practises for the chronically nice.

 

Peace.

[kuteknish]

She pulled away because it was over. She didn't open up because it was over.

I slightly disagree with this part. If someone is fearful to get close to someone, they won't open up to them, regardless if it is over or not, this is extremely challenging for them and an avoidant would choose the path of keeping you at arm's length rather than embrace that challenge, so to speak.

 

Well, during a relationship, anxiety will basically colour everything you do. Anxious people are usually hyper aware of the dynamic of the relationship, and are always on the look out for signs of love, or signs of love being removed. It colours everything, and therefore it informs almost all your actions. Every gift of love, or generous act actually is precipitated not from love but from FEAR. It means that all the 'love' you give isn't really love, and often isn't about the other person, but is about your self and quelling your anxiety.

this kind of made me sad this morning because as much as I believe what I just wrote above.. about the avoidant person in the relationship, this made me sad because I remember looking for signs and dwelling on them. My ex started to feel that he would just never make me happy because I was constantly feeling like he didn't want to truly be with me... BUT all he had to say to quell my fears was something calm like "I want to be here, stop thinking the way you do. I want to be here" or something of the like.. instead, he was scared to say anything but "yes" or something that wasn't enough for me to hear to quell that fear. I became more anxious because he became more avoidant and the cycle kept going. It wasn't that it was "over"..

[Sim54]

Kuteknish, I only said what I said above because the poster basically only talked about what happened in the year after the relationship, when peoples behaviour is always weird. He said that during the RS, they didn't have deep conversations, which to me doesn't equal avoidant. I'm not saying his ex wasn't avoidant, only that the info he gave wasn't enough to go by. The fact she withdrew after the breakup is simply normal.

 

I'm sorry I made you sad, but you know, as has been said many times here, it matters little what the other person does, and matters much more what you respond, and why you're there. I'd like to believe that if your ex had told you he wanted to be with you that your anxiety would have gone away. Is that REALLY true? Was he really TOTALLY responsible for 'making' you feel like that? Have you ever felt anxious before with a partner? Is this a pattern. If it's only ever happened to you with him and you've had secure safe relationships before, then perhaps it was just your RS with him, but if not, then the cause lies with you and your issues rather than him.

 

I think at the bottom of this lies a basic understanding of relationships. We are not responsible for another's feelings and behaviour, BUT our behaviour has an impact on those we are close to, so we must take care how we engage with them. So, it's not black and white. If I am cold and indifferent with my girl, she will feel hurt, and I must be careful to communicate where I'm at so she understands why I am being like that. Maybe I'm sad and need to be alone, maybe I'm scared or upset, maybe she is being too pushy and anxious and pressing my smothering button, etc. In the end, clear and honest communication, the ability to speak your mind and heart, and also HEAR the others mind and heart is what is needed.

 

Don't be sad! It's all good. Out of loss, comes the chance to change and grow!

I don't doubt for one second that your relationship caused you a lot of hurt and sadness and pain, and I'm sure that your ex's behaviour was confusing and painful to deal with. If he was/is a good guy then you can rest assured that he isn't happy to be like this at all, and secretly craves closeness and intimacy. He just finds it very hard.

 

I hope you have a good day!

[bungalo]

I thought I would pick up the thread here, for what its worth...

 

For me personally, and I suspect this is pretty universal, if you were truly in love with your ex, and you spent a significant amount of time together, TIME seems to be the only thing that helps. Outwardly, I look better and unaffected after 10 months apart from my ex, inwardly the pain is still there, the loss hasn't diminished over time, but that panicky, spinning out of control feeling is gone, replaced by a muted ache I suppose. In my case, the breakup just still seems senseless. We've had lots of NC, only one real post breakup face to face, and it was a disaster because I was a mess. Subsequently, I've bumped into her, and the interactions have gotten increasingly more comfortable. When I say senseless, I mean that it is so obvious when we talk by phone, or in person that the chemistry/connection/rapport hasn't gone away..in fact it seems stronger than ever. I set up a catch up dinner in early April, promptly got sick via email (yes mind/body connection acknowledged) She replied that she understood...and here I am a month later..called last night to reschedule our get together, got her machine...left a message...not a word yet..but its early...She is clearly avoidant and self-possessed. I know now that I have done everything I can do to try to rekindle things, and its definitely in her court now...Mood-wise, I'm quite well. I made a mental decision NOT TO LET THIS DRAG ME DOWN.

[GreenPolicy]

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being an avoidant as long as you are honest about what you are capable of in a relationship and what you are not, and what your expectations are. A jilted lover has every right to be angry with an avoidant who overpromises and underdelivers on commitments.

[GreenPolicy]

To the avoidant, they may "love" the other person, but are very afraid of what that feeling represents: commitment & liability & pressure. ... So they run away.

 

Avoidants are basically the first cousins of BPDs and they share some Cluster B traits with borderlines. Essentially they can stay engaged in a relationship and be invested as long as their fears and anxieties aren't triggered. Once that happens, that's when they initiate the push-pull and sabotage it. Like borderlines, they have a fear of abandonment and engulfment that gets triggered whenever they feel themselves really binding to another person and intimacy starts to develop. They associate intimacy with pain and fear. Also like borderlines, they are extremely thin-skinned emotionally and the kind of love that they are capable of is immature, the way a child loves, where "I love you" largely means "I desperately need you to love me." So it is not a mature form of love, but it is real love, nonetheless. Also like borderlines, they tend to suffer from feelings of low self esteem and have difficulties opening up and trusting their partners. Another similarity they share with borderlines is that they tend to be selfish and self-centered in their relationships. They may realize that they are hurting you or their behavior is extremely hurtful, but that takes a backseat to their psychic need to retreat to safety. What secure attachers would consider "taking the next logical step" in a committed relationship, or ordinary relationship behaviors, is emotionally suffocating to them when the walls and boundaries they've put up are eventually breached.

 

Where they differ from borderlines is that they are usually more self aware of their issues, they don't engage in dichotomous black/white thinking, they don't paint their exes black unless the behavior warrants it, and while they suffer from feelings of low self esteem like borderlines, they are super critical of themselves and don't project their failures and insecurities onto their partners the way borderlines do.

[Sim54]

Green policy, your description above also pretty much applies to anxiously attached people as well, but without the chronic fear of engulfment that the avoidant has.