Escorts and other forms of "prostitution"

[pianoguy]

It's completely different. That is intruding grossly on the rights of another person which in my post I pointed out was an exception.

 

Yes, yes, I know. That's why I said that I think your viewpoint is completely valid. What I was saying is that simply because your culture has reached a verdict on this issue does not mean that I have to accept your view uncritically. The Germans believed that it was okay to murder people as long as they were Jewish. There was widespread consensus about this.

 

I MUST stress that I think the position your government has taken is eminently reasonable and in no way is similar to the Holocaust. My point is just that because a culture agrees on something does not mean that you have to accept it uncritically.

 

Anways, I'm done discussing this. For more info type in "cultural relativism" into google and other people can explain it more eloquently that I can.

 

I don't mean to offend you by my remarks. I hope that my point is coming through.

[melrich]

on this issue does not mean that I have to accept your view uncritically.

 

Absolutely not. As I said in my first post on the matter I am always hesitant to talk about these issues on this forum because culturally I come from a very different perspective than most people here.

 

And I also stressed that I was describing our approach without addressing the moral issue because on this particular issue that is quite personal. Unlike say murder which is pretty well universally accepted as wrong.

 

I don't mean to offend you by my remarks.

 

Not at all, I enjoyed the discussion and it is graet to see we can actually have rigorous debate on here without everyone going OT and getting personal.

[Shiranai]

1. Allowing prostitution does not "glorify" it.

We allow garbage men, is that a glorified job? Some jobs are hard to "glorify," many countries have legal prostitutes, and still people do not dream to become one. Gee, I wonder why.

 

2. 90% of the issues revolving prostitution, be it drugs, pimps, violence, rape, theft... wow! Amazing! Can be RESOLVED or DIMINISHED by legalizing it! Isn't that just amazing? Who would've thought.

 

3. By having prostitutes or by using prostitutes, one is not "degrading" anyone. Only the ones who think prostitution is a degrading job are the people who are degrading anyone here. You obviously degrade prostitutes, when they just want to earn some honest money.

 

Some women and men get so offended or defensive when people mention legalizing prostitution. No, it's okay! We're not forcing you, or your kids into prostitution! We're merely saying if people WANT to be a prostitute, male OR female, let them! It's good for society as a whole.

 

It's so irritating when people refuse the anti-prostitution claims with good arguments, and the other party just continue rambling the SAME claims, without BACKING or LOGIC or REASON.

 

I can argue both for and against prostitution, drugs, alcohol... but you know what, I back my arguments with logic and reasoning. Maybe not evidence (as this is not a research paper), but... at least I put some thought into my answers instead of repeat the propagandas fed into me via the media or the school system.

 

^ Above rant does not apply to pianoguy. He makes sense, although I disagree. It DOES apply the person saying slavery is prostitution. Since when is Japanese forcing women to become sex slaves the equivalent of prostitution by free will? They can't even be compared. That should be compared to slavery, not prostitution.

[CynicalGuitarist]

I'd say we're on the same page here... I mean, I use alcohol as a frequent example because it's the quintissential allusion to prostitution. Anyone remember when THAT was illegal!?

 

I've got a challenge to anyone who thinks that the "collar jobs" (white, blue, polo... don't matter) that are bottom-of-the-barrel have a lot more freedom... Ask the convenience store clerk, janitor, fast food jockey, office drone, or the like 2 questions...

 

1. Do you like your job? Is it fulfilling enough to ward off existential crisis?

 

2. If money didn't exist and everyone in the world was well fed, bathed, and housed, what would YOU do with your time?

 

I know "what does this has to do with prostitution, moron?", but I would be interested in the responses you might garner...

[Shiranai]

A lot of people cheat on their SOs, 2/3 of both men and women cheat.

 

I know, given a choice between my boyfriend dating another girlfriend, or him visiting LEGAL prostitutes, I'd choose the lesser of two evils: prostitutes.

 

He feels the same.

 

My father's mistress is only 2 years older than me. Given a choice, I am sure my mother would wish the s--- is a prostitute as well. At least she wouldn't have dug so much money out of my father while pretending to love him.

[Luke Skywalker]

Guaging by this thread from an escort board:

 

link removed

 

It appears that escorts enjoy having yonge studly clients that are paying for their services, so they appear to like what they are doing and even brag about what type of clients they like to do on here. Hardly sounds coersed.

 

Selina there is an escort herself. Live evidence.

[Taomagicdragon]

A lot of people cheat on their SOs, 2/3 of both men and women cheat.

 

I know, given a choice between my boyfriend dating another girlfriend, or him visiting LEGAL prostitutes, I'd choose the lesser of two evils: prostitutes.

