My long-distance marriage

[ClarenceRutherford]

I'm saying this from experience, boys and girls.

I've lived in a sexless marriage.

 

On that sexless marriage forum, there are women there whose husband's haven't initiated for years!!! Some go 5-10 years without LM!!!!

 

Some women who had low drives and were content with only monthly or less, they suddenly realize what they've missed and 10 years later wake up and try initiating.

Only they find their years of constant neglect and witholding and blocking their husband's desires made their husbands lose their drives!!!

Now they cry and have many regrets for the hell they put their innocent partners through.

 

Trust me, withholding is like adultery or defrausing. I don't think those are too strong words. Sexual expression is a legitimate reason for getting married.

 

So please don't take personally my admonition to not go into a marriage thinking you can use your body to control your partner through rationing sexual affection. It never works and will likely backfire on you.

 

What if your partner did that? Withheld his affections to "punish" or "reward" you?

 

Yes, you retain your emotional and intellectual independence in marriage. No one would want it any other way. But you have to relinquish some of your sexual life to your partner, as in marriage you're supposed to share. And not hold grudges.

 

The part about the partners' body belongs to the other and how one shouldn't unilaterally (without discussing it) stop LM is from one of the books. This is all of course in a normal marriage where there isn't abuse, infidelity, etc.

[anthony4]

God, I see why some others don't participate on this board anymore.

 

I've felt that way too.

I think most people here mean well, but some come accross as not-so-compassionate, and seem to think

they can speak for any man/woman due to their own beliefs.

Many are very defiant and come accross as crass - I can't understand how they know so much given their history or lack of it.

I have a tendency to become defensive when i run accross advice like that.

My bad.

I'm not pointing any fingers in this thread, i just noticed your frustration.

hang in here, there is much knowledge here nonetheless

[OptomisticGirl]

There is a difference in your sex drive naturally diminishing and someone with holding sex to 'punish you' for not doing something. If my husband were to withhold sex because I did something he didn't like of course I would take offense to it, but if his drive were to leave him I wouldn't hold it against him.

 

He and I actually just had this conversation. For him (as a man) if I suddenly didn't want it would he leave me? No. Could he live without sex in marriage? Yes. It wouldn't be ideal but he could.

 

I think as long as you have the view that people HAVE to give up their bodies simply because you are married, you will have these problems.

[ClarenceRutherford]

There is a difference in your sex drive naturally diminishing and someone with holding sex to 'punish you' for not doing something. If my husband were to withhold sex because I did something he didn't like of course I would take offense to it, but if his drive were to leave him I wouldn't hold it against him.

 

He and I actually just had this conversation. For him (as a man) if I suddenly didn't want it would he leave me? No. Could he live without sex in marriage? Yes. It wouldn't be ideal but he could.

 

I think as long as you have the view that people HAVE to give up their bodies simply because you are married, you will have these problems.

I wasn't ever talking about sex drives naturally lessening. Of course things slow down as people age. I haven't really slowed, BTW, and don't imagine that happening for at least a decade or more.

 

Didn't say GIVE UP your body. Or have a partner DEMAND your body via force or intimidation.

Nor do I mean PITY or DUTY SEX.

I mean, SHARING your body. You're a gift you give to your partner that you share in love and only want to please them in every way possible.

 

Was referring to deliberate withholding and refusal.

There's a big diff.

 

Perhaps I've confused her lack of desire for refusal-- and took it personally.

[Fudgie]

FM,

 

I've read pretty much all the threads (here and elsewhere) you posted and I really don't think your wife is withholding to be mean. I feel that's wrong - to withhold sex to manipulate or to use it as a "tool" to get what you want from your partner. But I really don't think she's doing that at all. I think there is something going on legitimately and she isn't feeling up to it for a variety of reasons.

 

Trust me, if she were withholding sex to get something out of you, you'd know.

[Circe]

Yes, it is disgusting. It doesn't matter who decided to publish it in order to sell books and make money and what publishing house decided to put their name to it. The sentiment that "The wife/husband should give in to the other's desires ON A REGULAR BASIS even if he/she "doesn't feel like it" or has a low drive" is disgusting and revolting. I wouldn't even be able to look at a person who believed this let alone be married to them.

 

 

 

So, Circe, your husband should just turn off the spigot without any discussion or reason?

 

Maybe he should stop going into work or watching the kids as well.

Just do what HE wants.

