It can happen if you really get your act together

[jasper01]

Ms Darcy- I hear ya, and you make sense. Thanks for sharing.

 

I didn't really explain my sense about it so I'll try real fast..The words 'it doesn't change the facts. She's gone' seem to me to be an expression from one person to another that they alone have direct access to the ultimate truth. I believe this is a natural posture for lots of us to have given what we've been through and I'm not putting anyone down. I've just seen that way of thinking has to be unlearned to begin the process of growing up.

[gromalamaz]

Thank you, Jasper, for posting this!

 

The first thing my ex said to me, a week after contacting me and asking to reconcile, was "you're at a good place" and I responded, "I know I am". He freaked himself out and distanced again, but I was patient and left him with love. The greatest 'validation' I got from him contacting me after 8 months (to reconcile, I found out), was finding out that he never stopped loving me, he just couldn't, and can't do ALL of it right now. Long story, check out my ADHD post and you will understand, but I now understand patience, after going through therapy, working on myself, and yes, getting on meds that I've needed for YEARS. I'm in a great place and I know that he will be back when HE is ready. When I had met up with him 5 months after breaking up, we went for a hike and talked about a lot of things, life, etc. He told me then that he hoped that he could get to where I was. I told him that he could. I approached the topic of reconciling. He contacted me 3 months later saying that he wanted to contact me when he could back his words with actions, and that that was the time. After a great week, he realized he wasn't at the point that he could, and I respect that. The greatest thing you can do for yourself is to create a new you, a new life. All things seem brighter, and you never know what will happen the next day -- make sure that you realize that you can not change anything outside yourself...

[Girl wants EX]

I am glad to read your story.

[John Bendix]

Jaspar,

 

 

I have read through your post many times. I find it interesting to say the least. The main ideas have been proposed before (as mentioned).

 

 

 

"It's now my belief that if your partner leaves it means you are missing something important AND they are missing the ability to deal with it. Only one of you has to change to fix that.

 

That my partner left, I came to understand, meant I didn't have it together yet. Didn't matter that she didn't either. For a good long time, I believed that she had control over the situation because she was the one willing to walk away. But now I've seen different. She wanted that great relationship just as much as I did. Walking away was simply her best solution at the time for getting it. When I was finally able to validate her reality, that was what turned it around. And it didn't happen all at once. But I do see looking back that there was no other way for either of us once I changed."

 

I do have a couple of questions here.

 

Missing something important, in what way? In completing them? The other's ability to deal with this and when you change, their ability to deal does not matter? Why? They do not have to change for the relationship to go better?

 

Walking away was her best solution in obtaining a great relationship. I believe I understand the WAS's reasons for leaving as well as anyone, to say they leave to get that great relationship, with whom? An unknown someone? So, her envisioned and desired great relationship was outside of the one you shared?

 

I do believe that most WAS do what they feel compelled to do, leave. They see no alternative. I fully understand and have compassion for it. That does not make it rational. Because one person's perspective is totally different from another's, does not make both of their ways of thinking equally functional. Basing your view of reality (interpretation by the mind of the stimulis created by the senses) on images of what you need the truth to be, is dysfunctional and usually leads to great emotional suffering.

 

Can you complete someone else's dysfunctional and irrational ways in a intimate relationship? Yes, it can happen. I lived it for 20+ years and had little problem with it. But it took very little to have her go over the edge that she was close to.

 

Without a change on the part of both parties, the connection between the two is still masked and may lead to more wounding.

[gromalamaz]

Thanks, GWE! It's been a long road to get to this 'calm', but I wouldn't change it for anything!

[jasper01]

hey John- thanks for your input.

 

Missing something important, in what way?

 

I'll speak for myself. I see it as my missing the ability to be genuinely empathic with another person. As my parents did not have that skill to pass down to me. The word empathy encompasses quite a bit to me, and here's the best description I know of:

 

link removed

 

their ability to deal does not matter? Why? They do not have to change for the relationship to go better?

