My long-distance marriage

[OptomisticGirl]

It's common to use your SO to masturbate too. I do. And I don't think there is anything wrong with porn in moderation.

[Capricorn3]

FM, I have to be honest and say that I find it mildly disturbing that you seem to have all your private, personal marriage/sexual details all over the internet. I only say this because it seems you have discussed this in many many different sites, you seem to PM many women on all these various sites, also PM women on facebook etc etc. How about you discuss these issues with your wife and get to the bottom of it and work on what is really going on in this marriage? You can discuss these things with a thousand women, but none of us KNOW HER. Only YOU know her and therefore, it should be between the two of you. How can you possibly think that just because ten women say "try a lot more necking" that your wife would automatically love this? Seriously? You should KNOW what YOUR wife likes and dislikes. ASK HER!

I would be absolutely mortified and horrified if I ever found out that my husband is doing this and talking about our private life to so many strangers. I would hope he would discuss these things with me.

 

Something tells me you two have pretty bad communication skills and something is just not working in the way you two interact with each other. Once again, if communication is lacking, then I again strongly recommend marriage counselling, so as to help you two get to the bottom of what is really going on, and her REAL reasons for backing off in the sex department. I think there is something really deep going on (as to her real reasons), and the sooner you get to find out, the better. If she's the one at fault for not communicating properly, then you need to encourage marriage counselling even more, so as to get her to tell you the truth. My guess is that she is witholding the truth so as to not hurt you, but I could be wrong.

 

Good, strong communication is KEY to any successful marriage (imo).

[truegrit]

Capricorn3 ........I also touched on what you just said in another of FM's threads where he detailed very very intimately his ML to his wife. I found it disturbing to go into all the private details. I even commented that I wondered how his wife would feel if she knew he was doing that. I totally agree with what your saying.

 

FM......don't you feel that it is a bit disrespectful to your wife to post these things all over the internet? You seem to love her very much but maybe you don't respect her? Also, I don't think anyone knows what another is thinking even our spouses and even if they tell us many times they don't spill out the whole truth for fear of hurting each other or for numerous other reasons. Seems like you are just putting way too much importance to the sexual aspect of your relationship and maybe putting too much pressure on her by bringing it up so much that is if you bring it up with her as much as you do in different forums. Maybe just kinda lay off it a bit and take things as they come........

[ClarenceRutherford]

This all makes sense now. Yes, the sex was short, just to get me off.

 

She's hurt about something and wouldn't tell me.

Drags this on - and our marriage down - for years.

Why couldn't she have told me? I didn't want it to be about me. Yes, I've been a guy who doesn't know about all of this. I can't read her mind.

 

 

Checked out? She doesn't love me anymore and wants out?

God, this realization hurts like hell...

 

Yes, communication is important.

But why would she "check-out" of this marriage?

 

She doesn't want to hurt me? You gals think she wants to leave and has long wanted to leave? God, I"ve been so blind.

 

I think I feel worse now. All that I'm doing to get her to welcome me back sexually isn't gonna help if she's not in love with me anymore.

[OptomisticGirl]

If she's overly religious she may not feel comfortable talking about it with you. My grandparents had eight kids together but never once discussed the mechanics of what sex was about.

 

'checked out' doesn't mean she doesn't love you anymore. I 'check out' of my last relationship long before it ended. I still loved him but I started distancing myself because I knew the end was coming. She has decided to check out in a physical way although in some cases, it does sound emotional as well.

[Fudgie]

I think it's possible that she has "checked out" emotionally, FM. I'm sorry to say that but it's a definite possibility.

 

And it doesn't mean that if she's checked out, she's looking for other people to be with. It means she's just emotionally and physically distanced.

[ClarenceRutherford]

I agree 100% with this. You are screaming that it's all about you, you, you, you and the fact she's denying you but if you were always denying her her orgasm or just doing it get yourself off well, it's ALWAYS been about you, you, you. Now it's time for it to be about her, her, her.

Ouch. That hurts but is true.

Honestly, I didn't know much about a female orgasm until a couple of years ago. I did ask her if she ever had one and told her I'd like to try to help her have one.

But we didn't really talk about sex much in the past.

 

She's reserved about that topic and has a lot of hang-ups like no oral sex. I don't necessarily need OS given to me, but I want to give it to her sometimes, as I've done that in the past with other ladies and wish I could give it to her.

 

I recently read more about the topic in that Sheet Music book. I want to read through it again, and take notes, and start reading those other books, like this one.