 

Like Dr. Laura said, if a spouse wants to SELFISHLY stop LM, then he/she should end the marriage

 

If my husband wants to stop working he has my blessing. I would advise he did something with his time (as I think having nothing to do all day leads to depression) but he is under no obligation to go make a living. We've already had this discussion when I decided to retrain. We can afford for him to quit if he wants to and he's never to feel trapped or locked into his job. Quite frankly though - these are not equivalents. What people have a right to - is physical autonomy over their body. That means its a persons choice and decision whether or not to have sex. If they decide not to have sex without any discussion whatsoever - obviously they are putting their marriage at risk but that is their decision. Noone has a right to demand sex from someone else.

 

Sometimes the answer is just that a person's sex drive has declined significantly. If you don't want to be married to a person with a really low sex drive who doesn't want to just "give it up" whenever you demand it - your choice is to leave. Quite frankly, no - I would not leave in that situation. People can't help their sex drive and I would never force someone I loved to "give it up" for me.

 

Dr Laura? LOL - now I'm wondering how serious you are. Is this a joke? You're quoting Dr Laura? You know her PhD is in physiology, right? Nothing that qualifies her to have these opinions. Her doctoral thesis was on the effects of insulin in laboratory rats.

[ClarenceRutherford]

Jane, it's cruel and unfair IMHO and experience for a spouse to suddenly - without discussion - decide the other "can't take anything from that shelf anymore..."

 

Of course, it's her body but she's his now and he's her's- that's part of marriage.

That applies to ALL THINGS - not just the bedroom.

 

If she keeps refusing, I'm going to suggest counseling, as withholding is abnormal in a marriage. I've long despaired over this, taking it as some kind of personal failure. Like I used to think MB'ing was dirty or wrong (it is to porn). But I've awakened now and am not going to let her refusal destroy this marriage. I'm actively working to improve our emotional intimacy, as you've perceived.

 

And I am truly sorry I didn't put her sexual needs first. That was wrong of me and I have apologized to her for that.

 

Thanks again for your suggestions. I plan to put them to work soon.

[OptomisticGirl]

If your wife had been sexually abused before marriage would you feel the same?

[Circe]

Look, obviously you are going to insist on being the victim, continue to talk about the "innocent" spouse who is denied sex by the withholder who you equate to a cheater. You are also going to continue to express your view that a woman (or man) has no right to physical autonomy over their body and must give it up to their spouse. What is said by others here will make no difference. And you are entitled to ignore everything you don't like hearing, as you are doing.

 

I know I have nothing more to say except this - good luck.

[ClarenceRutherford]

Dr Laura? LOL - now I'm wondering how serious you are. Is this a joke? You're quoting Dr Laura? You know her PhD is in physiology, right? Nothing that qualifies her to have these opinions. Her doctoral thesis was on the effects of insulin in laboratory rats.

Haven't read Dr. Laura's book, The Care and Feeding of Husbands, but know of it and another poster quoted it to me on another board (same topic). So I think it's legit.

 

BTW, what I say goes for both spouses. I'm not just saying "women should do this and that for their husbands..." I'm sayin' it should be mutual.

----

From Sheet Music by Kevin Leman:

"Do not rob one another." The obligation is on both parties.

 

"I can be very direct with spouses when I'm talking about this. If you really love your spouse and he or she, to put it bluntly, really wants your body, you're being selfish if you withhold it.

That's not to say we're never selfish, because all of us are from time to time, but you can't make a marriage grow from a selfish attitude for a long period of time. Eventually, your selfishness will kill it."

 

---

This is where I'm getting some of my thinking. I haven't read the other books I have on this topic but have them on the shelf. Perhaps the others will offer some other views.

 

- Sheet Music: Uncovering the Secrets of Sexual Intimacy in Marriageby Kevin Leman

link removed[/url]

 

-Intimacy & Desire: Awaken the Passion in Your Relationship - Dr. David Schnarch P.h.D;

link removed

 

-Resurrecting Sex: Solving Sexual Problems and Revolutionizing Your Relationship - David Schnarch;

link removed

 

-Honey, I Don't Have a Headache Tonight: Help for Women Who Want to Feel More In the Mood - Shelia Wray Gregoire;

link removed

[OptomisticGirl]

It's legit but you haven't looked up the doctor's credentials? 0.o

 

I don't care if it goes both way, no one, even your husband OR wife has the right to tell you 'I'm sorry, it's your body but I want it therefore because we married you have to give it up to me' Perhaps I'm taking this wrong because I'm a sexual abuse survivor, I dunno.

