My long-distance marriage

[OptomisticGirl]

Yeah, a man has the right to say no to sex as well. I'm sorry but just because you marry someone doesn't give you a right to say 'sorry, if you don't want sex it's not your right to unilaterly call and end to it'. I love my fiance but when I become his wife in a little over a week, it still remains MY body, not his.

 

It is not a marriage if one 'gives in to the other's desire on a regular basis even if they don't feel like it'. If this is how you think I can honestly see why you are having problems. She is not your property. If she doesn't want sex guess what? SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO GIVE IT TO YOU just as you don't have to give it to her. This is what I'm talking about. You say you are fine with a sexless marriage but in reality, you are not. Becuase to you even if she feels bad or if she no longer wants it she should still give it to you.

 

So how exactly can you sleep at night if she were to do that? She isn't having sex with you because she wants you or wants to. She is doing it because you deem she has to. That is not an equal marriage....

 

And no. I don't care if someone tells you you are never having sex with them again, that does not give you the RIGHT to go out and cheat. If a husband looks else were it isn't the wife's fault he's a scumbag, it's his own.

 

Those marriage vows 'for better or for worse' include these times as well.

[ClarenceRutherford]

Yeah, a man has the right to say no to sex as well. I'm sorry but just because you marry someone doesn't give you a right to say 'sorry, if you don't want sex it's not your right to unilaterly call and end to it'. I love my fiance but when I become his wife in a little over a week, it still remains MY body, not his.

If you're not willing to surrender your body to your spouse, please don't get married. Don't keep your distance and try to "control" him by rationing your sexual affection. Remain single and independent.

You have no right to defraud your future spouse of your body which he has every right to expect to enjoy on a regular basis.

 

It is not a marriage if one 'gives in to the other's desire on a regular basis even if they don't feel like it'. If this is how you think I can honestly see why you are having problems. She is not your property. If she doesn't want sex guess what? SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO GIVE IT TO YOU just as you don't have to give it to her. This is what I'm talking about. You say you are fine with a sexless marriage but in reality, you are not. Becuase to you even if she feels bad or if she no longer wants it she should still give it to you.

Yes it is a marriage. Spouses should pleaure the other spouse just as they do many other non-sexual things like flushing the toilet or putting away clothes.

So how exactly can you sleep at night if she were to do that? She isn't having sex with you because she wants you or wants to. She is doing it because you deem she has to. That is not an equal marriage....

 

And no. I don't care if someone tells you you are never having sex with them again, that does not give you the RIGHT to go out and cheat. If a husband looks else were it isn't the wife's fault he's a scumbag, it's his own.

I didn't imply it's right to commit adultery. I have never been on any side of infidelity and am not planning to now. Cheating is the cowardly thing to do. If I can't get what I want, I'll leave.

Those marriage vows 'for better or for worse' include these times as well.

Well, thank God we're moving away from the dreary sexless part. She's clearly showed her sexual interest in me, though I want it more than once a week. So we have some work to do.

Once a week is clearly preferable to once a friggin' year!!!

That's almost intolerable, Christian woman or not!

 

Yes, I'm angry. I didn't start this thread to get into a fight about sexual frequency.

 

If a spouse doesn't want to regularly ML, said spouse should have informed the other spouse (50% of the marriage) of his/her plans or not get married. That''s fraud.

I have many who agree with that view.

 

No, I don't view her as property, as the husband's body is figuratively property of the wife's, and vice versa.

True, I can't chain her to me or make her do things, but a marriage is a joining together.

 

Here's what someone else told me on another board:

if one partner is withholding sex, they are wanting a brother-sister relationship, not a Marrage

If she does not want to, then Marry someone who does

And you can still be Brother and Sister and Friendly to each other

Nothing will even change

I'm going to try to implement the constructive advice Janeiac recommended.

 

I've bought a bunch of books on improving our sex life, Christian and non-Christian. Gonna try to get her to read some. She's read some with me, and I've quoted from the marital sex books as well as books on reigniting marriages.

 

 

If she still refuses, I'm gonna insist on counseling bec. I can't live in a sexless marriage anymore.