 

He feels the same.

 

My father's mistress is only 2 years older than me. Given a choice, I am sure my mother would wish the s--- is a prostitute as well. At least she wouldn't have dug so much money out of my father while pretending to love him.

 

I'd dump them, personally, instead of living in a shambled husk of the relationship.

[pianoguy]

As the discussion winds down, I thought it might be interesting to look for some solid data on countries that have legalized prostitution, to see if it really accomplishes the goal of protecting women.

 

It is still too early to tell for sure, but the preliminary results are not encouraging, as I suspected. These stats are taken from the Prostitution research and education center website. This study was written in 2003.

 

This part addresses those who believe that legalization helps fight corruption:

 

In addition, the study indicates that the supposed safer conditions do not appear to be happening:

This is for the people who believe that prostitutes have a choice to become a prostitute:

The bottom line

[Taomagicdragon]

Guaging by this thread from an escort board:

 

link removed

 

It appears that escorts enjoy having yonge studly clients that are paying for their services, so they appear to like what they are doing and even brag about what type of clients they like to do on here. Hardly sounds coersed.

 

Selina there is an escort herself. Live evidence.

 

Just as I wouldn't implicitly believe a tobacco company lauding cigarettes I'd take all this with a grain salt.

[pianoguy]

Remarks from prostitutes interviewed for the survey:

 

"No way. It's not a profession. It is humiliating

and violence from the male side." Not one woman interviewed wanted her

children, family or friends to have to earn money by entering the sex

industry. One stated: Prostitution stripped me of my life, my health,

everything.

The suggestions of the study to governments considering legalizing prostitution:

Rather than the State sanctioning prostitution, the State could address

the demand by penalizing the men who buy women for the sex of prostitution, and support the development of alternatives for women in prostitution industries. Instead of governments cashing in on the economic benefits of the sex industry by taxing it, governments could invest in the futures of prostituted women by providing economic resources, from the seizure of sex industry assets, to provide real alternatives for women in prostitution.

[Superfreak]

"No way. It's not a profession. It is humiliating

and violence from the male side." Not one woman interviewed wanted her

children, family or friends to have to earn money by entering the sex

industry. One stated: Prostitution stripped me of my life, my health,

everything.

 

What are you trying to prove exactly? Of course Prostitution isn't a glamorous industry. What all of us have been trying to do is patiently explain to you that prostitution is an industry that will always be around and legalization of prostitution will make it safer and improve conditions all around. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this point instead choosing asinine pie in the sky idealism.

 

Rather than the State sanctioning prostitution, the State could address

the demand by penalizing the men who buy women for the sex of prostitution, and support the development of alternatives for women in prostitution industries. Instead of governments cashing in on the economic benefits of the sex industry by taxing it, governments could invest in the futures of prostituted women by providing economic resources, from the seizure of sex industry assets, to provide real alternatives for women in prostitution

 

Great, yet more pie in the sky idealism. Men are already penalized for visiting prostitutes, it hasn't done anything to discourage it. Likewise you can get life in prison or execution for murdering others, yet there's still murderers. Humans have base instincts and the desire for sex is one of them. As soon as someone with limited options realises that there vagina can command alot of resources prostitution will happen. Supply always rises to meet demand and the sex work industry is no different. We already have programs to improve conditions for low income women, it's called welfare. And none too shockingly it's the people that are against legalizing prostitution that are ALSO against raising welfare rates and a better welfare state. Why is that? It's because these people are align themselves with a moronic moral agenda of sexual puritanism as opposed to an open mind. I'm all for increasing welfare and assistance for finding jobs for low income people but I'm also aware that in even a generous welfare state prostitution will continue to occur. It's a service that's been demanded throughout history, one which is very lucrative as it caters to our base instincts, there's nothing that can be done to end it. All we can do is improve conditions for these women and give those that would rather do anything else other options.

 

I've been rather busy the past few days and havn't been able to look through the rest of the thread so I will post more later if I missed anything you've said.

[melrich]

The real growth in prostitution in Australia since legalization took

effect has been in the illegal sector. Since the onset of legalization

in Victoria, brothels have tripled in number and expanded in size; the

vast majority having no licenses but advertising and operating with impunity

 

Yes I know of these two authors (well one of them quite well, the other I have jsut read some of her stuff on the net). The first is usually described here as a radical feminist and was very active in lobbying against original legalisation (it should be stated that generally feminists supported legalisation here and of the entire population 72% supported legalisation). She favors a different model (which may be better but I do not know if it is in practice anywhere). Her model revolves around decriminalising the activity of being a prostitute but making it a criminal offense for people to use their services or other people to profit from them. Her view is that prostitution degrades women.