 

I now believe that if one partner changes, it changes the other partner. Watch this brief blurb from Hendrix, 'What if my partner won't do the work?'

 

link removed

 

her envisioned and desired great relationship was outside of the one you shared?

 

It was not the one we had and she felt overwhelmed, distressed, and alone with both of us missing the skills to change it. From her point of view, leaving, better option. At the time, I could not understand this because I was clinging to my point of view and what I believed she should be doing. I now see this 'being stuck in ones point of view' as the core problem between couples. Hendrix calls this condition 'emotional symbiosis', and says it is the result of parents repeatedly frustrating aspects of their child's developmental stages. And that most of us end up this way. These ideas now seem to me to be some pretty wise ways of looking at these problems.

[Tired Tiger]

To expand on several of the thoughts expressed in this thread...

 

The process of reconciliation is arduous and complex. Far more so than the mantras presented by self-published e-books and YouTube videos. And while everyone may desire a quick, magic answer... there isn't one. Let's be realistic here - successful reconciliation stories aren't based on games, tricks, or manipulation, and don't span just a couple of weeks. That in mind, I'll offer some opinions based on past experience, real-world anecdotes from family and friends, and various research.

 

First, there's arriving at a realistic decision to travel this reunion path. By realistic, I mean logical and not emotional. Most everyone wants a way to "get their ex back" in the short term after getting dumped. That's the normal emotional reaction, but only serves to perpetuate cognitive dissonance. This early stage is not the time to formulate any sort of absolute decision or strategy for reconciliation. It's the time to feel. Feel the hurt, confusion, betrayal, anger, depression, etc., and work through it. The time line (and specific emotions) will be different depending on the individual, but this is absolutely necessary in order to arrive at a point of focusing on the logical.

 

What about 'contact' with your ex at this time? Personally, I don't agree with the generic, "Go NC!!!" battle cry, at least not as it's suggested should apply no matter what... and especially not as a function of reconciliation. The amount and type of contact should be dictated by the individual circumstances (and personalities/dynamics). As a side rant (that I've made before), 90% of the "NC" posts in the "Getting Back Together" forum actually belong in "Healing". Anyway...

 

When getting to the point of being able to focus rationally, there's four entities to consider here (my apologies to jasper for going against the single entity theory ). The relationship, yourself, your ex, and chatter. The most important initial step is to be honest about the actual viability of the relationship, facilitated by non-romanticized reflection of what went wrong and why. This is a time for understanding and acceptance, not blame and excuses. Viability is another one of those things that depends on each individuals perceptions and circumstances... no generic answers here.

 

Yourself and your ex - along with the references already mentioned (Hendrix and Turtle), I'll add John Gray (Venus/Mars), and a book called, "He's Scared, She's Scared". It's not enough to just understand what happened to the relationship, but why. Understand your role in all of this. Nothing is one-sided. Let me repeat that... nothing is one-sided. It never ceases to amaze me how many ENA members - who are (according to themselves) such wonderful, loving, well-adjusted people - somehow are all recovering from relationships with evil, mentally ill flakes. Really? If that's really true, why did they choose those partners in the first place? If not true, then it seems to me just a devaluation of someone as part of a subconscious effort to avoid responsibility for half the relationship.

 

Chatter - by this I mean anything that serves to fuel cognitive distortions. Your most accurate source of information is what you know yourself, followed by what your ex has to say (assuming the dynamic includes a respectable level of honesty). Third party rumors, social networking sites, and hacking an ex's e-mail only serve to cloud the truly important issues and take their toll on respect and trust issues. Stop looking for symptoms and stay focused on the core diagnosis. What your ex is doing at this very moment is largely irrelevant in regards to your role in the past.

