Avoidant Love vs. Secure/Anxious Love

[Silverbirch]

I can empathise with much of what you say. I felt very much at times that I was walking on eggshells. By choosing to remain monogamous to him, I've pretty much been forced to do a lot more for myself. Oh yes, for quite some time I couldn't work out the whole thing of when are you are not working when I'm not working and when are we getting together.

 

I realise now that if I wouldn't mind his company, I tell him what I would like to do - a place where I would like to go or whatever. Then I say, "Of course you are welcome to come along if you want to." He will either say yes or no. If he says no, I just leave it go. Well, it's funny that he asked me to go to a place in the country with him this weekend where he is doing a short job. It's a place I have never been but would like to go. He asked me 2 weeks ago if I would like to go with him. I immediately said yes. He told tonight he is so glad I can make it this weekend because he has put that job off until I can go with him - because he wants to take me there!!! Of recent times, he has become prone to saying "I miss you" and similar things. LOL! For such a long time, he would tell me that he wasn't like other people - he didn't ever miss anyone. Then quite some time down the track, he said: "I've gotten used to you - and now I miss you when I can't see you."

 

I'm sure that I read something about avoidant personality dissorder and a study of observations of children. In this study, I think the children were around 18 months old. They were filmed in a room, taken there by their mothers. Then the mother would go away for a while and then come back. The children who became avoidant would not cry when the mother left, but apparently more significant, when the mother returned, the children did not stop their activities, look at the mother or interract with her. I was under the impression that with non-avoidant children, when the mother returns, the children would be very glad to see her and would immediately go to her.

[stroltz]

Predictably, I had my heart broken by a fearful-avoidant (e.g. I had never heard of the term attachment theory until after this all transpired). After 2 1/2 years I'm slowly getting closure, but it bothers me to no end to see someone suffering like this knowing they can never, ever, ever connect safely with another human being (within reason, maybe siblings).

 

I've also emailed half a dozen of the top attachment researchers in the world to ask occasional questions I couldn't find addressed anywhere (books or internet).

 

And I uncovered a lot about my own attachment style during the process. Now, my prior attachment-related implicit memories that affected me are ABOVE the level of awareness for me so I can process them more accurately when they occur. It's revelatory to not be so "controlled" by one's early neural wiring.

 

 

I read recently that the only healthy relationship an avoidant can have is with a secure person, because a secure gives the avoidant the space they need without feeling threatened or neglected him/herself. I even read that it's possible that in this kind of relationship the secure can "raise" the avoidant to a more secure state. So, in my case: ANXIOUS + AVOIDANT. If an anxious could change to a secure state, in principle he/she could make the avoidant change a bit. Isn't this a possible solution for the million dollar question?

 

Regards

[jlewand]

I read recently that the only healthy relationship an avoidant can have is with a secure person, because a secure gives the avoidant the space they need without feeling threatened or neglected him/herself. I even read that it's possible that in this kind of relationship the secure can "raise" the avoidant to a more secure state. So, in my case: ANXIOUS + AVOIDANT. If an anxious could change to a secure state, in principle he/she could make the avoidant change a bit. Isn't this a possible solution for the million dollar question?

 

Regards

Now that I KNOW how avoidants think, even though I'm a hybrid preoccupied/secure, I wouldn't have as much of a problem if they withdrew because I now KNOW what that withdrawal means (and what it doesn't mean). However, it is still "unnatural" to withdraw from an attachment figure (it goes against the limbic system). And, I'd still be involved in a "non-complete" relationship.

 

The secure can raise the avoidant, but usually a relationship is "dictated" by the avoidant strategy.

[wilyone 11]

I read recently that the only healthy relationship an avoidant can have is with a secure person, because a secure gives the avoidant the space they need without feeling threatened or neglected him/herself. I even read that it's possible that in this kind of relationship the secure can "raise" the avoidant to a more secure state. So, in my case: ANXIOUS + AVOIDANT. If an anxious could change to a secure state, in principle he/she could make the avoidant change a bit. Isn't this a possible solution for the million dollar question?

 

Regards

 

I give my avoidant tons of space. I never initiate and always wait for him to ask me out, make contact etc. And he always comes around eventually. We'll date for maybe 2 months and he'll do something to sabotage the relationship. Yet he says he will always love me. I try not to take it personally, but I get fed up and then we go on another break. I know I'll always love this man but I know my needs will always come second. I haven't probed him on this, but my guess is that he's never had a single good relationship in his life. He was abandoned by his father when he was 6 months old and raised by a "deranged" mother.