 

And I think the selfness runs both ways. I think WANTING it when your spouse doesn't is also extremely selfish in itself because guess what? You aren't taking into account what your spouse wants.

 

I have said all I can here. I wish you the best of luck FM because with your current mindest on this, I don't think things are going to change but I truly wish you the best of luck.

[ClarenceRutherford]

Look, obviously you are going to insist on being the victim, continue to talk about the "innocent" spouse who is denied sex by the withholder who you equate to a cheater. You are also going to continue to express your view that a woman (or man) has no right to physical autonomy over their body and must give it up to their spouse. What is said by others here will make no difference. And you are entitled to ignore everything you don't like hearing, as you are doing.

 

I know I have nothing more to say except this - good luck.

Sorry you feel this way. If you truly think I'm misguided, you don't have to agree with what I post.

I however think sex is an integral part of marriage and am going to do everything I can to bring it back.

 

Circe, you've provided some good input in my threads, but you have also come down very hard on me and injected some false things.

You claimed I threatened to leave her if I didn't get sex, and that she only "put out" to keep me from leaving.

I never threatened her and you were way off base with that accusation.

 

I merely told her I wasn't happy with the situation and wanted to be more emotionally closer to her and hoped the great sex would follow. It is flowing again now, thank God.

 

Am sorry you're taking the cowardly postiion on this. And no, I'm not playing the victim card here.

FM,

I've read pretty much all the threads (here and elsewhere) you posted and I really don't think your wife is withholding to be mean. I feel that's wrong - to withhold sex to manipulate or to use it as a "tool" to get what you want from your partner. But I really don't think she's doing that at all. I think there is something going on legitimately and she isn't feeling up to it for a variety of reasons.

 

Trust me, if she were withholding sex to get something out of you, you'd know.

Fudge, you're on to something.

She has menopause and other hormonal issues, so I need to convince her to see a gynocologist.

 

We're working on that.

 

I'm not claiming I'm some great guy, but I really am in love with her.

As the chat I posted earlier in this thread (hopefully) shows, I'm more in love with her than I was 6-7 years ago.

 

Unfortunately, some posters thrashed me over posting that chat and think I was way over the top.

 

I still plan to post in this thread and hope other posters don't feel like they have to leave just bec. I don't agree with them. Never good to let disagreement get in the way of facts.

[Saffron_]

Point taken.

One reason I started this thread was to get people to sympathize with me and give me some validation. I expected this and that and....

 

Just expected a little diff. outcome. Or some support.

 

"Fla. Man, you're doing a good job. She'll eventually come around. Wish I had a husband like you..." or something.

 

"Try to neck with her more.... That drives women crazy..."

 

 

We wouldn't be helping if we only told you what you wanted to hear.

 

I don't think you're listening to the constructive criticisms that are being made. You're so busy being defensive because you don't like when others disagree with your judgement that you lash out. You need to stop looking for advice like "try to neck her more...that drives woman crazy" I mean, as a woman I look at that statement and thing ****!!! How can someone be so off the mark. That totally ignores the root of the problem. The point I was trying to make was that you come accross as very sexually aggressive. Look at how your posts are written. What you might see as passion and dedication to fixing your marriage, others (including your wife) might see you as overpowering and intimidating.

 

A couple of examples:

You mentioned at some point that when you were having sex with your wife, she was tensed up and it was painful for her so you had to stop. Those are very clear signs that a woman doesn't want to have sex but has feels oblliged or pressured to do so. You also mentioned that when you were talking to her about how much you loved her and couldn't live without her that she responded 'you want sex'.

 

Now, don't think I in any way think a sexless relationship is fine (unless both are happy that way) because I don't. But IMO the way you're trying to 'fix things' won't work. I think you lack a lot of understanding about women (reading Dr Laura whoever the hell that is won't help!) and I can't believe any woman worth her salt would offer advice like 'try necking more'. Any women on here offering that kind of advice? Of course not. Uggh it makes me cringe just thinking about it. Now you may not like what I have to say and I'm pretty damn certain it's not what you want to hear, but it's honest feedback. Take it or leave it. Giving nicey nicey 'Oh everything will be fine, you're such a good husband' advice might make someone feel better but it doesn't help them with their problem. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear.

