Avoidant Love vs. Secure/Anxious Love

[Lonewing]

The problem is, an avoidant isn't always readily identified. If they were, this would all be easy because nobody would be dating the avoidants. Avoidants may very well lie to themselves about their own true nature, and thus fluctuate from appearing something besides what they are. It may only be after a couple cycles of relationship issues [and most every relaitonship has them] to finally uncover the full reality of the avoidant, or just how big the cancer actually is. In such cases,the more experience the secure has, the quicker and easier it is to identify the avoidant and to then AVOID the avoidant! [but you would say this Secure is clearly Avoidant, because they are not taking responsibility for their own behavior, and instead blaming it on their [rightfully so] avoidant partner!]

 

It takes two to make a relationship but it only takes one to end it. Every Divorce Attorney knows this.

 

No matter HOW HARD one person works, if the other person is "not there," aka emotionally unavailable, or any other form of avoidant, there is literally nothing that can be done by any external power to save that relationship.

 

Avoidants are not just shut out to the Anxious, they're shut out to EVERYONE. The only person who can change an avoidant is the avoidant itself, and only by internal epiphany followed by an honest effort to not be avoidant any more. Otherwise, the most honest wholesome route for such people are unattached non-monogamous relationships, longterm bachelordom, and in short, independent hermitism.

[journeynow]

Tis true; an avoidant will make even a Secure shift towards Anxiousness. But a secure can also bring an anxious back up to secure.

 

I think the main point here is, you can build something if both people are committed to it, but it only takes one to ruin it, and the avoidant is the one who refuses to work together on the relationship.

 

I tend to agree. I think some of us might cycle through through these, at times both partners are secure, and at other times shift toward avoidance or anxiousness. It falls apart when one becomes too extreme or too long away from secure.

[stroltz]

Hello everyone!! (first of all sorry for my english)

 

What a fascinating thread! I've found it incredibly interesting because I've been living the same situation as some of the posters for almost 1 year now. I am in a very dysfunctional relationship with an extremely avoidant girl. On the other hand, I have become extremely anxious. I don't actually know whether I would be anxious in all relationships because this is my first girl. My girlfriend is totally unresponsive to my needs, in fact the more I ask from her, the less I receive. When we have arguments I ask her to show a bit more that the relationship is important to her, and she assumes a very DEFFENSIVE position, almost in a MEAN kind of way, answering only short words like "yes", "ok"... and even saying things that no boyfriend/girlfriend should ever hear, only to regret them aftwerwards (although she's totally unable to apologize or compensate me). Basically, I am in a position where the more we talk about us, the more I am attacked, bullied and mistreated and the more insecure I get... thus, I have even more need to confront her... it's a vicious cycle. She's totally UNABLE to talk about feelings and these kinds of conversations even disgust her.

 

Basically, everything in our relationship is a problem, even sex: she sees sex as a functional act rather than an emotional one. In other words, she does it because she has to and more often than not I felt like I was having sex with someone who was doing me a favour. It's too much suffering.

 

I have to disagree with some of the posters when they say that the ANXIOUS person is unable to change. I HAVE changed, we don't have arguments anymore because I've learned to lower my expectations and be ok with random and trivial conversations about "how are you?", "what have you done" and whatnot (IMPORTANT: we have a distance relationship based on everyday skyping). I'm trying very hard that our skype conversations are a source of fun and relaxation to her rather than an obligation and source of stress, and for the past month I've succeeded in doing so.

 

I also read some of you saying that the ANXIOUS person cannot realize that both have their issues. I know that I'm not normal either, that I should be more secure and have a more relaxed and healthier concept of relationship. I've been in therapy to try and free my mind from all the things bothering me. The problem is I am the only one realizing I have a problem and trying to change. She doesn't do anything (she says that she can't change but I actually believe she doesn't want to!).

 

I've found this thread very interesting but I honestly I haven't found some answers that I was looking for (SEE BELOW):

 

1- So far I've only heard messages of "give up", "run away". Is there SOMEONE out there who was able to save the relationship and live happy in it? In other words, is it possible for both people to be happy in a avoidant+anxious relationship? AND HOW?

2- How should I make someone like her, who is totally unaware of her own issues and thinks I am the only source of conflict in the relationship, realize that she needs help?

3- What turns on avoidant people?? that we play their games and set a distance? Do they get more attracted? SHOULD WE PLAY THESE KIND OF GAMES?

4- Should I talk about all this dynamics of attachment with her to try and let her know that we both have problems?

 

I genuinely think that this girl likes me but is unable/affraid to show it. She has a very distant relationship with her parents and family: she never kissed her parents or told them that she likes them (and the other way around). She stays weeks without talking to her parents, and when she does it's only about trivial things, asking favours, etc. So I think the reason for her to be like that is because she never received any form of affection as a child, thus she never learned how to react to it and even AVOIDS IT!.