6-7 years is too long. I'm near 50 now and can't take this rejection, which feels like the rejection I got when I was in my 20s when I was a good guy who didn't pressure women for sex and really looked for their best interest. Look where that got me. A load of regrets. Marriage isn't supposed to be like this.

[ClarenceRutherford]

I HAVE NEVER TURNED DOWN MY WIFE. I NEVER WITHHELD. I WAS ALWAYS AVAILABLE FOR HER WHETHER I FELT LIKE IT OR NOT. True, I always felt in the mood, but still.....

 

I have also never cheated nor seriously considered adultery.

 

Some of the women I've PM'd here and on other boards tell me they never witheld from their spouses... One man prefers to view porn over her... Another has no sexual interest in her and it breaks her heart that he won't initiate. She always has to initiate and he rejects her!!

 

Now I'm getting all negative, which wasn't the purpose of this thread.

This thread wasn't called "Long time refused...." But look what it's turned into.

I regret starting it.

 

So I'm gonna calm down now and not let all this get to me and instead look to improve our emotional intimacy and sex life.

[OptomisticGirl]

But you are ignoring the basic aspect of marriage: people CHANGE. Change is the only constant thing in life and in marriage. Marriages fail when people don't change together, as is this case. Can your wife give you more sex? Sure, that will make you happy. But what about what makes HER happy? What if she's happy with the way the sex life is? It doesn't make what you want wrong by any means (I myself am a very sexual person) but as you said, it's a marriage. Your needs aren't the only one that has to be met.

 

 

There is a reason the word OBEY is being taken out of my marriage vows. I will GIVE my body to my husband but I will not SURREDNER it to him because it's MY body. As I said, people change. You can't say 'oh, we had sex before marriage and now that we aren't it's fraud' because it's NOT fraud, it's life. People change, sex drives lower and rise. What happens when you lose yours? What happens when you can't get it up any more? How would you feel if she were pressuring you like you are her? Saying it's 'fraud' is like saying 'you were young and hot when we met.. what happened?' Ah, age happened buddy.

 

You want things to change in your marriage but you can't except that she has changed, and until you do I"ll bet you stay in the position you are in. You want her to change for you... well, what are you going to do to change for her?

[OptomisticGirl]

You have no right to defraud your future spouse of your body which he has every right to expect to enjoy on a regular basis.

 

Wow. Yeah, if my fiance had this view point he def. wouldn't be getting any from me and would not be married for long TO me.

[ClarenceRutherford]

From a book I've been reading:

 

Good lovers learn to know their lover better than they know themselves. You've got to stop viewing sex through your perception alone and start viewing it through your spouse's eyes. If you can do that - understanding your spouse's rulebook in the process - just about everything else will fall into place. Great marital sex is about learning to love someone else the way he or she wants to be loved.

 

In so many marriages, when a spouse gets turned down, the seeds of bitterness are planted in the relationship to the point where, later in the day, the wife asks the husband to take her mother grocery shopping and he says he can't.

Why not? You're just watching the game?

I'm busy.

You don't look busy.

Author says it's a delayed reaction.

When a man's hopes are regularly beaten down, anger, hostility and resentment will eventually fill that house.

 

So much of who we are as men is tied up in how our wives respond to us sexually.

 

A fulfilling sex life is sort of like putting your husband on a rechargeable battery.

 

Sex is energizing for a man. It builds confidence in him and creates an overall sense of well-being.

 

If sex becomes a real problem issue in a marriage, it's often some kind of power struggle over "who's the boss."

 

A good lover works just as hard outside the bedroom as does inside it.

 

---

OptomisticGirl

Originally Posted by

FloridaMan

You have no right to defraud your future spouse of your body which he has every right to expect to enjoy on a regular basis.

 

Wow. Yeah, if my fiance had this view point he def. wouldn't be getting any from me and would not be married for long TO me.

 

So going into a marriage PLANNING TO RATION your sexual affection is some sort of power-play and selfish.