-Intimacy & Desire: Awaken the Passion in Your Relationship - Dr. David Schnarch P.h.D;

link removed

 

I hear that is a great book that has helped many couples, but am afraid it will only stir up sexual thoughts in me and I won't do what Janeiac recommended- keep my hands off her when I see her and leave it up to her. Cuddle her, yes, but let her direct it. It's up to her if she wants to ML.

I don't want to spoil her upcoming visiit. Maybe should MB to get rid of the tension.

If your wife had been sexually abused before marriage would you feel the same?

Would do everything I could to support and help her, but she would need to get counseling as she's letting something from the past hinder a present relationship.

SHE said yes to my proposal. Nothing forced her to marry me.

I sometimes wonder why she married me. Was it her advancing age? She jokes she was "desparate" and I joke that I was as well.

 

This feeling that it's near over is killling me, though, and not what I wanted out of this thread. Reality does bite, however, so I needed to consider this.

[ClarenceRutherford]

Yes, I'm very expressive in these posts, but this is an anonymous board. I haven't used my nor her names. And I don't plan to show her these threads. I may well start another user name to keep that from happening.

 

You have a good point though and I am sorry I went into TMI. I was trying to show what its like living in a sexless marital hell but got too carried away with my descriptions. If I could go in and edit out those parts, I would.

Notice however I haven't been TMI in this thread, except maybe that "love talk" chat I posted. which even some got irrationally upset about...

 

Guilty as charged. Even she has told me that, like during that Oct. weekend visit.

I told her this is important and something I want us to return to, so I apologized for offending her on this but said I'm trying to restore our marriage...

 

A couple of years ago, I woke up and realized I wasn't gonna stand for this rejection any more. I tried to fix the situation then but couldn't. Now I'm armed with these books.

This isn't dating and I'm not in my 20s anymore where I had more than enough rejection ... so I'm out to change things.

[ClarenceRutherford]

BTW, I'm not planning to "check out" of this marriage. And I'm not going down quietly.

I thought we were a happy couple otherwise.

 

We've lived apart in sep. states since July.

You know how you can wake up in a hotel room and not recognize where you are? (I travel a lot on business and freq. find myself confused by a shining light or the configuration of an unfamiliar Hampton Inn or Marriott).

 

It's odd. I like slept-walked the other night. I awoke in the middle of the night and realized I could go see her in the room she was sleeping in. Why am I here in my room when she's over there?

I literally started to walk toward the master bedroom, which is now empty of furniture. (I live in a guest bedroom). Then awoke as I recognized where I really was in real-time and that she's not here. God, I miss her so much.

 

Yes, I'm starting to come to tears now. But these tears are more worthwhile of my time than crying over a woman who rejected me 20+ years ago.

[anthony4]

I had a dream a week or so back that i was on the couch at her place, she was at work, i was hanging out with her family which i had grown so close to, and she slid on right next to me, up to my neck. I remember even saying to her in the dream, "you're not here". sleeping is supposed to be re-charge time. Not so when your awake brain is so such duress.

[OptomisticGirl]

Would do everything I could to support and help her, but she would need to get counseling as she's letting something from the past hinder a present relationship.

SHE said yes to my proposal. Nothing forced her to marry me.

.

 

This bothers me because I think it shows that you equate sex with love and that if you aren't having sex, something is wrong. And I asked that question for that purpose. As a survivor of sexual assault, I would never be with a man who said 'I'll support you but you have have to get over it because you are letting your past hinder a present relationship'. That in itself is saying 'you might have been abused but it's YOUR fault this is hindering our relationship' when, it's not that person's fault. It's the abusers fault. And the only person who is 'hindering' the relaitonship is the person who thinks the relationship is being hindered.

 

Same with your wife. It's not her fault (and I don't say this accusingly, it's a fact you yourself have stated) that for the first part of your marriage the sex life was all about you and your pleasure. You were the one that did that. Granted, you didn't know about the female orgasm and all that but still, at the end of the day, that was your fault (And you can admit to that). So why is her lack of wanting sex suddenly her fault? It's not. I can almost guarantee you that her lack of wanting sex is tied in with your previous sexual history together.

 

And you say she didn't talk to you... a lot of women don't feel comfortable talking about their sex lives, especially if they are religious. She gave you no fair warning about cutting sex off but you never gave her warning that the sex would only be about her. You can say she should have told you (And to some degree sure, she should have) but you could have also taken the initiative and researched the information yourself.

[ClarenceRutherford]

This bothers me because I think it shows that you equate sex with love and that if you aren't having sex, something is wrong. And I asked that question for that purpose.