 

Just one last important point to make:

If you're not willing to surrender your body to your spouse, please don't get married.

You have no right to defraud your future spouse of your body which he has every right to expect to enjoy on a regular basis.

 

 

You have absolutely NO RIGHT over another persons body EVER!

[Fudgie]

Okay, so I gave it some thought and now I've come back to this thread. I think I know a little more about what I want to say and hopefully, it will help.

 

FM - I think you're frustrated, sad, and a little angry that your wife would/will not ML to you. However, I'm a big believer in INTENTIONS. You have to look not so much at the action itself but the intention behind it. Look at the intention and let that decide how you're going to react or deal with the situation.

 

Action: My wife doesn't have sex with me anymore or barely at all. It has just stopped.

 

But WHY? I understand your frustration but I think in some cases, you have just taken it to mean REJECTION and you took it personally. You thought you were "refused" and she was "withholding" it. But whoa whoa, can you see the assumptions you have made? we have to look at this in a different light.

 

I would be very upset and angry if my partner stopped sex for these reasons I'm angry at Fudgie and instead of talking to her about it, I'm going to withhold sex, that will show her! OR I want _____ and if I withhold sex long enough, maybe she will give in to me!

This is very, very wrong. I think it's wrong to use sex as a manipulation tool in any marriage/relationship. And yes, I'd be really upset if someone did this to me. And I will never do it to someone else.

 

But let's look at OTHER reasons for why someone wouldn't want sex I'm sad/emotional lately...I just can't bring myself to do it. I'm not in love or attracted to my partner anymore. I feel like all he wants is sex and this is a turn-off. Hormonal imbalance/lowered sex drive.

 

As you can see, the above reasons are not mean or manipulative. Really try to see that...this isn't a slight against you and she's not doing it to be mean. You may say "well, these are my needs" and yes, indeed they are. And I'm sure she knows this too. But when you don't want sex, you simply can't force it. And you never should. By going through sex without wanting it, you've undermined it. It hurts the relationship. No matter how much you want to ML, FM, if your wife doesn't want it, it's not LM. It's cold sex. It's just an action without any real meaning to it. She needs to want it too. Luckily, if you're both willing, you can work on this.

 

I don't think that ANY husband or wife should surrender their body to their spouse. It's always a choice. My body is my own and it will always be that way. However, I think that when the frequency of sex decreases significantly, the partners need to work together to find a way to make sex desirable again. If I no longer wanted sex, I would talk to my partner about it, because I know that it's a need and I need to be considerate of him and I would want to be so. But I am never obligated to give up my body if I don't want to just because he wants it. If reconciliation is not possible and one is unhappy, then it is time to leave.

[Fudgie]

Another thought...

 

There have been maybe 1-2x that I genuinely wanted to have sex with B but he just wasn't up to it (this happened during the summer, I think?). I initiated and he told me no, that he hurt and he just wasn't up to it. I was sad, yes, but I accepted it, because I know that his drive is low and he was hurting.

 

The thought that came into my mind was "I am a little sad; I wish he wanted it too." I did not think "I am a little sad; I wish he would let me do it to him."

 

I couldn't enjoy sex knowing that my partner didn't want it. I just couldn't. Yes, sex feels great. But I want my partner to want me, to desire sex, or else it's just meaningless to me. To think that here I am, doing it, and all the while B is hurting beneath me (I say that because we only do on top) and NOT enjoying himself...it just completely kills it for me. I don't want to do it unless he wants it too.

 

For me, sex without emotion or desire is nothing.

[Capricorn3]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread, but after reading this response I just had to say that I totally agree with all of the above. I think velvette nailed it. I strongly believe that any women who stops having sex with her husband for so many years has more or less checked out of the marriage a long time ago due to her not being happy, not satisfied, in many parts of the marriage - be it sex or otherwise. To me it is more than obvious that this is her way of telling you that she is not happy with things, she is not having her needs met (and I don't necessarily mean in a sexual way). Women need a lot more than simple sex to make them happy. When reading the way sex has been in your marriage, I'm sorry to say that I can see exactly WHY she shut down and never went back - it was all about you, (you don't seem to know much about a woman's body or how it works at all), it was NOT satisfying to her in any way, shape of form etc etc. Not surprising she closed the door, so to speak.