 

As all this applies to myself, personally, I can relate to what jasper said here:

 

That my partner left, I came to understand, meant I didn't have it together yet. Didn't matter that she didn't either. For a good long time, I believed that she had control over the situation because she was the one willing to walk away. But now I've seen different. She wanted that great relationship just as much as I did. Walking away was simply her best solution at the time for getting it.

Yep. And as painful as it has been, I realize that this whole perceived nightmare of separating is probably the only way of correcting the things that were sabotaging that wonderful relationship we had (and wanted to continue). Of course, much of this may be easy for me to say, as my situation involved no infidelity or abuse - and the door for a second chance was never closed, but I also know there's no guarantees. I *do* know what I need to work on, and I also know that she's been working on the very things she needs to. Even so, there's nothing easy about any of this...

[Crazyaboutdogs]

My comments are in red above.

[John Bendix]

First, let me say that this is the most interesting thread on the subject of LTR fallout that I have seen in a long time. It has an objective approach in that it takes in perspective from both sides.

 

Jaspar,

 

To be truthful, some of your earlier posts were not really understand by me. With this thread, I can fully see where you are coming from and it makes a lot of sense to me. I like the premise.

 

The place that I tend to disagree is twofold. First in its absoluteness, which I must say, seems to be inadvertent. The second may be a bit touchy to your proposal. We all suffer from some form of emotional/cognitive dysfunction. It only varies in degree. When that dysfunctional reaches a certain level, the medical community labels (rightly or wrongly) it a disorder. Even these labeled disorders have levels. Irrational actions and reactions are abundant. They can be very emotionally unstable by this point. My X was characterized by, therapist, counselor, doctors and specialists, as being too unstable to deal with by either myself and our children.

 

When people reach the point when they erected an impenetrable wall, it is tough to do anything but withdraw (which has probably already happened to some degree by both parties) and "give space". Letting them know that you have seen the light, are trying to change, know how they feel, understand their plight, still care about them, etc., is potentially too dangerous for them to accept and they refuse to even see it.

 

As for this, "Stop looking for symptoms and stay focused on the core diagnosis. What your ex is doing at this very moment is largely irrelevant in regards to your role in the past."

 

In keeping with the perception that the past is just an image of what happened and used in this way without judging it or inducing emotional reaction to it, it can be an effective learning tool. To use it, in order not to repeat the same egoic decisions, does not seem to be irrelevant. To use it to try and change the present situation, is delusional and irrational, I agree.

[John Bendix]

Tired Tiger,

 

I have also enjoyed your take on this.

 

The first part in bold I agree with wholeheartedly. To go even futher on emotional interference, I would use the term egoic. The ego tends to go in self protective mode sensing (erroneously) that its own self worth is being threatened. The ego will do whatever, rational or not, it can to protect what it sees as our true identity, itself.

 

I agree that acceptance of what is, is the key to every aspect of dealing with the world and not just intimate relationships. The ego refuses to accept what it finds contrary to how it wants things to be. Blame and complain are two of the most useless and dysfunctional egoic defense mechanism that I can imagine. To me, being logical in this instance, means "leaving the ego at the door".

 

The second part in bold, to me, is a generalization that does not account for some of the individual cases. Some of those here on ENA, are willing to take responsibility for their part in the breakdown of the relationship. In these cases, the other partner denies any culpability, History is re-written in self-serving ways, the truth becomes what they need to be, faults of the other are magnified, selfishness becomes almost clinical, hostility and anger become defense mechanisms, fear to the point of paranoia, etc. I understand that this is doen in mental/emotional survival but that does not make it any less real and dysfuntional. Why they chose their partner x many years ago has nothing to do with the present emotional state of their partner.

[Tired Tiger]

I agree that NC is not something that should be used for reconciliation..and also may not be appropriate in all circumstances. However, it is most certainly appropriate when someone dumps you and finds another partner, or tells you they don't want to hear from you anymore...or tells you they want to be friends and you are having a hard time switching from being romantically involved to being just friends because you still have feelings for that person. NC is for healing and not being fooled into false hope.