Yes, I will admit I wrongly equate sex with love.

I finally opened Intimacy & Desire by David Schnarch (linked in an earlier post in this thread).

It goes into this that the low drive partner controls the sex and not nec. bec. the LD person doesn't like the other or is doing it to be mean.

 

I may post more on this later (have only read 2 chapters), as I need to get my thoughts on that down right, but in essence, the partner that "holds out" on the other isn't necessarily doing it out of control or bec. that partner doesn't love the other. Schnarch also says lack of desire is not abnormal and actually common in marriages.

So the book validates much of what I'm hearing in this thread.

As a survivor of sexual assault, I would never be with a man who said 'I'll support you but you have have to get over it because you are letting your past hinder a present relationship'. That in itself is saying 'you might have been abused but it's YOUR fault this is hindering our relationship' when, it's not that person's fault. It's the abusers fault. And the only person who is 'hindering' the relaitonship is the person who thinks the relationship is being hindered.

I'm gonna plead ignorance here bec. I don't really know anything about sexual abuse.

I'd like to think a fiance would bring that up BEFORE marriage.

Wouldn't point a finger at her and claim it's all her fault, but would suggest counseling as that's a major issue.

 

On that sexless forum, there's one guy whose wife witheld for like 15 years. Due primarily to past abuse. He finally had to leave her. So that can cause problems.

Same with your wife. It's not her fault (and I don't say this accusingly, it's a fact you yourself have stated) that for the first part of your marriage the sex life was all about you and your pleasure. You were the one that did that. Granted, you didn't know about the female orgasm and all that but still, at the end of the day, that was your fault (And you can admit to that). So why is her lack of wanting sex suddenly her fault? It's not. I can almost guarantee you that her lack of wanting sex is tied in with your previous sexual history together.

Would like to say it wasn't TOTALLY about me. I did care for her feelings and if she was being "satisfied." I do recall inquiring but like I posted, her needs unfortunately weren't my primary focus. (I don't think I'm alone in that).

 

That Schnarch book goes into this. The low drive partner controls sex whether he/she wants to or not.

 

Sexual desire problems are natural and inevitible.

And men are responsible for about half of the low desire issues.

 

"Sexual desire problems can be the midpoint rather than the end of a relationship. When you understand this, you'll stop feeling unloved and you'll watch your interactions with your partner more carefully," Schnarch writes (my emphasis).

 

And you say she didn't talk to you... a lot of women don't feel comfortable talking about their sex lives, especially if they are religious. She gave you no fair warning about cutting sex off but you never gave her warning that the sex would only be about her. You can say she should have told you (And to some degree sure, she should have) but you could have also taken the initiative and researched the information yourself.

Again, points taken (again).

 

Clearly, I'm learning about this.

[OptomisticGirl]

Yes, sexual abuse will be discussed before marriage but when you have been abused it is with you FOREVER. It's not something that once you marry is never a problem. For me I am OVERLY promcisious because of the abuse (my fiance disagrees) but that is my perception on myself.

[Capricorn3]

like I posted, her needs unfortunately weren't my primary focus

I believe therein lies the key to most of the problems/issues. All these years she's probably felt very neglected, both emotionally and physically, which made her withdraw mentally, emotionally and physically. Seeing it from HER point of view, I can imagine the damage is done and will take a lot of work to put it right. Hopefully you can fix this on your own, but I doubt it.

[ClarenceRutherford]

Just to clarify my position on withholding...

When I said I thought a spouse has no right to unilaterly (without discussion) stop LM... I meant under normal circumstances (not abuse, alcoholism, etc.).

Am talking ideally. Didn't mean a spouse doesn't have any rights or is "property" of the other.

 

And I don't mean if a spouse "isn't in the mood," he or she should always be forced to give in.

I mean a consistent, habitual pattern where refusal or withholding goes on for months, even years. Without any explanation. Just "no..." That crushes the other partner and is not a marriage, IMHO.

 

A woman on another forum who PM'd me (about porn- she and another female poster convinced me get off it), told me she never refused her former husband.

"....Never, Fla. Man, I never turned him down when he wanted me...."

She tried to initiate but he frequently turned her down. Seems he preferred to jack-off to porn than ML to the woman he married!!

[velvette]

you are a very interesting person, I must say... I have only come accross two other people similar to you, and both were religious. I'm not sure if I can make any generalizations, but for the most part you guys are all 1) over-analytical, 2) self-righteous, and 3) self-proclaimed victims. I'm sure you're all very different in many other ways, but these three large points jump out at me. one other thing which I found quite interesting is that the other two also liked to italicize and bold what they typed (that is probably what lead me to my recent conclusion)!