 

What other things do you do for her? (I am not talking about hugging, giving massages etc). What is the marriage like in other areas? Do you go out, wine and dine, go to movies, do you clean the house, do you occasionally cook and wash up etc etc? Do you two enjoy some hobbies together, go cycling, or whatever?

 

Personally, I think it is going to take a lot of work to make this a happy, successful, and healthy marriage (I feel she's checked out a long time ago). I can only strongly recommend marriage counselling, or any other form of professional counselling, either both together, or for a start, for yourself.

 

Side note: I also totally agree with all of saffron_'s posts. I don't think the way you are going about "fixing things" is going to work. I too baulked at the "try necking more" comment, lol.

 

Good luck.

[truegrit]

I have one comment.........a few pages back you said something that really got my attention. Can't find it right now to do an exact quote but you said basically "we ML 3 times on this particular day and that PROVES she loves me" It appears to me that you might have love and sex combined into one and maybe that's your problem.

 

Having sex with someone husband or not 3 times in one day is no PROOF of being in love. I could go on about this but won't. Just wanted to call attention to that post.

[ClarenceRutherford]

FM - I think you're frustrated, sad, and a little angry that your wife would/will not ML to you. However, I'm a big believer in INTENTIONS. You have to look not so much at the action itself but the intention behind it. Look at the intention and let that decide how you're going to react or deal with the situation.

That makes a lot of sense.

Action: My wife doesn't have sex with me anymore or barely at all. It has just stopped.

But WHY? I understand your frustration but I think in some cases, you have just taken it to mean REJECTION and you took it personally. You thought you were "refused" and she was "withholding" it. But whoa whoa, can you see the assumptions you have made? we have to look at this in a different light.

Yes, I did take this all personally. Another rejection. I've been rejected since college, esp. in my 20s. Marriage isn't supposed to be this way. I shouldn't have a wife that constantly says, "no..."

 

That's one reason I got intensely involved - and later addicted - to straight, regular porn. I'm off it now, since Oct. thanks to some female friends online.

As you can see, the above reasons are not mean or manipulative. Really try to see that...this isn't a slight against you and she's not doing it to be mean. You may say "well, these are my needs" and yes, indeed they are. And I'm sure she knows this too. But when you don't want sex, you simply can't force it. And you never should. By going through sex without wanting it, you've undermined it. It hurts the relationship. No matter how much you want to ML, FM, if your wife doesn't want it, it's not LM. It's cold sex. It's just an action without any real meaning to it. She needs to want it too. Luckily, if you're both willing, you can work on this.

Guess I can't change her. She has to want it. Got to get her to read those books I quoted above. Or go to counseling. Or end this marriage, as LM is vitally important to any marriage and esp. mine. I'm not going to go another decade without enjoying my soulmate physically.

when the frequency of sex decreases significantly, the partners need to work together to find a way to make sex desirable again. If I no longer wanted sex, I would talk to my partner about it, because I know that it's a need and I need to be considerate of him and I would want to be so. But I am never obligated to give up my body if I don't want to just because he wants it. If reconciliation is not possible and one is unhappy, then it is time to leave.

That's the thing... she never talked to me about it. A long time ago, she just started refusing. I can't remember when this all started. I'm thinking around 2000 when I got laid off and had a hard time finding a job.

 

Didn't know what to do. I asked her why. Never got an answer. Asked her if she thinks her best friend who intro'd us or her sister do that to their husbands. Asked her to talk with one of them, privately, about what they get out of sex and how maybe my wife could get desire and want it more. She never wants to bring that topic up, even privately.

 

She's supposed to want me physically, not deflect me or tell me to go away. I'm supposed to be welcomed by her. I'm the one that went to the altar with her, for God's sake, not someone else.

I strongly believe that any women who stops having sex with her husband for so many years has more or less checked out of the marriage a long time ago due to her not being happy, not satisfied, in many parts of the marriage - be it sex or otherwise. To me it is more than obvious that this is her way of telling you that she is not happy with things, she is not having her needs met (and I don't necessarily mean in a sexual way).

 

Women need a lot more than simple sex to make them happy. When reading the way sex has been in your marriage, I'm sorry to say that I can see exactly WHY she shut down and never went back - it was all about you, (you don't seem to know much about a woman's body or how it works at all), it was NOT satisfying to her in any way, shape of form etc etc. Not surprising she closed the door, so to speak.

I admit I knew very little about sex and pleasing a woman. Why couldn't she have given me some tips? Another woman I knew in the past told me some things, and it helped -- during our "everything but" sex play. (I wouldn't last during that activity).