 

I actually feel physically better when we're on breaks, because my anxiety generally goes away. I just feel love for him, and I feel his love for me, but I'm not on that emotional roller coaster where he's jerking me around. For example, his typical MO is to send me a text on Wed saying he'll be around all week the following week and he misses me and would like to see me. I'll say that sounds great, I'm free Tues or Wed, and he'll respond Ok I'll be in touch. Then I hear nothing from him until say Monday night, and then something will have come up and he can't get together. This drives me pretty crazy. I confronted the situation once and he went totally silent, and then dropped me shortly afterward saying he couldn't handle the drama (and I'm not a dramatic person). He changes his mind on an hourly basis.

 

I am considering getting into a non-exclusive relationship with a secure person (one from my past wants to reconnect and I really like him), and just connecting with my avoidant on the side because he could never fulfill my needs on a consistent basis.

[stroltz]

Now that I KNOW how avoidants think, even though I'm a hybrid preoccupied/secure, I wouldn't have as much of a problem if they withdrew because I now KNOW what that withdrawal means (and what it doesn't mean). However, it is still "unnatural" to withdraw from an attachment figure (it goes against the limbic system). And, I'd still be involved in a "non-complete" relationship.

 

The secure can raise the avoidant, but usually a relationship is "dictated" by the avoidant strategy.

 

Well I guess almost everyone in this thread is ANXIOUS or has anxious traits, just like me. Avoidants don't realize these issues nor do they try to find a solution for the problems in the relationship. But I wonder, what happens when an AVOIDANT reads a book such as "Attached" by Levine. What do THEY think? Do they realize their own issues and try to change like an anxious does?

[jlewand]

Well I guess almost everyone in this thread is ANXIOUS or has anxious traits, just like me. Avoidants don't realize these issues nor do they try to find a solution for the problems in the relationship. But I wonder, what happens when an AVOIDANT reads a book such as "Attached" by Levine. What do THEY think? Do they realize their own issues and try to change like an anxious does?

 

I was fortunate enough, after coaxing my avoidant along for 5 months (she withdrew at the height of our dating/connection), to read her a prepared letter explaining what her ongoing struggle was. Said letter was written by myself with help from a fearful-avoidant person (who I met online at a psych forum).

 

I also left 3 books for her and a list of counselors. The books were Jasmin Cori's (Emotionally Absent Mother), Levine's (Attached) and Frederick's (Living Like You Mean It). She returned the 3 books within a week and asked never to be contacted again.

 

The irony was, she invited me upstairs after spotting me on the street (I was there to get past this once and for all). My 'stalking' was also under the guidance/advice of a fearful-avoidant (same one who critiqued the letter). She said my avoidant would appreciate my effort and sure enough she was correct. I'd been texting her all week requesting a face-to-face and she was almost ready to accept but began withdrawing again.

 

I asked said assisting (advice, letter edit) fearful-avoidant person why she would have spotted me on the street and acknowledged me AND invited me upstairs after being withdrawn for 5 months and getting cold feet about hearing "what I found that might help you". It was baffling but now I understand: the fear itself is greater than what they are specifically fearing. So, as soon as she saw me, all that fear melted away in an instant (again, kind of a dissociative state).

 

Forgot: read the reviews (or comments on reviews) of Attached on amazon and I think there might be an avoidant in which the book caused the lightbulb to come on.....

[stroltz]

My recent experience: I recently came in contact with Attachment theory and all of a sudden everything made sense to me. It brought me hope and more than that: it empowered me. I feel now that I'm the one dictating the relationship and not my AVOIDANT girlfriend (even though she doesn't even suspect why I changed). Basically, I was raised from severly ANXIOUS to slightly SECURE just by the knowledge and understanding of all the attachment dynamics.

 

Let me explain better. Now, everytime she shuts off to me or that she sets a distance I see it as weakness from her, and quite frankly... IT TURNS ME ON. I see a girl who really likes me and is unable to show it and that mysterious side excites me. I became the one with the knowledge, I understand her and she doesn't understand me and doesn't even suspect why I suddenly got to such a secure state.

 

The reason why I asked what an avoidant thinks when they read about attachment theory is because i'm DEAD CURIOUS. I think I will never tell my girlfriend about these things, because I'm afraid to lose that power over her.

[journeynow]

I was fortunate enough...to read her a prepared letter explaining what her ongoing struggle was....

 

I also left 3 books for her and a list of counselors. The books were Jasmin Cori's (Emotionally Absent Mother), Levine's (Attached) and Frederick's (Living Like You Mean It). She returned the 3 books within a week and asked never to be contacted again.