 

I can only advise that you don't place the importance on what your WIFE is doing. because you can not change what SHE is doing. you can only change yourself, so you must focus on what YOU are doing. don't point at examples where women "never" refuse their husbands and wish your own wife could be like that, but look at examples where the husband is more caring, stable, and independent -- or whatever your wife wants you to be more like (if you're not sure about this, just ask her! ask her, what can you do to be a better husband? how can you make her happy? how can you make sex a mutually beneficial arrangement?).

 

maybe you will want to complain, it is not fair! she is the root of the problem! she is the only one controlling the sex, the one ruining this marriage! but you know what, it doesn't matter. if you want to make it better, you will have to take the responsibility. I forget if I've mentioned Al Turtle yet, but his site is a great read you should try out (google will lead to his page easily). his philosophies are really quite sound! as he once said, "It only takes ONE to make a marriage, but TWO to make a divorce." JUST you can make a difference in your relationship!

[ClarenceRutherford]

you are a very interesting person, I must say... I have only come accross two other people similar to you, and both were religious. I'm not sure if I can make any generalizations, but for the most part you guys are all 1) over-analytical, 2) self-righteous, and 3) self-proclaimed victims. I'm sure you're all very different in many other ways, but these three large points jump out at me. one other thing which I found quite interesting is that the other two also liked to italicize and bold what they typed (that is probably what lead me to my recent conclusion)!

Gonna take your observation as a complement, as I'm thin-skinned as it is and need all the positives I can get.

Like I said, I know very little about women or sex and need all the help I can get. I've had many online offer suggestions and support.

I can only advise that you don't place the importance on what your WIFE is doing. because you can not change what SHE is doing. you can only change yourself, so you must focus on what YOU are doing. don't point at examples where women "never" refuse their husbands and wish your own wife could be like that, but look at examples where the husband is more caring, stable, and independent -- or whatever your wife wants you to be more like (if you're not sure about this, just ask her! ask her, what can you do to be a better husband? how can you make her happy? how can you make sex a mutually beneficial arrangement?).

 

maybe you will want to complain, it is not fair! she is the root of the problem! she is the only one controlling the sex, the one ruining this marriage! but you know what, it doesn't matter. if you want to make it better, you will have to take the responsibility. I forget if I've mentioned Al Turtle yet, but his site is a great read you should try out (google will lead to his page easily). his philosophies are really quite sound! as he once said, "It only takes ONE to make a marriage, but TWO to make a divorce." JUST you can make a difference in your relationship!

I'll look up Turtle. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

For the others, I don't think our marriage is about to end and I truly hope she hasn't "checked out" of her love for me.

Do want to ask her if she "checked out" of our marriage a long time ago. But am afraid it will cause a fight. I don't want to make her mad and ruin the mood during our upcoming short weekend visit. Perhaps I can ask her on the drive to the airport when she leaves. Still kinda scared to bring that up. It's pretty personal.

 

Maybe just let it go and focus on improving things as if things get better, I won't need to know just like I don't need to know specific details about a physical relationship she had with a former fiance years before we met.

 

She's to fly here the last weekend of this month, and I really want to get close to her, but am planning on not pressuring her. I want to do the "push-pull" and draw her to me through cuddling, etc. Let her intiate or open herself up to me if she so feels.

 

I love her dearly. I was 30 when I met her and knew she was the right one.

Plan to do everything I can to keep this marriage going.

 

All of your advice is good and I appreciate it.

[OptomisticGirl]

I truly think you are putting too much emphaize on sex. I mean yes, it's a basic need for us as humans and is a wonderful way to show you care but it's not the ONLY means to do so. If my fiance were to lose his sex drive tomorrow I wouldn't run tail and run. We would just have to compensate in other areas of our marriage. However, I wouldn't keep getting my hopes up when I know he doens't want it.

 

Instead of concentrating on the one huge negative, concentrate on the other great aspects of your marriage. I think you over thinking this WAY too much. Step back for a while and not think about sex. Look at the other aspects of your relationship, your emotional connection, throw yourself into strenghting those ties, not the sexual. I bet when you take the focus of how little sex you are having, the sex will actually pick up!

[truegrit]

I agree totally with OG. It seems you are putting way too much thought into the sex part of your marriage. Reading books by the dozens, posting on forums, thinking discussing and so on. I am not sure where your problems are so much now as you are stating that the last few times you have seen her you have had great sex, so why are you worrying about it so much?