 

Thanks for your insights and help!

 

Best regards

[jlewand]

Sim54 simply has no clue. And it's obvious why.

 

Which of the 4 attachment styles COUNTERS (suppresses, defensive exclusion OF attachment itself) the innate programming in their limbic system? Hint: it's not the secure or the preoccupied. Yet, Sim54 seems to think that avoidants are on par with preoccupieds. *slow blink*

 

So misguided as to be dangerous.

 

Read ALL those studies that has been done showing avoidants prune incoming attachment information before it even gets stored. Read ALL those studies that show how distorted their view of anything attachment-related is. To be clear, the saddest thing I've ever seen is an avoidant flail about attempting a relationship. The hurt they have suffered during their early childhood is incomprehensible. But, they are not "honoring" their original limbic programming. They hurt others exactly as they have been hurt in childhood. Conversely, preoccupieds don't hurt anyone.

[wilyone 11]

jlewand,

 

I would love to read some of the studies, do you have links? I read "Attachment" a few months ago and thought it was brilliant. It completely explained my boyfriend's behavior. I was totally "secure" with my ex of 15 years but with this guy I feel very anxious because he is always distancing himself, breaking dates, etc., even though he says he will always love me. I love him deeply as well and want our relationship to work but I often don't know how to deal with the anxiety he causes in me (I don't pursue him or make any demands, it seems that just feeling close to me is enough to make him bolt).

 

Thanks.

[Silverbirch]

I have been in a "relationship" with an avoidant person for 20 months now. He fully agrees that he is very much an "avoidant personality". We do talk about it - but not at length. Often also if it's brought up in passing, there will be some laughing on both sides -even though we both know it isn't really a laughing matter.

 

He has opened up a lot to me over that period of time. Says I'm his best friend and a lot more. Yes, definitely I agree that if a person chooses to stay with another person who is avoidant, you need to change your expectations. For most of us, being with an avoidant type might bring periods of loneliness. I think that such a relationship could only be sustained when the other person has enough other people who they are close to for companionship and have activiities they can pursue on their own.

 

Having said all that, it must sound terrible, but quite a lot, more as time goes by, the avoidant in my life will do or say something that reminds me why I love him. I can vouch that when you do give an avoidant lots of space and that you don't put expectations on them, that they will go into at least much less avoidant mode.

 

Being with a person like this is definitely not the right partner for someone who wants to pursue marrriage. You will be very disappointed.

[Silverbirch]

If I can give you one single tip, and it's not just for people with avoidants, but it's definitely helpful with an avoidant - LET THEM HAVE TIMES OF MISSING YOU I don't mean to do this in ways where you threaten them or manipulate them in a mean way. Just go get on with your life and let them come to you. Remember that pursuing an avoidant drives them away. Try also reading the thread here "Nonchalance is Your Friend"

[wilyone 11]

Many posts in this thread claim that avoidant and anxious types are that way because of childhood experiences.

 

But the book "Attached" says that these styles are actually present in young babies, so in other words it is in their "nature" and not due to "nurture".

 

Everyone should read this book. It's an easy read and incredibly enlightening. If nothing else, I no longer take my boyfriend's behavior as personally. When he needs distance, it's not because he's rejecting me, but because intimacy triggers a physiological reaction in him that compels him to get away.

[jlewand]

Many posts in this thread claim that avoidant and anxious types are that way because of childhood experiences.

 

But the book "Attached" says that these styles are actually present in young babies, so in other words it is in their "nature" and not due to "nurture".

 

Everyone should read this book. It's an easy read and incredibly enlightening. If nothing else, I no longer take my boyfriend's behavior as personally. When he needs distance, it's not because he's rejecting me, but because intimacy triggers a physiological reaction in him that compels him to get away.

 

Absolutely incorrect. Avoidants are made, not born.

[jlewand]

jlewand,

 

I would love to read some of the studies, do you have links? I read "Attachment" a few months ago and thought it was brilliant. It completely explained my boyfriend's behavior. I was totally "secure" with my ex of 15 years but with this guy I feel very anxious because he is always distancing himself, breaking dates, etc., even though he says he will always love me. I love him deeply as well and want our relationship to work but I often don't know how to deal with the anxiety he causes in me (I don't pursue him or make any demands, it seems that just feeling close to me is enough to make him bolt).

 

Thanks.

 

I've read more on this subject matter in the past 2 years than is humanly possible. I don't have any links. Google away.

[Starapple30]

It isn't true. A secure won't stick with an avoidant, in fact, they won't even find them attractive, as the nature of their core attachment style means they will be repulsed by an anxious.