No disagreement here. I will admit, however, that my current situation is likely an exception rather than the rule in this respect (none of the criteria you mentioned apply). I had posted this in a different thread:

To answer the question, I don't actually define the communication between my ex and I with any specific label. We talk when we talk. *shrug* Sometimes it's a few days in a row, and sometimes we go a week or two of quiet. What do I get out of it? Well, I look at it this way - if I had "gone NC" immediately following the break up, assumptions and cognitive distortions would have led me to a completely incorrect perception of the situation. Instead, continued contact has given both of us a much greater understanding of each others thought processes and realities - necessary for the work we both need to do if and when we get to a point of trying again (which is something that's never been eliminated from the realm of possibility).

Even so, it's also true that periods of 'quiet' do take place as deemed necessary (I'm at 2 weeks right now myself). The reason I had brought up the 'NC' aspect was because...

 

People post in Getting Back Together because that is what they generally want. Until they are ready to accept the relationship is over, if it makes them feel better to post in "Getting Back Together" then who cares, as long as they are getting good feedback and food for thought.

My opinion on this isn't based on criticism of those who post about their relationship and wanting to feel better about it, it's more about the almost automated generic response that's inevitably given. Not that NC isn't appropriate in many cases, but in and of itself isn't doing justice to the topic of the forum.

 

Unless you know every single circumstance of what happened in every case you can't make a blanket statement. Yes, there are indeed some very well put together people who fall in love with a jerk and only really find out the person is a jerk after they have fallen for the person. Makes it harder to get out of the relationship. So don't assume you know every single relationship simply based on your own experience. Sure, there are some relationships where both sides are at fault..but there are also some relationships where one person is the one behaving badly and the other person is trying to figure it all out before finally throwing in the towel and leaving.

To clarify my point, it's not always obvious what a person needs to 'work on' or be introspective about. I'm not presuming to know anything about anyone elses relationship - quite the contrary, actually. What we may often read here is just one selective and emotionally biased side of any given story. Even so, I'll reiterate that it's not about "fault" or blame - it's about recognizing one's dysfunctional role in the relationship. Let's put it this way - that 'well put together' person who's involved with a jerk may be better served in their own personal growth by understanding Imago and why they ended up with a jerk than to simply "Go NC" and hope the jerk comes back (or moves on to the next jerk).

 

Sometimes what the ex is doing at this very moment is indeed very relevant to the past and future. It is not a good idea to stick one's head in the sand and ignore the present. Symptoms are also very important to look it..they help you arrive at a diagnosis as MDs would tell you.

I probably could have worded that portion you're referring to a bit better. I'll have to give that some further thought.

[Tired Tiger]

Hey John,

 

The second part in bold, to me, is a generalization that does not account for some of the individual cases. Some of those here on ENA, are willing to take responsibility for their part in the breakdown of the relationship.

I certainly didn't mean to infer that every poster at ENA is in this form of denial. However, I do believe it's counter productive for those who have devalued their exes as a means to move on to offer this as a viable element in regards to reconciliation. Perhaps this plays it's role for a period during the anger phase of the emotional letting go, but I believe the extended reconciliation process requires more compassion and understanding than is possible with that sort of negativity. If that makes sense.

[John Bendix]

Hey John,

 

 

I certainly didn't mean to infer that every poster at ENA is in this form of denial. However, I do believe it's counter productive for those who have devalued their exes as a means to move on to offer this as a viable element in regards to reconciliation. Perhaps this plays it's role for a period during the anger phase of the emotional letting go, but I believe the extended reconciliation process requires more compassion and understanding than is possible with that sort of negativity. If that makes sense.

 

That makes perfect sense. What purpose does it serve to devalue someone? But when that person has gone beyond reason, into a emotional/mental survival mode with all of the maladaptive egoic defense postures, it is best to accept that and then deal with it as it is.