 

I think you are trying too hard to please her and smothering her with all the over the top romancing, sex talk etc. That can become a turnoff in itself. You've been married for a good amount of time just carry on more normally and I think the sex part will come naturally.

[ClarenceRutherford]

I agree totally with OG. It seems you are putting way too much thought into the sex part of your marriage. Reading books by the dozens, posting on forums, thinking discussing and so on. I am not sure where your problems are so much now as you are stating that the last few times you have seen her you have had great sex, so why are you worrying about it so much?

 

I think you are trying too hard to please her and smothering her with all the over the top romancing, sex talk etc. That can become a turnoff in itself. You've been married for a good amount of time just carry on more normally and I think the sex part will come naturally.

Truegrit, you make some good points here.

On the books, I'm not reading dozens of them, just 3-4 titles or so (as well as a couple on marriage improvement which covers sex but that's not the focus).

 

Any help I can get, I'm welcoming as I'm not really experienced with sex (even in marriage) and don't know how women think and maybe I'm some typical male on this, thinking only of myself.

 

The first two books I've read, Sheet Music and Intimacy & Desire have really helped, esp. the latter as it showed my a partner's low desire doesn't nec. mean the other partner isn't loved. And I've taken that low desire too personally. Have only read one ch. of that book (it's not as easy to read through like Sheet Music) but plan to go farther with it.

[ClarenceRutherford]

We wouldn't be helping if we only told you what you wanted to hear.

Saffron, I did read this earlier and took in what you said, but unfortunately forgot to respond.

I don't think you're listening to the constructive criticisms that are being made. You're so busy being defensive because you don't like when others disagree with your judgement that you lash out. You need to stop looking for advice like "try to neck her more...that drives woman crazy" I mean, as a woman I look at that statement and thing ****!!! How can someone be so off the mark.

That advice was from a Christian woman - not a former GF - I used to know in HS on Facebook.

Took it as "inside" information. She says guys that neck her really get her going...

Thought it might work in my case, but it didn't, though I'm gonna keep tryin'...

* I admit I don't know a lot about women...

The point I was trying to make was that you come accross as very sexually aggressive. Look at how your posts are written. What you might see as passion and dedication to fixing your marriage, others (including your wife) might see you as overpowering and intimidating.

That's a good point. I think I may be smothering her. I'm gonna try what Fudge and Janeiac recommended and take it easy, play nonchalant (if I can do that!!), hug and cuddle with her, but not try to go farther to where she feels pressured.

I admit this is going to be very hard.....

Now, don't think I in any way think a sexless relationship is fine (unless both are happy that way) because I don't. But IMO the way you're trying to 'fix things' won't work. I think you lack a lot of understanding about women (reading Dr Laura whoever the hell that is won't help!) and I can't believe any woman worth her salt would offer advice like 'try necking more'. Any women on here offering that kind of advice? Of course not. Uggh it makes me cringe just thinking about it.

 

Now you may not like what I have to say and I'm pretty damn certain it's not what you want to hear, but it's honest feedback. Take it or leave it. Giving nicey nicey 'Oh everything will be fine, you're such a good husband' advice might make someone feel better but it doesn't help them with their problem. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear.

Dr. Laura, in case some don't know, is/was a major radio talk show advice host. During the 90s, she was second only to Rush in number of listeners.

 

On the advice you provide, you're right, Saffron.

I don't need only validation. I need the hard truth. Thank you for providing it.

[velvette]

I just wanted to point out that you don't need to know a lot about women, you only need to know more about one womAn. easier task there, isn't it? (:

[Capricorn3]

I can't help get the impression that you are relying far too much on other people to fix the relationship issues. Too much outside information from a hundred strangers on the internet, too many books, too many PM's and emails to other women - none of whom KNOW YOUR WIFE. I feel in the end you'll have so many different points of view which leads to overload and will NOT help in any way at all (imo).

 

Try focusing on your wife alone. TALK to HER. ASK her. Discuss things with HER. Work on your marriage with your wife - NOT a million strangers on the internet who know nothing about either of you.

[truegrit]

You might want to google Dr Laura and read about her real life (it's nothing like she preaches)......she plays to the very conservative, religious views. Not too many independent women would have any love for her. You can count on her always siding with men and has a total double standard with men vs women. She advocates very strongly that women are to put out for their men no matter what! Women must stay at home and cook, clean and care for her children etc.

[OptomisticGirl]

I agree with Capricorn. The one woman in the world you need to be talking to is your wife.