 

And every relationship councillor on the planet agrees, it takes two to wreck a relationship, but one person can turn it around, if they stop their dysfunctional relating style.

 

The Avoidant can't/won't change, due to having shut down their emotional centre in defence against the constant threat of invasion by the Anxious.

The Anxious is unable to change, as they refuse to even except that they are damaging the relationship, refuse to take any responsibility for their behaviour, and instead blame their partner for it all, perpetuating their victim response, and dooming their relationship (see previous post).

 

 

This is not true. I am an anxious. I had no idea what was going on with my ex who is an avoidant. It was my first relationship. As much as I missed being away from him, if he simply said he need more space, he felt smothered, I would have backed off with no ill feelings. I would have actually went down on my knees and thanked God because he is telling me(dense me) his needs. See, I though he wanted to see me as much, otherwise why would he come see me. Im so plain spoken and clear about what I want hat It never occurred to me that he would feel "invaded". As a mater of fact, I had him promise me he would let me know the minute he was unhappy .Of course he didn't. What angers me about him is that he assumed I would "die" without him spending more time with me. C'mon. I lived quite comfortably alone for most of my adult life. Why would I need you around vs want you around. By the time I understood what was going on, we were broken up. Very painful experience that could have easily been resolved. That being said, I do believe the avoidant can change as well. BTW we both started off as secure. Thanks

[Silverbirch]

Posted by Strappie -

Im so plain spoken and clear about what I want hat It never occurred to me that he would feel "invaded"

 

 

There was something I realised with him after a while. That is that even some words I used, he interpreted differently to me. I can't remember all of what they were, but definitely the word "WANT".

 

I remember we were talking on the phone a few times, and I would say something like "Do you want me to come over" or "Do you want to come here". He seemed to make a big thing of saying "I would like to come over which is different to saying I want." He was so sensitive about issues relating to his avoidance that even the use of the word "want" to him meant "need". When I realised what was happening, I pointed that out, and just laughed and said, "In any case, I'm more passionate than you when I speak - it's the Italian in me."

 

I suppose I'm trying to say that even though we can think we are speaking clearly, how they interpret that or for that matter, how any other person interprets what we say can be quite different to our own subjective reality.

[Starapple30]

Mmmm, Interesting. He used to ask me, "when are you off from work this week?" I would answer and then he wouldn't say anything else. So I felt prompted to ask, are you coming over? I wanted to know what he planned on doing so I could make my plans too. I remember one time after about 3 months he forgot to ask me when I was off and I refused to tell him because I hated asking him if he was coming over. What happened? He was very disappointed later that night when I told him I was off that whole day. He asked me why I didn't tell him. I said to him because I didn't want anyone accusing me of being a OAG(overly attached girlfriend). He laughed a that....so very confusing. Yet, in the end he couldn't get away from me fast enough and claimed that he kept trying and trying to maintain the relationship. I was blown away. He is such a stranger to me now, It's so hard for me to open up and I let everything out with him. My fear now is that I will never be friends with him because I don't trust him.

[Starapple30]

Also, when I say want, I had one. That was, if he couldn't make I on time or couldn't make it at all let me know. Yes I have a LOT more time on my hands compared to him with multiple jobs but so what. I asked him one day, "Hey, I love it when you get your sleep and I know youre exhausted, no problem that you didn't come. Next time you cant make I just shoot me a text and lemme know." That was the beginning of the end. Friends for 2 yrs and romance for 8months. Both down the drain. Is life.

[Silverbirch]

Gotta go to work right now but back later. Yeah, I think they are paranoid about having a person keeping tabs on them and so they are extremely over-sensitive - always looking to see if someone is "trying to trap them". Not saying at all that is what you are doing, but that is what they are like.

[wilyone 11]

I'll have to read more about it. The book distinctly gives the impression that people are born with these attachment styles, that they evolved over hundreds of millions of years, and that it was biologically adaptive for some portion of the population to have an avoidant attachment style in order to survive.

[jlewand]

I'll have to read more about it. The book distinctly gives the impression that people are born with these attachment styles, that they evolved over hundreds of millions of years, and that it was biologically adaptive for some portion of the population to have an avoidant attachment style in order to survive.

 

The exact opposite. What happens in the first 2 years of life wires the brain (and stores all those memories in the right-brain as "implicit" memories). The left-brain comes online about 2 years of age.

 

Show me an avoidant or anxious or secure and I can tell exactly what happened during those first 2 years. It is inescapable.

 

100% of humans have a limbic system in which the sole purpose is to connect with ONE person. The human brain is the largest social organ known. That's its purpose. There is no social (societal) benefit to avoidants (but for the single avoidant person, their M.O. allowed them TO survive a horrifically neglectful childhood).