 

The other regularly gives seminars on the evils of prostitution. I don't know her other than what I have read on the net and the fact that she occasionally co-bills with the author I mentioned above.

 

I quoted above just to give an example of how disingenuous some of this information can be (and it occurs on both sides of the argument).

 

I referred briefly to this in my first post.

 

When prostitution was first legalised here, it was estimated that were some 2000 prostitutes working illegally in one form or the other. The government initially issued only 32 licenses. 2000 just doesn't go into 32. Those that could not get jobs in licensed premises, the vast majority, continued to ply their trade illegally. Initially, illegal operations far outstripped legal operations. And yes, the number of brothels tripled because what previously had been predominantly a service that was street trade became premise trade.

 

Many adjustments have occurred since then, including many more licenses being granted and natural attrition of those who were working illegally.

 

I've never claimed that there is no illegal activity here, there still is. I've also never claimed it is the perfect model, there may well be better. I use it only as an example of what happened here when the industry was legalised. And my main point there has always been not that it changed any moral viewpoint or somehow changed the nature of prostitution itself, just that it made the job safer, cleaner and healthier.

[Taomagicdragon]

Just like with my innate disbelief that an escort site's praise of prostitution should be taken as truth I also take with grains of salt anything those two writer say that;s against it. Both groups are pulling for their ideals and would be better suited by third party groups to gather statistics. Even a bureaucracy would be better as they would have some measure of neutrality, even if it's due to being generally removed from the public altogether.

[Keyser_Soze]

Wow...it's been a while since I visited this neck of the woods.

 

Ladies it's simple, if the idea of prostitution repulses you, don't become one.

 

Guys if the idea of prostitution repulses you don't go to one.

 

Very Simple,

 

One reason I believe it should be legalized is because Frankly I don't care what others do with their money or their bodies, it's none of my bussiness.

 

Is sex with a hooker the same as having sex with someone you love or care about? No probably not, but for alot of guys it's still better then no sex at all. Too many people say "oh you just need to get out more" or "oh you need to find your soulmate" or my personal favourite "love will conquer all" I'm sorry but this is the real world not some hollywood romantic comedy. For some men the only way they can get any is by paying for it. They're plenty of people who have meaningless loveless sex, ie, friends with benefits, One night stands with strangers you met in bars, swingers clubs hedonism resorts, I could go on and on and on, so really morally speaking how does adding money to the mix make any difference? Yes I'm a john I have frequented escorts in the past. and YES I did enjoy my time with them, aren't I suppose to? Afterall, I'm paying them Why would I go to an escort if it was just going to make me miserable? Which is why I don't get it when some people are like" "yeah I had a friend who went to a prostitute he hated himself after" Superfreak I believe mentioned something about this in the older posts. Why didn't I just get a gf simple, I didnt want one. Dating can be alot of tedious bull * * * * , Drama, mindgames, I wasn't looking for a life partner. I just wanted to have a good time (as cliche as that sounds) and I didnt want to waste my time is some bar competing with a bunch of neantherthals for alpha male status to attract a woman. I have no patience for games. some men love the game the chase, the corny pick up lines. and then they're men like me who loathe it.

 

Problem is people take an extreme and turn it into a standard, not every prostitute is a crack * * * * * , not every prostitute is an STD carrier infact many mid range to high class escorts are very careful will their health will insist on using a condom and wouldnt even see a client who is a drug user let alone be a drug user themselves. Not every prostitute is a damaged soul looking to be saved. some live the stereotype others do not.

 

And if she doesn't enjoy her job so what? to me that irrelevant to the morality of the transaction. lots of people hate their jobs If I look at somebody who's working behind the counter at Burger King making minimum wage I don't think "oh gee what a sad soul I wonder what got him to this point of his life I'm really taking advantage of his sad situation"

 

Give me a break!

 

Legalize it already

[Keyser_Soze]

The few men I know who see prostitutes generally don't enjoy it... it's kind of a degrading experience for the man as well and you end up with kind of an empty, hopeless feeling afterwards. My suggestion to anyone who is thinking about seeing a prostitute is to watch some porn, masturbate, and as you're calming down afterwards, spend some time thinking about how to meet women and making plans to go out more.

 

I know of several guys who see nothing wrong with it Including myself Yeah I could go out more, but being an introvert I'd prefer not to.

 

I'll just make an apointment with my favourite escort thanks.

[CynicalGuitarist]

I didnt want to waste my time is some bar competing with a bunch of neantherthals for alpha male status to attract a woman. I have no patience for games.

 

Poetry. Pure poetry.