 

I can imagine those actions would not work with an avoidant.

[jlewand]

The "mysterious" side excites you, because as your were raised by an inconsistently-attuned mother, that "guessing" and "navigating to get their attention" feeling is part and parcel of your attachment internal-working-model. That's the part I don't like but I also have become more secure armed with that knowledge.

 

My particular situation also had the dynamic of: if I can somehow get this very challenged woman to ameliorate her issues with the movitation being ME (the "prize"), I can be sure, once and for all, that I AM deemed to be worthy of another's attention and love. No, that's never going to happen, but it is the "dream"....

[jlewand]

I can imagine those actions would not work with an avoidant.

 

It seems not. I thought for sure, since I had an avoidant on my side overseeing everything, that I (we) were doing the best thing we could possibly try to in helping this person. She obviously had an uncanny ability to predict exactly how my avoidant would react. The only thing she missed was her being receptive to the information (which she was the next day as she texted thanking me). But a few days after that her tune changed and that's the story.....

[stroltz]

I can imagine those actions would not work with an avoidant.

 

Why not? Can you explain it? Are you avoidant or do you actually know how they react to the knowledge of Atachment theory? I mean, I am anxious and I read all of this and I think 'ahhhhhh finally I understand, I also have to change, it's both of us and I will try everything'.

 

Can anyone answer what an avoidant actually thinks of attachment theory??

[jlewand]

Why not? Can you explain it? Are you avoidant or do you actually know how they react to the knowledge of Atachment theory? I mean, I am anxious and I read all of this and I think 'ahhhhhh finally I understand, I also have to change, it's both of us and I will try everything'.

 

Can anyone answer what an avoidant actually thinks of attachment theory??

 

Suffice to say, an avoidant's sense of self-awareness is virtually zero when compared to the awareness a preoccupied or secure exhibits. I thought that if she were presented with exactly what her struggle is, she'd have a chance, for the first time, to address the undesired manifestations of her childhood. IOW, at least the problem would have a name and an identity vs. just this mysterious, gelatinous blob of neural matter.

 

The avoidant adviser who helped me, was receptive when her bf sat her down and told her what her struggle was. But, obviously, not all avoidants are created equally.

[journeynow]

Why not? Can you explain it? Are you avoidant or do you actually know how they react to the knowledge of Atachment theory? I mean, I am anxious and I read all of this and I think 'ahhhhhh finally I understand, I also have to change, it's both of us and I will try everything'.

 

Can anyone answer what an avoidant actually thinks of attachment theory??

 

I think it's too much, too direct, too much blame on the avoidant, they'd naturally react by avoiding. Even non-avoidants might.

[journeynow]

The avoidant adviser who helped me, was receptive when her bf sat her down and told her what her struggle was. But, obviously, not all avoidants are created equally.

 

Talking is different than a letter and 3 books and a list of counselors. There's tone of voice, body language, opportunity for dialogue, facial expression, touch,...maybe a chance to absorb it in bits... still, you run the risk of overloading them, making them feel blamed and flawed.

 

Plus, you are not their therapist, and they might resent you.

[wilyone 11]

Talking is different than a letter and 3 books and a list of counselors. There's tone of voice, body language, opportunity for dialogue, facial expression, touch,...maybe a chance to absorb it in bits... still, you run the risk of overloading them, making them feel blamed and flawed.

 

Plus, you are not their therapist, and they might resent you.

 

If someone gave me a letter, 3 books and a list of counselors, I would also run the hell away and tell them never to contact me again. I would feel incredibly self-conscious, flawed and pscyho-analyzed.

[jlewand]

Talking is different than a letter and 3 books and a list of counselors. There's tone of voice, body language, opportunity for dialogue, facial expression, touch,...maybe a chance to absorb it in bits... still, you run the risk of overloading them, making them feel blamed and flawed.

 

Plus, you are not their therapist, and they might resent you.

 

She was incredibly receptive during my talk. She sat and listened. Then she asked questions. Asking for clarification, examples, etc. And, she also asked for a relationship with me.

 

Included in my talk was:

 

"I know what I'm about to say will likely cause you to never want to speak to me again. And since I've clearly said I DO want a relationship with you, I submit to you that I'm doing this because it is absolutely accurate and is the best chance to help."

 

The letter was worded as empathically as could be done. To show how dissociative she is, after the 1 hour talk was done, she playfully teased me with the folder I had brought with me. That's the sad part to see; just no sense of cohesiveness in their left-right brain (lack thereof) integration.