What other things do you do for her? (I am not talking about hugging, giving massages etc). What is the marriage like in other areas? Do you go out, wine and dine, go to movies, do you clean the house, do you occasionally cook and wash up etc etc? Do you two enjoy some hobbies together, go cycling, or whatever?

Yes, aside from the physical distance between us, things have been generally okay.

We live as and appear to be a happy couple.

We go to dinners, go bicycling, visit friends, etc. I do clean the house and prepare meals.

I think a lot of the problems involves a stressful job and hormonal issues. She gets hot flashes and has to have the AC at like 68 at night, almost freezing for me.

 

Gonna recommend her visit a gynocologist as she's been very tight. She agreed that would be a good idea. The lube we've used (another thing I knew nothing of) has also helped.

Personally, I think it is going to take a lot of work to make this a happy, successful, and healthy marriage (I feel she's checked out a long time ago). I can only strongly recommend marriage counselling, or any other form of professional counselling, either both together, or for a start, for yourself.

Gonna disagree about "checking out." Though you may be right about that.

 

Years ago, it hit me that she's doing this to drive me away, as she told me when we dated as a Catholic, she doesn't believe in (or wouldn't initiate) divorce.

Side note: I also totally agree with all of saffron_'s posts. I don't think the way you are going about "fixing things" is going to work. I too baulked at the "try necking more" comment, lol.

That suggestion was from a HS friend who I PM on facebook. She told me that gets to her and guys can go a long ways with that with her....

But I guess not every woman feels the same on that kind of thing.

 

Hey, I'm a man and don't know much about this kind of thing so I seek help where I can find it. That advice - like the woman on another board who liked and told me that was good for me to tell my wife how lonely I am, how much I miss her and how I'm nothing without her- was legitimately given.

 

I did try to neck with her but she seemed resistant and like she doesn't like necking, afraid she'll get a hickey. Gonna try some more, however, and go about it a little less intense and not be all over her lovely body.

 

----

The good news all this is changing. We're much closer emotionally and she's not actively resisiting me sexually anymore. We ML 1-2X a week, when I was with her over the holidays.

 

Marriage counseling is a good idea and I'm going to suggest it if we dont' get sexually closer.

Yes, I'm going to set some hidden deadlines once she returns. If they're not met, counseling will be in order.

 

 

Let me add this: Thank you Fudgie and Capricon for staying involved in this thread and not grabbing your balls and leaving the gym in a huff.

Just as those other posters may say things I don't like, well.... I say things they don't like, so that shouldn't mean someone gets all offended and rush off. That never solves anything.

[OptomisticGirl]

People leave threads when they realize the advice they are trying to give is not being taken in because the poster refuses to see it and only becomes defensive.

[ClarenceRutherford]

I have one comment.........a few pages back you said something that really got my attention. Can't find it right now to do an exact quote but you said basically "we ML 3 times on this particular day and that PROVES she loves me" It appears to me that you might have love and sex combined into one and maybe that's your problem.

 

Having sex with someone husband or not 3 times in one day is no PROOF of being in love. I could go on about this but won't. Just wanted to call attention to that post.

Here's the quote.

On Tgiving. weekend Sunday, she let me ML with her 3 separate X, primarily bec. I couldn't finish

.....

We're cuddling most nights when we're together. (We haven't really cuddled much in the last 10 years).

She and I can't get enough of that embracing and kissing.

 

I just can't believe she doesn't love me. A woman that would let me ML with her for THREE TIMES that day.... that has to be love. I can feel it.

Yes, it does sound like I may be confusing sex with love, BUT WE'RE MARRIED, where there's SUPPOSED to be love....

 

But I know one partner may not be as "in love" with the other and may withdraw. I'm keeping my eyes open for that.

 

May have to eat my words one day if she leaves, but I think she genuinely loves me.

And I told her I thought that showed me her care for me and my needs. I mean, ONE TIME that Sun. would have been good. But THREE TIMES? I was like in heaven.

 

But then again, I never really had casual sex or a lot of sex outside of marriage or a long-term monogomous relationship, so I may be a virgin or very naive on this kind of thing, just like I really didn't know much about her garden or satisfying her -- until I started reading those books.