[Keyser_Soze]

"I've already addressed this at great length. It is not freedom to be forced to sell your body. Prostitutes do not sleep with whoever they want. They sleep in exchange for dollars. It is a form of sexual servitude. It is nearly the opposite of freedom."

 

Many escorts have more freedom then you think. Many can choose which clients they want to see Many escorts often discriminate and will only see clients that are a certain age or a certain race. and not every prostitute is forced to be a prostitute Again another example of taking an extreme and turning it into a standard. Typical tactic of a self rightious do-gooder.

[JadedStar]

"I've already addressed this at great length. It is not freedom to be forced to sell your body. Prostitutes do not sleep with whoever they want. They sleep in exchange for dollars. It is a form of sexual servitude. It is nearly the opposite of freedom."

 

Many escorts have more freedom then you think. Many can choose which clients they want to see Many escorts often discriminate and will only see clients that are a certain age or a certain race. and not every prostitute is forced to be a prostitute Again another example of taking an extreme and turning it into a standard. Typical tactic of a self rightious do-gooder.

 

Ah but your response is also a typical tactic of a solicitor.

[CaptainPlanet]

I've been thinking about this. Unless the economy is in some type of recession there is little to no excuse is my opinion for a young girl who cannot find a job to be a prostitute it must be personal choice.

 

Young girls, particularily attractive ones can basically walk in and out of jobs. They've got restaurants, bars, reception and ever counter job you can imagine under the sun where they have a definitive advantage in gaining employment. There is almost no excuse in the short term these jobs are cash with little or no skills.

 

For a man he can be paid more in certain industries that usually require some sort of training, truck license, red and forklift license for example. Sure the pay might not be great (for the woman) but it is a job and you chose to keep your dignity.

 

I think we're all a little bit short sighted in many ways as to what entails free choice. Women in third world countries often have no choice and upon doing a little research I have discovered from almost forced prostitution services they can be paid as little as $20 US per week. They have the option to earn $12 per week and their family starves or prostitute themselves for $20 a week, and the family lives. This is a stark contrasts to the western women who will prostitute herself often for more than $200 per hour.

 

Sometimes a person is unfortunate and will suffer for things outside of their control. This is why we have welfare and high minimum wages in my country.

[Keyser_Soze]

 

Ah but your response is also a typical tactic of a solicitor.

 

 

That's a sorry attempt to take a shot at me. you're going to have to do alot better then that. I already admitted I had gone to escorts in the past so your post is meaningless, and where I've done it it was legal. It's simple really you do it where the law allows it, you're not a criminal then are you?

 

I know of two women who worked as escorts. One used the money she earned as an escort to put herself through University, and now works as a interior designer. The other made a fortune owns 2 homes. and runs her own escort and modelling agency catering to upscale clientele (bussinessmen executives etc.) both of these women are intelligent, educated, and did it out of choice. and they despise drugs or anyone who uses drugs. So yes, they're women who have choices some women choose to sell their bodies for money. It's a concept many refuse to grasp. Some women would rather sell themselves for money making hundreds an hour instead of working at burger king or Wal Mart for minimum wage. it's their choice

[Keyser_Soze]

I didn't read this entire thread, so I'm not sure if someone mentioned the tax factor in all of this. I don't think governments care whether or not people are screwing around, they just don't want people working without paying taxes. Even in countries where prostitution is legal, it is still illegal if you don't have a legitimate business.

 

 

Governments DO CARE otherwise they would have made it legal and started taxing it a long time ago. people still use morality and their emotions to keep something illegal instead of looking at the big picture. in the early 1900s Alcohol became illegal look at how much crime and courruption that one law caused Same thing applies to alcohol being prohibited in Islamic countries. It's a morality issue not a tax issue.

[KAT MOMMY]

Regardless if people want to admit it or not-dating in one way or the other is prostitution. No one wants to date a "broke man" and the concept of getting something for nothng is all over the place. So to shortstop all the games and not waste time might as well put it out there in the open--Live and Direct!

 

Way to go CG!

[CaptainPlanet]

So true,

 

I worked in the back of a pizza shop when I was a kid, I worked with a girl who after finishing highschool she became a stripper. She is about to buy an apartment in the docklands (very expensive trendy area of melbourne), is already a home owner with a small mortgage and has put herself through university. I fail to see how she is a victim through all of this.

 

She is much more wealthy than I would say any young person who had not chosen to be a prostitute, and who has gone down the University path.

 

Keep in mind realestate in any major Australian city is hurrendously expensive.

[Shiranai]

I have nothing to say since the guys said everything I wanted to say.

 

I still support LEGAL prostitution.