[jlewand]

Sim54 is utterly incorrect in saying preoccupied/anxious people can't change. They can. Avoidants are 1/100 as likely to change as a preoccupied. Yet, again, Sim54 thinks there's some equivalence between preoccupieds and avoidants. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Guess what happens if a secure is with an avoidant. The secure becomes less secure. By being rejected or having those withdraw from you (and going counter to the inherent drive your limbic system has to move TOWARDS an attachment figure), a secure will essentially develop a type of PTSD (which is exactly what happened to the avoidant as a child - they have developed a dissociative disorder out of necessity).

[journeynow]

the book "Attached" says that these styles are actually present in young babies, so in other words it is in their "nature" and not due to "nurture".

 

Everyone should read this book. It's an easy read and incredibly enlightening. If nothing else, I no longer take my boyfriend's behavior as personally. When he needs distance, it's not because he's rejecting me, but because intimacy triggers a physiological reaction in him that compels him to get away.

 

jlewand,

I read "Attachment" a few months ago and thought it was brilliant.

 

I'll have to read more about it. The book distinctly gives the impression that people are born with these attachment styles, that they evolved over hundreds of millions of years, and that it was biologically adaptive for some portion of the population to have an avoidant attachment style in order to survive.

 

wilyone, I'd like to know more about the book, it sounds interesting. Is the title "Attached"? or "Attachment"? Who is the author? There are a number of books on Amazon by those titles.

[journeynow]

I've read more on this subject matter in the past 2 years than is humanly possible. I don't have any links. Google away.

 

Really? jlewand, i have to say it's hard to believe that you know the absolute truth about the topic. It would be easier to listen to you if you weren't so dismissive of others, and if you could name some of your sources or reference material.

[jlewand]

Really? jlewand, i have to say it's hard to believe that you know the absolute truth about the topic. It would be easier to listen to you if you weren't so dismissive of others, and if you could name some of your sources or reference material.

 

Yes. Really. 8 hours per day of reading almost every day of the week. For 2 years.

 

The book title is Attached by Amir Levine. Levine's failing is in NOT differentiating fearful-avoidants from dismissive-avoidants. However, the book is still very useful.

 

I don't know the "absolute truth" on the topic, but Sim54 is well outside the accepted knowledge.

 

There is no way for me to produce a list of everything I've read over 2 years. If you have a specific question/area, I can provide a google keyword search.

[journeynow]

Thanks, jlewand. Why did you read so much about it, was it for school? I have to say, though, 8 hours a day IS humanly possible, even if it is a lot.

[jlewand]

Thanks, jlewand. Why did you read so much about it, was it for school? I have to say, though, 8 hours a day IS humanly possible, even if it is a lot.

 

Predictably, I had my heart broken by a fearful-avoidant (e.g. I had never heard of the term attachment theory until after this all transpired). After 2 1/2 years I'm slowly getting closure, but it bothers me to no end to see someone suffering like this knowing they can never, ever, ever connect safely with another human being (within reason, maybe siblings).

 

I've also emailed half a dozen of the top attachment researchers in the world to ask occasional questions I couldn't find addressed anywhere (books or internet).

 

And I uncovered a lot about my own attachment style during the process. Now, my prior attachment-related implicit memories that affected me are ABOVE the level of awareness for me so I can process them more accurately when they occur. It's revelatory to not be so "controlled" by one's early neural wiring.

[journeynow]

they can never, ever, ever connect safely with another human being

 

Never, ever? Is that proven, or theory? Can the brain be re-wired? Of course, they would have to want to change, and my experience with an avoident-style is he did not want to change. My ex did not have an " horrifically neglectful childhood" but he was injured and hospitalized as a toddler and perhaps he experienced that as "horrifically neglectful." In our relationship I was the anxious one, although throughout life, I guess I could be called avoident in some respects, anxious in others, and I also experienced a traumatic event around birth. I haven't read the books, but I wonder if we are born with personalities that make us prone to wire as avoident or anxious in response to a traumatic childhood. I also question that they can never connect safely with another human being, as I suspect there is a range of avoidance, there are other aspects of the individuals life that supports them, and relationships themselves vary in style and dynamic.

[jlewand]

Never in their current state. Sure, they can change, but all research shows avoidants changing is quite rare. Yes, there is a range of avoidance. To see how severe an avoidant may be, view Dan Siegel's youtube about the 9 functions the pre-frontal cortext is involved in (that are part of the concept of "integration").

 

Yes, you can have overt neglect or unintended neglect (see Ted Kaczyinski as an example of hospital-induced separation).

 

Repeat: our attachment styles are made not genetic/born. That's the whole point of the 50+ years of research.