 

Unfortunately, there's no way to completely sugar-coat it.

[stroltz]

Another question: do avoidants cheat more?

[jlewand]

If someone gave me a letter, 3 books and a list of counselors, I would also run the hell away and tell them never to contact me again. I would feel incredibly self-conscious, flawed and pscyho-analyzed.

Agreed. However, during our relationship, she was fairly direct in alluding to her "problem" (having seen a counselor on multiple occasions) and could I still be her friend while she works on it, etc. Meaning she had some level of awareness with her struggle. But, the pain (and anger) from childhood are simply too profound for her to deal with directly.

[jlewand]

Another question: do avoidants cheat more?

 

Absolutely they do. Since they don't "value" human connection (they have suppressed that), they have their dopamine delivered by NOT getting close and having casual sex (and/or affairs). Anthony Weiner is a prime example of an avoidant (he likely has NPD also).

[journeynow]

I submit to you that I'm doing this because it is absolutely accurate and is the best chance to help."

 

The letter was worded as empathically as could be done. To show how dissociative she is, after the 1 hour talk was done, she playfully teased me with the folder I had brought with me. That's the sad part to see; just no sense of cohesiveness in their left-right brain (lack thereof) integration.

 

Unfortunately, there's no way to completely sugar-coat it.

 

Sorry to say, I might become avoidant also.

[jlewand]

Sorry to say, I might become avoidant also.

 

I suppose that's par for the course. I thought between her already making statements of her struggle as well as her statements after her withdrawal, that she would be receptive (in the end, ultimately, vs. just during the face-to-face). It's been a heck of a life-learning experience to have gone through this. But, ultimately, it's a lose-lose situation.

 

I think now, no matter what or how I said anything, the result would have been the same. At least I tried......

[journeynow]

I think now, no matter what or how I said anything, the result would have been the same. At least I tried......

 

That may be, but I've noticed in your posts you use extreme language with words such as "ultimately", "utterly", "exact", "absolutely", "obviously," "has no clue", "never", " virtually zero", "I KNOW" (rather than "I know"). It might be adding to the problem, pushing people away.

[jlewand]

That may be, but I've noticed in your posts you use extreme language with words such as "ultimately", "utterly", "exact", "absolutely", "obviously," "has no clue", "never", " virtually zero", "I KNOW" (rather than "I know"). It might be adding to the problem, pushing people away.

 

I couched the letter and statements in the softest language I could (with the help of the avoidant friend). It's not adding to the problem. It is the nature of the rigid, unintegrated avoidant person.....

[Lonewing]

I'll have to read more about it. The book distinctly gives the impression that people are born with these attachment styles, that they evolved over hundreds of millions of years, and that it was biologically adaptive for some portion of the population to have an avoidant attachment style in order to survive.

 

Not entirely true. I felt it gave a fair balance to social rearing and how that has the ability to move the trend in whatever direction over time. Too much of any one thing and it'll have an equal reaction within the other individual, normalized by their level of reaction [how much they react to the outside environment] and how strong the primary action is. So you may be every bit secure, but with the "wrong" person at the wrong time, you could easily end up becoming either anxious or avoidant, as a matter of struggling to survive.

 

The stronger we are though, the more expeirence we have, the more likely we have the ability to control ourselves, our emotions, and take proper steps to end the negative feedback cycle that ultimately leads to the self fulfilling prophecy.

[Lonewing]

The exact opposite. What happens in the first 2 years of life wires the brain (and stores all those memories in the right-brain as "implicit" memories). The left-brain comes online about 2 years of age.

 

Show me an avoidant or anxious or secure and I can tell exactly what happened during those first 2 years. It is inescapable.

 

100% of humans have a limbic system in which the sole purpose is to connect with ONE person. The human brain is the largest social organ known. That's its purpose. There is no social (societal) benefit to avoidants (but for the single avoidant person, their M.O. allowed them TO survive a horrifically neglectful childhood).

 

We only say One becasue in our culture, we are only taught to connect with One other person. If that is what we see when we're young, we simply accept it. If we were taught to be multiplicit, I'm more than certain we'd do just as well, though we'd be more aware of our feelings of being left out or more prone to being jealous when someone is openly spending time with someone who is not us.

 

A more appropriate set of terms may be, "100% of humans have a limbic system with the sole purpsoe of connecting with other people." Even avoidants have this system, and they have connected with another human being - themselves, or any multiplicity of internal characters.