[OptomisticGirl]

FM, I honestly don't mean to come accross as bashing you. Maybe it's just the matter of fact way you are saying your wife HAS to give you sex that is rubbing me wrong. I dunno. I do not plan on rationing sex to my husband. When I want I will inititiate and when he wants it he can initiate. If the other wants it then, great. If one doesn't well there is always another time. If one of us loses our sex drive we will do whatever we can to fix it but if it's lost well, marriage isn't just about sex. I love my fiance enough that if we couldn't have sex, for whatever reason, I would rather pleasure myself and still have an emotionally intake marriage than a marriage riddled with fights and reaction.

 

And if you are reading that then you need to take into effect one of the first sentences. You've got to stop viewing sex through your perception alone and start viewing it through your spouse's eyes You need to do this, not just your wife.

[ClarenceRutherford]

But you are ignoring the basic aspect of marriage: people CHANGE. Change is the only constant thing in life and in marriage. Marriages fail when people don't change together, as is this case. Can your wife give you more sex? Sure, that will make you happy. But what about what makes HER happy? What if she's happy with the way the sex life is? It doesn't make what you want wrong by any means (I myself am a very sexual person) but as you said, it's a marriage. Your needs aren't the only one that has to be met.

No, but a marriage involves TWO PEOPLE.

Am well aware of her needs. As I said in another thread, I never really considered her physical needs. I only wanted to make sure she was "ready" for me.

I didn't even know what the word labia meant! And was never familiar with that area of her, as I wasn't allowed -- or didn't know any better -- to do much there except enter.

 

After reading these books, I understand women, esp. as they age, need longer periods of foreplay and may not need insertion. The cuddling, foreplay and other things I can do short of insertion (don't want to get TMI) can be just as fulfilling.

 

I was only interested in her vagina for my pleasure, not necessarily her's, first.

I told her I regret this selfish attitude that didn't really consider her needs and pledged to be much more sensitive in all areas of our marriage.

 

For ex., I never knew anything about a female orgasm. She has never had one with anyone, or by herself.

I told her I want to help give her one. The book I'm reading goes into this.

 

She had only one partner, a former fiance whom she engaged in sex with after engagement, about 10 years before me. He cheated on her and left to marry someone else.

I had very limited experience.

There is a reason the word OBEY is being taken out of my marriage vows. I will GIVE my body to my husband but I will not SURREDNER it to him because it's MY body. As I said, people change. You can't say 'oh, we had sex before marriage and now that we aren't it's fraud' because it's NOT fraud, it's life.

People change, sex drives lower and rise.

What happens when you lose yours? What happens when you can't get it up any more? How would you feel if she were pressuring you like you are her? Saying it's 'fraud' is like saying 'you were young and hot when we met.. what happened?' Ah, age happened buddy.

I hear you here. Honestly, I don't want to FORCE her to do anything.

 

On any LD I may encounter, couples can do other things besides PIV, but she in the past has never let me pleasure her in any of those ways. Our sex has always been straight vanilla. No oral.

 

That's changing though. She's starting to caress me. I'm bringing up letting me give her oral ( I don't have to have her give me oral- I just want to give it to her). And I'm doing more things "down there."

 

One of the books I'm reading goes into senior sex and tells how to deal with it.

You want things to change in your marriage but you can't except that she has changed, and until you do I"ll bet you stay in the position you are in. You want her to change for you... well, what are you going to do to change for her?

I AM changing, as evidenced by my expressive posts.

 

Aside from sex, I gave her my new car, for ex., which I recently paid off -- I don't commute, so thought she could use my 4-yr. old car vs. her 10+ year old car. Don't know why I offered it.

 

Am sorry I got super defensive about this. I could quote that "Long Time Refused" thread I started and show other things that I'm proactively doing to reverse the course this ship's on...

 

I really do love her and want what's best for both us. God, I miss ML with her. We're more emotionally intimate, so the sex has to follow, right?

[OptomisticGirl]

Yes, a marriage is two people but there comes a point in a marriage were the poeple in it change. When they change against each other they fail. You have to change together, roll with the punches together. If you don't, then it becomes a marriage of one, not two.

 

I think though you have to realize there may be no way to save it. What if she just doesn't want sex anymore?

[ClarenceRutherford]

Please re-read my last post. I edited in some things you may not have seen by the time you posted.