[OptomisticGirl]

Sex and love go hand in hand and yet, they don't. Do I show my partner I DESIRE him when we have sex? Sure. Do I show him that I love him through sex? Yes and no. It's not the SOLE way to show someone you love them. I think you may be equating how much she wants you solely on how much she DESIRES you and the two are separate emotions.

[ClarenceRutherford]

People leave threads when they realize the advice they are trying to give is not being taken in because the poster refuses to see it and only becomes defensive.

Yes, I am defensive. Have any of you ever gone without sexual intimacy FOR YEARS? Maybe get a bone thrown to you once a year, then it's nothing special and you can sense it?

Do you know what that can do to your confidence as a man?

 

I am not trying to act like a victim here and I am reading each and every post. I plan to follow the advice given.

 

Yes, OptomisticGirl, I can't make you stay. Just like other relationships I've had. "I can't make you love me if you dont..." as the Bonnie Raitt song says.

So leave if you like... you have to want to stay. You won't be the first and only one in a long line.

But I AM taking into consideration what's being said, despite my defensiveness.

[ClarenceRutherford]

Sex and love go hand in hand and yet, they don't. Do I show my partner I DESIRE him when we have sex? Sure. Do I show him that I love him through sex? Yes and no. It's not the SOLE way to show someone you love them. I think you may be equating how much she wants you solely on how much she DESIRES you and the two are separate emotions.

This is a good point, similar to what Fudgie earlier said.

Thanks for offering it.

I have been confusing her lack of desire for refusal-- and took it personally.

 

I tend to have thin skin and overreact to things.

 

A little about my childhood My parents divorced when I was 5 (1967). My little brother and I lived with an abusive stepfather during the 70s until I wised up and moved in with my dad in another state in HS.

 

My bro. didn't get married until he was 39 and I married "late" at 34. Neither of us plan to have children.

 

I have to believe our horrible childhoods affected the way we interact with women and has given me a lot of insecurities and make me take things too personally.

[OptomisticGirl]

Yes, I am defensive. Have any of you ever gone without sexual intimacy FOR YEARS? Maybe get a bone thrown to you once a year, then it's nothing special and you can sense it?

Do you know what that can do to your confidence as a man?

 

I am not trying to act like a victim here and I am reading each and every post. I plan to follow the advice given.

 

Yes, I can't make you stay. Just like other relationships I've had. "I can't make you love me if you dont..." as the Bonnie Raitt song says.

So leave if you like... you have to want to stay.

But I AM taking into consideration what's being said, despite my defensiveness.

 

My ex stopped having sex with me the last 2 years of our relationship. Porn got him off more than having sex with me. So yeah, I understand.

 

For me it's the view point of 'when you are married you have to give your body to your partner when they won't. If you don't you are being selfish' Maybe it comes from being a victim of sexual abuse, I dunno, but it rubs me wrong.

 

As I said, a very good friend of mine is in the same boat as you. He handled it as he loves his wife and he's fine with pleasuring himself over their marriage ending.

[ClarenceRutherford]

My ex stopped having sex with me the last 2 years of our relationship. Porn got him off more than having sex with me. So yeah, I understand.

 

For me it's the view point of 'when you are married you have to give your body to your partner when they won't. If you don't you are being selfish' Maybe it comes from being a victim of sexual abuse, I dunno, but it rubs me wrong.

As I confessed earlier, I did do porn, but only the "regular" man and woman stuff, nothing weird or sick. I esp. liked foreplay and kissing.

 

I don't think that affected my desire for my wife as I kind of used it as a substitute, but it certainly kept me at the computer and not cuddling next to her in bed where I might have made some progress in wooing her back sexually to me.

As I said, a very good friend of mine is in the same boat as you. He handled it as he loves his wife and he's fine with pleasuring himself over their marriage ending.

He may be fine with that but I can't rely on masturbation. I still MB, but it in no way compares to the real thing and is a poor substitute.

 

Another confession I now fantasize about my wife while MB'ing.

I recall sexual times together, things she said to me during the act, things I said to her, etc. I even find myself vocalizing some of that.

It kind of scares me like I'm living in the past or something.

 

But at least I'm not lusting towards a woman in a porn vid and wishing she was with me. That made me uncomfortable and thanks to prodding of women on the LoveShack forum, I've removed all those images from my hard drive and have been porn free since Oct. Oh, I've been tempted a couple of times to do a quick web search and MB to an image, but realize I don't need images to get satisfaction.

 

BTW,... thanks for staying with this thread.