 

 

In a lot of the WAS cases that I have seen, the one left behind is the one devalued by the walkaway and they can actually start to believe that it was all their fault. I see that the most functional way to deal with the erratic and irrational actions, thoughts, and reactions of the true WAS is understanding and compassion, no matter how the relationship turns out.

[jasper01]

Thanks for your support John - love hearing your ideas, even if I disagree.

 

I believe we all pair up with someone roughly equally nuts to ourselves.

 

Trying where I can to label my beliefs as mine and not statements of fact, but in case it isn't clear - these are my best beliefs at this time.

[atelis]

I believe we all pair up with someone roughly equally nuts to ourselves.

 

.

 

I agree with this. We`attract and are attracted to people who mirror us. Healthy people meet healthy people and unhealthy people meet unhealthy people. The are varying degrees of that in between.

 

There are cases where a healthy person will meet an unhealthy person, but a healthy person will soon catch on and leave once their healthy needs/wants are not met.

 

We choose who we let into our lives. If we continue to choose to let in unhealthy people, it means we are unhealthy ourselves on some level. To then say, 'but i keep meeting guys/women who treat me badly and im such a good, caring person' is missing the point. Its time to work on those issues that lead one to seek other unhealthy people

[BRV]

Hi all,

 

Let me start by saying that this is by far the most useful thread i have read so far (i have been lurking on these boards a month or so). So thank you all for your insights.

 

I believe that learning empathy and communication (two things that i lacked for the most part in my 1.5 year relationship) are the only way i can grow as an individual and prevent the mistakes from the past happening again. Only with these things can we truly become 'connected' with our SO and they in turn become connected to us.

 

Without these things (on both sides of my relationship i must add) emotional walls began to build between us and it was a deteriorating cycle that fed and perpetuated itself. Sadly we were never able to break the cycle and drifted further and further apart even though there was a great deal of love there at some point.

 

I feel it is my job now to work out these issues with myself (break the cycle) and come to understand my ex-girlfriend and her 'reality' whether we have a chance of reconciliation or not (i am very realistic about the chances of us getting back together and how unlikely it is in my circumstance). I feel it is the least i can do for her (and myself) now that it is over and hopefully it will help us both in our future relationships.

 

Can someone please elaborate as to what 'mirroring' and 'validation' are and how these are practically realized?

[Aldonza]

I agree with this. We`attract and are attracted to people who mirror us. Healthy people meet healthy people and unhealthy people meet unhealthy people. The are varying degrees of that in between.

 

I don't like to think of it in degrees of "healthy" vs. "unhealthy". I think that we definitely are attracted to people with complimentary personality traits to our own traits. Some of these traits are negative. We *all* have them. Even "healthy" people.

 

For me, the trick is self-awareness of my negative traits and how they can trigger the negative traits in my partner. I can't control the trigger, but I can become aware of it being a trigger and *choose* how to respond to that trigger. To me, that is the definition of emotional health. Playing the psychological cards you've been dealt responsibly.

[jasper01]

BRV- The way I am using these words is..

Mirroring is something you do that makes your partner feel heard.

Validation is something that makes them feel understood.

link removed

[Tired Tiger]

"Mirroring" and "Validation" are terms also used by Harville Hendrix and the 'Imago' therapy. In some respects, the Venus/Mars stuff by John Gray is also similar. It all has to do with the way we communicate in a relationship, or specifically - how we listen and respond in a way that avoids conflict and promotes understanding. Mirroring is a way of paraphrasing what your partner has just expressed, or 'reflecting' what they're saying. It's not about agreeing, but in giving understanding and validity to their message. Validation flows with this and shows you understand the message without having to either agree or be defensive.

[atelis]

I don't like to think of it in degrees of "healthy" vs. "unhealthy". I think that we definitely are attracted to people with complimentary personality traits to our own traits. Some of these traits are negative. We *all* have them. Even "healthy" people.