----

I think though you have to realize there may be no way to save it. What if she just doesn't want sex anymore?

This marriage isn't dead.

We are making headway.

 

After that crisis weekend I had in Oct., she flew down for a visit and we ML during that beach resort weekend.

On Tgiving. weekend Sunday, she let me ML with her 3 separate X, primarily bec. I couldn't finish.

We ML some more over the Christmas holidays.

 

We're cuddling most nights when we're together. (We haven't really cuddled much in the last 10 years).

She and I can't get enough of that embracing and kissing.

 

I just can't believe she doesn't love me. A woman that would let me ML with her for THREE TIMES that day.... that has to be love. I can feel it.

 

Plus, we're vocalizing our love more. And we're missing each other more.

And giving each other longer and stronger hugs at the airport

 

We're on the phone most every night now, when it used to be once every 2-3 nights.

Whenever I get to feeling lonely, I give her a call.

 

I'm not ready to call this marriage a failure.

[OptomisticGirl]

Just because she may not want sex doesn't mean she doesn't love you. The two can be separate feelings at times.

[Circe]

This is disgusting. You may as well be advocating marital rape. Noone, male or female, should have to give in to having sex in any context or any situation if they don't want it. You can address the reasons they don't want it and try to change their mind that way but at the end of the day if they don't want it you have a decision to stay or go. I think OG has said it perfectly. This comment below ... Wow ... What an attitude.

[Circe]

Suspicious? Of what?

Instead of speaking in riddles, how about being a little more direct?

 

Suspicious that you are an undercover advocate for atheism?

[Circe]

Floridaman this post has been about sex because your two or three OPs made it about sex. You can post selective "evidence" to contradict it but why bother?

 

You said things are good on the sex front now. In this same thread you have said that if things don't improve on th sex front you will leave. Which is it? Rhetorical qn btw.

[velvette]

the way you bold things in every post annoys me because I read the whole post, no need to bold and italicize certain things. aha. it's a bit distracting.

 

also you seem to be placing way too much importance on sex. you can not equate love with sex drive, and you can't say "I HAVE NEVER REFUSED HER!!!!", only referring to sex. I'm sure you've refused her emotionally or in other ways, or SOMEthing so that she withdraws sexually. if she's truly fulfilled in all her needs and happy/secure in the relationship, then she'd be open for sex. sure she's (technically) 50% at fault, but since you're the one looking for change in this department you'll have to make the moves.

 

 

and so it makes sense, when you said you were only interested her vagina for your pleasure. when did you realize a woman had needs too? and because you only cared about your own pleasure, you basically did 'refuse' her, even when she asked for it. of course she'd initiate less and less the more she finds how much it's centered on you. bet after you came that was the end of it! I'm assuming you only recently realized that sex is not just about you... with the labia and stuff. it's good that you're trying to change things, but know it will take time. after all, how much of that bad sex history do you have ingrained on her mind? yes, she could've done her own research and sought out ways to teach you herself, so she's very well half to blame here. but again, you're the one looking for change, so.

 

get a sex/relationship counselor, if things don't look up soon. I'm sure they have better ways to get the relationship on track.

[OptomisticGirl]

I agree 100% with this. You are screaming that it's all about you, you, you, you and the fact she's denying you but if you were always denying her her orgasm or just doing it get yourself off well, it's ALWAYS been about you, you, you. Now it's time for it to be about her, her, her.

[ClarenceRutherford]

God, I see why some others don't participate on this board anymore.

[OptomisticGirl]

We are only giving you our opinion. If you don't agree with it ignore it. You can't have everyone always agree with your line of thinking.

[ClarenceRutherford]

No it's not disgusting and it isn't in any way shape or form advocating marital rape.

The comments came from a noted book on marital sex.

 

I will repeat it.

NO SPOUSE HAS A RIGHT TO UNILATERLY CALL AND END TO SEXUAL RELATIONS. The marriage isn't only about that spouse.

 

So, Circe, your husband should just turn off the spigot without any discussion or reason?

 

Maybe he should stop going into work or watching the kids as well.

Just do what HE wants.

 

Like Dr. Laura said, if a spouse wants to SELFISHLY stop LM, then he/she should end the marriage.

[OptomisticGirl]

No it's not disgusting and it isn't in any way shape or form advocating marital rape.

The comments came from a noted book on marital sex.

 

I will repeat it.

NO SPOUSE HAS A RIGHT TO UNILATERLY CALL AND END TO SEXUAL RELATIONS. The marriage isn't only about that spouse.

 

So, Circe, your husband should just turn off the spigot without any discussion or reason?

 

Maybe he should stop going into work or watching the kids as well.

Just do what HE wants.

 

Like Dr. Laura said, if a spouse wants to SELFISHLY stop LM, then he/she should end the marriage.

 

But sometimes the person who doesn't want sex doesn't know why they don't want it any more! This is were communication comes into play. And if you find out it's a lowered sex drive and you try everything to up that sex drive and it still doesn't work it's not that person's fault! You act like it's your wife's fault she no longer wants sex. Perhaps to some degree but she's what, in her 50's? Sex drives decline with age. It's a fact. Some people have sex well into their 80's but other's don't.

 

This isn't a 'until death' marrige. It's a 'I'll love you until you stop giving me sex marriage' is the way you are portraying yourself here. You ARE advocating marital rape becuase you are saying that no matter what a spouse HAS to give it up and should not EVER withhold maritial sex from their partner. That's having sex when that person doesn't want to. Hence, that is martial rape.

[ClarenceRutherford]

the way you bold things in every post annoys me because I read the whole post, no need to bold and italicize certain things. aha. it's a bit distracting.

 

also you seem to be placing way too much importance on sex. you can not equate love with sex drive, and you can't say "I HAVE NEVER REFUSED HER!!!!", only referring to sex. I'm sure you've refused her emotionally or in other ways, or SOMEthing so that she withdraws sexually. if she's truly fulfilled in all her needs and happy/secure in the relationship, then she'd be open for sex. sure she's (technically) 50% at fault, but since you're the one looking for change in this department you'll have to make the moves.

This is constructive, velvette.

I'll tone down the bolding. I only do that to get points accross and stress the urgency.

 

Yes, I did become emotionally distant in the past and did things that weren't helpful to our marriage - like stay an extra day over the weekend on bus. trips to pursue my hobby, leaving her alone at home. Wasn't very smart.

But then again, I was being refused and it sometimes felt better being away from her as I constantly got rejected.

and so it makes sense, when you said you were only interested her vagina for your pleasure. when did you realize a woman had needs too?

Only recently after reading a couple of books on Christian marital sex and visiting a web forum on said topic.

Oct. is when I had that breakdown during a lonely weekend when I was pursuing a hobby out of town.

I cried and became more upset that my wife wouldn't ML with me anymore, didn't find me sexually attractive and I felt like our marriage was over.

 

Came to heavy tears after hearing breakup songs from the 70s and early 80s that reminded me of past breakups and romantic failures.

 

I started reading the books and it hit me how wrong I had been.

and because you only cared about your own pleasure, you basically did 'refuse' her, even when she asked for it. of course she'd initiate less and less the more she finds how much it's centered on you. bet after you came that was the end of it!

 

I'm assuming you only recently realized that sex is not just about you... with the labia and stuff.

I have confessed this to her and to others on this board and other places online.

 

It wasn't a mean-spirited selfishness, or me trying to be a jerk or hurt her.

It was a thoughtless selfishness.

It never really occurred to me to put her needs first.

 

Sex was short and fast, and I often didn't last. I would have to like work an hour to get her aroused, so I often gave up in frustration. Was shocked I didn't know what a labia was or anything really about her garden area.

 

Why couldn't she have told me what she needed? I'd have been willing to listen and help.

I'm changing that now and am focusing much more on her needs.

it's good that you're trying to change things, but know it will take time. after all, how much of that bad sex history do you have ingrained on her mind?

 

yes, she could've done her own research and sought out ways to teach you herself, so she's very well half to blame here. but again, you're the one looking for change, so.

I am her second after a former fiance who cheated on her and married the OW.

She only ML with him after they got engaged during the early 20s. And sex was plain vanilla, no oral, according to her.