 

.

 

What i meant was, if we are emotionally unavailable on some level, we will seek partners who are also emotionally unavailable.

 

If one of us suffers from abandonment fear, we will partner with those people who trigger our abandonment fears and those partners will most likely have their own abandonment fear.

 

we build walls because of fear. It is that fear that makes us psycholigically unhealthy on some level. A more balanced 'healthier' individual will not be controlled by fear as much as someone who is unhealthy and therefore, be able to make conscious decisions as opposed to unconscious decisions in relationships.

[90_hour_sleep]

jasper01, thanks for this thread. This forum is often woefully lacking in legitimate discussion on the complexities of reconciliation. In fact, I wonder why so many who choose to post in this particular forum even bother - other than to project their own negativity on others. But, I digress... I'm assuming you've been reading Harville Hendrix? I believe he's the one who coined the 'Imago' term. Good stuff for those willing to be introspective.

 

hey tiger...

 

i think you're right. it seems to be a bit of a rollercoaster of negativity sometimes. at times i get a really strong sense of a person's bitterness permeating everything he/she says. it's unfortunate...because for most of us...we stumble accross this place in a state of disarray...and are easily convinced (i suspect because we are looking to have some answers given to us in the initial stages). i know it becomes much easier to spot the resentment theme once you've healed to a degree.

 

how's your situation going, by the way?

 

 

ps...thank you for the thread jasper.

[Tired Tiger]

Hi 90...

 

hey tiger...

 

i think you're right. it seems to be a bit of a rollercoaster of negativity sometimes. at times i get a really strong sense of a person's bitterness permeating everything he/she says. it's unfortunate...because for most of us...we stumble accross this place in a state of disarray...and are easily convinced (i suspect because we are looking to have some answers given to us in the initial stages). i know it becomes much easier to spot the resentment theme once you've healed to a degree.

True. The reason I brought this up in the first place is for those who may be in a viable position to reunite to understand that there's more to reconciliation than can be learned from any message board. Realistically, there's a lop-sided balance of negative to positive, as those who've actually gotten back together aren't posting (much) in a forum like this, combined with the fact that so much of the 'advice' handed out are from those who chose to devalue their ex and move on. Though this may actually be appropriate in several situations, it doesn't address the topic of the forum.

 

how's your situation going, by the way?

 

Well, 13 weeks since D-Day, and 3 weeks today of unannounced/un-discussed silence. I'm simply detaching to the best of my ability, since letting her go and healing myself is critical to the process. It's still tough, though...

[AmandaB]

Just wanted to bump this one. Want to read it but dont have the time, have to move tomorrow.

[90_hour_sleep]

i'll second that...this thread deserves a bump.

[90_hour_sleep]

thanks for this post, saffron. i find you've mirrored my own thoughts to some degree.

 

the one point of disagreement might be in the 'blame' category. while you blamed him, i blamed myself. although, fundamentally there is no real difference between those two perspectives. they're both dysfunctional.

 

you know, it's inspiring to know that there are others that have come to realizations about their true natures. i sometimes find myself wondering if there is some credibility to the whole idea that negativity towards a breakup and a former partner is really a way to heal (because there are some who preach to this idea). i know that this is not true, though (i know it within myself); but, i can relate to your struggle. there are times when i'm quite overwhelmed, and the only way i get through is to surrender. this is still the one true battle that continues for me. surrender and accept...hold on and deny. i know the time is near when i will finally be fed up with the suffering...and i will truly surrender myself to what is. i will realize my own true nature.

 

i also relate to having no desire for a quick fix. of course, there are moments when i deny this...but they pass quickly as i become conscious of that denial.

really, there is only one 'fix' as i see it: a sustained sense of peace...which entails the capacity to be present in a state of love (not simply to feel love...but to be love). i know that might sound cryptic in it's simplicity.

 

thanks for your post.