 

As I thought my posts show, I awoke and realized sexual satisfaction isn't only about me. The woman, I read, needs longer foreplay and may not even need PIV.

I'm fine with that. I can certainly try to make her happy in other ways.

 

BTW, I know some other posters don't believe me and thrash me claiming I'm only interested in one thing, but I did mean it when I told her I can live without her ML with me.... the cuddling and long kissing is very good. It's her happiness I'm ultimately interested in. It's her I want - her emotions. The great sex, I think, should come later.

 

velvette, your posting is a big help to me and I really appreciate it.

[OptomisticGirl]

For a lot women they don't KNOW what gives them satisfaction, especially if they never masturbated or were very sexual. And it could be (if you a Christian marriage) she didn't feel comfortable telling you what pleasured her due to the religion OR as you said, you didn't realize it yourself so you were only concerned with your satisfaction.

 

I don't think your a bad guy FM and you want something that is very basic to a relationship/marriage. I just think you are looking at it from a different perspective. My question is, the things you post about the spouse shouldn't withhold sex during marriage... is this YOUR view or something you have read in a book you are quoting?

 

As well, the bolded part of your post that I bolded, the 'the great sex, I think, should come later'. What if it doesn't come? Would you still be content with the marriage then?

[ClarenceRutherford]

We are only giving you our opinion. If you don't agree with it ignore it. You can't have everyone always agree with your line of thinking.

Point taken.

One reason I started this thread was to get people to sympathize with me and give me some validation. I expected this and that and....

 

Just expected a little diff. outcome. Or some support.

 

"Fla. Man, you're doing a good job. She'll eventually come around. Wish I had a husband like you..." or something.

 

"Try to neck with her more.... That drives women crazy..."

 

Like I said, I want to return our emotional and sexual intimacy back a few years, like to 1992-96, the happiest years in my life when I met, dated and became engaged to her.

If someone has a time machine, I'd love to borrow it...

 

Am not happy now and full of regrets, evidenced by my many postings on longing for a former NEAR-fiance who broke my heart and some other things...

[OptomisticGirl]

Point taken.

One reason I started this thread was to get people to sympathize with me and give me some validation. I expected this and that and....

 

Just expected a little diff. outcome. Or some support.

 

"Fla. Man, you're doing a good job. She'll eventually come around. Wish I had a husband like you..." or something.

 

"Try to neck with her more.... That drives women crazy..."

 

Like I said, I want to return our emotional and sexual intimacy back a few years, like to 1992-96, the happiest years in my life when I met, dated and became engaged to her.

If someone has a time machine, I'd love to borrow it...

 

Am not happy now and full of regrets, evidenced by my many postings on longing for a former NEAR-fiance who broke my heart and some other things...

 

It's hard to support someone or give them validation when it comes accross the way you are posting, saying things like 'a spouse has no right to deny maritial relations'. That is going to strike a nerve with A LOT of people, especially women because it's the view point of a wife's body is a man's property (and vice versa) when it's not. There is nothing wrong with wanting to try to get the intimacy back BUT there is the fact it may not come back because it does decline with age with a lot of people. I'm a super sexual person but I very well could have no drive at the age of 50. Would it suck if my husband still wants it? Yes. Would I work toward trying to still give him that release? Sure, but that's a VERY fine line to walk of 'giving someone pleasure when that person knows the person giving it isn't enjoying it'.

[Janeiac]

Floridaman, I'm afraid I cannot agree with your assertion that "noone has the right to unilaterally stop making love." I believe everyone has that right, as a sovereign individual. Would things maybe sometimes go smoother if someone gave a spouse what the spouse wanted, just because? Sure. But it's not a requirement, and sadly the choices are only to accept it, or leave.

It sounds to me that you have in fact taken the situation in hand with your self-education and improved communication, and the proof is that you and your wife have restored relations. What you are doing is working, so keep doing it, don't pressure her, and enjoy your restored bliss. It doesn't have to happen on a schedule.

Over time, she may feel empowered enough to give you sexual attention to please you. In the meantime, it's her turn. You've acknowleddged your past selfishness-- that's more than half the battle of solving any problem.

Keep going, enjoy it!